Spartans in Carthage?

[Intranetusa]

I just fought against a Carthaginian army in Sciliy which had a Spartan body-guard general (a unit of Spartans)...his name was Xanithippos.

Is this normal?

[Intranetusa]

Another question - in the description for the Sacred Band Cavalry/Carthage General Bodyguard Cavalry, they describe the horse armor as having lacquer lamellar. Did they have lacquer in the Mediterranean?

[mcantu]

I just fought against a Carthaginian army in Sciliy which had a Spartan body-guard general (a unit of Spartans)...his name was Xanithippos.

Is this normal?


yes.

[Eduorius]

To explain it better. You just fought Xanthippos, the Spartan merc at the service of Carthage. His bodyguard is composed of Spartan hoplites that came with him to North Africa in the winter of 256 - 255.

I think there is one or two more older threads asking the same.

About the lacquer in the description. Well I didnt made it, but I can assure you that if I should mention a faction that can get the most exotic stuff in the EB map and timeframe, that would be Carthage as they still have bounds with the cities of Tyre and Sidon in the Eastern Mediterranean.

[Intranetusa]

I just read a historical biography on google books about him. I'd like to say this is just awesome XD

[cmacq]

I think the first archaeological evidence of lacquer armour comes from the burial of Qin Shi Huangdi (king of Qin 247 BC to 221 BC and unified China from 221 BC to 210/209 BC).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Soldier_Horse.JPG/150px-Soldier_Horse.JPG

However, at this point this type of armour looks well developed. There is no reason why it couldn't have been around for several hundred years before?

Now, how it may have found its way to outfit a Punii bodyguard?

[Intranetusa]

I think the first archaeological evidence of lacquer armour comes from the burial of Qin Shi Huangdi (king of Qin 247 BC to 221 BC and unified China from 221 BC to 210/209 BC).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Soldier_Horse.JPG/150px-Soldier_Horse.JPG
However, at this point this type of armour looks well developed. There is no reason why it couldn't have been around for several hundred years before?
Now, how it may have found its way to outfit a Punii bodyguard?


That's lacquered lamellar armor. Lacquer itself is a resin coating made from the "lacquer tree," which is native only to East Asia (China, Japan, Korea) - as shown by your pics. Soldiers around the Mediterranean definitely used lamellar armor, but since there were no lacquer trees in the Mediterranean, I doubt their armor was lacquered.

[cmacq]

horse armor as having lacquer lamellar...
Did they have lacquer in the Mediterranean?

dude...
did you just answer your own question?

[Intranetusa]

dud...
did you just answer your own question?

Yeh, lol. I think I did after going to your wikipedia link. thanks :)

I guess that must've been a slight error in the EB's description of the Sacred Band cavalry units.

[Watchman]

That's lacquered lamellar armor.Strictly speaking that's actually a type normally termed "coat-of-plates"... rather cheaper and easier to make than the somewhat intricate lamellar too I'd imagine, which was doubtless one reason the Chinese could use it as something of a "standard kit" body armour.

Mind you, AFAIK the main purpose of laquering metal armour was waterproofing; having been to southern Japan in summer, I've no doubts as to why exactly those folks back in the day coated their lamellar thickly indeed...

[Intranetusa]

Strictly speaking that's actually a type normally termed "coat-of-plates"... rather cheaper and easier to make than the somewhat intricate lamellar too I'd imagine, which was doubtless one reason the Chinese could use it as something of a "standard kit" body armour.

Mind you, AFAIK the main purpose of laquering metal armour was waterproofing; having been to southern Japan in summer, I've no doubts as to why exactly those folks back in the day coated their lamellar thickly indeed...


Well I've seen pictures of actual metal "paper-clip" like stitching that held together the plates in a similar bronze & jade lammellar armor piece. So maybe the artist just couldn't represent the intricacies of true lammellar with a ceramic statue?



Actually, are the English soldiers in the movie Braveheart wearing coat of plates or lammellar?

[Horst Nordfink]

I'm suprised Mel Gibson didn't have them wearing SS uniforms in that film!

[Watchman]

Well I've seen pictures of actual metal "paper-clip" like stitching that held together the plates in a similar bronze & jade lammellar armor piece. So maybe the artist just couldn't represent the intricacies of true lammellar with a ceramic statue?No, the Chinese knew their lamellar perfectly well. That on the terra-cotta soldier is, however, coat-of-plates - (in this case) square plates riveted directly onto each other and/or backing.

Lamellar is the sort where you have a godawful lot of little vertical strips held together with lacing. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SCH1577ac.jpg)'s one example of the construction - although this one would be of decidedly simple type, given that lamellae might well have something like a dozen holes in them for the lacing...

Actually, are the English soldiers in the movie Braveheart wearing coat of plates or lammellar?Should be coat-of-plates. Lamellar was almost never seen further west than east-central Europe after Antiquity, not counting the rare Eastern harness sometimes encountered on a particularly wealthy and/or well-traveled Scandinavian.

Coat-of-plates on the other hand was a "cheap and cheerful" solution for most of your body armour needs, what now kind of on the heavy side.

[Principe Alessandro]

I have a question, this Spartan bodyguard exist really historically or only in the game? And if yes historically somebody has a source? And how fought against the romans?

Thanks

[Intranetusa]

I have a question, this Spartan bodyguard exist really historically or only in the game? And if yes historically somebody has a source? And how fought against the romans?

Thanks

The Spartan Xanithippos did exist and he really was a Spartan general mercenary working for Carthage. His bodyguard on the other hand... :/ ?



No, the Chinese knew their lamellar perfectly well. That on the terra-cotta soldier is, however, coat-of-plates - (in this case) square plates riveted directly onto each other and/or backing.

Lamellar is the sort where you have a godawful lot of little vertical strips held together with lacing. .


Ah I see. thanks...sorta resembles an inverted scale armor though. So that means that lamellar provides better protection than coat of plates?

[Palasta]

I just read a historical biography on google books about him. I'd like to say this is just awesome XD

Maybe got a link to it?

[cmacq]

Actually, are the English soldiers in the movie Braveheart wearing coat of plates or lammellar?


bloody braveheart again, it was likely plates o'plastic, what total crap that was.

[Intranetusa]

Maybe got a link to it?

Yes, here:

http://www.hat.com/Curr/Bx8056.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=65dQJqgCXDkC&pg=PA75&dq=xanthippos+spartan+carthage&sig=5NCuLH9ZVWr-ZOBtEOvVReAdq9E

2nd link is google books

[Palasta]

Thank you.

Thought there is a little more detailed information about him.

[Bonny]

The Spartan Xanithippos did exist and he really was a Spartan general mercenary working for Carthage. His bodyguard on the other hand... :/ ?

Xanthippus was not alone, he came with several other greek mercenary Hoplites. Since he was a Spartan we gave him the spartans as bodyguard unit.

[sgsandor]

Xanthippus ? How do u get him to spwan? I have never seen this guy yet, I know he is scripted but how?

[Pharnakes]

FAQ?

I think.

[bovi]

Xanthippus ? How do u get him to spwan? I have never seen this guy yet, I know he is scripted but how?
A forum search should provide the answer if the FAQ doesn't say.

[Geoffrey S]

The Spartan Xanithippos did exist and he really was a Spartan general mercenary working for Carthage. His bodyguard on the other hand... :/ ?
Similar questions were raised here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=94100). I also have my doubts about assigning Xanthippos a unit of Spartans, but in the absence of definite information the area is open to different interpretations.

[Watchman]

Ah I see. thanks...sorta resembles an inverted scale armor though. So that means that lamellar provides better protection than coat of plates?Coat-of-plates is a spinoff of the scale principle AFAIK, and you're even more correct if we go into the "brigandine" version - that is, plates on the inside riveted to an outer textile layer. The Chinese called that something like "armour of thousand nails" which does a pretty good job describing what it looks like (later they came up with a purely decorative version, for court wear and such, that had the shiny rivets but not the armour plates...).

The type in the picture is, however, AFAIK made by riveting the plates directly onto each other and/or backing, so it's not so much "modified scale" as "solid cuirass built up of a lot of small plates". I've read the officers' versions were triple-overlapping and made of good strong steel - a hard nut to crack by any standards - whereas the rank and file had rather less impressive models.

As for how it compares to lamellar, no bloody idea. Depends probably on the specific designs and material qualities involved; my hunch is they break more or less even, but coat-of-plates having the advantage of being rather easier to mass-produce.

[Intranetusa]

Coat-of-plates is a spinoff of the scale principle AFAIK, and you're even more correct if we go into the "brigandine" version - that is, plates on the inside riveted to an outer textile layer. The Chinese called that something like "armour of thousand nails" which does a pretty good job describing what it looks like (later they came up with a purely decorative version, for court wear and such, that had the shiny rivets but not the armour plates...).

The type in the picture is, however, AFAIK made by riveting the plates directly onto each other and/or backing, so it's not so much "modified scale" as "solid cuirass built up of a lot of small plates". I've read the officers' versions were triple-overlapping and made of good strong steel - a hard nut to crack by any standards - whereas the rank and file had rather less impressive models.

As for how it compares to lamellar, no bloody idea. Depends probably on the specific designs and material qualities involved; my hunch is they break more or less even, but coat-of-plates having the advantage of being rather easier to mass-produce.


Thanks for the info. Btw, how is it that you know about the military armors of non-Western/non-near Eastern civilizations? lol :)

[Watchman]

I'm a weird bugger who enjoys reading about them ? :sweatdrop: