2 Hit Points for elites and generals?

[Maksimus]

Ok, I know that some now hate me for posting this:sorry: .. but I just wanted to ask this, I wont push to it, but I would like to know non the less..:laugh4:

Why are there no 2 hit points in EB for elites and generals?
Why I ask this is because I find it very disproportionate in use of native and elite units verses their impact on battle - :charge:

In EB, you are acctually saving money while using native instead of elite units (lower - end ones) because that is due to cost/benefits system that is now in place (where you build elites just because they are 'cool' and not because they are more ussefull).. And if you don't use cheats.. you are doomed with cheap units if you want to win and buid your state!

For example.. Elephants are weak for their price.. one should never use them at all.. When you compare them to some levies or archers that can rout them with no prob on VH .. One should ask himself.. Why anyone used Elephants at all?? - that is making EB more 'closed' for gameplay ..
Also, elites die almost as easy as native units that costs 2-3 times less... It is very clear for phalanx and cavalry that elites are just a waste of money - wich is not what it was intended . . ~:smoking:

My native phalanx cost 2.5 times less and almost 3 times less in support.. While they have actually just 10-15% less skill and attack/defence..

My point - Please, If there is a system that is acountable for these calculations of costs/benefits and elites/non-elites comparation and classification - I would very much like to know for my education of how it is done.. My math is ok, so I am just interested in what patterns is EB team using while making their evaluations of units
By now, I don't belive they are purely historic or purely matf-based

and please don't take my post's as a critic.. they are not intended to be that. It's just a question based on one EB member post that EB team is using hard-coded system of unit evaluation.. I would like to know how it works?

Thank you:viking:

[NeoSpartan]

Ok, I know that some now hate me for posting this:sorry: .. but I just wanted to ask this, I wont push to it, but I would like to know non the less..:laugh4:


Don't worry we don't hate when people need clarification and help. The "flames" you see are from people who 'ask/make-a-claim" but don't pay ANY attention to the responses they get.




Why are there no 2 hit points in EB for elites and generals?
Why I ask this is because I find it very disproportionate in use of native and elite units verses their impact on battle - :charge:


In EB, you are acctually saving money while using native instead of elite units (lower - end ones) because that is due to cost/benefits system that is now in place (where you build elites just because they are 'cool' and not because they are more ussefull).. And if you don't use cheats.. you are doomed with cheap units if you want to win and buid your state!


In EB Elite soldiers are displayed more realistically than they are in RTW. Elite soldiers are good (high stats), they are reliable (high morale), but they are NOT "uber" soldiers, and they are expensive. If you look at elite soldiers they are, and have been, few when compared to the bulk of the army. They are also hard to come by as not everyone is able to endure a hard training, years of combat, and be able to afford the expensive equipment (few factions ever "issued" equipment). Additionaly elite soldiers ARE NOT unbeatable. They die just like you and I do. Misuse them, allow the enemy to surround them, cavarly to charge thier rear, slinger & AP javelings to hit them, etc... and you WILL loose your expensive elites. :skull:



For example.. Elephants are weak for their price.. one should never use them at all.. When you compare them to some levies or archers that can rout them with no prob on VH .. One should ask himself.. Why anyone used Elephants at all?? - that is making EB more 'closed' for gameplay ..
Also, elites die almost as easy as native units that costs 2-3 times less... It is very clear for phalanx and cavalry that elites are just a waste of money - wich is not what it was intended . . ~:smoking:


Well elephants is a BAD example but I still get your point. FYI, elephants ARE difficult to breed and take care off (just ask anyone who works at a zoo), they are NOT aggressive animals so training them to fight is hard, and in battle they rarely preformed good. Also they had to be imported from Africa or India, and then they had to be taken care off. Additionaly, if you look at their use in history, the rule was that they were unrealiable, only in a few occasions was their use effective. They had the unwanted tendency to get scared and run away over whom-ever. Scipio figured that if u gave them a hole in the line they would simply run through the hole rather than run over ur men.



My native phalanx cost 2.5 times less and almost 3 times less in support.. While they have actually just 10-15% less skill and attack/defence..


Yes... and that is correct.



My point - Please, If there is a system that is acountable for these calculations of costs/benefits and elites/non-elites comparation and classification - I would very much like to know for my education of how it is done.. My math is ok, so I am just interested in what patterns is EB team using while making their evaluations of units
By now, I don't belive they are purely historic or purely matf-based



As I said above Elites are NOT uber soldiers. They are good but don't expect them to hold their own like in 300. They will kick a** vs levies, but they can loose. They will also kick a** vs regulars, but less. Again don't misuse them, they are good soldiers who preform well in battle but they can be beat. Just like if you send Navy Seals to storm an Airfield, they are too few and you are exposing hard-to-get-soldiers to get killed by punks with AKs. Thats a job better suited for other more numerous, although slightly less trained, troop regiments.



and please don't take my post's as a critic.. they are not intended to be that. It's just a question based on one EB member post that EB team is using hard-coded system of unit evaluation.. I would like to know how it works?

Thank you:viking:

hope this helps to clear up somethings.....

[Zarax]

Armour and morale are at least as important (if not more) than attack/defence skills and that's where elites shine.
Also, elites are not supposed to be cost effective but rather a specialized tool for specific purposes (holding a crucial part of the line or assaulting walls for example) rather than end-all units.

[NeoSpartan]

BTW u DON'T need cheats!!!!!

EB is to be played at VH/M it is NOT easy like RTW. You have to plan, manouver, outflank ur enemies, and use the terrain to ur advantage. Simply going "right didle-didle right up the middle" ain't gonna cut it most of the time.

later... you can move up the diffucluty as you get better.

for starters Romani or Carthege in VH/M is good.

[blank]

Elites tend to have a specialized purpose. They are NOT line troops. Elites are for flanking, taking important objectives like walls or town squares (or holding your own), etc. Basically, they are meant for tasks where numbers don't count for much.
For example, an elephant unit, when correctly used, can rout an entire enemy line with little effort.

[Treverer]

For example, an elephant unit, when correctly used, can rout an entire enemy line with little effort.
Yep, that is how I conquer Macedonia & Thesallia in turn one when playing with Epiros. And remember, I'm far from being a good player.

T.

[pezhetairoi]

Elites shouldn't have two hit points, because that would make them way too powerful. Generals included. It would totally imbalance the battle dynamic. Imagine your generals still slogging it out on the flanks of the battlefield against the enemy's generals, while the rest of the whole enemy army is already routing, so much for a general's outflanking attack? Or your whole army surrounding a unit of chaonion agema that's poking people to death in front and hacking the enemy apart in the back that just. refuses. to. die?

Terrible consequences, man. Ain't gonna work.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Actually I do not fear a two hit point general. He'd die way faster than your average not-so-bright-green-lad the AI likes to send to certain death...

[NeoSpartan]

Actually I do not fear a two hit point general. He'd die way faster than your average not-so-bright-green-lad the AI likes to send to certain death...

well... in MP you WILL fear them.... now how about them apples? :beam:

[Raphia]

Trust me adding multiple hitpoints will be a disaster, units like the Hetairoi Kataphraktoi, any of the scared bands, Argyraspides etc will NEVER die, it will be fighting the Hypaspistai in rtr, basiclly a nightmare (While I pefer EB I also love RTR, no hate)

[Maksimus]

Thank you all for comment's this was important to me.. ok, You have made me to drop my ideo of adding 2 hp to some :sweatdrop:

Never the less, I know that 2 hp for some will not 'destroy' the game.. so anyway..
Do you think that Elites should have in their +1 expirience when they are recruited? I will make that happen.. So in Army and Royal barracks, elites will have +1 expirience..

NeoSpartan? are you EB member? I think you are now.. Still you EB members are surely using 2-3 accounts surfing the forum here :laugh4: just to make it look that some hard answers are made by a fan :laugh4: you cruel people:soapbox: .. One day I am going to pop in her and :chucks:
sorry, I just had to do that~:yin-yang:

Ok, just to note that I am not new in this 'buissines' I will post a picture of my campaign that is played on ALX.exe and VH/VH settings (and that is mucha harder compared to RTW.exe)
So have that in mind.. And realy, none of my posts is to bleme on VH settings generally.. so..

https://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5020/22875089bw5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[Thaatu]

Impressively logical expansion. A bit too fast for me, but that's my flaw. May I ask is Pyrrhus still around?


About the two HP thingy, at least it would take the focus away from the Gaesatae hit points.

[Maksimus]

:yes: Ohhhh... but he is!! ~D

I took Venetia and I am headed to take Helveti phalanx in the Alpines with him.. Actually, he took almost all big Victories.. for Rome, Carthage, Athens and Corintos, .. Syracusai.. Pella offcourse.. I will post a picture in Heroic thread.. And will say it is a BIG battle for me! Like I have to take Milano just now..:charge:

[NeoSpartan]

Thank you all for comment's this was important to me.. ok, You have made me to drop my ideo of adding 2 hp to some :sweatdrop:

Never the less, I know that 2 hp for some will not 'destroy' the game.. so anyway..
Do you think that Elites should have in their +1 expirience when they are recruited? I will make that happen.. So in Army and Royal barracks, elites will have +1 expirience..

NeoSpartan? are you EB member? I think you are now.. Still you EB members are surely using 2-3 accounts surfing the forum here :laugh4: just to make it look that some hard answers are made by a fan :laugh4: you cruel people:soapbox: .. One day I am going to pop in her and :chucks:
sorry, I just had to do that~:yin-yang:

Ok, just to note that I am not new in this 'buissines' I will post a picture of my campaign that is played on ALX.exe and VH/VH settings (and that is mucha harder compared to RTW.exe)
So have that in mind.. And realy, none of my posts is to bleme on VH settings generally.. so..


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't believe I missed this post :dizzy2:

Anywho nah man I am not an EB member... although maybe I should be... I've just been playing EB for about 1 year and a few months. Not that long really. BUT I've always paid attention to the game with what works and what doesn't as I generaly play VH or H, and recently I added fatige off.

Also, playing MP REALLY opened up the working and balancing of EB units. I know u can make test via costume battle, but the AI rarely cooaperates. MP test are WAY better. In addition, regular MP battles are test in themselves as you have to make the MOST use out of ur unit rooster and the budjet you get, and that REALLY brings out "inbalances" in the game. And contrary to what u might hear some "members" say, COST is a HUGE balancing factor in EB.

[iwwtf_az]

i also turned fatigue off. it seems the ai has no idea how to handle tired units. they just run them all over the place before a battle.

[blank]

i also turned fatigue off. it seems the ai has no idea how to handle tired units. they just run them all over the place before a battle.

That's weird - if I attack, then they just stand there (except for when there's a hill nearby, then they walk to that), when they attack they march straight at me, no running around randomly :egypt:

[Geoffrey S]

About the whole cost-benefit ratio business: elites are meant to be more expensive compard to the extra punch you get. They're still just men, and there's a limit to how much better even elites can be than line troops. Their advantage lies in greater reliability (higher morale) and a bit more power. As such, they can potentially make or break a battle, but not dominate it; adding another HP would break that principle.

And to be honest, 255 bc with that much expansion? Looks like you haven't taken the time to build up infrastructure, in which case a lack of funds and elites isn't surprising.

[NeoSpartan]

And to be honest, 255 bc with that much expansion? Looks like you haven't taken the time to build up infrastructure, in which case a lack of funds and elites isn't surprising.

hum... geoffrey? I guess you forgot that extensive campains can FUND your economy. you know... sacking cities.... thats $$ right there.