The holocaust industry? [Archive]

Brenus

11-11-2007, 10:11

Difficult subject: No, money won’t compensate… But in our societies it is the only way to recognise a lost…

Few years ago, I spoke with a French woman who was deported and worked in German Factories during WW2. She got 15.000 DEM from some company for three years of forced labour… And she was not a deportee. She was taken by force and sent to Germany as labourer. Now, 15.000 DEM for 3 years of work is not so much. Living in Yugoslavia during the war, she was happy for the money but her Yugoslav husband (she met him in Germany, reason why she lived in Croatia / Yugoslavia after the war) who died before these compensations never got his… So, the German Company, de facto, saved a lot of money in delaying the payments…
Should it be put in rest? I don’t know. Yes, Germany paid the price in heavy bombardments, losses of lives, lost territories etc… But the crime was immense…

Lord Winter

11-11-2007, 10:24

Fragony

11-11-2007, 10:36

Apart from the emotional and financial burden on the most gentle and civilised people of europe, the germans, I can't shake the feeling that this has nothing to do with the holocaust and everything with the money and that this is nothing more then cheap exploitation of every inch of guilt there is to be found. Israel has little interest in taking care of survivers, or as it seems, has every interest in not taking care of survivers because germans can't say no because of their history, it strikes me as perverted and unfair.

Beirut

11-11-2007, 13:21

The Jews who were victimized and survived should be allowed a fair settlement. If that means more cash today, so be it. We Canadians are still paying for the brutal treatment of the native peoples of my country by previous generations and I don't mind a bit. It's the cost of civilization.

As for Israel asking for money, forget it. First off, Israel didn't even exist during the war, how can it ask for reparations? Also, Israel's future first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion, said during the Holocaust, "The Jews of Europe are not my concern", and made similar statements about the Jewish children dying in the Holocaust. He made a point of disassociating the future state with what was happening in Europe. As well, future PMs of Israel were killing British soldiers and committing terrorist acts against Allied troops while Britain was at war with Germany. These future Israeli leaders were doing the Nazi's work for them. If Menachim Begin's son or Yitshak Shamir's daughter want survivor's benefits from the Bundeswehr, fine, but Isreal itself should not get one cent.

Fragony

11-11-2007, 13:33

Alledgedly said, carefull there, there are a few nice one's of lion of zion Sharon as well that could never be proved. Shouldn't be looking at Israel when it comes to the holocaust because it indeed didn't exist so better just don't.

Agree though, not a cent to Israel completily unrelated, but I am a bit conflicted about the claims and the moral grounds.

Shahed

11-11-2007, 13:55

Fragony is that a Viagra ad in your sig ? LOL, it sure looks like it & it's cool.

ICantSpellDawg

11-11-2007, 14:01

63 billion dollars spent on holocaust reparations already?

So much for not asking for war reparations this time around.

Fragony

11-11-2007, 14:19

Fragony is that a Viagra ad in your sig ? LOL, it sure looks like it & it's cool.

Actually relation-therapy but it's all in the eye of the beholder I guess ~;)

Shahed

11-11-2007, 14:23

HAHA! Cool.

Innocentius

11-11-2007, 15:26

Really, I don't think anyone should be compensated by money. If they could get surviving SS-officers to apologize (which I doubt they'll do), then that's fine, but money isn't the way to solve this - mental scars can't be healed with money. Today's Germans are not guilty for what their parents and grandparents did, and all these apologies etc. for what happened long ago (sometimes centuries ago; I might be wrong, but I think both the Norwegians and us Swedes have apologized to Britain, Ireland and France for the Viking raids) are just silly. Unless you were there and took part in it, you shouldn't have to pay anyone anything.

Shahed

11-11-2007, 15:43

The problem is if you don't apologise, people resent you. Look in Asia, a lot of Chinese & Koreans still resent the Japanese because they still won't accept complete responsibility for their actions in Korea & China. Worse, the Japs are still racists against the Koreans in Japan.

A state apology is the first step in mending relations. Money helps to silence dissent and opposition. It also pays for future generations to better themselves, so ofc everyone wants money. Money is also in question because the Third Reich conficated all the possesions of the Jews. So ofc those possessions have to be repaid (and most probably are), with all financial interest. All psychological and physical harm must also be compensated. It's natural that people will ask this. Imagine for a minute, someone kills your entire family, puts you in a concentration camp and then you get freed, and that nation is militarily defeated. Ofc you will ask for money since you have the power now. In that respect one can say it is an industry. They'll keep asking money as long as it's feasible to get it.

Having said that, I think the war is long over and the Germans need to take their rightful place as a powerful leadership in Europe. They have no reason to be ashamed of their past, provided they acknowledge it and recognise exactly what happened and what their nation did (which most Germans do).

Was it wrong to kill all those Jews. IMO yes it was wrong. Was it wrong for Germany to attack the Allies ? IMO no it was not wrong, Germany was only doing what the allies did themselves, trying to build an Empire.

It's always wrong for "them" to do it and right for "us"to do the same. Look at nuclear weapons, "we" can have them but "they" cannot. That's the way it is. We don't want to share what we have, and this gives rise to conflict, justified conflict, as every nation has a right to self determination and self development, economically, militarily & politically.

Geoffrey S

11-11-2007, 16:37

I think, by and large, Germany has shown clearly enough that it's thoroughly against its actions in WW2 and has in the last sixty years more than redeemed itself. Enough is enough.

Innocentius

11-11-2007, 17:52

Was it wrong to kill all those Jews. IMO yes it was wrong. Was it wrong for Germany to attack the Allies ? IMO no it was not wrong, Germany was only doing what the allies did themselves, trying to build an Empire.

Now, I'm no expert when it comes to WWII-history, but did the Germans attack the Allies? As far as I know they invaded Poland while everyone just sat back and watched, when people started to realise that the Germans meant business, the allied coalition was formed. I'm sure there's at least one WWII-freak here (there's always one) who can bring clarity to the situation.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

11-11-2007, 17:59

I am paying today for something my people (not my ancestors, mind you...) did over sixty years ago? That's disgusting. What's even more disgusting is that these people are milking the cow all they can. It's not about compensation, it's about getting whatever money they can from people who didn't do anything, just because we still feel guilty. The sad thing is that it's working.

They completely ignore the fact that many who died in the Holocaust were German. Just because they are Israeli citizens now does not give Israel the right to demand compensation. They should pay for their own damn citizens. That's why Israel was created as a state, was it not? As a homeland for the Jews?

We paid them decades ago, when we should have. They got our money. They should have collected their compensation earlier. Heck, they probably already have money that the German government has given them. This isn't compensation - this is extortion.

Excuse my hard-line views on this, but when there are so many things Germany needs, like countering unemployment, especially in the former East Germany, why are we giving money to people we (as in the current generation) did nothing to?

EDIT: Here you are:

Paying for Death and Suffering
Compensation paid by the Federal Republic of Germany to victims of the Nazi regime € bn
Final Federal Compensation Law 44.54
Retrospective payments for hardship cases 2.78
Compensation for stolen property 2.02
Payments made to the state of Israel 1.53
Special funds of Germany's federal states for individual cases 1.53
Payments made to other countries 1.46
Miscellaneous payments 6.80
The "Remembrance, Responsibility and Future" Foundation (payments to former forced laborers) 2.56
TOTAL 63.22 BILLION Euro

You got your money. Leave us alone!

EDIT: In agreement with Husar's post below, I also do not feel guilty for what happened. The problem is that I feel that one of the following is in play:
A) Our government, for whatever reason, feels guilty.
B) We cannot reject payment for fear of being accused of being anti-Semetic.
C) A combination of the two.

woad&fangs

11-11-2007, 18:24

Does anyone but me find it ironic that Hitler accused the Jews of being responsible for Germany's economic woes and now they are demanding enormous sums of money because of what he did to them?

Why don't they demand reparations for the Spanish Inquisition while they are at it.

The Jews weren't the only ones that were killed during the Holocaust. But do you see any communists or homosexuals demanding payment?

Whacker

11-11-2007, 18:47

A few things.

First, I roundly detest the term "Holocaust". Whenever I hear people speak of it, it invariably refers only to the Jewish portion of the 11 million deaths caused in Nazi Germany's camps. It greatly cheapens the enormity of what happened by excluding the other 5 million individuals from the scope simply because they weren't Jewish. I'll stop here.

Second, there comes a point of limitation. Yes, victims of crimes such as this scope deserve to be put back on their feet and then some to provide reasonable compensation for damages. It should also be done soon and right, so that it doesn't need to be revisited. If it's not done right, then revisiting it in a reasonable amount of time (decade or two) is fair and should be done.

However...

In my mind this applies to the victims and their immediate surviving relatives who were alive DURING the criminal act. This does not apply to grandchildren, great-grandchildren, 4th removed cousins, etc etc. Coming back and demanding something 60 years later is beyond what is reasonable, and based on the article posted by Frag this smacks to me of golddigging. After so long has passed, there comes a point at which the surviving generations must move on, and recognize that they must work toward making their way by their own labor. I do not stand up daily and demand wages due to my grandfather that weren't paid by former employers (a stretch, not crime related, but true story).

Victims should be compensated and restored to their former statuses. But the son should NOT bear the sins of the father, nor should the grandsons, or great-grandsons, etc.

Fragony

11-11-2007, 19:27

Innocentius

11-11-2007, 19:40

First, I roundly detest the term "Holocaust". Whenever I hear people speak of it, it invariably refers only to the Jewish portion of the 11 million deaths caused in Nazi Germany's camps. It greatly cheapens the enormity of what happened by excluding the other 5 million individuals from the scope simply because they weren't Jewish. I'll stop here.

As far as I know, 6 million Jews died in the concentration camps, and another 5 million people of different ethnic minorities as well, making the total number 11 million people.

Fragony

11-11-2007, 19:53

As far as I know, 6 million Jews died in the concentration camps,

concentration camps about 1,2 million officially

Watch 'Shoah' , best documentory ever about it

Husar

11-11-2007, 19:57

I said it before and I'll say it again, I don't feel guilty in the slightest.
If the government wants to spend money on this, fine, just another waste of cash among many, they raise taxes anyway. :sweatdrop:
I'm not really enraged but if I were asked for money directly I'd probably just laugh.

Brenus

11-12-2007, 00:19

Perhaps we didn’t read the same article. What I read was a direct victim who escaped the slaughter asking for compensations because his family was killed. Well, we can argue that being a survivor he is not allowed for compensations because compensations are for the victims of a crime, not the ones who escape. He survived so that is enough…

Is it what people are saying?

Now, what I will write is not how I feel always. But, sometimes, during my professional life, I had to cross a tunnel build between Germany and Austria on the blood of the deportees. I had to participate in a ceremony in a Concentration Camp long time ago. So, I can tell you, when I walked in the streets between the burned walls of Oradour sur Glane, or when I learn from the Gypsies of Croatia what happened to them, sometimes I think Germany never paid enough for this crime. When walking along the banks of the Danube in Novi Sad, or in Budapest, you just remember what the Nazi did, and what the Germans allowed them to do, so pay for it. And be happy it is just money.
I don’t buy the Germans didn’t know what was happening. The prisoners were working outside. Witnesses describe how the Germans were spitting at them, denouncing them if and when necessary.

I can understand that the young Germans are fed-up about what their grand-parents did, and they are not willing to pay for ever. But here, we speak of a direct victim…
What I am speaking about is what the grand son of the victims is feeling… Don’t tell me you will laugh if a survivor of one of the greatest crime never invented asks for compensation… Because it was not only the camps, it was the systematic slaughtering of the Einsatz Commandos, and others more amateurish methods, we will never know the real numbers of victims.
There are no official numbers
The discussion about the number of victims is insane: what is the “acceptable” number? One million, two millions, half a million? Each of the victims had a personal story, they were individuals.

The holocaust was an industry. It made money. 15.000 DEM for 3 years of slavery and that is it? Are you sure?
Unfortunately there is no solution to heal the past, except time. And I think that for Germany to face time to time this kind of claim is a mild price to pay for what has been done, not on her name, but with her consent.
I would like to be able to say it is past, we are friend now etc. But it is more complex than that. Memory plays back.
Probably financial interests play in this… But victims are not always innocent, nice, modest and happy to have survived. But they were or are still victims.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

11-12-2007, 00:26

So, I can tell you, when I walked in the streets between the burned walls of Oradour sur Glane, or when I learn from the Gypsies of Croatia what happened to them, sometimes I think Germany never paid enough for this crime. When walking along the banks of the Danube in Novi Sad, or in Budapest, you just remember what the Nazi did, and what the Germans allowed them to do, so pay for it. And be happy it is just money.

And there's the thing. We didn't do it. Few to no people are alive that actually perpetrated the slaughter. It is not our fault, because we were not alive to do it. In addition, while I don't want to turn the debate in that direction, not every German knew what was happening - even most of the Wehrmacht didn't until the invasion of Russia. People did try to resist (Johannes Blaskowitz, for example). While there was undeniable anti-Semitism, the majority of people did not know. Even Britain did not know the extent until about 1942 or 1943.

The thing isn't that this man is asking for compensation, but that he has probably, at one point or another, recieved German money. We paid billions and billions to Holocaust survivors, and I honestly doubt he recieved nothing.

As above, what was done was not necessarily with the consent of Germany. Reading up on the subject, I'm sure you will see that many people did try to resist, from Generals to peasants, especially those of Prussian stock. Not everyone knew. I'm sorry that you don't buy that, but it's not as if there were signs at the intersection in town saying "Death Camp - Left, Five Miles". Forced labour and systematic execution are two very different things, with one being tolerated and one not, and one being seen on a regular basis and one not, and you're muddling the line. There is a distinction.

Seamus Fermanagh

11-12-2007, 00:53

Beirut:

At what point in the past do we draw a line and say this is the limit of responsibility?

Should Canada be responsible for the excesses of the early French settlers?

Should Canada be responsible for the excesses only following their independence?

Should Iceland be sued by whatever Amerinds were killed during the early Viking colonies of N.A.?

Am I responsible, financially, for the depradations wrought on the West Coast of the UK by my ancestors on my father's side [Piracy by Irish raiders against Welsh, Cornish, and Scottish targets as far back as the Mabinogi; I'm of half-Irish descent; surely some West-Country UK'er will step up to sue me!]?

Holocaust: The old testament biblical meaning for this term was of a religious offering totally consumed by fire. It is this reference, and the fact that the Jews were the largest religious group singled out by the Nazi's for their depredations, that makes this term so inextricably linked with the Jews murdered during that era.

The use of the term Holocaust in this context is not meant to discount, excuse, or minimize the suffering and loss of the millions of others summarily murdered or worked to death by the Nazis, the millions of others summarily executed or worked to death by the Soviets, the hundreds of thousands [millions?] raped, killed, or worked to death by the Imperial Japanese, or those killed in the thankfully far more infrequent acts of atrocity made by the other combatants of that war.

Beirut

11-12-2007, 00:57

I said it before and I'll say it again, I don't feel guilty in the slightest.

Nor should you. No German who was not there may be singled out and held to account for the sins of another generation.

But as a German, or a Canadian, we both bear the weight of the sins of our country as we must bear the responsibilty of being its citizens. It's not all cake and ice cream and government handouts.

Duty, honour, country. :canada: :germany:

Beirut

11-12-2007, 01:03

Beirut:

At what point in the past do we draw a line and say this is the limit of responsibility?

At least as long as there are people alive who suffered injustice. Longer if the injustices were of such a nature that entire peoples were harmed and those people still suffer as a result. Whether the form of government still exists that engaged in the persecution is relevant as well.

Each case must be judged upon its merits.

Husar

11-12-2007, 01:21

Nor should you. No German who was not there may be singled out and held to account for the sins of another generation.

But as a German, or a Canadian, we both bear the weight of the sins of our country as we must bear the responsibilty of being its citizens. It's not all cake and ice cream and government handouts.

Duty, honour, country. :canada: :germany:
Well, I said it's ok if they pay them with tax money, maybe it was a bit harsh to say that's a waste. :sweatdrop:

Papewaio

11-12-2007, 01:25

Victims should be compensated and restored to their former statuses. But the son should NOT bear the sins of the father, nor should the grandsons, or great-grandsons, etc.

Agree, with the caveat:
As long as the grandsons are gaining then they should be paying.

Shahed

11-12-2007, 01:25

There are still many people/s like that. Some Native Americans & Australian Aboriginals etc. Psychologically many of them are still suffering as is apparent in their behaviour, substance abuse and general degeneration (broadly speaking). In psychologcal terms these are lost peoples, who, if they are not helped medically and otherwise will continue to suffer.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

11-12-2007, 02:48

Sarmatian

11-12-2007, 05:40

Now, what I will write is not how I feel always. But, sometimes, during my professional life, I had to cross a tunnel build between Germany and Austria on the blood of the deportees. I had to participate in a ceremony in a Concentration Camp long time ago. So, I can tell you, when I walked in the streets between the burned walls of Oradour sur Glane, or when I learn from the Gypsies of Croatia what happened to them, sometimes I think Germany never paid enough for this crime. When walking along the banks of the Danube in Novi Sad, or in Budapest, you just remember what the Nazi did, and what the Germans allowed them to do, so pay for it. And be happy it is just money.

To be fair Brennus, crimes commited in Novi Sad and entire Backa region were done by Hungarians, not Germans. After occupation, Vojvodina was divided by three countries: Srem was under Croatian Ustashe regime, Backa under Hungary and Banat under German direct control, and there, in fact, was the smallest number of crimes. Srem under Ustashi got it the worst of course, but the fact is, before the war there was a large German population there. And from what I hear from the people who lived through that is that the Germans tried to help Serbs whenever they could. Ustahi would than mostly back of, because killing a German was a huge no-no. Unfortunately,they couldn't do much, but they did what they could to help their neighbours.

We can't really pin all the crimes on Germans. In fact, most crimes in ex-Yugoslavia were commited by Croats and Hungarians. Now, we can argue that they were under German influence and their allies, but Italian fascist didn't commit nearly as many crimes as those previously mentioned.

Serbian Germans did their best to help, and how where they repayed? They were deported to Germany. They had to leave the land where they lived for centuries. They did nothing wrong but still they had to leave. They payed for the crimes they didn't commit. Maybe it was the best in some perverted sort of way, because most of the people wouldn't be able to understand what they did, or wouldn't know about it, but it still is an injustice.

It's a fact that a lot of Germans payed for the crimes that not only they didn't commit, but also for those commited by other countries. That's not enough, so we are now gonna ask their children and grandchildren to pay? We are gonna fix one injustice by doing another one? That's what happened with denationalization law in Slovenia. Shortly after independence, they passed the law that all property that was nationalized during communism has to be returned to their pre-war owners. So, they were evicting people from their flats to return them. Ok, maybe they were theirs before, but what does it have to do with the people who are living in them now? They earned those flats with their sweat, and they payed for them, fair and square. But now they are getting evicted because a goverment fifty years ago confiscated those flats... It's another injustice.

So - no. Germany shouldn't pay anymore for ww2 crimes. It payed enough already. Maybe for some individual cases, but only for those who were directly involved, not for fathers/mothers/aunts...

Sorry if I bored you with this long post. (Brennus, only the first part was a response to you, the rest are my thoughts on the subject)

IrishArmenian

11-12-2007, 05:55

63 billion dollars spent on holocaust reparations already?

So much for not asking for war reparations this time around.
Sooooo, any of that money going to anyone else yet?:idea2:
They got 63 Billion American dollars and more land... we get...a cultural war (also being waged on Kurds and other minorities in Turkey), a national symbol just out of reach and extremely cold and bitter diplomatic relations. :wall: What happened?
It is quite a testament to German morals, how ashamed they are of something they personally did not do.

Mouzafphaerre

11-12-2007, 07:41

.

The Jews weren't the only ones that were killed during the Holocaust.
The problem is Gypsies -for instance- don't have a state terrorizing whatever lies around them, even within them, and at the same time crying about the Holocaust -nor do they have the economic power to draw/to be drawn by international powers to put it politely.

Like the hotel manager denying Nazis service, they're just buying more anti-Semitism. :no:
.

Mouzafphaerre

11-12-2007, 07:51

.

Kurds and other minorities in Turkey
Now there! :bobby2: Whatever the quasi-fascist state policies, the military cast and their corrupt feudal overlords does, Kurds cannot be called a minority. They are the co-founders of this country and should be treated accordingly.

Calling an ethnicity forming a third of the population with over 90% majority in a fourth of the country, regular intermarriages and widespread immigration notwithstanding, is just nonsense. They should be treated as the co-majority that they are, with their language being made official and all.

Sorry for the OT
.

Brenus

11-12-2007, 09:04

“Death Camp - Left, Five Miles”: No. It was dark black smoke. I read a lot of books about WW2, and yes, I did think the Germans ignored what was done in their names. However, when you analyse the facts:
- The prisoners / deportees were working in factories (as Siemens) and were mixed with ordinary workers. Their columns were marched through villages and urban centres…
- Multiples witnesses account of insults and death gestures from the population, denouncing to the guards a prisoner trying to drink in a fountain or eating some garbage on the road to forced labour or return…
- The reason evoked by some Germans defending their participation was “if I didn’t do it I would have finished in the Camps”.

“not every German knew what was happening”. Not every Germans, however, the total number of people involved in the process makes it impossible that a large majority knew. The fact is the Nazi system was efficient enough to kill every opponent and that fear was in every German life are good reason to understand why not so many didn’t resisted doesn’t and can’t hind the fact that the German population knew…

Yes, there were courageous Germans defying the Nazi Organisation, but they were students and finish very badly. No, the generals didn’t resist the order to kill Jews, Gypsies and others political opponents.

Oops, I have to go to work. I will develop later:sweatdrop:

Beirut

11-12-2007, 12:37

Now, Beirut, there is a distinction to make there. Canada's natives are still living on reservations, still have drug problems, still have land disputes, and the case in Ontario where there was a lack of clean water, or something to that effect.

On the other hand, Germany's Jews live just as well as everyone else, are integrated into society, do not live on reservations, and can access all the things other Germans can. ~:)

I don't think it's a question of German Jews, but of any Jewish survivors of the Holocaust. As I understand it, Montreal has the highest per capita of Holocaust survivors outside of Israel. So I guess some money would be coming this way.

HoreTore

11-12-2007, 13:36

To the german state, we're talking pocket lint money here. A few millions here and there isn't even worth mentioning. Just fork it over.

Husar

11-12-2007, 15:45

To the german state, we're talking pocket lint money here. A few millions here and there isn't even worth mentioning. Just fork it over.
You should've told them before they tricked my dad so that they could cut his retirement pay almost in half. :furious3:

And Brenus, you should also think about some high-profile resistance against Hitler, Wilhelm Canaris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris)(liked his movie biography a lot) and Dietrich Bonhoeffer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer) come to mind.
Yes, they probably knew about the horrible crimes and didn't got to protest on the streets but I think that would just have gotten them killed even earlier. The general population was apparently supporting Hitler, why that is, I don't understand, however, it's not really unique to us, there are lots of dictatorships where the general population is too afraid to rise and usually most attempts at organizing resistance are found and silenced by the secret service of such dictatorships. It probably coincides with the thread about darwinism as most Germans were probably just glad to survive themselves and didn't dare to oppose the SS because that was a very dangerous thing to do.

Let me say it like this, if someone hijacked your plane and had only one bullet, a mob could easily overthrow him but would you be willing to catch that bullet first? Maybe you would, but a lot of others probably wouldn't. :shrug:

Louis VI the Fat

11-12-2007, 16:34

Last Friday it was November 9th. A fateful day in German history. It was also exactly eightteen years to the day, 11-9-1989 / 11-9-2007, the Berlin Wall fell.

There are now adult, tax-paying Germans born after the fall of the wall. Make of it what you must in the context of this thread.

:sweatdrop:

Fragony

11-12-2007, 16:47

There are now adult, tax-paying Germans born

And I thought the claims were bad, poor lady's that got to hurt :no:

Mouzafphaerre

11-12-2007, 16:51

.
Let's please also keep in mind that even state oficials and military officers were not fully aware of the holocaust, if its dimentions, let alone the commoners. It was a "project" carefully undertaken by "elites" and evidences were attempted to destroy.

I'm not talking about the segregation, ghettos, bans & arrests etc. Just the massacres themselves.
.

Husar

11-12-2007, 17:11

There are now adult, tax-paying Germans born after the fall of the wall. Make of it what you must in the context of this thread.

:sweatdrop:
Yes, i know, we payed the Russians to give to us what they destroyed and now we pay to build it up again with tax money, while we leave the West to rot. :dizzy2:

And Kohl could successfully protect his Stasi-documents from being read. :wall:

KukriKhan

11-12-2007, 17:18

A side observation: whether for or against, guilty or not, one thing seems true: It's not easy being German in 2007. Especially if you were born after about 1960.

A question: The OP article mentions that the sons and grandsons of 1940's-era Wehrmacht soldiers receive a (monthly?) stipend - is that true? It seems to be the basis (from my reading) of this 'new' group claiming equal or equivalent compensation.

Geoffrey S

11-12-2007, 17:21

To the german state, we're talking pocket lint money here. A few millions here and there isn't even worth mentioning. Just fork it over.
People say that about more than enough things already, adds up rather quickly; besides, I don't really buy the idea of throwing money at a problem to make it disappear.

FactionHeir

11-12-2007, 17:27

You should've told them before they tricked my dad so that they could cut his retirement pay almost in half. :furious3:

Agreed. My parents immigrated to Germany from abroad and thus also paid in taxes to repay the (rightful?) claimants. I don't think we had anything to do with WWII directly or indirectly coming from outside Europe. So my belief is that only those companies (not individuals - most of them are dead) who are still benefitting should be paying (if at all - its been over 60 years hence!).

Yes, they probably knew about the horrible crimes and didn't got to protest on the streets but I think that would just have gotten them killed even earlier. The general population was apparently supporting Hitler, why that is, I don't understand, however, it's not really unique to us, there are lots of dictatorships where the general population is too afraid to rise and usually most attempts at organizing resistance are found and silenced by the secret service of such dictatorships. It probably coincides with the thread about darwinism as most Germans were probably just glad to survive themselves and didn't dare to oppose the SS because that was a very dangerous thing to do.

I think you could draw a faint parallel to the current wars. Most Americans are against the war, but the politicians most seem to like it and so do the big companies and businesses. The average American still in some ways supports the war indirectly by "showing support to the troops dying for our freedom and superiority/victory". I don't think it was much different back then. Troops obey orders, citizens support troops, government is happy. Concentration camps certainly are worse than secret CIA prisons and Guatanamo (and the other busted prisons who still remain open to date), but the response is likely the same: Initial Outrage but as time goes on, it becomes "normal" and "tolerated". National Security and its enforcement and all. Fear factor back in those days of course also played a role.

Conclusion: Have the companies that benefitted from forced labor pay out the full amount owed (to those surviving or their direct descendants only), but private individuals have paid enough in taxes already and 95% have had nothing to do with the war. The government shouldn't keep using tax money from individuals to pay claimants in the second, third, or even fourth generation. Saying that "I inherited my grandfather's depression even though he was dead by the time I was born/got out of childhood" is nothing but a scam.

Ser Clegane

11-12-2007, 17:52

A question: The OP article mentions that the sons and grandsons of 1940's-era Wehrmacht soldiers receive a (monthly?) stipend - is that true? It seems to be the basis (from my reading) of this 'new' group claiming equal or equivalent compensation.

Not completely sure about that. I can definitely say that I, as the grandson of a fallen Wehrmacht soldier did not receive any money (nor would I want any to tell the truth).
I assume that the government paid a pension for my father (or rather his mosther) until he was grown up ("Kriegswaisenrente") and that my grandmother also received a pension ("Kriegswitwenrente"). I would have to check that though...

KukriKhan

11-12-2007, 18:56

Don't go to any trouble Ser Clegane; I think your personal experience is enough to posit that some kind of compensation plan was (and probably, is) in place to provide some level of care for the survivors of fallen german soldiers.

So the guys who want more money are basing their claim on the assertion that the entire Wehrmacht, and by extension, the entire population of Germany, for generations to come, should compensate them, as survivors of the victims, at the same or similar level as the survivors of the dead soldiers.

Fine, I say. Seems a reasonable attempt at parity.

EXCEPT:

There is a plan already in place (see this 62-page PDF (http://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/lang_de/nn_4394/nsc_true/DE/Finanz__und__Wirtschaftspolitik/Vermoegensrecht__und__Entschaedigungen/Kriegsfolgen__und__Wiedergutmachung/002,templateId=raw,property=publicationFile.pdf) of the 2006 english-version of the current iteration of the plan), a plan negotiated in good faith on behalf of all parties. Claiming that the amounts were not enough, 60 years after the fact, should hold no water.

Claimants, and potential claimants, should scour that plan and find the clause that best suits them, and apply.

And if Israeli citizens live in poverty, I put that problem at the feet of their government, not Germany's.

My :2cents:

Edit to add: If a new agreement is sought, the first step would be un-doing the previous agreement, which, it seems to me, would entail refunding to Germany all compensation money paid out so far. THEN hammer out a new agreement/payment paradigm.

OK, so now it's my :4cents:

Brenus

11-12-2007, 23:04

Samartian, I do agree that the Nazi allies didn’t really felt all the guilt which was put only on the Germans. Hungarians, Austrians, Bulgarians and Rumanians got it light because some were needed as neutral and the others because Communist Period washed all responsibilities and guilt.
The Sanctity of Stepinac is one of the examples about what happens when politic played.
However, to pretend that the German of Yugoslavia did help the Serbs is quite exaggerate… What I heard and read go mostly against this opinion…

“Maybe you would, but a lot of others probably wouldn't”: Well, your list is impressive: 2 persons. You could have added Willie Brandt.

However, the Germans resistance against Hitler was and is still seen as traitors by most of the nowadays Germans. Why? Because most of them were communists, the National Bolsheviks… From 1933 to the beginning of the war 220,000 Germans, men and women were sentenced of prison and concentration camps. You could be proud of the National revolutionary like Ernst Junger and his brother if you don’t like communists. Why this silence: because somewhere they betrayed…
So some did resist. Germans. I don’t mention the ones who were more against the defeat than against Nazism…

“Let's please also keep in mind that even state officials and military officers were not fully aware of the holocaust, if its dimensions, let alone the commoners. It was a "project" carefully undertaken by "elites" and evidences were attempted to destroy”
Complement to the Directive 33: “The troops available for securing the conquered Eastern territories will, in view of the size of this area, be sufficient for their duties only if the occupying power meets resistance, not by legal punishment of the guilty, but by striking such terror into the population that it loses all will to resist.”
That was sent to all armies… Difficult to ignore…
Buidings, railways specielly designed, all this was too much to hind.

“Yes, I know, we paid the Russians to give to us what they destroyed”: Err, I am not sure of this…

You still have companies (banks) refusing to give back what was confiscated by the Nazi. Some are still making money with it. So why survivors, even greedy one, if their claim is valid, shouldn’t be compensate?

Evil_Maniac From Mars

11-12-2007, 23:33

A question: The OP article mentions that the sons and grandsons of 1940's-era Wehrmacht soldiers receive a (monthly?) stipend - is that true? It seems to be the basis (from my reading) of this 'new' group claiming equal or equivalent compensation.

I have an aunt whose father was killed in the East, and a great-uncle who died in the east, and their respective families recieve nothing, as far as I know, though they probably did during the war. Maybe it's just for people of a certain income bracket, or maybe she keeps it quiet, but I don't think that's like her.

Brenus:

I do agree that the Nazi allies didn’t really felt all the guilt which was put only on the Germans. Hungarians, Austrians, Bulgarians and Rumanians got it light because some were needed as neutral and the others because Communist Period washed all responsibilities and guilt.
The Sanctity of Stepinac is one of the examples about what happens when politic played.
However, to pretend that the German of Yugoslavia did help the Serbs is quite exaggerate… What I heard and read go mostly against this opinion…
For the most part, I agree with this sentiment. With the last sentence, some Germans (probably devout Catholics) undoubtedly did, but most probably did nothing, fair enough.

However, the Germans resistance against Hitler was and is still seen as traitors by most of the nowadays Germans. Why? Because most of them were communists, the National Bolsheviks… From 1933 to the beginning of the war 220,000 Germans, men and women were sentenced of prison and concentration camps. You could be proud of the National revolutionary like Ernst Junger and his brother if you don’t like communists. Why this silence: because somewhere they betrayed…
So some did resist. Germans. I don’t mention the ones who were more against the defeat than against Nazism…
The military was the main and most organized resistance against Hitler in Germany, and you can't call the German military communist. You also cannot say that they were more against the defeat - resistance started in 1938, when commanders were worried that Hitler was becoming too carried away. I don't see any of the resistance members as traitors, except for the hardcore communists, who would have turned Germany into a system just as bad as Hitler's.

Complement to the Directive 33: “The troops available for securing the conquered Eastern territories will, in view of the size of this area, be sufficient for their duties only if the occupying power meets resistance, not by legal punishment of the guilty, but by striking such terror into the population that it loses all will to resist.”
That was sent to all armies… Difficult to ignore…
Buidings, railways specielly designed, all this was too much to hind.
Alright, two things here:
A) The Wehrmacht knowing does not mean the people knew.
B) The Wehrmacht did not, as a whole, participate in anti-Jewish (specifically) murders. While it is undoubtedly true that there were murders by the Wehrmacht, murders by the SS were the only ones that were significant, IE; larger than those by the Soviets, and later on the British and American (if you would like examples, a PM please, as this is probably getting off-topic).

You still have companies (banks) refusing to give back what was confiscated by the Nazi. Some are still making money with it. So why survivors, even greedy one, if their claim is valid, shouldn’t be compensate?
A) These are mainly Swiss banks, to my knowledge, where secrecy is paramount...but what about IBM, and American company? Research their involvement in the Holocaust.
B) What if they have already been compensated. Remember, 63 BILLION Euro.

My final point is that we are not here to debate the justification of the Holocaust, and who did it, but whether the payments are still just. I do not believe this, as I believe the victims have recieved all the monetary compensation they should, unless an individual can prove they have recieved no compensation.

PanzerJaeger

11-12-2007, 23:42

That was sent to all armies… Difficult to ignore…
Buidings, railways specielly designed, all this was too much to hide.

Not really.

Before the war there were large efforts made to make the concentration camp system seem far more docile. Add to that the fact that the only news Germans received was from the propaganda ministry. Most Germans did not and could not know what was going on.

The building of a railroad certainly does not denote the creation of a death camp, not to mention the rather remote locations of the camps in relation to most of the population.

Louis VI the Fat

11-12-2007, 23:57

My two cents:

'We didn't know it' - I don't believe that. What I can believe is 'We didn't realise it'. I can believe that many Germans had lost all sense of perspective, had become carried away, misled themselves, became shut off to the nature of extreme violence. Nations can lose it, like people can.

I think a good deal of them woke up with a brutal shock, with embarrassment even, when they came to their senses.

Tribesman

11-13-2007, 00:12

Most Germans did not and could not know what was going on.

Bollox , they had been fed with the propoganda which you say was their only news sorce , they had been told which people were to be eradicated as national policy , they witnessed the policy of extermination of undesirables as it was implemented within germany on german citizens , to say that they couldn't or didn't know is absolute bollox .

Husar

11-13-2007, 01:23

Well, your list is impressive: 2 persons. You could have added Willie Brandt.
I could have added even more I guess but I never researched the topic, just heard about them here or there, thus my impressive list. :dizzy2:

However, the Germans resistance against Hitler was and is still seen as traitors by most of the nowadays Germans.
:laugh4:

You could be proud of the National revolutionary like Ernst Junger and his brother if you don’t like communists. Why this silence: because somewhere they betrayed…
Or maybe I just never heard of that guy before or simply forgot what I heard.

“Yes, I know, we paid the Russians to give to us what they destroyed”: Err, I am not sure of this…
I was referring to the reunification of Germany in 1990. :idea2:

Ice

11-13-2007, 01:47

Evil_Maniac From Mars

11-13-2007, 02:09

'We didn't know it' - I don't believe that. What I can believe is 'We didn't realise it'. I can believe that many Germans had lost all sense of perspective, had become carried away, misled themselves, became shut off to the nature of extreme violence. Nations can lose it, like people can.

I think a good deal of them woke up with a brutal shock, with embarrassment even, when they came to their senses.
That could explain some of the population. Some were probably as you described, some probably just did not know.

Bollox , they had been fed with the propoganda which you say was their only news sorce , they had been told which people were to be eradicated as national policy , they witnessed the policy of extermination of undesirables as it was implemented within germany on german citizens , to say that they couldn't or didn't know is absolute bollox .
I really don't want to argue with you, but deportation and forced labour was what the people thought was going on, for the most part. While they are not admirable things, they are different than death camps. While it was implemented in Germany...

Before the war there were large efforts made to make the concentration camp system seem far more docile. Add to that the fact that the only news Germans received was from the propaganda ministry. Most Germans did not and could not know what was going on.

The building of a railroad certainly does not denote the creation of a death camp, not to mention the rather remote locations of the camps in relation to most of the population.
While I do not generally agree with PJ's sentiments, QFT.

Tribesman

11-13-2007, 02:28

I really don't want to argue with you, but deportation and forced labour was what the people thought was going on, for the most part. While they are not admirable things, they are different than death camps. While it was implemented in Germany...

The policy of eradication of "undesirables" who didn't fit the criteria for the master race was something the regime had been broadcasting to the population since they came to power , those policies were implimented in Germany itself before the war , they were no secret .
The exterminations of the hospital patients to make room for the war wounded led many to believe that some of the war wounded themselves would also be exterminated since they no longer measured up to the master race specifications .
For this to be a widespread thought then how on earth could it not be a widespread thought that other people who for years had been depicted as not meeting the master race specification would be treated any differently ?

Seamus Fermanagh

11-13-2007, 02:37

Papewaio

11-13-2007, 02:45

I think the German people had a much better understanding of what was happening.

Crystal night for starters and then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen

Check the picture for an understanding of the range of people present at the massacres... for instance the bored teenager watching. It is hardly likely that this is the only time a teenager was present, particularly as he seems bored by the whole affair. And the idea that every single one of these people never talked about it to family or friends, that none of the neighbours knew what was happening... stretches the imagination somewhat.

For a sense of the magnitude:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/jager.html

So it was wide scale in which units and ages were involved and also massive in scale. I think it would be very hard for people not to know what was happening. They may have told themselves that it wasn't to keep themselves sane.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

11-13-2007, 03:55

I think I'll have to agree with Tribes on this one.

The slave laborers whol mingled in some instances with German workers were often at or near starvation and anyone even casually passing by the concentration camps would have to have been aware that the treatment was woefully substandard.

"Not Knowing" they were killing the "undesirables" would have required an ACTIVE effort at self deception. Now, you can make a case that people are good at self-deception and were making that effort to stay sane, but that's not the passive lack of knowledge that's been suggested.

You can talk to parents who are "stunned" to find that their kids have used drugs -- only to find that they've been engaged in a pretty active effort to "explain away" signs and indicators that that any reasonable assessor would have explained as drug use.

I don't think that kind of "not knowing" is quite the same.
Perhaps I have not been clear. I have stated that while some German people of course, knew, PJ is right that there was a massive amount of deception as to what exactly was going on. For example...

-If the German people knew, and it was regularily broadcast to the population (deportations and making other races "sub-races" were broadcast, but Holocaust reports were not, as the Nazi government did try to cover it up), then why didn't the British, French, and Canadians accept Jews on this basis? Why didn't the heirarchy know anything until a Polish spy told them in the '40s? It's not as if there was no intelligence to this level in Germany, and wouldn't a spy, who listened to the radio, have realised and reported this?

-As an eyewitness testimony, my grandfather worked on navigation for Luftwaffe aircraft during the war. He was fairly anti-Nazi (he was very much against the war, which is why he used that as an alternative to fighting), and worked for MI6 after the war. Yet, he always claimed he knew of slave labour, and almost everyone did, but he knew of little more than deportations and occasional executions, not systematic mass murder.

PanzerJaeger

11-13-2007, 06:05

Bollox , they had been fed with the propoganda which you say was their only news sorce , they had been told which people were to be eradicated as national policy , they witnessed the policy of extermination of undesirables as it was implemented within germany on german citizens , to say that they couldn't or didn't know is absolute bollox .

Complete revisionism.

Show me where the Nazi regime told the german people they were killing Jews. I can show you where they made great efforts to show the opposite in propaganda films about the camps.

People must remember the scale of the war. The Einsatzgruppen were a tiny % of the German military and to draw conclusions from a picture is ridiculous.

People also must remember that in many places Jews were sent to ghettos and concentration camps before the death camps, away from their German neighbors. From there, their movements and conditions would be very hard to know in a totalitarian state. And speaking of death camps, they were certainly not advertised.

Also, in many cases Jews were executed away from their neighbors for being "criminals" and bholsheviks.

Revisionism and Hollywood have really distorted history. Germans certainly knew that Jews were not being treated well, but to say that the vast majority of Germans knew about the organized genocide does not hold up. Everything here seems to be anecdotal evidence. (Look at the horrible pictures!)

Put yourself in a German's shoes. Most who were not in the military did not travel outside of their immediate location. The only information they got was from German propaganda. (Show me where they advertised the death camps tribesy) Knowing that the local Jews were taken away does not mean they knew what happened to them. As I said, there was an effort made to show the camps in a better light.

Ser Clegane

11-13-2007, 09:04

[However, the Germans resistance against Hitler was and is still seen as traitors by most of the nowadays Germans.

I assume that you are able to back up this assertion a little bit?
Personally I do not know any people who make statements that indicate such a view on the resistance - apart from some people in their 80s and of course neo-Nazis.

Certainly you do not consider these groups to represent "most of the nowadays Germans"?

On the issue of "they did not know" - that might be true in a sense that a majority did not know the details of what was going on.
But it's very hard to believe that most people were unaware that something was going on - more likely the majority simply decided that it would be better to try to only acknowledge what could be seen in the open and to not further think in detail about what might happen to the people to "disappeared" or were deported

Tribesman

11-13-2007, 09:08

Complete revisionism.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: another apology for your heroes of the reich:thumbsdown:

Knowing that the local Jews were taken away does not mean they knew what happened to them.
The Jews were rounded up like the other undesirables , the other undesirables who were a dilution of the master-race had been openly exterminated , how on earth could anyone say they thought the Jews were being treated differently just because the german town crematoria were no longer burning truck loads of bodies

Fragony

11-13-2007, 09:56

PanzerJaeger

11-13-2007, 10:14

On the issue of "they did not know" - that might be true in a sense that a majority did not know the details of what was going on.
But it's very hard to believe that most people were unaware that something was going on - more likely the majority simply decided that it would be better to try to only acknowledge what could be seen in the open and to not further think in detail about what might happen to the people to "disappeared" or were deported

Again, it must be said that the Nazis made great efforts (even into 44 and 45) to conceal what was really going on in the camps, and completely denied the existence of death camps. Remember, concentration camps - to the Germans - were not what we see them as today. (Theresienstadt anyone?)

It is also worth noting that Japanese people were taken away by the US government and put into camps. The US population had much the same reaction that the German one did.. passive acceptance and trust in the government.

PanzerJaeger

11-13-2007, 10:23

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: another apology for your heroes of the reich:thumbsdown:

The Jews were rounded up like the other undesirables , the other undesirables who were a dilution of the master-race had been openly exterminated , how on earth could anyone say they thought the Jews were being treated differently just because the german town crematoria were no longer burning truck loads of bodies

Predictable and pathetic. Just avoid the hard questions with all your smilies.. :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

If the Nazis were telling the German populace that they were killing the Jews, why then did they take such efforts to make the camps seem like nice, comfortable villages? Why were the existence of death camps a closely guarded secret? If it was such common knowledge, can you provide some Nazi propaganda that tells of the gas chambers, because I can provide you with plenty that shows happy, healthy Jews having fun in their new villages.

Undoubtedly some people knew... high rankers, guards, ect. However, in a society where the only news is government issued, mail from the front is censored, and people aren't well traveled, I dont know how it would be possible for a majority of the population to know that Auschwitz-Birkenau or other such places existed and what happened there... and survivor accounts back that up.

Tribesman

11-13-2007, 10:32

Italy is currently 'relocating' Romanians, all the people see is them leaving. Illigal immigrants are put onto the plane on daily bases also from the UK, they could be flown everywhere without you knowing. If someone told you that they were going to a camp where they will be murdered it would probably result in excessive smily usage.

If the Italian government had been putting out information that illegal immigrants must be eradicated from society , and had put out information that other groups had to be eradicated from society .
If it had openly exterminated the other groups why do you think people would think any differently when the illegal immigrants got rounded up .

It is also worth noting that Japanese people were taken away by the US government and put into camps. The US population had much the same reaction that the German one did.. passive acceptance and trust in the government.
The big difference Panzer is that the US government had not publicised a long standing policy of racial purification through extermination aimed at groups of people in which the Japanese would be included .

Fragony

11-13-2007, 10:41

If the Italian government had been putting out information that illegal immigrants must be eradicated from society , and had put out information that other groups had to be eradicated from society .
If it had openly exterminated the other groups why do you think people would think any differently when the illegal immigrants got rounded up.

The regime wasn't exactly low on draconian rethoric, when you still wake up in the morning you tend to think of the best scenario. Racist policy yeah, executions yeah, but what can you do? Would you honestly expect something of this scale?

By the way, if it wasn't very carefully and secretly orchestrated, then why didn't the enigmadevice pick up something about it?

Tribesman

11-13-2007, 11:11

Would you honestly expect something of this scale?

Ah there you have it Frag ...scale .
Massive scale , the policy involved all military formations , all aspects of the transport industry , all aspects of the war industry , all branches of the medical services , all levels of government , judiciary , law enforcement , even all levels of the agriculture and forestry business . That links to pretty much the entire population doesn't it .

Predictable and pathetic.
A nice summation of the status of Nazi apologists .

Fragony

11-13-2007, 11:23

Ah there you have it Frag ...scale .
Massive scale , the policy involved all military formations , all aspects of the transport industry , all aspects of the war industry , all branches of the medical services , all levels of government , judiciary , law enforcement , even all levels of the agriculture and forestry business . That links to pretty much the entire population doesn't it .

Makes the surprise to find exterminationcamps all the more surprising.... I simpy cannot believe that you think everybody knew about it that's insane.

good docu;

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/104-8279062-2642324?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=shoah&x=0&y=0

PanzerJaeger

11-13-2007, 11:24

Ah there you have it Frag ...scale .
Massive scale , the policy involved all military formations , all aspects of the transport industry , all aspects of the war industry , all branches of the medical services , all levels of government , judiciary , law enforcement , even all levels of the agriculture and forestry business . That links to pretty much the entire population doesn't it .

Completely untrue. All aspects? Are you just making things up now? :inquisitive:

And you conveniently are not specific as to level. In your skewed perception, does the knowledge of a high level German general implicate his entire command structure? The ordinary soldiers?

Your silence on my above questions is deadening..

Tribesman

11-13-2007, 12:09

Completely untrue. All aspects? Are you just making things up now?
Are you reaching into the realms of the deniers now Panzer .

And you conveniently are not specific as to level. In your skewed perception, does the knowledge of a high level German general implicate his entire command structure? The ordinary soldiers?

When during the war years "my opposition" was written did the author get his information on the executions of Jews from high level generals or ordinary soldiers in germany itself ?

Your silence on my above questions is deadening..
unplug your ears then , or is it your mind that is closed on this issue ?:inquisitive:
Now then panzer , the orders for extermination , classifications for extemination , co-operation with the extermination squads , supply and accomodation of the extermination squads were they passed down to all levels of the military as direct orders ? Were the starvation measures in the East passed down to all levels of the military in direct orders ?

Your silence on the question of the scale , complicity and extent of the measures throughout the reich is deafening , though not in the least bit surprising .

By the way, if it wasn't very carefully and secretly orchestrated, then why didn't the enigmadevice pick up something about it?

Good question Frag , but how can you say that enigma/ultra didn't pick it up , the entire program was completely classified until the mid 70s , most of its work and intercepts are still classified and will remain so for another 40 years .
However Britain acknowledged the Jewish exterminations as early as 1940 , it provided evidence to the public in 1941 in worldwide broadcasts , America officially accepted the evidence in 1942 .

Fragony

11-13-2007, 12:20

Probably nuclair tech related, doubt they would they would pass the chance to use it in the Nuremberg trials. But ok, can't be sure. Still strange though.

R'as al Ghul

11-13-2007, 12:31

I think it's neither true that only an elite knew about the death camps nor is it true that all of the Germans knew about them.
A lot more people knew (had to know) about it than have cared to admit.
It's hard to ignore the fact that your neighbors are taken away, that you can take over the once jewish store, the bricks that smashed the glass of the storefronts, the trains full of people, the work camps, the stink of the burned bodies, etc.
Don't tell me an elite of brainslug infested Germans did hide it all from the population. That's wishful thinking. It remains a collective crime that we Germans need to take responsibility of.
It does mean that we need to compensate those that our ancestors have done wrong. German generations who are born after the holocaust are responsible to raise their voices against fascism in an attempt to prevent it from happening again, in Germany or elsewhere. It doesn't matter that we're born after it had happened. It just means that we're not directly responsible but we are asked to take moral responsibility.
People of other nations who are fascinated by SS elite troops often try to apologize Germany and its military. Of course, who wants to cheer a bunch of murders? They're in good company with Ahmadinejad etc.
Germany has plenty of Museums and we invite everybody who wants to learn about the full scale of the holocaust to visit our memorials and educational institutions.

Concerning the renewed claims by the Israelis, it's not surprising to Germany. We get that frequently from certain nations. The last one was Poland during the Kaczyński regime a year or two ago. It's a delicate diplomatic matter. I guess it will take a few more decades for our neighbours and Israel to relax and get used to a good Germany that doesn't intend any harm. When in doubt we'll pay, though.

R'as

PanzerJaeger

11-13-2007, 12:42

When during the war years "my opposition" was written did the author get his information on the executions of Jews from high level generals or ordinary soldiers in germany itself ?

Anecdotal, much? Certainly no one is denying that German soldiers took part in the holocaust, but for you to extrapolate that into the conclusion that most or even a slim majority of German soldiers and civilians knew what was going on is simply incorrect.

This is all about scale. How big was the German military? How many were on the front lines actually fighting the war? How big was the German population and how many cities and towns were in Germany? Also keep in mind that most of the killing was done not in Germany or on the front lines, but in the occupied zones, which had completely different command structures. People seem to be drawing conclusions from individual accounts and pictures, but compare those accounts and the numbers who participated to the total German military.

Again, if the genocide was professed proudly by the Nazis and it was common knowledge throughout Germany, why were the camps kept hidden? Why was their a concerted effort to convince people the camps were pleasant places to be, even into the late years of the war?

Tribesman

11-13-2007, 14:04

Anecdotal, much? Certainly no one is denying that German soldiers took part in the holocaust, but for you to extrapolate that into the conclusion that most or even a slim majority of German soldiers and civilians knew what was going on is simply incorrect.

Bollox Panzer , there were standing orders to all units , just because these facts don't square with your hero worship of the 3rd reich and your denials of complicity it doesn't make them any less true .

Again, if the genocide was professed proudly by the Nazis and it was common knowledge throughout Germany, why were the camps kept hidden?
Blimey thats a hard one isn't it :dizzy2:
errrrr......what was the reaction when earlier exterminations led to human refuse from the mass burnings falling on good decent german citizens ?
What was the long term impact regarding effectiveness of personal due to extended exposure to the reality of the slaughter ?

This is all about scale.
Wow ...correct ....well done .
And the scale covered all of Germany, all of the occupied land , all of the industry and all of the transport network .

Probably nuclair tech related, doubt they would they would pass the chance to use it in the Nuremberg trials. But ok, can't be sure. Still strange though.
Nope , its standard practice .
They didn't need the decrypted intercepts at Nuremburg anyway , they had the original documents and eye-witness testimony .

Fragony

11-13-2007, 14:23

fair enough

In a war with lots of propaganda, when someone told you about it, would you believe it? I certainly wouldn't, too insane. Maybe you can call it collective denial, of course there were rumors, but it's really too horrible to concieve I think.

Husar

11-13-2007, 14:26

The camps were built pretty early, around the time the nazis came to power.
The whole scale and idea however, were only slowly introduced to the population, it wasn't a matter of yesterday we liked them, today let's burn them. Antisemitism wasn't exactly a new idea and was something they could easily build upon, somewhere between other policies, creating jobs and getting rid of the Versailles treaty the jews were slowly deprived of their rights to the point of ghettoization. Later on they were deported to what was called workcamps and the descriptions of "Arbeit macht frei" at the entrance just underline how there was an effort to make it all look somewhat harmless. Even the jews didn't know that gas was coming out of the showers until later, so saying that this was all open and everbody knew what was happening is as wrong as saying nobody knew. It would be rather pointless to make the gas chambers look like showers if the jews had known what was going on.

There were certainly rumours but then people were also patriots, don't underestimate patriotism, it can still deny such things today (gitmo :sweatdrop: ). Which leads us to the question that popped up in my mind.

If it was that well known everywhere, why did the whole world just watch it for such a long time? Wouldn't that make the whole world guilty? "No" you say, "the Germans alone are responsible for solving the problems with their government." But then why did we invade Afghanistan, Iraq, the Kosovo and station peacekeepers everywhere, I ask? :sweatdrop:

Handing the blame around is fun, isn't it?

According to the Band of Brothers movies the Americans didn't know about the horrible deathcamps either until they stood directly in front of one, so why would Germans living several (hundred) kilometers away know about the deathcamps? You think they made holiday trips to visit them? Those who inquired the Gestapo about it too often probably landed there themselves.
Yes, jews and Gypsies etc were said to be undesirable, were blamed for this and that, but their systematic genocide wasn't advertised anywhere, I'd almost see it similar to the Taliban regime where women were shot in football stadiums just because someone said it was okay. There was a jew shot here and there but everybody thought that he was probably guilty of something.

However, I'm not saying people weren't guilty of supporting an evil, terrorising undemocratic state but I also see that such regimes are usually either broken from outside or it takes a whole lot of time until the masses rise. You know, France had a king for several hundred years until the public finally gathered for a revolution. ~;)

Most people, and that's not different nowadays, just live their own lives, look at Africa, who really stands up to end the violence there? Who here would be willing to protest in front of the Iranian palace without a gun in his hands? Who here thinks he could seriously get enough Iranians to follow him there before the secret police would grab him?

Like I said, putting the blame on others is fun, but bad things still happen, I can't say I'd have the guts to oppose Angela Merkel if she started killing Dutch people tomorrow, I'd protect my dad but that's about as far as I'd dare to go, given my experience and knowledge about resisting a regime. :sweatdrop:

Seamus Fermanagh

11-13-2007, 15:49

Who knew what and when did they know it?

The Allies:

Evidence that Germany was planning to eradicate European Jewry was percolating through the intelligence system beginning in November of 1941. Even given the usual delays, bureaucratic CYA, etc., it is a virtual certainty that Churchill, Roosevelt and other key leaders were aware of this policy by mid-1942 (if not earlier).

The Germans:

Evidence of the anti-semitic policies of the Nazi regime and their willingness to use some degree of violence against Jews had to have been common knowledge -- note Pape's nicely sourced post above.

The presence of a concentration camp system, use of summary arrests, "disappearances" and the like must have been equally common knowledge. These dictatorial tactics MUST be common knowledge if they are to instill the controlling degree of fear necessary in a "police state" and the Gestapo were nothing if not professional. That these actions were known and programmatic is supported by the preponderence of anecdotal stories from those living in the era as well as government records. Given that concentration camps were part of the LOCAL landscape from the mid-1930s on, it is unlikely that significant numbers of local Germans were completely unaware of the conditions in those camps. The same can be said of slave labor and camps therefor as the war progressed.

To be fair, the primary concerns of most Germans would have been those of any of us -- getting through the day. As conditions worsened during the war, this would have taken more and more of their time. To some degree, this would mean that knowledge of concentration camps etc. would have been on the "back burner." However, it boggles the mind -- with locals delivering food and supplies to the camps, with their soldiers taking leave at the local gasthauses etc. -- to assert that the populace was so completely unaware of what was going on as some would have us believe.

As to the activities of the "special groups" and the death camps, there was a much more specific effort at maskirovka. However, these were facilities designed and equipped by German firms; rail engineers could not be ignorant of the destinations of their trains (nor of the fact that train-loads didn't come back out). Soldiers from the special groups did, at least occasionally, rotate into combat units. The thousands of personnel involved simply could not have been universally quiet about their activities. In short, some degree of information -- even if not confirmed by government broadcasts and denied at times thereby -- must have permeated through the culture.

Did many Germans make the choice, tacitly or otherwise, not to question the official version? Did the concept of factory-style murder so boggle the mind as to be dismissed (even in the face of some unofficial evidence)? This sort of "we didn't know" certainly occurred. However, based on the above, I believe that to some degree people were collectively lying to themselves to avoid something greatly unpleasant -- a tendency which is in all of us, I think. Were they unaware? Partially at least -- specific and official information was not forthcoming. Completely and idyllically unaware? I think not.

The Soldiers:

For the most part, line soldiers of the era knew jack crap about anything. The "Band of Brothers" unit, the 101AB, were in many instances unaware of what country Bastogne was in while fighting to defend it. Many of them could probably -- to this day -- tell you the exact lay of the ground around the village of Foy, but that is because the knowledge was intimately important to them at the time. At the time, they didn't know much more than that the locals spoke French. Even civilian populations -- faced with propaganda only choices -- were better informed than their fighting forces. One Alsatian, fighting in the Gross-Deustchland division, was largely unaware that most Alsatians were opposed to the Germans. He only knew the war was going badly because the kept backing up and fighting closer and closer to Berlin....That the first US and Brit units were unaware of the camps when they stumbled upon them is hardly suprising and significant of very little.

KukriKhan

11-13-2007, 16:52

Whether 10, 25, or 99 perccent of the German population knew of the concentration camps in the years circa-1939 through 1945, is interesting as a study of the ability of a people to use denial on a massive scale, and the power of propaganda and controlled (and by today's standards, very limited) information dissemination systems.

But it's ultimately irrelevant to the topic, IMO; by late 1945, it can be safely assumed that 100% of Germans knew. And as result of that knowledge, collectively assumed responsibility for it, and went about devising a plan to make amends. The question is: Have they made amends long enough now, in 2007, or do they still carry an obligation to compensate? And, is the original compensation plan adequate to cover all victims?

The German government apparently thinks "yes" to both those questions. And our German .org members express no qualms about continuing compensation.

The only remaining question I see is the one suggested by the OP:

"Is there an 'industry' of holocuast-compensation claims? What effects would such an industry have?"

Fragony

11-13-2007, 17:03

Tribesman

11-13-2007, 19:54

Did many Germans make the choice, tacitly or otherwise, not to question the official version?
Sorry Seamus , but that falls apart when the official version given to the German population on the front page of their newspapers was that the policy of extermination announced two years previously was now taking place , and though it was hard they must accept it and have no sympathy and no regrets because the Jews deserved it .

Odin

11-13-2007, 20:52

Tribes is right

I have access to a woman who fled germany in 1945 at age 14 due to the russian advancement, she is my mother in law. I have talked to her quite a bit about Germany in this period. Not only did she know about it, her brother and father were in the military.

She told me that everyone knew what was happening as far as deportation and eventual extermination, but they trusted Hitler. She did, and to my amazement in conversation she still believes that the deportation of Jews was in the best interest of germany given thier percieved collusion with the allies at versallies.

I pressed her once on the horrible conditions and exterminations, she admitted that years later she acknolwedged these facts but could never come out and admit that her knowledge at the time was tantamount to collusion.

Her arguments are classics, along the lines of it was for the greater good of the german people, what she fails to concede is the Jews of germany were german people. She also is able reconcile the slaughter of jews/others from other countries as "costs of war" (those were her actual words at one point).

Now she is a lovely person otherwise and in the 10 plus years I have known her she is compassionate, empathetic and considerate. I think when you talk to someone who was there, your meyered in disbelief as to the casual nature of how they reconcilled the actual events at the time. Understanding that as a 14 year old girl her options were limited as far as recourse, but as I found in my conversations with her, an entire nation was able to turn its cheek for the perception of the greater good.

My conclusion is that she along with many other good people were blinded by nationalist rhetoric and a desperation thats hard to fathom outside of the circumstance. Imperal Germany had been wiped off the map, she told us how her father would sing nationalist songs and rail against politicians, until Hitler. Desperately proud people brought to deperate conditions via thier choices during WWI, they were ripe for this and Hitler in his sadistic brilliance struck the proper nationalistic tone.

Sure maybe not every single german of the time knew all the gritty details, but they bought into Hitler, and as I have found out the common man/woman was aware of what was going on and why. The deportation, round ups and reeducations were not exclusive to the higher generals of the reich, this happened to real familes in established german communities while everyday people watched, and then went about thier business.

Tribesman

11-13-2007, 21:05

Tribes is right

Stop it , I want Panzer to keep up with the denials and slowly drip feed him nuggets , the next one was going to be the post war surveys carried out by the occupiers on the populations acceptance of ......:oops: .
Perhaps I had best wait till he tries to explain away how front page news wasn't front page news , how it wasn't pubished on the front page of German newspapers and how the population certainly didn't read it so couldn't have known .:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Odin

11-13-2007, 21:21

Evil_Maniac From Mars

11-13-2007, 21:22

Stop it , I want Panzer to keep up with the denials and slowly drip feed him nuggets , the next one was going to be the post war surveys carried out by the occupiers on the populations acceptance of ......:oops: .
Perhaps I had best wait till he tries to explain away how front page news wasn't front page news , how it wasn't pubished on the front page of German newspapers and how the population certainly didn't read it so couldn't have known .:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Show me a picture of a German newspaper, give me a recording of a propaganda film or speech, available to the public, that backs up your opinion.

Tribes is right

I have access to a woman who fled germany in 1945 at age 14 due to the russian advancement,
Then how do you explain this:

As an eyewitness testimony, my grandfather worked on navigation for Luftwaffe aircraft during the war. He was fairly anti-Nazi (he was very much against the war, which is why he used that as an alternative to fighting), and worked for MI6 after the war. Yet, he always claimed he knew of slave labour, and almost everyone did, but he knew of little more than deportations and occasional executions, not systematic mass murder.
Remember, if you dare call him a liar, it means I can also say your source was not telling the truth, so find some evidence.

Now, here is my stance, as a German, a German citizen, and a German taxpayer:

Payments should continue, but only to those who can provide evidence of never having recieved payment or having not recieved adequate payment, in the view of the possessions they lost and their ability to buy more. The state of Israel should recieve no money, and the welfare of it's citizens today is it's own concern, and should not be funded by Germany. Their possessions should be returned, and that is all. I think the billions paid should have already covered it, but isolated cases should be either turned away or given compensation, depending on what they lost and how much they have recieved in return.

In return to the original point, who considers that to be an acceptable solution?

Odin

11-13-2007, 21:26

Originally Posted by Odin
Tribes is right

I have access to a woman who fled germany in 1945 at age 14 due to the russian advancement,

Then how do you explain this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EMFM
As an eyewitness testimony, my grandfather worked on navigation for Luftwaffe aircraft during the war. He was fairly anti-Nazi (he was very much against the war, which is why he used that as an alternative to fighting), and worked for MI6 after the war. Yet, he always claimed he knew of slave labour, and almost everyone did, but he knew of little more than deportations and occasional executions, not systematic mass murder.

Remember, if you dare call him a liar, it means I can also say your source was not telling the truth, so find some evidence.

Well, you can chose to believe what ever you want, its the web after all you should take everything you read here with a healthy dose of skeptism.

Yet, he always claimed he knew of slave labour, and almost everyone did, but he knew of little more than deportations and occasional executions, not systematic mass murder.

Nope wont call him a liar, again I have one source and her claims, for all I know she could be making the whole thing up.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

11-13-2007, 21:55

Nope wont call him a liar, again I have one source and her claims, for all I know she could be making the whole thing up.
Well, you seem very reasonable on the subject, and I can see your opinion to a certain extent, so I think I'll do something unheard of in the Backroom...agree to disagree, as such. ~:)

What about this post of mine?

Now, here is my stance, as a German, a German citizen, and a German taxpayer:

Payments should continue, but only to those who can provide evidence of never having recieved payment or having not recieved adequate payment, in the view of the possessions they lost and their ability to buy more. The state of Israel should recieve no money, and the welfare of it's citizens today is it's own concern, and should not be funded by Germany. Their possessions should be returned, and that is all. I think the billions paid should have already covered it, but isolated cases should be either turned away or given compensation, depending on what they lost and how much they have recieved in return.

In return to the original point, who considers that to be an acceptable solution?
Thoughts?

Tribesman

11-14-2007, 00:59

Show me a picture of a German newspaper, give me a recording of a propaganda film or speech, available to the public, that backs up your opinion.

Wow what a challenge , so much to choose from , should I go with something like ....

The battle to the end.

The Jew wants to force us back to a life of slavery so that he can live off us as a parasite and suck us dry. The healthy life of our people stands against the parasitic life of the Jew.

Who in this struggle can still speak of pity, brotherly love, etc.? Who believes that a parasite (e.g., a louse) can be improved or changed? Who believes that one can come to an agreement with a parasite? We can only choose between being devoured by the parasite or destroying it.

The Jew must be destroyed wherever we meet him!

In so doing, we commit no crime against life, but rather serve life's laws of battle, which always oppose that which is an enemy to healthy life. Our battle serves to maintain life.

A German victory — the victory of the created order.

..or perhaps Hitler himself on Jan30th'39 could follow , then maybe Goebells publication from 16th Nov'41...so much to choose from , but hey to make it really easy should I just post a list of Streichers publications on the solution tothe Jewish problem?

So Mars , since there are hundreds of universities and holocaust studies out there and each have a large selection of German pubications from the period it isn't really much of a challenge to back up my opinion is it , would you really like to see some ?:inquisitive:
Or are you going to decide that Panzer wasn't very wise when he suggested ....
Are you just making things up now?~;)

Evil_Maniac From Mars

11-14-2007, 01:36

Firstly, do you have the original text of the article? Translations can sometimes be taken the wrong way, or made a certain way to suit a certain point. For curiosity value, if you will.

Secondly, that makes no specific mention of death camps in the text. It could, even in that translation, to mean only the execution of those Jews who were high on the command chain in the Jewish community, not all of them.

Thirdly, I would like to draw on Fragony's point. Even if there were rumours, who would believe it? Nobody sane would be convinced that something on this scale really did happen until after the war. I would have thought it was an elaborate hoax if somebody had told me at the time. While I naturally agree that the Holocaust happened, and I agree that it was just as bad or worse as most historians say, and I disgusted by it, and I am very sorry the Jewish people suffered, I'm saying that I do not believe most Germans knew about it.

But the final point is that this isn't the point, and we are drastically off-topic. I'm not arguing that some Germans knew, I'm arguing that the majority did not.

Odin

11-14-2007, 02:03

Now, here is my stance, as a German, a German citizen, and a German taxpayer:

Payments should continue, but only to those who can provide evidence of never having recieved payment or having not recieved adequate payment, in the view of the possessions they lost and their ability to buy more. The state of Israel should recieve no money, and the welfare of it's citizens today is it's own concern, and should not be funded by Germany. Their possessions should be returned, and that is all. I think the billions paid should have already covered it, but isolated cases should be either turned away or given compensation, depending on what they lost and how much they have recieved in return.

In return to the original point, who considers that to be an acceptable solution?

Compensation is a hard concept because someone has to put a value on the loss, and in hind sight its even harder. Wasnt there an argument in the EU between Poland and Germany regarding Polands lower population numbers due to the war?

When the loss is tangiable there should be compensation in current dollars. If a jewish family can prove that art was stolen and would have a value of 2 billion now, they should get that money.

So for the most part I agree with your compensation argument, there has to be a finish line on the material aspects in the present, no matter how valid the arguments are for collusion in the past.

However, and this is a big however, if companies still exsist that derived an economic benefit from the slave labor they should be hit in addition to government claims. In essence they should have recourse against all entities that still exsist, and claims can be proven.

Tribesman

11-14-2007, 02:47

It could, even in that translation, to mean only the execution of those Jews who were high on the command chain in the Jewish community, not all of them.

errrrr....of course The Jew must be destroyed wherever we meet himobviously only some jews , because the nazis had this wonderfully strange concept of good jews and bad jews that isn't widely publicised , it was only bad jews in the world that had to be exterminated :dizzy2: taken from.....to know the jews is to understand the meaning of war Den Juden kennen heißt den Sinn des Krieges verstehen

Nobody sane would be convinced that something on this scale really did happen until after the war.
Ah thats where the indoctrination comes in , would you care to guess what percentage of those ordinary germans surveyed by the Americans in their zone in 1947 thought the holocaust was justified ? as a clue , it isn't quite as high as the percentage that still believed in Nazi ideology but is still astoundingly high .
Its amazing , there is such a wealth of easily obtainable information out there yet you still want links instead of finding out for yourself . Have you thought of typing "Der Sturmer" into the search engine and reading what was available for all germans to read from '33-Feb '45 ?

But the final point is that this isn't the point, and we are drastically off-topic. I'm not arguing that some Germans knew, I'm arguing that the majority did not.
And that is the flaw in your reasoning , the whole idea was indoctrination of the whole population as a means to make what should be unnacceptable acceptable .:yes:

PanzerJaeger

11-14-2007, 02:56

Tribes is right

Because you know a woman? Hardly conclusive. I can provide many accounts of Germans who did not.

And you'll have to do better than that tribes... and maybe source it? Show us where the Nazis advertised the death camps please. Show us any proof that most Germans knew of extermination policies such as gas chambers and death camps. No one is arguing that the Nazis pretended to like the Jews.

You fail to address the question of why the Nazis took such great efforts to make the camps and their inhabitants look pleasant if most Germans knew of the gas chambers and were fine with it. Why bother?

Arbeit macht frei :shame:

Fragony

11-14-2007, 02:57

Wow what a challenge , so much to choose from , should I go with something like ....

..or perhaps Hitler himself on Jan30th'39 could follow , then maybe Goebells publication from 16th Nov'41...so much to choose from , but hey to make it really easy should I just post a list of Streichers publications on the solution tothe Jewish problem?

So Mars , since there are hundreds of universities and holocaust studies out there and each have a large selection of German pubications from the period it isn't really much of a challenge to back up my opinion is it , would you really like to see some ?:inquisitive:
Or are you going to decide that Panzer wasn't very wise when he suggested .... ~;)

//Thinks of Iran thread and is confused

Draconian rethoric, again the regime wasn't exactly low on it,

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions."

Hide your suv... It is clear that it was racist policy, but in the war of the words nothing that suggests the systematic killings. Quite the contrary, I have seen the same propaganda video's, chicken chase so much fun. In the documentory Shoah one of the survivers even told they had to write letters to their families to tell them what a great place it was.

It is, at least, conflicting.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

11-14-2007, 02:59

However, and this is a big however, if companies still exsist that derived an economic benefit from the slave labor they should be hit in addition to government claims. In essence they should have recourse against all entities that still exsist, and claims can be proven.
What about American companies, like IBM? Should they pay compensation?

@Tribes: Fragony and PJ have both stated my opinion much more eloquently than I could, refer to these posts. I'll exit that specific debate here, though I may pop in on it once in a while.

Tribesman

11-14-2007, 03:14

You fail to address the question of why the Nazis took such great efforts to make the camps and their inhabitants look pleasant if most Germans knew of the gas chambers and were fine with it. Why bother?
Ah but Panzer that has been dealt with , it was all about practicality , practicality learned through the T4 program and the early exterminations in the occupied territories . So many problems they had eh , it took a lot of work and thought to get it right , work that is well documented . Them chimneys could really be a bit of a bugger though , that took a lot of work to sort out how to do mass burning without showeringthe population with human remains .
Though of course you also refered to the propoganda film made at a transit camp which is of course when they made the effort to make the camps look pleasant.....good point , a damn good point ...wow such a good point could almost have me stumped if it wasn't pure bollox ...so tell me Panzer when was this film made and why was it made , who were the target audience for the display ?
Oh sorry , you did realise that all that is well documented too didn't you ? :thumbsdown:

Husar

11-14-2007, 03:57

I know my teachers aren't to be believed in any way (they promoted evolution after all :laugh4: ) but they told me that the gas chambers resembled showering rooms and the jews were told to take a shower after entering the camp and being sorted out. They were then killed by gas coming out of the showers. Now if they all knew that they were only there to get gassed, why the dress up as showers? Or maybe that's the difference between the pre-war gassing where noone had an idea and the gassing during the war were it became larger in scale and was more obvious?

However, the uprising in the ghetto of Warsaw was mainly because the jews knew that they were going to be killed anyway if I'm not mistaken so the word had probably spread by then.

Fragony

11-14-2007, 04:13

Been more configurations, in the more primitive period they used an old tank-engine for co-poisening. My guess would that when everybody walks, so do you.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

11-14-2007, 04:27

However, the uprising in the ghetto of Warsaw was mainly because the jews knew that they were going to be killed anyway if I'm not mistaken so the word had probably spread by then.

Yes, it's possible they heard rumours, but as far as I know they just wanted to stay in their city, and they also realized they'd die of malnutrition anyways. Though you're probably right, I think there were multiple causes, including the one you mentioned.

Brenus

11-14-2007, 08:33

Brenus

11-14-2007, 09:00

“You fail to address the question of why the Nazis took such great efforts to make the camps and their inhabitants look pleasant”: Did you visit one? I did. It doesn’t look comfortable…
“Why bother?” Control of masses: one thing the SS didn’t want was a rush of 15.000 potential victims in a station. Of course they couldn’t go far, but what a mess… And Nazi Ideology hates mess, blood on the tracks, etc.

Again some failed to recognise the fact that Slave labours were actually working in Germans factories. It was hard to notice their weigh, clothing and healthy appearance. And the fact it was a huge turn-over.
Columns of deportees crossing villages, people dying of exhaustion, anger and thirst, summary executions…

Again, the terror inflicted to the Germans by their own government would explain why so few did resist (and in fact not so few, I realised in researching for this debate…).
However, I am quite sure that the German Soldiers on the Fronts ignored the Camps, but they couldn’t ignore the Einsatzgruppen. These were NOT SS.
“The Einsatzgruppen were four paramilitary units established before the invasion of the Soviet Union for the purpose of "liquidating" (murdering) Jews, Romany, and political operatives of the Communist party. Ultimately three of these groups (Einsatzgruppen A, B. and C) were attached to army groups taking part in the invasion. A fourth group (Einsatzgruppe D) was sent to the Ukraine without being attached to any army group.”
“The Einsatzgruppen did not act alone. They had help. The Einsatzgruppen could call on the Wehrmacht for assistance”

Ser Clegane

11-14-2007, 09:10

I assume that you are able to back up this assertion a little bit?
“The German journalist Monika Zorn wrote a book concerning this historical revisionism: « Hitler’s victims killed for a second time ». She explains that the destruction of the German anti-fascist past goes with a kind of rehabilitation of German militarism and Nazism, explaining some cases of SS guards of Concentration Camps put in jail after the war by the Russians in Sachsenhausen and Büchenwald see today their names and ranks on monuments to “the victims of Stalin’s Barbary”, even with their SS ranks.”

“A hero of the German Resistance against Nazism Ernst Niekisch will have to fight to get his pension. It will be because an intervention from the European Commission in 1966, few months before his death, for him to obtain 30.000 DEM as reparations (for torture and jail, being almost blind) and a monthly pension of 1.500,00 DEM.”

These are translation (rough) of article in a French site dedicated to the German Resistance to Nazism.

From these tidbits (one of them referring to something that happened 40(!) years ago) you come to this conclusion:

However, the Germans resistance against Hitler was and is still seen as traitors by most(!!) of the nowadays Germans.
(emphasis added by me)

Wow ... that's quite a jump I'd say...

EDIT: BTW, tried to find something about the author and her book ... for the time being just one comment: "Oh dear" (I'll try to be a bit more comprehensive later today)

Tribesman

11-14-2007, 09:43

I know my teachers aren't to be believed in any way (they promoted evolution after all ) but they told me that the gas chambers resembled showering rooms and the jews were told to take a shower after entering the camp and being sorted out. They were then killed by gas coming out of the showers. Now if they all knew that they were only there to get gassed, why the dress up as showers?
Such a simple question to answer ...in fact a simple question that has already been answered it was all about practicality , practicality learned through the T4 program , now I wonder which date it was when the great minds decided that putting people into a "shower" room was easier if the installed some shower fittings , hey some great minds at work there , every little detail worked out over time to make extermination easier and less labour intensive ( though originally of course they tried the therapy room label instead of shower room )

Tribesman

11-14-2007, 09:56

Control of masses: one thing the SS didn’t want was a rush of 15.000 potential victims in a station. Of course they couldn’t go far, but what a mess… And Nazi Ideology hates mess, blood on the tracks, etc.

ah the old practicality at work again , while they did notice that much of the time people went quietly to their deaths even when they could openly view their fate , on occasion they didn't , on those occasions it would delay the process , put extra strain on manpower resources and would take more time to clear up the mess in time for the next batch .
So much work put into optimsing the efficiency of industrialised slaughter .

Louis VI the Fat

11-14-2007, 12:31

“The German journalist Monika Zorn wrote a book concerning this historical revisionism: « Hitler’s victims killed for a second time ». She explains that the destruction of the German anti-fascist past goes with a kind of rehabilitation of German militarism and Nazism, explaining some cases of SS guards of Concentration Camps put in jail after the war by the Russians in Sachsenhausen and Büchenwald see today their names and ranks on monuments to “the victims of Stalin’s Barbary”, even with their SS ranks.”

“A hero of the German Resistance against Nazism Ernst Niekisch will have to fight to get his pension. It will be because an intervention from the European Commission in 1966, few months before his death, for him to obtain 30.000 DEM as reparations (for torture and jail, being almost blind) and a monthly pension of 1.500,00 DEM.”

These are translation (rough) of article in a French site dedicated to the German Resistance to Nazism.Oh you old commie you. ~;)

I googled around, let's see if I get this right: the capitalistic successor state to Nazi-Germany, West-Germany, annexated the successor state of anti-nazi resistance, the German Democratic Republic, and then started on a program to eradicate all traces of Bolshevik resistance to the double-headed monster of capitalism/nazism?

Meh. There was a painful de-nazification of West-Germany, and also a painful lack of de-nazification in West-Germany. But West-Germany was not a nazi rehabilitation clinic. That is the extreme communist take on it.
Also, to it's historical credit, communism was a main driving force of the resistance against Hitler, in Germany, France, even the Soviet Union. But we can not equal resistance to nazism with communism, in none of these contexts. The re-unification of Germany is, err, well it is a lot of things, but it can't be simply equated to an exercise in historical revisionism.
Communism, the DDR, resistance to Nazism, and Germany's dealing with it's past are complex subject matters, Monica Zorn presents -at best- an extremely simplified and single-sided story about that.

Can't find English links. For those interested, French (http://resistanceeuropeenne.online.fr/hist.htm), and German (http://www.ahriman.com/buecher/zorn.htm)

LES VICTIMES DE HITLER TUEES UNE SECONDE FOIS !

Avec la disparition de la RDA, on assiste quasi officiellement à une tentative du régime bourgeois allemand de faire disparaître cet aspect de la Résistance. En Allemagne de l’Est, les monuments, les musées, le souvenir même de la Résistance antifasciste sont systématiquement depuis la réunification détruits, sournoisement éliminés (2).

La journaliste allemande Monika ZORN a consacré un livre au titre explicite à cette révision de l’Histoire : « Les victimes de Hitler tuées une seconde fois »(3). Elle y explique notamment que cette destruction du passé anti-fasciste allemand en RDA va également de pair avec une certaine forme de réhabilitation du militarisme allemand et partant du Nazisme, expliquant notamment le cas de gardiens SS des camps de concentration, qui, internés après la guerre par les Russes à Sachsenhausen et Büchenwald voient aujourd’hui leurs noms et leurs grades figurer sur des stèles de « victimes de la barbarie stalinienne »! « On dresse maintenant des stèles à leur mémoire, en temps que victimes de la barbarie stalinienne. Parfois même avec leur grade dans la SS ! C’est oublier que c’était des nazis qui y étaient enfermés ! » précise-t-elle (4). Elle dénonce aussi la planification de cette révision de l’histoire : « Au cours de nos recherches, nous avons été étonnés de cette « systématisation » dans tout le pays. On efface avec méthode la mémoire. Les petits sites commémoratifs sont purement et simplement fermés. Et dans les grands camps comme Buchenwald ou Sachsenhausen, on dénature les expositions qui existaient au temps des communistes »(5).

C’est là exactement la thématique révisionniste de l’extrême-droite partout en Europe et telle qu’on peut aussi l’entendre dans l’extrême-droite belge ou française.

Le récent débat autour d’une exposition consacrée aux crimes de guerre incontestables de la Wehrmacht pendant la dernière guerre (6) et la réaction des partis officiels allemands de droite est également significative du climat qui règne en Allemagne à ce sujet (7) (8).

R'as al Ghul

11-14-2007, 12:48

In case someone is interested in learning about contemporary knowledge of Germans:
2 book reviews about the topic and a summary on Wiki:
http://www.dradio.de/dlf/sendungen/politischeliteratur/687960
http://zeus.zeit.de/text/2006/17/P-Longerich
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaustkenntnis_von_Zeitzeugen#Kriegszeit

The bottom line is that it was an open secret in the beginning that was gradually spoken about more openly until the total disclosure in the last years of the war. Soldiers travelling back from the front, writing letters home reported their observations to their relatives as early as 1939. Photos from victims were even found in private photo albums.

Additionally German television started a new program yesterday, about German prisoners of war in Trent Park, England. Apparently the English accomodated them well and the Germans got talkative. Believing to be among themselves they acknowledged all kinds of knowledge about the extermination of the jews from very early on and their own participation in it. It also shows that the Wehrmacht was crucially involved in the annihilation process.

Odin

11-14-2007, 12:53

Because you know a woman? Hardly conclusive. I can provide many accounts of Germans who did not.

Yes to the 1st question, she lived it, did you ? (I'll hazard the reply is no) I'll take a 1st hand account over your suppositions any day. Im glad you can provide many accounts of germans who did not, bravo, give them a slap on the back for me will you? :7jester:

Odin

11-14-2007, 14:48

What about American companies, like IBM? Should they pay compensation?

Absolutely, if the claim can be proven. The burden of proof should be on the claimant, if valid it shouldnt matter where the company head quarters are. Thats an ideal situation, however I am sure there is a plethera of international laws and protections that would come into play.

Tribesman

11-14-2007, 15:01

Come on Odin you could do better than that , have a nice little dig at Panzers statement its so easy...take
I can provide many accounts of Germans who did not. ...and follow with some nice :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: and then give a yesssss.panzer:dizzy2: ...Like accounts given by Speer who even wrote a book on how he didn't know :2thumbsup: ...that funnily turned out to be complete bollox because at the same time he was writing about how he did know .
Oh such denials eh , the poor innocent members of the master race didn't really see what was common knowledge didn't read what was openly printed and didn't follow the ideology and policies of the state that was rammed down their throats from what you have said was their only source of news .

The bottom line is that it was an open secret in the beginning that was gradually spoken about more openly until the total disclosure in the last years of the war.
What is interesting is that in the pre-war and early war years (up until early '41) there was only occasional official and unofficial statements about the exterminations in printed and broadcast media , as the war progressed they became far more frequent . You only have to look at the German media works presented as evidence at Nuremburg to realise how openly this "secret" was broadcast to the entire population ...but don't tell Panzer he wants to think the noble citizens of the Reich didn't know ~;)

BTW does anyone want to take a guess at the figure I posed in the question earlier ? In 1947 in the American occupied zone what percentage of Germans surveyed still thought the holocaust was justified ?
You get awarded :balloon2: within 10 points :balloon2: :balloon2: within 5 points :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: within 2 points , or a whole :birthday2: if you guess the astounding 38% ...Hey that comes back nicely to Frag and his assetions of the reality being insane and unacceptable to sane people , but not factoring in the level of long term large scale indoctrination into the insanity .

Fragony

11-14-2007, 15:03

ah well, another illusion shattered.

Husar

11-14-2007, 18:33

Now that you say it Tribesman (and thanks for the shower explanation, it was an honest question from my side), it reminds me of how children in school had to learn the racial ideology of the Nazi regime about what jews would look likem, that they were greedy, not real humans etc.

Odin

11-14-2007, 18:55

Come on Odin you could do better than that

Well yes but Im on thin ice so I leave the lynching to you, your an expert. :thumbsup:

Louis VI the Fat

11-14-2007, 19:23

Ho-ho! This is a complex issue, there is no simple Germans knew / didn't know. I think any solid answer to the question 'who knew what when' belies simplicities. Valid questions can be raised about 'who', about 'what is 'knowing'', and about 'what'.

Also, like it or not, Panzer raises some good issues. There was a deliberate, concentrated effort to conceal the true cause of the camps. From the beginning right to the very end, when there where some attempts to destroy as much evidence as possible.
There are also stories about, not Germans, but Jews even, who, even on the train ride to the camps, did not, could not or would not believe what fate lay in store for them.
Then there is the unclear path that led to the decision to exterminate European Jewry. This is by no means a resolved issue for historians. (real ones, not the revisionists). It was not until the Wannsee conference in 1941(?) that the final decision to murder all Jews in the German controlled areas was taken. This was a misty, confused process, even for the ones most directly involved.
Etcetera.

For any question of morality, of guilt, I think there can be a clear answer: Germany could've known and should've known.

ICantSpellDawg

11-14-2007, 20:20

http://www.ghwk.de/deut/proto.htm

At the Wansee conference in early 1942, I thought numerous high ranking members of the party were surprised at the decision to kill the jews. Some of them had heard only vague rumors of executions at Riga. This was top brass playing dumb at a "secret meeting". Why?

Numerous party members and ordinary Germans thought the Jews were going to be deported. Eichman himself visited British controlled Palestine in order to create a dumping ground for European Jews. His "Office of Jewish Emigration" was responsible for the "Jewish Question".

The whole Idea that there was the concept of "jewish question" seems to lead one to believe that average Germans thought concentration camps were holding pens.

Executions began to speed up after the allied invasion in '44, so people being executed for what the government called "subversion" and "treason" wouldn't have been considered as outlandish.

Either way, the party elite and members of the Four Year Plan committees constantly misled the international and domestic community. Allied intelligence organizations knew little of the widespread executions until after the occupation of Germany. If the Intelligence organizations were blind to it, chances are that their behind-the-lines contacts were as well. One could infer that this is because it wasn't commonly known what was going on.

I think arguments like this, the generational gap, 65 billion dollars already spent, and the fact that the German government has done a complete 180 in policy are legitimate in addressing further claims of damages to be paid for by EVERY German citizen. This seems like a scam to me.

Brenus

11-14-2007, 20:39

“40(!) years ago”? The wall of Berlin fall 40 years ago? This describes what happened in ex East Germany AFTER the reunification…

“Oh you old commie you”. Err, in fact I just picked what interested me. The guy is quite, let says, surprising…
You get it right about him.
However it doesn’t dismiss the fact that because anti-communism, some facts were diminished. To kill Political Commissars isn’t so much important, is it?

“Germany could've known and should've known”: I would agree with this. It was better not to see and to know, so as we say in France there is no worst deaf than the one who doesn’t want to listen.
Seamus (One Alsatian, fighting in the Gross-Deustchland division, was largely unaware that most Alsatians were opposed to the Germans) mentioned Guy Sager’s book (Le soldat Oublié), great book. However he never refuted Nazism. His conclusion is quite surprising…:inquisitive:

Ser Clegane

11-14-2007, 21:22

“40(!) years ago”? The wall of Berlin fall 40 years ago? This describes what happened in ex East Germany AFTER the reunification…

The second part you quoted referred to a person having to fight for his pension and died ... *drumroll* ... in 1967. That's 40 years ago.

In addition you have in no way shown how this supports your assertion that the majority of Germans nowadays consider the people who fought in the resistance to be traitors.

Your only evidence is what a "journalist" (as the author of the book does not even use his/her real name it's a bit hard to validate whether she/he is a journalist or just some disgruntled Stasi) claims regarding a perceived "destruction of the German anti-fascist past".

It should also be noted that the publisher ("Ahriman") is more than dubious being linked to an organisation called "Bund gegen Anpassung" ("Alliance against Confirmity") which apparently gained some notoriety for:
- praising Saddam Hussein and North Korea
- radical leftists as well as far rights
- suggesting that HIV-infected people should be tattooed
and earned itself the label of "politicizing psycho-sect"

So there is no proof but just some claims from a source that seems to have the respectability on the level of "Chick Tracts" to support the assertion that I questioned.

Again - I'm in line with you regarding the sentiment that most Germans had at least a pretty good idea what was happening to Jews and other "unwanted elements", but your assessment regarding the current opinion in Germany has apparently a bit of a shaky foundation - to say the least.

PanzerJaeger

11-15-2007, 01:45

Yes to the 1st question, she lived it, did you ? (I'll hazard the reply is no) I'll take a 1st hand account over your suppositions any day. Im glad you can provide many accounts of germans who did not, bravo, give them a slap on the back for me will you? :7jester:

I have a bridge to sell you.

Ah but Panzer that has been dealt with , it was all about practicality , practicality learned through the T4 program and the early exterminations in the occupied territories . So many problems they had eh , it took a lot of work and thought to get it right , work that is well documented . Them chimneys could really be a bit of a bugger though , that took a lot of work to sort out how to do mass burning without showeringthe population with human remains .

So you're only answer to the fact that the Nazi regime made great efforts to hide the holocaust was the fact that on occasion people were showered with ashes? You don't think they would have simply changed the way they did it at a particular camp, moved the people, or moved the camp?

ah the old practicality at work again , while they did notice that much of the time people went quietly to their deaths even when they could openly view their fate , on occasion they didn't , on those occasions it would delay the process , put extra strain on manpower resources and would take more time to clear up the mess in time for the next batch .
So much work put into optimsing the efficiency of industrialised slaughter .

You're contridicting yourself. On one hand you say that it was common knowledge, yet now you seem to be agreeing that the Nazis kept it secret to avoid the Jews becoming unruly. If everyone knew, why bother trying portray the camps other than what they were?

Though of course you also refered to the propoganda film made at a transit camp which is of course when they made the effort to make the camps look pleasant.....good point , a damn good point ...wow such a good point could almost have me stumped if it wasn't pure bollox ...so tell me Panzer when was this film made and why was it made , who were the target audience for the display ?
Oh sorry , you did realise that all that is well documented too didn't you ?

The film was made in 44 I believe and was used for both international and domestic propaganda purposes. Well, to be exact, parts of the film. The film was never shown in its entirety.

So why in late 1944(when you say all Germans must have known) would the Nazis use precious resources and time to build an entire community and produce a film showing the Jews living in such harmony and use it in propaganda newsreels?

Again, no one is arguing that only a select few Germans knew of the Holocaust, only that a large number did not.

Odin

11-15-2007, 07:13

I have a bridge to sell you.

Yes , thats exactly what your doing, attempting to seel bridges. I do appreciate your candeor, it takes a bit of charecter to make an admission like this in the backroom particularly after such a long struggle within the thread.

:medievalcheers:

Tribesman

11-15-2007, 08:26

So why in late 1944(when you say all Germans must have known) would the Nazis use precious resources and time to build an entire community and produce a film showing the Jews living in such harmony and use it in propaganda newsreels?
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Oh such unbelievable attempts at pretending ingnorance Panzer...so tell me Panzer when was this film made and why was it made , who were the target audience for the display ?
..come on Panzer its a simple question , it essentily has a two word answer
the first word is RED...what is the second word (it has five letters) ?:dizzy2:

You don't think they would have simply changed the way they did it at a particular camp, moved the people, or moved the camp?
errr.....they did all three so your point was .

Yes , thats exactly what your doing, attempting to seel bridges
The thing is Panzer is actually buying the imaginary bridge he thinks he is selling .

Brenus

11-15-2007, 09:07

“1967”: And? Ok, I concede the point.

“So there is no proof but just some claims from a source that seems to have the respectability on the level of "Chick Tracts" to support the assertion that I questioned.” No proof at all. The fact that we know more about a so-call anti-Nazi Rommel, the fact that we know more about Guderian and others generals, even Sepp Dietrich, SS general is not a proof. I don’t know for you, but in France when I was younger (ok, much younger) I could find easily books on SS and others Wehrmacht heroes than about the Red Orchestra Organisation or anti-Nazi (German) Organisation. Ok, that doesn’t prove the Germans are still uncomfortable with Anti-Nazi movements.
The real question, the one you don’t answer but just, as a good lawyer would do, discredits the witness, is: Are SS guards seen as victims or Stalinist Hordes and honoured as such. Not in 1967 but today?
In 1967 it was forbidden to wear medals earned under Nazi Germany war (except Austria which was considered as the 1st victim of Nazi Germany, irony of the things). Apparently, now you can.
Perhaps I pushed a little bit, but there is problem in Germany about anti-Nazi Germans.
And I recognised the symptoms because I have the same about the French who help the FLN to put bombs and killed French soldiers, even if I don’t mix the IV French Republic with the III Reich…

I give you that it is not only in Germany. SS divisions in the Baltic States, Ustase in Croatia and Cetnik (even if I don’t put theses last two on a equal foot, the Cetnik never built concentration camps or issued discrimination laws) in Serbia, all are becoming heroes against communism.

Have to go to work sorry… See you later…

PanzerJaeger

11-15-2007, 09:42

Yes , thats exactly what your doing, attempting to seel bridges. I do appreciate your candeor, it takes a bit of charecter to make an admission like this in the backroom particularly after such a long struggle within the thread.

:medievalcheers:

I like what you did there, despite the spelling. Maybe you're not so dense afterall. :2thumbsup:

Oh such unbelievable attempts at pretending ingnorance Panzer...so tell me Panzer when was this film made and why was it made , who were the target audience for the display ?
..come on Panzer its a simple question , it essentily has a two word answer
the first word is RED...what is the second word (it has five letters) ?

You need to do a bit more research tribesy. You've got it partially right - but not quite. Here's a hint. There was a visit from the RED people and there was a film. Same place, different audiences. :book:

Husar

11-15-2007, 12:50

Perhaps I pushed a little bit, but there is problem in Germany about anti-Nazi Germans.
Most people I know think that anyone who wanted to blow up Hitler was a hero. :dizzy2:

I still don't see where the majority here nowadays views them as traitors, neo-nazis aren't a majority here.

Tribesman

11-15-2007, 21:30

No Panzer . Being the methodical people that they were , as they had spent the time , effort and money to make the hell hole look like a reasonable establishment for the benefit of the Danish delegation it made sense to record the fruits of their labours .
Practicality again .

Evil_Maniac From Mars

11-15-2007, 22:05

I don’t know for you, but in France when I was younger (ok, much younger) I could find easily books on SS and others Wehrmacht heroes than about the Red Orchestra Organisation or anti-Nazi (German) Organisation. Ok, that doesn’t prove the Germans are still uncomfortable with Anti-Nazi movements.

Just dropping by - I hope you realize that Canada accepted men (two thousand, AFAIK) from a Ukranian battalion (can't remember if they were SS, but they certainly were war criminals) into Canada on the basis they were anti-Communist. Other countries did the same. I would say Germany was one of the better nations for recognizing the resistance during the Second World War.

In 1967 it was forbidden to wear medals earned under Nazi Germany war (except Austria which was considered as the 1st victim of Nazi Germany, irony of the things). Apparently, now you can.

To my knowledge, the government issued replacement medals without swastikas that can be worn, which seems appropriate.