Makedonia is HARD

[WhiteShark]

Hello, i just wanted to share a point why playing as Makedonia is harder than any other factions in EB 1.0:idea2:

I am a EB veteran and i finished 4 campaigns since i played EB.

Last night, i started playing Makedonia for the first time and i noticed why many people struggle with it.

MAKEDONIA is basically a Hellnistic Phalanx/Heavy Cavarly based on faction. However, ulike any other faction, it does not have "Heavy Assault Infantry."

With no Heavy assault infantry to flank enemy infantry battle line, Makedonian player naturally need more cavarly than the enemies(to outflank their battleline and hit them from behind:smash: )

More cavarly = More needed fund to raise and upkeep them:embarassed:


Thank you for my little complain guys:laugh4: But If you are an EB veteran, Makedonia is the faction that you are going to enjoy playing.:2thumbsup:

[Tellos Athenaios]

Makedonia is probably the only Western Greek faction with heavy assault infantry:

Pheraspides;
Taxeis Triballoi;
Agrianikoi Pelekuphoroi;
Hypaspistai.

...

Ok, Epeiros got those two- *but* due to some missing EDB code can't recruit the Hypaspistai & Pheraspides yet.

[Folgore]

Well Pheraspides and Hypaspistai are both only available after you've build the latest level of barracks and they're both really expensive. I'm also pretty sure Agrianikoi Pelekuphoroi are classed as light infantry, not heavy. And I haven't seen any 'Taxeis Triballoi' in my Makedonia campaign.

That said though, I don't think Makedonia is hard at all. Once you've conquered Greece you should have loads of money.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Heavy assault infantry isn't supposed to be readily available everywhere you go... It's game is one of specialists. And while Agrianikoi aren't exactly heavy infantry; they are assault infantry - pretty much specially designed to be assault infantry, and nothing but assault infantry...

Taxeis Triballoi are available from Serdike; Naissos and Tylis AFAIK.

[Watchman]

The Agrinians may not be terribly heavily armoured (although they're not exactly fragile either - all those bits and pieces they wear add up to a surprisingly high number) but they sure as Heck should be able to make a major dent in nigh any unit, what with that crazy high defense skill and mean AP axe attack.

And I don't know about you, but whenever I ponder what an unit is good for I flatly ignore the type/class description (which are only relevant for the formation files and AI recruitement anyway) and concentrate on the stats.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

And Kuruathoroi in Tylis and Ankyra. And Rhompaiaphoroi... They have a incredibly versatile roster.

[Pharnakes]

With no Heavy assault infantry to flank enemy infantry battle line, Makedonian player naturally need more cavarly than the enemies(to outflank their battleline and hit them from behind:smash: )

Firstly can I just congratulate you on making a polite "underpowered" thread. :bow:


Second can I please say: No shock infantry??!!??!!?!?


But they're 1 of only 2 factions to recruit rhomphiaroi!:smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash:


One smash I am sure people will agree is not enough to describe the rhomphiaroi.

Prehaps a few more would be appropriate.:smash: :smash: :smash:

[Sakkura]

Agrianikoi pelekuphoroi - ideal quick flanking troops, decently protected and with a nasty AP axe.
Pheraspides - strong unit for wall fighting and still excellent for flanking, although expensive.
Thraikioi Rhompaiaphoroi - Can chop pretty much anything to pieces.
Thureophoroi - Kinda weak, but is recruitable fairly quickly so you have them until you get the MICs for the heavier stuff.
Hypaspistai - Excellent for both holding the line or for flanking. Expensive, but worth every mnai.
Taxeis triballoi - I don't use them much, but if you feel the need for some heavy swordsmen, they will certainly fit the bill.

Makedon have an outstanding selection of assault troops. The only thing they're missing are Clone Troopers, and it really is possible to play the game without 20-armor tanks.

[Pharnakes]

Ohh, and another thing people don't seem to be mentioning - Thrakoi peltastai, which for their money are the best shock infantry in the game, by a long way. And damn close to just being the best shock infatry in the game.

[Sakkura]

Ohh, and another thing people don't seem to be mentioning - Thrakoi peltastai, which for their money are the best shock infantry in the game, by a long way. And damn close to just being the best shock infatry in the game.
Lol, I didn't know their lethality was as high as it is. I'm gonna recruit a load of those now in my Mak campaign. Thanks for the inspiration.

[Pharnakes]

You shuld try the hindu archers. Best archers, bset shock troops. And overall cheap. What more do you want?

[Sakkura]

You shuld try the hindu archers. Best archers, bset shock troops. And overall cheap. What more do you want?
I think Makedon wants them to be available further west :beam:

[Digby Tatham Warter]

Hello, i just wanted to share a point why playing as Makedonia is harder than any other factions in EB 1.0:idea2:
Greetings,
Then how do you feel about the horse archer factions, like Parthia, no decent inf and a much smaller income?

Personally I find the Maks easy because you can take Greece in a few turns and then the money poors in. I have about 300,000+ in the bank and 3 full stacks, with about 20,000 profit per turn. Pella makes a mint just on it's own, get the right man in there, with the right traits, I think I have mine pulling in 7,500, with the large mine in place.
Each stack contains:
1 Gen
2 Companion Cav
1 Thessalonian Heavy Cav
1 Light Horse Archer
2 Silver Shield Pikes
3 Reformed Pikes
1 Hypaspistai
1 Pheraspides
2 Thueros(spelling) Spearmen
1 Thracian Elite Inf
2 Thracian Peltasts
2 Thueros(spelling) Spearmen
2 Bosphorian Archers
1 Celtic Slingers.
Whilst not quite as tough on the flanks as my AS forces, the Maks are not to be trifled with.

I have about 20 provinces and it's approax 230 BC. I used the new recruitment guide tool, to find what interesting troops I could get my hands on, within reasonable reach, once a Type 4 was set up. I did this as early as possible, whilst an advance guard keeps the Romans within it's borders.
I won't build any more armies, 3 is enough, unless of course the AI does an everyone attack him at once special.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Au contraire, I see it more like Parthia has the barebone essentials of infantry classes. If you want to hold a line, there's the Cardaces, and levy phalangites, possibly even basic spearmen. If you want foot-archers, you have an inexhaustible variety to choose from. If you want composite light infantry, Iranian axemen and archer-spearmen make worthy additions; Hyrcanian hillmen and specifically Indian guild warriors make quite adequate shock troops. Imitation legions? Get further to the west and get hold of the Parthohellenikoi Thureos infantry. Further to the east, there are the Indo-Greek peltasts. They also have access to basic slingers. All in all, every possible class fits into that cultural zone, worthwhile for garrison or auxiliary duty. They are just not very outstanding, although the Cardaces, Indian Guild Warriors and the Hyrcanians hold excellent qualities to them. Of course in this case we exclude the foot-archers :grin:

Though in unison with the other opinions, Makedonia is rather heavy on assault infantry. This is offset by their lack of archery; In mentality Makedonia has the potential to punch through anything, though their arms are short, so to speak. This makes them a "brawler" faction to me; You can keep them at bay, but letting them in too close will prove disastrous. Unless the bastards misues slingers... <_<

[Watchman]

I thought the "brawler" descriptor was more for the "barbarian" factions, whose armies tend have little but shock attack infantry...? Personally I've always thought of the Diadochi lineups as more a "pin and flank" kind of affair...

[blank]

Another extremely useful unit is the Bosphoran Heavy Archers, which are recruitable on the western (and northern) shores of the Black Sea.

edit: ****, too late.

[Sakkura]

Though in unison with the other opinions, Makedonia is rather heavy on assault infantry. This is offset by their lack of archery; In mentality Makedonia has the potential to punch through anything, though their arms are short, so to speak. This makes them a "brawler" faction to me; You can keep them at bay, but letting them in too close will prove disastrous. Unless the bastards misues slingers... <_<
I generally agree, but the sneaky Mak player can go all the way up to the Bosp(h)oran kingdom and get excellent armored archers.

Edit: Lol... I suck.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I thought the "brawler" descriptor was more for the "barbarian" factions, whose armies tend have little but shock attack infantry...? Personally I've always thought of the Diadochi lineups as more a "pin and flank" kind of affair...

Well, I don't want to be all black-and-white in my designations of faction mentalities, but Makedonia, unlike AS or Ptolemaioi seems to possess that something extra with its Thracian connections; They are certainly less "brawlers" than the Celtic factions, Iberians and the Germanics, but somehow, for Makedonia I feel that phalangites, with such an excellent array of assault infantry, just kind of feels redundant, if you know what I mean. I don't think my perception was the intention of the team, but then again it's just me and my OCD against clumsy pikes... :shrug: (At least, they are more "brawlers" than their Diadokhoi brethren by this rationael, should've been more specific <_<)

It's kind of the same with Parthia when you think about it; The only infantry you'll ever want to recruit will be those Iranian archer-spearmen anyways. Cardaces? Why would one want to close in with crazy Hellenes? Hyrcanians? No. Well, yes, if you place them in a fort outside of Zadrakata if those snooty bastards rebel... Otherwise no. I don't like casualties, and should they be inevitable I'll send those awesome archer-spearmen. Everyone wins. See, it's flawless ~:joker:

[Watchman]

Doesn't most of what goes for the Macs then also apply to the Epirotes ? I'm under the impression they're generally poorer on phalanxes to boot...

Granted, as the Diadochi go those two have among the easiest access to some pretty "hitty" infantry, but conversely don't the eastern ones really make up for it by being able to tap the fine pool of Eastern horse for about any non-siege purpose one can think of ?

Although personally I'm unconvinced of the wisdom of trying to fight phalanxes (assuming an army that isn't seriously missile heavy here mind you) with even good shock infantry without pikes of your own to pin theirs in place, should you have the option. Playing as Armenia I noticed even those crappy Pantodapoi Phalangitai can, when properly used, "block and contain" even considerably higher-grade phalanxes quite well (and without excessive casualties) while the cavalry and nasty men with furry vests and sharp axes roll up the line.

[King Philip II]

Wow - a covert "underpowered" thread for the Maks. Makedonia is probably the stongest faction IMHO - here is a quick 5-step plan to the winning with the Maks:
1. Sack Athens and destroy all buildings incl. the Acropolis. Leave Antigonos' brother in Athens.
2. Swing NW and sack Ambrakia
3. Build mines in Pella
4. Game over
5. Oups that's only four steps :inquisitive:

[The Persian Cataphract]

Doesn't most of what goes for the Macs then also apply to the Epirotes ? I'm under the impression they're generally poorer on phalanxes to boot...

Well, I suppose the the same rationale can be applied to them as well; They do get pretty easy access to Illyrians and whatnot.


Granted, as the Diadochi go those two have among the easiest access to some pretty "hitty" infantry, but conversely don't the eastern ones really make up for it by being able to tap the fine pool of Eastern horse for about any non-siege purpose one can think of ?

Yep :grin:


Although personally I'm unconvinced of the wisdom of trying to fight phalanxes (assuming an army that isn't seriously missile heavy here mind you) with even good shock infantry without pikes of your own to pin theirs in place, should you have the option. Playing as Armenia I noticed even those crappy Pantodapoi Phalangitai can, when properly used, "block and contain" even considerably higher-grade phalanxes quite well (and without excessive casualties) while the cavalry and nasty men with furry vests and sharp axes roll up the line.

Well, it's more or less the "OCD" I spoke of earlier; If I can avoid infantry, I'd rather have it that way. If I need them, I bring tactical flexibility into mind. Phalangites operate in large plates, usually cumbersome, and slow. If I need to guard a narrow pass or a city gate, they fit the bill perfectly, no argument there. My disparagement of phalangites come from the days when I slaughtered them en masse with horse-archers, usually within minutes. So thusly whenever I use the phalangites I always bitch and moan about it thinking "No wonder why I used to give these guys a good thrashing...". Somehow as Makedonia, I instantly come to think "Hey, I want to maintain an offensive, swift but flexible edge...". So what do I do? Assault infantry. If I'm on the mood for anvil and hammer, I get that too :beam:

[Watchman]

I've found phalangites plenty maneuverable enough, personally. One only needs to avoid repeating the mistake the AI does - that of keeping the pikes leveled when not actually necessary. Dash them into position (screened by a layer of skirmishers to stall any funny ideas the enemy might develop about bum rushing them, if necessary) and only then lower the pikes to go into the offensive.

Also, they're much more manageable in deep blocks than wider lines I've noted. And seem to fight even higher-grade phalanxes better that way most of the time.

[blank]

Keep in mind one important aspect - the AI is retarded. Phalanxes only work in a line, but it is all too easy to lure the puny AI into breaking up their phalanx line, thus enabling you to surround them at leisure, or even march slingers around to maul the phalangites from the back.

[Emperor Burakuku]

I took Scorcouw with 2 Agrianikoi, one Royal Guards and the general. The rebels had 2 Elite Scordisci, 2 Drapanai (sp?), one druids unit plus 2-3 other units. 'till then I thought the Agrianikoi aren't that good as ppl said. Not to mention all other units from Royal Guards to Triballoi (mainly cuz I am lazy and also because of the spelling).

[Pharnakes]

The discusion is really slightly irelevant, untill you have played mp. And, it is like playing a different game.

Phalaganatia still rule the rost, but only if you keep them organised. And only in mp do light skirmisher cav truely come into their own. In sp they're a bit pointless, since the AI is so stupid, their primary role of disruption is uneseseary.

Trust me people, untill you have played mp, you haven't taken the best that eb has to offer you.

[Horst Nordfink]

Ohh, and another thing people don't seem to be mentioning - Thrakoi peltastai, which for their money are the best shock infantry in the game, by a long way. And damn close to just being the best shock infatry in the game.

Is that true?! I'd used them a few times and found them to be handy.

[Pharnakes]

Handy??! Handy!!?

Blasphemous and slanderous understament, sir!:whip:


:laugh4:

[Emperor Burakuku]

The discusion is really slightly irelevant, untill you have played mp. And, it is like playing a different game.

Phalaganatia still rule the rost, but only if you keep them organised. And only in mp do light skirmisher cav truely come into their own. In sp they're a bit pointless, since the AI is so stupid, their primary role of disruption is uneseseary.

Trust me people, untill you have played mp, you haven't taken the best that eb has to offer you.

I agree 100% :). But since 1.0 I haven't played mp at all. I am so scared. I mean before that I waisted a whole week with Madmat just eating and playing mp EB.

[Digby Tatham Warter]

Originally Posted by Pharnakes;
"Ohh, and another thing people don't seem to be mentioning - Thrakoi peltastai, which for their money are the best shock infantry in the game, by a long way. And damn close to just being the best shock infatry in the game".

I use them in my AS(mercs) and Mak campaigns, but I consider them fairly weak in melee because of their low armour, they often loose to many men, and that's with me being careful. I prefer my shock infantry irrespective of cost, not to suffer shocking casualties. Mainly because I am to lazy to cart replacements over long distances, I also like to see the cheverons grow on my small no of vet armies(usually three tops).


Originally Posted by The Persian Cataphract;
"Au contraire, I see it more like Parthia has the barebone essentials of infantry classes. If you want to hold a line, there's the Cardaces, and levy phalangites, possibly even basic spearmen. If you want foot-archers, you have an inexhaustible variety to choose from. If you want composite light infantry, Iranian axemen and archer-spearmen make worthy additions; Hyrcanian hillmen and specifically Indian guild warriors make quite adequate shock troops. Imitation legions? Get further to the west and get hold of the Parthohellenikoi Thureos infantry. Further to the east, there are the Indo-Greek peltasts. They also have access to basic slingers. All in all, every possible class fits into that cultural zone, worthwhile for garrison or auxiliary duty. They are just not very outstanding, although the Cardaces, Indian Guild Warriors and the Hyrcanians hold excellent qualities to them. Of course in this case we exclude the foot-archers

Though in unison with the other opinions, Makedonia is rather heavy on assault infantry. This is offset by their lack of archery; In mentality Makedonia has the potential to punch through anything, though their arms are short, so to speak. This makes them a "brawler" faction to me; You can keep them at bay, but letting them in too close will prove disastrous. Unless the bastards misues slingers..."


One must admit that my Parthian campaign will be a tad easier now that Baktria has kindly 'donated it's capital, because of the levy pikes, but Indian Guild Warriors? Their miles away(many), then you have to build stuff, and them march them forever to be of any use.

I play differently than many players I think, in that I like to keep the same forces fighting and not keep chucking in new units into my armies to replace heavy loses. The original post was about the Maks lack of Assault inf and thus they are hard to play. Compared to what the Maks have 'readily available'(Thracian troops and horse archers are only 2 provinces away)Parthia is lacking, understandably of course!

I don't see the Maks as brawlers, my Sucessor armies are highly organised surgical Implements, and IMO they make the most powerful and versatile armies in the game, particulary my AS armies.

[Horst Nordfink]

Handy??! Handy!!?

Blasphemous and slanderous understament, sir!:whip:


:laugh4:

Just recruited a couple of units of Thrakoi Peltasti to test your theory, and hot damn they're far better than I remembered. They are now my favourite unit in EB. Bar none.

Handy was a ludicrous word to describe them! It almost makes it worth the while to conquer the waste lands of Thrace for these bad boys alone!

[mAIOR]

I never have less than 2 of those buggers in my armies! I found their only fault is not to deal with Gaestasae all too well... It gets kinda redundant since they have little armor. Against really heavy infantry they make your day (they once held a unit of hypaspists and tough they were loosing by a little, they weakned it so much that one cav charge from the bakc broke them!).


Cheers...

[Digby Tatham Warter]

Just recruited a couple of units of Thrakoi Peltasti to test your theory, and hot damn they're far better than I remembered. They are now my favourite unit in EB. Bar none.

Handy was a ludicrous word to describe them! It almost makes it worth the while to conquer the waste lands of Thrace for these bad boys alone!
Have you tried the Thrakoi Elite inf with the 2 handed Rhombia(spelling)? I tried these against a unit of Hypaspistai, and they tore them up with 65 men remaining out of 160 after killing 115 of the Hypaspistai. Although expensive they should be more than a match for a unit of Thoratikai Agyraspidai(one of the games toughest inf units) And far more deadly then their Peltasti bretheren. Although it depends on how much money you have, because for the same cost you could have 2 units of the Peltasti. The other aspect is the historical accuracy of how many units of one type you should have in an army(incase this matters to you).

[Tellos Athenaios]

I myself find the mean guys from Kappadokian Hills and the greater East to be particularly suitable for some nasty AP surprises. You'd be amazed at how fast one such unit tears a unit of Pezhetairoi apart...

Talk about readily available and cost effective...

[geala]

Harharhar, dear TE, unlike all the other posters (who cannot play EB of course) I agree that the Macedonians are poor little loosers, like all the other factions who have not the direct access to the great, best, first, one and only assault unit in the game: the mighty e l e p h a n t s. :elephant:

I define an assault unit in the only possible way: immediate break of any elite and uberelite unit in EB = elephants. All the mentioned other "attack" (hrhrhr) units plus, let's say, Hetairoi, let them be the original weaklings or the cataphractic dilettantes, are just grotesque imitations of the true assault force (you know, elephants). So of course to compare Macedon with Epeiros is to compare a male cow with Juppiter, you know, like in "Quod licet Jovis,...".

Don't play Macedon, play Epeiros, if you want to see an assault unit. :turtle: :tnt: :charge: :horn: ---> :elephant:

[Sakkura]

Akontistai > elephants.

[Digby Tatham Warter]

Harharhar, dear TE, unlike all the other posters (who cannot play EB of course) I agree that the Macedonians are poor little loosers, like all the other factions who have not the direct access to the great, best, first, one and only assault unit in the game: the mighty e l e p h a n t s. :elephant:

I define an assault unit in the only possible way: immediate break of any elite and uberelite unit in EB = elephants. All the mentioned other "attack" (hrhrhr) units plus, let's say, Hetairoi, let them be the original weaklings or the cataphractic dilettantes, are just grotesque imitations of the true assault force (you know, elephants). So of course to compare Macedon with Epeiros is to compare a male cow with Juppiter, you know, like in "Quod licet Jovis,...".

Don't play Macedon, play Epeiros, if you want to see an assault unit. :turtle: :tnt: :charge: :horn: ---> :elephant:
True, but they need extra, extra care and they cost an army.

[beatoangelico]

Akontistai > elephants.

sad but true :laugh4:

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Makedonian army = Terminator army. The only real weakness the Maks have is their ridiculous L3 government with 20% happiness penalty.:furious2: