Armour, Archers and Defense

[Heidrek]

I'm a little puzzled about how exactly Armour and Defense works, as well as how these starts interact with ranged attacks.

I get that higher defense means the unit is less likely to die in combat. I also understand that Armour adds to your units Defense. 1 point of armour = +1 defense.

What I'm not sure of is how this works with archers. Is it your overall defense (inc. Armour modifiers) that matters against archers or just the units Armour stat?

[drone]

If I'm not mistaken, Defense plays no part in the ranged attacks calculations, only Armor and Shield modifiers. The official MTW Guide book (one of the best I've seen published, most these days are total crap, written before the beta release :rolleyes2: ) had the melee combat equation in it, in full detail, I think it had the ranged equations as well. Frogbeastegg's guide might have them in it, you might want to check there.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=31445

[macsen rufus]

:yes: Armour (inc shield) will relate to missile-resistance, "defence" to melee - which includes an "armour" element, but also figures in how well the unit fights.

[wumpus]

Query: In RTW, are Rhodian Slingers more efficient at killing people than Cretian Archers?
Query: Are the Armoured Hoplite of RTW as resistant to arrow fire than the Armoured Knights of M2TW?
Answers, anybody? Thanx.
Hawooh.

[Roark]

Wrong forum, dude.

[sharpshooter]

This is more an offense question about missile units.

The unit stats guides that I've looked at - FBE's and the YAS one - seem to give only stats for melee for archers.

How is the missile side handled - i.e. damage from projectile, AP Y/N, and range?

Is there a unit guide that includes this?

Can I read this in one of the game files? It's not something I see in CRUSADERS_UNIT_PROD11.txt - is it somewhere else?

Am I missing something?

I just feel like a noob sometimes ... and there's nothing wrong with being a noob. (In fact, I still encourage gaming friends to look at MTW - so many seem lost to WOW still - and noobs are to be cultivated, IMHO).

[Ironside]

This is more an offense question about missile units.

The unit stats guides that I've looked at - FBE's and the YAS one - seem to give only stats for melee for archers.

How is the missile side handled - i.e. damage from projectile, AP Y/N, and range?

Is there a unit guide that includes this?

Can I read this in one of the game files? It's not something I see in CRUSADERS_UNIT_PROD11.txt - is it somewhere else?

Am I missing something?


PROJECTILESTATS

[sharpshooter]

Thanks Ironside - obvious where it was really. :embarassed:

I wonder if you (or anyone?) would mind bearing with me while I try to work it out? Maybe there's already a thread that covers this ... ? (I have searched, but found nothing conclusive - better search terms, perhaps)

Now I look at it, it's done differently to melee, it seems. Leaving aside the range and trajectory type considerations - is there a formula for determining if the overall chance to kill? I didn't see one in the file. I can see it could be complicated ...

The following parameters seem relevant:
1. Accuracy (A): chance of hitting the target
- this is a range of >0 to 1, where 1 = 100% (value must not be more that 1)
- e.g. a Longbow with A = .6 has a 60% chance, a crossbow with A = .7 so a 70% chance

2. Lethality (L): chance of killing target if hit
- this is the total of base chance to kill (18%) x Lethality value, where this is a range of 1 to 5.5555 (since chance to kill cannot be more than 100%)
- so, L = L x .18
- i.e. if the target is hit the chance to kill, when summed, will be from a range of 18% to 100%, but not more than 100%
- e.g. Longbow with value .68 has a 12.24% chance to kill
- e.g. a Crossbow with value 1 has a 18% to kill
- is this a "critical hit" calculation, so if this is True the victim dies regardless of other modifiers, like Power and Armour?

3. Power (P): number of hit points damage
- most units have HP1, but RKs, generals, heroes etc have more
- e.g. a Longbow with a P = 1 hits a Halb with HP1 then he kills him, and Lethality is irrelevant
- but a Longbow with P = 1 would need to hit a General with HP 8, 8 times before killing him unless scoring with a critical hit (Lethality = True)
- Crossbows have Power 2, Arbs 3, and Arqs 4, so would need to hit a high level general less often than a Longbow

4. Armour Mod (AM): an armour modifier added in
- Armour Mod = Armour Mod value x Targets Armour
- e.g. a Longbow with AM .5 fires at a Gothic Sgt with Armour 5, so has a 2.5 modifier to add in to the calculation - but at what point? Accuracy?
- where do shields come in? I can see the Facing type parameters might be applied for the shield, but it wasn't clear from the file ...
- where does Armour Piercing come in - like the melee modifier, so lowers the target's armour value?

And, of course, the uphill/downhill, windy/calm type parameters must also be applied somewhere - but where? Against Accuracy?

I can see that the unit comparison guide might find this complicated to express ...

I'm grateful to anyone that takes the time to explain, or can point me to the right thread.

[Puzz3D]

Now I look at it, it's done differently to melee, it seems. Leaving aside the range and trajectory type considerations - is there a formula for determining if the overall chance to kill? I didn't see one in the file. I can see it could be complicated ...
Each man firing a projectile selects an individual man in the targeted unit as its primary target. The game computes the exact trajectory for each projectile to hit the primary target. It's a simple vacuum physics calculation (drag is not modeled) using the range and speed (projectile velocity) values. Accuracy enters in as a random directional error added to the trajectory which can make a projectile miss its primary target. It is possible to hit a secondary target if the projectile misses the primary target. Larger targets such as cavalry are more likely to be hit than smaller targets such as infantry. If the projectile hits the target, the chance of penetrating the armor is calculated. This is linearly dependent on the armor value * armor modifier. If the projectile penetrates the armor, the chance to kill (reduce hitpoints) is calculated and is linearly related to the lethality value. The power of the projectile determines how many hitpoints the target looses for each lethal hit.



1. Accuracy (A): chance of hitting the target
- this is a range of >0 to 1, where 1 = 100% (value must not be more that 1)
- e.g. a Longbow with A = .6 has a 60% chance, a crossbow with A = .7 so a 70% chance
The accuracy value is a modifier on the size of the random directional error applied to the initial trajectory of each projectile. The further away the target, the larger the positional error will be at the target. Tests on close packed units have established that the positional error is uniformly distributed front to back and side to side. The accuracy value (and range value) is altered by the game depending upon height of shooter relative to the target. High trajectory weapons suffer reduced accuracy when the shooter has an obstructed view to the target. Accuracy is also reduced for wet bowstrings and probably wind.



2. Lethality (L): chance of killing target if hit
- this is the total of base chance to kill (18%) x Lethality value, where this is a range of 1 to 5.5555 (since chance to kill cannot be more than 100%)
- so, L = L x .18
- i.e. if the target is hit the chance to kill, when summed, will be from a range of 18% to 100%, but not more than 100%
- e.g. Longbow with value .68 has a 12.24% chance to kill
- e.g. a Crossbow with value 1 has a 18% to kill
- is this a "critical hit" calculation, so if this is True the victim dies regardless of other modifiers, like Power and Armour?
If the armor is penetrated then the lethality calculation is performed. If the hit penetrates and is lethal, the hitpoint calculation is done. In most cases a lethal hit is a kill because men have only 1 hitpoint, but a general has six or more hitpoints.



3. Power (P): number of hit points damage
- most units have HP1, but RKs, generals, heroes etc have more
- e.g. a Longbow with a P = 1 hits a Halb with HP1 then he kills him, and Lethality is irrelevant
- but a Longbow with P = 1 would need to hit a General with HP 8, 8 times before killing him unless scoring with a critical hit (Lethality = True)
- Crossbows have Power 2, Arbs 3, and Arqs 4, so would need to hit a high level general less often than a Longbow
Lethality is relevant. The longbow would have to hit + penetrate + be lethal 8 times on the 8 hitpoint general.



4. Armour Mod (AM): an armour modifier added in
- Armour Mod = Armour Mod value x Targets Armour
- e.g. a Longbow with AM .5 fires at a Gothic Sgt with Armour 5, so has a 2.5 modifier to add in to the calculation - but at what point? Accuracy?
- where do shields come in? I can see the Facing type parameters might be applied for the shield, but it wasn't clear from the file ...
- where does Armour Piercing come in - like the melee modifier, so lowers the target's armour value?
The armor modifier reduces the effective armor as you have indicated for the projectile penetration calculation.

Shields add armor protection from projectiles to the front of the unit. We've measured this, and they provide protection for approximately the 178 degree arc to the front. There is an option for the shield to be on the backs of a man, and then they protect from the arc facing the back.

Armor Piercing modifies the attack value of the man in melee.
Attack bonus = (target's armor value - 1)/2
Attack bonus is rounded down to the nearest integer value, and the contribution of the shield and the horse are removed from the target's armor value before this calculation is made.



And, of course, the uphill/downhill, windy/calm type parameters must also be applied somewhere - but where? Against Accuracy?
Yes.

[Heidrek]

Thanks for the in depth info, one question though, you say that armor peircing only affects melee combat, but I though there were two types. The mele Armor piercing which increases the attackers attack value against an armored target by armour value -1 / 2.

The Armour peircing of missile weapons is different isn't it? otherwise a shortbow would be just as armour piercing as an arbalester. From what I understand, The "armor piercing ness" of the missile weapon effectively reduces the targets armour value by the indicated amount. e.g a Longbow reduces it's targets armor by 60%, thereby incresing it's chance to "penetrate" and check for lethality.

[sharpshooter]

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation Puzz.

A quick question about PROJECTILES while I'm absorbing this - in column B (Excel) it shows only shortbow - but nothing about Desert Archers, Turcoman Foot, Genoese Sailors etc. Where is this info?

It would be interesting to see a table comparing the different types ... unless they're all the same? Surely not.

Also quickly - about Valour. I understand it has a very small effect on projectiles - do we know exactly what?

Does it affect melee for missile troops?

[Puzz3D]

A quick question about PROJECTILES while I'm absorbing this - in column B (Excel) it shows only shortbow - but nothing about Desert Archers, Turcoman Foot, Genoese Sailors etc. Where is this info?
Column 25 in the CRUSADERS_UNIT_PROD11.TXT



It would be interesting to see a table comparing the different types ... unless they're all the same? Surely not.
All the foot archers have the same projectile stats (SBOW) except for the longbow (LONG), and all the mounted archers have the same projectile stats (MTLG).



Also quickly - about Valour. I understand it has a very small effect on projectiles - do we know exactly what?
Valor is supposed to improve accuracy, but the effect is so small it's not noticable.



Does it affect melee for missile troops?
+1 valor adds +1 attack and +1 defense to missle units and to melee units.



Thanks for the in depth info, one question though, you say that armor peircing only affects melee combat, but I though there were two types.
The armor piercing feature is used for melee combat. The armor modifier is for projectiles. They work the way you've indicated.