What\'s the funny thing about MTW [Archive]

andrewt

09-11-2002, 15:17

Like it or not, France is equated with poor strategy and tactics in war. You got your ass kicked in both World War I and II and it was the U.S. being sorry for you that you also lost against Vietnam that dragged them into that stupid war. Even in medieval times, you lost a lot of wars when you both outnumber your opponent and have better equipment and technology. Aside from Napoleon, France hasn't had much luck with good generals. Good equipment, high technology and well trained troops are nothing unless you know how to properly use it.

I've been to France, England and Italy and I can't say with a straight face that the French were the nicest of the bunch but I guess they are still better than England's weather. It rained the entire time I was there and I've heard from other sources that that wasn't unusual.

Draksen

09-11-2002, 15:18

I dont know for France. I have bought my game, here, in Finland last week. (I live here)

You can perhaps (just an idea) order it (internet). no?
Or do you really want/need that translated version ?
I have had, with other games, problems with hte translated versions, because the name of units/skill or whatever were in french and it was difficult to understand the forums (the english speaking forums ...)
That's why I prefer english versions for the games.

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

Draksen

09-11-2002, 15:33

Quote Originally posted by andrewt:
Like it or not, France is equated with poor strategy and tactics in war. You got your ass kicked in both World War I and II and it was the U.S. being sorry for you that you also lost against Vietnam that dragged them into that stupid war. Even in medieval times, you lost a lot of wars when you both outnumber your opponent and have better equipment and technology. Aside from Napoleon, France hasn't had much luck with good generals. Good equipment, high technology and well trained troops are nothing unless you know how to properly use it.

I've been to France, England and Italy and I can't say with a straight face that the French were the nicest of the bunch but I guess they are still better than England's weather. It rained the entire time I was there and I've heard from other sources that that wasn't unusual.[/QUOTE]

FIRST:
***YOU*** have lost the Vietnam war ! please don't blame us for that ! seriously, it is stupid.

SECOND :
Napoleon (if u want to talk about him) ruled almost 100% of Europe and a part of North Africa... nothing more to say here...

THIRD :
William the Conqueror (Guillaume Le Conquerant was his REAL name) was Duke of Normandy, a french province, and vassal of the King of France (!!!) and ...
King of England after 1066 ...
once more, nothing more to say here ...

FOURTH : I admit that WWII was not that great for France (shame on us) but ... don't talk about WW I. Or if you really want, read 2 or 3 book about it, and then post , ok ?!

5TH : and perhaps the most important point for u. Without France, your July the 4th would have been : NOTHING, NADA, NIENTE, ZERO , DANS LE CUL LA BALAYETTE ... hehehe
remember it.

France has always assisted the USA during its short and young history.

6TH : 80% of the medieval (and modern) military vocabulary is french.
Also ALL your military ranks in the USA are french names :

Corporal => caporal
sergeant => sergent, "les gens qui servent, ser-gent"
leutnant => lieutenant, "celui qui tient lieu de ..."
Colonel => Colonel, "chef de la colonne"
.......

Read books and study history before posting.

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

[This message has been edited by Draksen (edited 09-11-2002).]

andrewt

09-11-2002, 15:45

Ok, you are from Normandy, didn't notice that at first. I'll concede that Normans make good generals.

Vietnam was a French colony that gained its independence by beating the French army. The U.S. tried to help but it ended in disaster. Our president back then didn't know how to withdraw after the U.S. got entangled in that war. He's still brighter than our current idiot, but then again, who isn't.

All I know is that the French helped us mightily by selling us a big track of land for such a ridiculously low price because of the war in Europe. It's where we keep most of our own religious crackpots right now.

I am not well versed in U.S. history having immigrated here a few years ago for college. Judging from what I've heard, U.S. history isn't very interesting anyway so I haven't missed anything important. It's much better than Philippine history anyway. Our history is full of stupid decisions. We could have been a U.S. state or even just a territory like Puerto Rico or Guam but decided a long time ago that we would rather run our country like hell instead of letting the Americans run it like heaven. I just escaped from hell.

P.S. It also feels like hell here in SoCal recently but at least it's much better than in Manila.

Shumeisan

09-11-2002, 16:53

Mhhh
What can I say ?
I can just insist on what already said Draksen Read books and study history before posting such such remarks on France.

ie you could just start by a click on a nice link on the org main page : Internet Medieval Sourcebook (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html)

And a quick look at the family trees of the European nobility (and royalty) should also widen your point of view on medieval Europe.
ie : Royal Genealogies (http://genealogy.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ac.wwu.edu%2F%7Estephan%2FRulers%2F)

btw I suggest that you should also read some books on :
- the Vietnam War
- the American Civil War of Independance

P.S: Vivement que MTW sorte en France !

Draksen

09-11-2002, 16:55

ok. Thank you for your posts and replies http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

MTW is a great game and forums like this one give us the possibility to talk about history. Internet is a good tool too.
French, Americans and others, we have ALL one thing in common : the passion for this game, and that why we are here http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

best regards from Normandy, France, Europe.

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

Draksen

09-11-2002, 16:58

"P.S: Vivement que MTW sorte en France ! "
Patience, patience ... lol

PS: je t'ai dit de l'acheter a l'etranger et de le commander a l'etrnager ... tu serais deja dessus a l'heure qu'il est. lol http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

Draksen

09-11-2002, 17:09

From the Medieval sourcebook" :

"Note that area we know as France is so central to medieval
studies that sources relating to its history are scattered
everywhere in the Sourcebook."

mmm... what did you say about France ? huh ?

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

Shumeisan

09-11-2002, 17:13

Juste une remarque sur ton blason : je ne vois pas les armes et la langue en azur http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

*clic*

Just a remark on your blazon: I don't see the weapons (? claws) and the tongue in azure
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

PS: vi vi je sais j'hésite vu que certains site mettent une sortie en décembre, d'autres le 13/09 d'autres le 21/09... I will wait and see http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Shumeisan (edited 09-11-2002).]

Draksen

09-11-2002, 17:21

"Juste une remarque sur ton blason : je ne vois pas les armes et la langue en azur
"

mmm... correct. Mais bon, c'est la description "officielle" du blason.
Pour le terme "armé", je me demande si cela ne veux pas dire : "en position d'attaque"... à fouiller. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Par contre, pour l'azur, la langue des léopards est bleue ... normalement... lol ... gasp

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

[This message has been edited by Draksen (edited 09-11-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Draksen (edited 09-11-2002).]

Shumeisan

09-11-2002, 18:05

un petit lexique héraldique (http://membres.lycos.fr/paleographie/heraldique/lexique.html)
*working on his blazon...*
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Kalt

09-11-2002, 19:08

Quote Originally posted by Draksen:
FIRST:
***YOU*** have lost the Vietnam war ! please don't blame us for that ! seriously, it is stupid.

SECOND : (etc etc)
[/QUOTE]

#1 Dien Bien Phu: enough said. The French controlled southeast asia until they were dealt humiliating loss after humiliating loss and the French finally abandoned its southeast asian colonies. The USA only moved in as the French departed in order to keep the northern communists out of the south. FYI the French were also repeatedly humiliated in Algeria.

#2 Napoleon's successes involved mostly luck and his overall army design than any tactical genius. In many instances fortunate timing saved Napoleons forces from disaster. While Napoleon marched THROUGH Europe with a large army and into Russia, he never controlled the bulk of Europe and that campaign ended in disaster and defeat. While he conquered Eqypt, he only had to face the then-weak mamelukes, and he still managed to get his fleet destroyed by a decisive British raid.

#3 Large tracts of what now comprises France have not necessarily been considered "french" historically. Many ethnic minorities exist in France even today who do not consider themselves French. Outlying areas that long ago were not truly "French". The fact that those areas like normandy might now be within France's borders does not mean the normans in ancient history were "French" because they were not. At the time, they were Normans.

#4 France was losing world war 1 and would have lost it entirely but for the aid of the UK and the USA. Without aid, Germany would have easily overcome France in a one versus one war.

#5 France's aid to the USA in the revolutionary war was purely self-serving. France helped the USA purely to weaken and embarass the UK. While France's aid sped things up, the american rebels held their own even BEFORE French intervention, and even defeated the British at Saratoga. While it would have been a costlier victory, American independence from the UK was as much an inevitability as Vietnamese and Algerian independance from France. The notion that the USA would not exist but for French help is the hubris that Americans have come to expect from the French.

#6 And most all Western vocabulary is derived from Latin and Greek, so what? This point of yours has no relevance to French martial skill whatsoever. The French have always expended considerable effort in trying to spread their language and culture. Sadly, French martial prowess has never been a match for French notions of cultural superiority.

AND NOW FOR MY OWN POINT:

- De Gaulle soured US relations with France unilaterally. He resent that the USA was the leader of global democracy in the cold war and did all in his power to frustrate the USA's foreign/economic policy, even though we put him in power and were expending considerable resources to deter Soviet aggression (which would have easily overrun France if the USSR ever attacked). De Gaulle made it 'cool' to hate the USA, and since his reign the American public and French public have been involved in a love/hate relationship. The truth is that both our nations are democracies and have significant mutual responsibilities to ensure that our nations set a positive example for the rest of the world.

However, the French are so caught up in trying to exert cultural superiority over other Western nations that they forget we should be on the same side. Like modern Russia, France longs for the old days of glory and power achieved in Napoleon's time, and even though the world has left them behind, France refuses to accept its role as a junior partner of the USA. Instead of being a lesser ally, France prefers to remain an adversary: because at least then we have to pay attention to them!

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

dancho

09-11-2002, 19:13

LOL... this is like some kind of Saturday Night Live skit.

Kalt

09-11-2002, 19:13

Hey andrewt I didnt know you were in SoCal, so am I! And yes, it has been waaay too hot here lately but Im sure it will get cooler in November, only 2 months to go.

p.s. The original poster was making fun of the AI, not France. However, the fact that he likened the AIs battlefield incompetence to that of the French is actually funny because it is true.

p.p.s. I have my 4 year degree in history and political science from a university so do not tell me to "read history" Im sure I've read more than whoever would utter that comment.

ltj

09-11-2002, 19:29

ok, this thread rocks. continue.

Kalt

09-11-2002, 19:36

Oh and of course France is central to medieval studies: it is the geographic center of Western Europe.

France has also been the most populous European country for most of the last 1000 years. On paper, France should have been to Europe what China was to East Asia.

The funny part is that they weren't. The English humiliated them at Crecy and Agincourt. The revolutionaries humiliated the French royalty. Napoleon humiliated the revolutionaries (and the revolution itself). The Russians humiliated Napoleon's (on paper) superior army. Loose alliances of other powers (english/prussians) eventually humiliated Napoleon's greatest troops. Throughout the 1800s revolution after revolution humiliated whomever was in control of France at the time. In 1870 the Prussians humiliated the French in the one-sided slaughter known to history as the Franco-Prussian war. The Germans humiliated the French in World War I by pushing deep into France before the USA and UK drove the Germans back. The defeated and weakened Germany within 20 years was able to return from the ashes and humiliate France once again: their only true opposition being the British Expeditionary Force! The Vietnamese humiliated the French at Dien Bien Phu, as well as many other less-decisive engagements. The Algerians humiliated the French, despite France's liberal use of torture (well documented). And finally, French humiliated themselves by silently condoning torture in Algeria, then only recently arresting and putting on trial one of their most distinguished veterans (who happened to admit to making use of torture). A man arrested not because what he did was wrong, but because his admissions did harm to French prestige.

So if you are shocked that someone might associate incompetence on the battlefield with the French, maybe you shouldn't be.

Arkatreides

09-11-2002, 19:41

*wonders how long it will be before this thread is shut down*

*taking bets now!* http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Varus

09-11-2002, 19:50

History is merely the set of lies agreed on by the victors.

Kalt

09-11-2002, 19:54

Quote Originally posted by Draksen:
FIRST:
***YOU*** have lost the Vietnam war ! please don't blame us for that ! seriously, it is stupid.
[/QUOTE]

I almost forgot: the United States never once was defeated in battle in Vietnam. While the Tet offensive made gains at first, within a matter of hours the offense was utterly crushed and driven back, and the NVA never again attempted a large-scale invasion of the south while it was under the protection of a significant US ground forces.

If the United States had chosen to fight on in Vietnam, we could still be going strong even today. Unlike the French, the US could have protected south vietnam indefinitely. The reasons the US chose to abandon the defense of Vietnam were political, not military. From a military standpoint, the USA won the Vietnam War.

But despite the US military victories, Vietnam was a political struggle. In the end, the USA abandoned Vietnam because the American public was sick of Vietnam. The voters of the USA did not want to waste US lives and dollars on a corrupt, backward government that was never able to maintain control of even its own borders but for direct US assistance. The ONLY thing the US stood to lose was pride, and unlike France, the USA can sometimes swallow its pride.

Vanya

09-11-2002, 20:05

GAH!

France...

It gave us the Statue of Liberty...
It gave us the Frog Legs delicacy...
It gave us the $200 bottle of champagne...

GAH!

What is not to like? (Other than the rude waiters that taunt non-English speakers in French?)

GAH!

Want to offend a French restauranteur? Just ask for some ketchup to splatter all over his masterpiece!

GAH!

Vanya's only problem with the French is there hydrophobia. One time in Paris, a bastid crossed in front of Vanya... the stench was so... so... hideous and caustic... that even Vanya's long lost head could smell it from where ever it happens to lie. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif With that, Vanya leaves y'all with a public service announcement: Give a Hooty, wash that booty!

GAH!

Stevie D

09-11-2002, 20:33

I love MTW. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Only yesterday, playing as England, I hosed the last bastion of French resistance down with sheet upon sheet of arrows from my jolly old longbows.

I grinned so much, the sides of my mouth actually hurt. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Shumeisan

09-11-2002, 21:01

$200 bottle of champagne !!! gasp !

For the rest I will only say :
- in medieval times it's well known that French Knights an general were incompents on the battlefield... *swallowing my pride http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif* If you remember Crecy and Azincourt you could also remember Castillon for example where the Hundred Years War came to an end...
- Napoleon was a lucky general... And Wellington a great stratege.
- "On paper, France should have been to Europe what China was to East Asia" Mhhh do you really know where France is located ? And what was France Kingdom around 1000 ?
- On a military point of view Algeria was not a defeat for France... And for sure US never used torture nor dioxine...

Perhaps could we discuss by e-mail of the other points with some developped arguments because I am not sure that this discussion has its place in this forum.

btw if I ever loose a game in a MTW campaign vs a 10x biggest and richest army than mine I will made a post here to say that it should have an American faction in the game http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

mikecoch

09-11-2002, 21:31

[A MAN appears on the battlements. ARTHUR addresses him.

ARTHUR

Hello.

MAN

'Allo. Whoo is eet?

ARTHUR

I am King Arthur and these are the Knights of the Round

Table. Whose castle is this?

MAN

This is the castle of of my master, Guy de Loimbard.

ARTHUR

Please go and tell your master that we have been charged by God

with a sacred quest, and if he will give us food and shelter for

this night he can join us in our quest for the Holy Grail.

MAN

Well, I'll ask him, but I don't think he'll be very keen.

He's already got one, you see?

ARTHUR

What?

GALAHAD

He says they've already got one!

They are stunned.

ARTHUR

Are you sure he's got one?

MAN

Oh yes. It's very nice

+

+ CUT TO BATTLEMENTS. THE TAUNTER (MAN) turns to some others.

+

+ MAN

+ I told him we already got one.

+

+ They all giggle.

+

ARTHUR

Well ... can we come up and have a look?

MAN

Of course not! You are English pigs.

ARTHUR

Well, what are you then?

MAN

I'm French. Why do think I have this outrageous accent, you

silly king.

GALAHAD

What are you doing in England?

MAN

Mind your own business.

ARTHUR

If you will not show us the Grail we shall storm your castle.

Murmurs of assent.

MAN

You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your

bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called

Arthur-king, you and your silly English K...kaniggets.

He puts hands to his ears and blows a raspberry.

GALAHAD

What a strange person.

ARTHUR

Now look here, my good man!

MAN

I don't want to talk to you, no more, you empty-headed animal,

food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. You mother

was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

GALAHAD

Is there someone else up there we could talk to?

MAN

No. Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time.

ARTHUR

Now this is your last chance. I've been more than reasonab...

+

+ MAN

+ Fetchez la vache!

+

+ GUARD

+ Quoi?

+

+ MAN

+ Fetchez la vache!

sorted

09-11-2002, 21:39

For sale one french WW2 rifle, unused, dropped only once. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by sorted (edited 09-11-2002).]

marlboro

09-12-2002, 00:21

Your father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries. I fart in your general direction!

"Mothy Python and the Holy Grail"

CeltiberoSkullXIII

09-12-2002, 00:33

Returning to then thema of this post:

i think the funniest thing on MEDIEVAL are the bugs http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!" http://gifanimados.ya.com/terror/calaveras_banderas/flag_wht_blkbns_clr.gif

Dionysus9

09-12-2002, 00:39

Ok, ok, I'm calling a truce between the US and France.

Yes, thank you for loaning us your fleet at Yorktown. It came just in time for us to win the Revolutionary War, and it is appreciated. I believe we have repaid the debt a la WWI and WWII.

Yes the French suffered incredible losses during WWI, and should be commended for attempting to stand against the Germans--- but the Maginot line was a big mistake...SO easily flanked.

Yes the French stalled too long in WWII and were eventually forced to retreat and surrender due to lack of preparation and initial involvement. If the US had gotten involved sooner, perhaps the French would have been able to stand and fight. The entire world is responsible for letting Hitler get away with rapid expansion, and we can't blame it all on France.

Yes, we took over Vietnam from the French. It was a mistake for both countries. Neither the French nor the US should have been in Vietnam to begin with.

One thing that can be said in favor of the United States is that (recently at least), when we've won a war, we generally return the land to the original occupants with only a half-hearted attempt to install a puppet government.

Anyway, as much as I like to make fun of the French-- they are our allies, and they have helped us in the past, and will in the future.

andrewt

09-12-2002, 00:48

At least the French can play Medieval. The Greeks have to wait before that stupid law (recently declared unconstitutional) is abolished.
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20020908

andrewt

09-12-2002, 01:09

French peasants (Jeanne d'Arc, French revolution, resistance movement in WWII, even Napoleon I think) have always been better commanders than French nobility or whatever you call the ruling people are.

Sometime after WWII, French politicians (somebody mentioned de Gaulle) made it a habit to carp and bitch against U.S. foreign and domestic policy. They made it cool in France to bash anything American and be rude to English speaking people. After a while, Americans decided to start bashing back.

France and the U.S. are still close allies and will help each other in times of war. It's at times of relative peace where we have nothing better to do that we will continue to keep bashing and insulting each other.

DrD

09-12-2002, 01:44

As a French-American (my dad was born and raised in France and I have alot of relatives there)I know a good bit about both countries and truthfully I think France and the French are great! Sure, nobody's perfect, but the food, the wine, the tradition of long, family meals without TV (often outside), the education system, the parental discipline/involvement with their children, the slower pace of life, the longer vacations, the lack of guns, and the general joie-de-vivre are all things I wish America would emulate. We (Americans) are also very puritanical about alot of things which always makes my French relatives laugh (Clinton's sexual peccadiloes for example.)

As for military history, I think France gets a bit of a bum rap. I think in WWI they were heavily outnumbered on the Western Front initially. Remember the miracle of the Marne? I don't remember the details but I think it was a significant piece of work. WW2 is tough to judge, who knows if any army could have stood up to the German Blitz in 1940. I seem to remember that the French divisions on the West Front in 44-45 were as good as any other allied troops.

BTW, the guy that started all this hasn't been back, I think he was just trying to get a rise out of us (it worked!)

As for Anglo-French relations, we've NEVER fought a war against the french (other than some undeclared skirmish-type stuff in the very early 1800's) and have fought togethor 3 times, so I'd say we're tight.

- A francophile American

Shiro

09-12-2002, 02:33

OT...

------------------
"Everything Shiro said sounds good to me."
-Solypsist

sorted

09-12-2002, 03:29

And thiery henry is a bit good too!

takkran

09-12-2002, 03:56

i didn't read all that is wrote in this topic but i see that is about french
Let me tell you something about them
their biggest hero Napoleon was italian
their biggest fotball player was italian (Platini) their gratest player now Zidane is from Africa or something as most of their atlets no mater what sport even the winter sports and gimnastic So the french are not a great people they are slaves... good only in the kitchen.

TheLordofWater

09-12-2002, 07:08

WHY OH WHY OH WHY DO I HAVE TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY OF FOOLS FRENCH PEOPLE ARE COOL, (i like their language)

spmetla

09-12-2002, 14:46

William the Conquerer was of Danish/Scandinavian origin. The king of france fought against him then lost.And then willy conquered england.

Every single war since Napoleans time has been an embarassment to the french.

The French helped the US once(revolutiary war) not once since. But we've bailed you guys out a few time.

And for the record I am 17. I've been studying the crusades and the normans for the past 4 months( i realize this isn't all too long). I have lots of french blood so its not that I have things against the french. Its just that I read your other post about americans infesting the forums and it really pissed me off.

And it just isn't wise to insult Americans in a UK, US dominated forum. Remember that we still remember what we did for you WWI and WWII.

And lastly, I never thought to see this much of a response to my stupid reply.

[This message has been edited by spmetla (edited 09-12-2002).]

spmetla

09-12-2002, 14:58

Quote Have you been in France ?
Do you know french people ?
I think that u have a lot of things to learn, little american.
Your behaviour is simply PATHETIC.
Poor you.
[/QUOTE]

Yes I have been to France. I knew some french but one of them died mountain climbing and they can't visit hawaii anymore.

And remeber the medival history is very much a part of the US too. Seeing as most of us Americans are decendants of Europeans.

It was your anti-american US attitude that prompted my flame. If anything you are the pathetic person and what more you then whine for getting flamed for your flame.

el_slapper

09-12-2002, 15:22

Yeah, US-France relations are not simple. The usual tendance is to forget the good things & remember the bad ones. For example, you'll find some crazy Texan cowboys in the states. Most french believe that every yankee is so, or worse... In France, you'll find some antisemitic old bastards. Most americans believe that every froggy is so, or worse!!!

The fact is that we have no other choice but being allies, despite our differences. So get cool you all, it's pointless to say "we are good, you're evil". We all are bipedal beings, we all are equals!

------------------
War is not about who is right, only about who is left

Belisarius

09-12-2002, 15:49

I am sick and tired of Yankee - Europe bashing.
Quote Originally posted by andrewt:
French peasants (Jeanne d'Arc, French revolution, resistance movement in WWII, even Napoleon I think) have always been better commanders than French nobility or whatever you call the ruling people are.
[/QUOTE]
What about?
Arthur de Richemont?
Jean de Dunois?
Gilles de Rais?
La Palice?
Pierre Bayard?
Claude de Guise?
François de Montmorency?
Louis de Condé?
Henri de Turenne?
Lous Hector Villars?
Bernhard De Saxe?
Louis Nicholas Davout?

And the Americans best generals didn´t even fight for the USA, other then as junior officers.

When it comes to martial history, no country other the China comes close to matching the French. Period.

The US "saved" the French during WWII. But the war was won on the Eastern front. And it was Churchills fault that the French surrendered (ask and I will explain)

The French fought and died during WWI, when the yankees still sat at home. To say that the US "saved" the French in WWI is like saying that France "saved" the US in the Revolution.

ShadeWraith

09-12-2002, 16:17

Quote When it comes to martial history, no country other the China comes close to matching the French. Period.

And it was Churchills fault that the French surrendered

[/QUOTE]

Is this some kind of wind up? French martial history is nothing to boast about and as for Churchill being responsible for their pitiful performance in WW2....you just have to laugh http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Wraith

Draksen

09-12-2002, 16:27

De KALT :
France refuses to
accept its role as a junior partner of the USA.

wuhahahahahahahaha ...
psst. Hope that u are not serious ??? mmm ???

France is now part of EUROPE. European Union.
And u will have to count with us, little armerican. hahahaha.

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

Draksen

09-12-2002, 16:40

"William the Conquerer was of Danish/Scandinavian origin. The king of france fought against him then
lost.And then willy conquered england. "

yes... yes ...
the grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grand father of Guillaume Le Conquerant was a viking ... yeah great ! ... that is a Scandinavian origin, a pure Nordic blood. Yeah !

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

Draksen

09-12-2002, 17:11

Quote Originally posted by DrD:
As a French-American (my dad was born and raised in France and I have alot of relatives there)I know a good bit about both countries and truthfully I think France and the French are great! Sure, nobody's perfect, but the food, the wine, the tradition of long, family meals without TV (often outside), the education system, the parental discipline/involvement with their children, the slower pace of life, the longer vacations, the lack of guns, and the general joie-de-vivre are all things I wish America would emulate. We (Americans) are also very puritanical about alot of things which always makes my French relatives laugh (Clinton's sexual peccadiloes for example.)

As for military history, I think France gets a bit of a bum rap. I think in WWI they were heavily outnumbered on the Western Front initially. Remember the miracle of the Marne? I don't remember the details but I think it was a significant piece of work. WW2 is tough to judge, who knows if any army could have stood up to the German Blitz in 1940. I seem to remember that the French divisions on the West Front in 44-45 were as good as any other allied troops.

BTW, the guy that started all this hasn't been back, I think he was just trying to get a rise out of us (it worked!)

As for Anglo-French relations, we've NEVER fought a war against the french (other than some undeclared skirmish-type stuff in the very early 1800's) and have fought togethor 3 times, so I'd say we're tight.

- A francophile American[/QUOTE]

Thx for your post http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

After all, this US-France match is always a fight of :
cowboys vs. medieval knights
coca cola vs. red wine
McDonalds vs. cuisine francaise

YES ! YES ! and YES!
You are the best. The best of the world.
All what you have done, all what you do and will do is perfect.
Thank you americans, thank you.
God save your great nation !
hurrrraaaa

(you feel better now?)

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

Vlad The Impaler

09-12-2002, 19:17

lets not forget that the americans doesnt have so much wars on their teritories; is good to knoe that the relatives are safe back home; and lets not forget that isnt easy to face the germans; american & british forces have an huge material superiority in WWII and the war against Germany was won in the East by the Sovitet`s Army and in WWI the french were hit first and the best power by the german armies;
and in medieval times..Charlemagne made the first western emipire; he unite a world of ignorants that almost destroyed the great roman civilization;
then..french fight great in crusades ;or if not great , at least they fight as well as the others christian involved;
and after all event the marines say that the Legion Etrangere is one of the best if not the best;
french nobility disastrous in Wars?
but what about the deafeats of english against the Zulu? i know is a story when a besieged fort was aprovisoned with biscuits instead of ammo;those british soldiers were very confident in their succes until they opend the boxes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
and as i recall the british officers at that time were nobles too isnt it ?remember Idlashawana ( i dont know if i spell corectly)-my point here is not to flame but to remember that we can find if we look for it bad examples

i think is pointless to judge the military skill of a nation in this kinda way

and Napoleon wasnt only a general;he made great laws and his code of laws is used even today in almost all Europe ;i talk about common napoleonic law;also the ideea of uniting whole Europe i think it was his ;
he was very inovative in the educational system as well
I think that part of his opera should be judged at his true value because as he said he had only just one adjustement of military art: the change of operation line during the campaign
so i see him as a bigger political & administrative ;his civilizational part of opera remains thru hundreds of yrs;war becomes just history for military or a few that are pasionate about ;

this are just a few of my observation cause i also ( despite i am not french ) was deranged from the silly and subjective cosideration about french`s skills in wars;

------------------
One sword to behead the white ruler sitting on the white throne in the Vatican.
One sword for the ruler who will come and unite us under the sign of the cross
with broken arms. Eleven swords to behead eleven lords and rulers of the land
united under the blue banner. A hundred swords to defend our southern
boundaries against black plague and half moon.
And one axe for me to defend my stronghold, and may I call this axe, "Bane of
Christendom" soon.

Vlad The Impaler

09-12-2002, 19:32

oh damn i forgot about Custer http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
One sword to behead the white ruler sitting on the white throne in the Vatican.
One sword for the ruler who will come and unite us under the sign of the cross
with broken arms. Eleven swords to behead eleven lords and rulers of the land
united under the blue banner. A hundred swords to defend our southern
boundaries against black plague and half moon.
And one axe for me to defend my stronghold, and may I call this axe, "Bane of
Christendom" soon.

Belisarius

09-12-2002, 21:27

Quote Originally posted by ShadeWraith:
and as for Churchill being responsible for their pitiful performance in WW2....
[/QUOTE]
I did not say that, I said that it was Churchills fault that France surrendered.
Saying that France surrendered because of her performance on the field of battle, is like saying WW2 was won when the US entered it, an oversimplification.
France surrendered when Petain became President.
Petain became president when Reynaud was forced to resign.
Reynaud was forced to resign due to a vast opposition in the cabinett on a proposal he made.
The proposal was originally engineered by W.S Churchill.
What was the proposal? That the UK and France merge into a union.
Why was the proposal rejected so fiercly that Reynaud was forced to resign? The cabinett felt that it was a badly concieled attempt by the Brittish to get control of the French colonies.

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"The forces of evil will appluad me
as I stride through the gates of hell,
carrying your head on a pike"
-Murray

khelvan

09-13-2002, 00:15

The reason, that I have found, for Americans being looked down upon during their foreign travels is their insistence on being arrogant about America's superiority. Hence the sort of discussion you see here. Most Americans take the view of "your country sucks, and I'm going to tell you why" which is based on the firmly entrenched belief that "my country is the best."

There is a difference between patriotism and arrogance. The sad this is that many Americans don't see a difference.

I am an American. Born and raised...your typical American mutt (Eastern European, British Isles melange). I have lived for a time in both Canada and France. I have seen America from the eyes of a foreign citizen. In the streets and bars of Paris, I could pick Americans out by their manners. I no longer wonder why we are treated badly as tourists.

Who cares who won what war? Does it matter? The Americans were no more of a benefit to France in WWII than the French were during the Revolutionary war. Which is to say we provided assistance, but nothing which was decisive.

WWII was lost for the Germans in the strategic decisions they made during Barbarossa, resulting in a failed drive on Moscow (rather than taking more strategic targets), and more importantly, the battle of Stalingrad. Stalingrad happened in the latter half of '42, when American support was the relatively worthless lend-lease program and the very beginning of the Allied bombing campaign of Germany.

Make no mistake, the blood of millions of Russians soaked the battlefields that won the war. The only difference America made with the invasion of Normandy was in deciding where the lines of control would be drawn after all was said and done. It was our own complacence which made the Eastern campaign as bloody as it was. If America had joined Britain earlier in the war and attacked/bombed, millions of Russians would have survived. America should thank Russia for winning the war while we sat on our butts.

America has had a tendency of waiting until everyone else has done the hard part (died) in wars, and then stepping in to "save the day." (Ahem) America has essentially treated her allies as cannon fodder. And folks wonder why America is not getting all the support she wants in attacking Iraq?

If the rest of the allied nations treated foreign policy much the same way America has in the past, they would have simply told the US that terrorist attacks were not their problem (as we lost building after building, plane after plane) until half of America was filled with smoke and blood, and we'd rooted out most of the enemies ourselves...then they would step in to 'help.'

Not very attractive when you look at it this way, is it? Remember, there is always another perspective on world events. One which may lead you to say things which are a bit less jingoistic.

-Khel

JRock

09-13-2002, 00:18

Quote Originally posted by Draksen:

Why do you flame France in a forum dedicated to a "medieval/middle ages game" ?[/QUOTE]

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Do you even have to ask that? Everyone knows French people have major egos and a dislike for foreigners, mostly due to their history of losing Paris to the Germans every 50-or-so years and needing foreign help to get it back.

Focus on the MTW discussion, not French people, because talking about French people will just lead to lots of flames and anger because most French people suck.

Someone move this to Off-Topic because this thread no longer has any value in the MTW forum.

(Btw, the Paris comment is just a joke the rest of the world has about the French.)

[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 09-12-2002).]

spmetla

09-13-2002, 00:45

Quote Charlemagne made the first western emipire; he unite a world of ignorants that almost destroyed the great roman civilization;
then..french fight great in crusades ;or if not great , at least they fight as well as the others christian involved[/QUOTE]

The french half of Charlemagnes empire died and became the HRE which lasted for 1000 years.

Don't get the crusades into this, there were so many stupid mistakes made by every country that participated.

Yes yes WWII was won one the eastern front, but why then was there a french resistance. Didn't you want for the soviets to liberate your country? Oh right the soviets were just as bad as hitler and would have kept going through the rest of Europe if it wasn't for US involvement in the war.

And lets not forget that if the US wasn't involved the Soviets would have been attacked on the East by Japan. There would have been no trucks and planes and bullets and tanks and all that other war material in the EARLY part of the soviet offensive. Without these materials it is doubtful that the first offensive would have had any results.

If it wasn't for the constant threat of a US/UK invasion of mainland Europe and the US/UK bombing campaign good ol' Adolf would have gladly moved all those troops(20+ divisions) and Luftwaffe bases (3 full Luftflotten) over to the Eastern front which could have made more than enough of a difference.

But the french helped too. THe French resistance supplied critical upto date maps of German troops, key bridges and supply depots before and after D-Day. The resistance helped hid US and UK agents working in Europe.
The French were resupplied with US tanks,guns, and other equipment and fought galently against some of Germany's best troops(including the 2nd Pz) and the Crack Tank Recon Battalion run by Col. Hans von Luck.

And as you know I am American. I put down the US all the time for obvious oversights and stupidity like not ratifying the Kyoto treaty, and all this stupid propaganda about Iraq being a threat.

But I am also European because I was born and spent the Early part of my life in Innsbruck Austria. This has made me proud of my history enought to keep up with current events across the US and Europe along with study indeepth a history of both continets with the European history being my favortie.

So please don't consider me as some stupid american back country yokel who gets his worldly opinions from watching WWF wrestlig or something.

el_slapper

09-13-2002, 02:06

Stay Coooooooooooooool you all!!! and remember that each one does errors. We french did many, as not controlling Hitler's weaponry while it was possible, or 15 years earlier crushing their economy after the war instead of helping it. You yankees did many too, and are mainly known by the way you think the rest of the world is full of freedomless inferiors.....

In other words, stop ranting. You are no better than your counterpart. You are only different. Whoever you are, Yank, Froggy, Zulu, Japanese or Iraqi.

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War is not about who is right, only about who is left

Draksen

09-13-2002, 02:13

"Do you even have to ask that? Everyone knows French people have major egos and a dislike for foreigners, mostly due to their history of losing Paris to the Germans every 50-or-so years and needing foreign help to get it back."

Don't speak about french. Please, don't make u more ridiculous than u already are. You don't know them, how can u speak about them. Your behaviour is interesting.

Germans ... invasion of Paris by the Germans during Middle-Ages... ah yes... yes, very interesting...

"Focus on the MTW discussion, not French people, because talking about French people will just lead to lots of flames and anger because most French people suck."

How can you play MTW or feeling concerned with OUR history ? I mean , Europe's history ... mmm? Suggest to CA, a new Totalwar : Ranch:TotalWar, with the mighty cowboys, and the Cocacola catapults... yeah ...

But, hey, you are right. You have also a great medieval history. I should have remembered the Chivalric Order of NewYork and the well known Medieval Cathedrale of Boston.... oh, and yes, the famous Chateau Fort de Californie.... oh, yeah ...

No, seriously. How can u write such things.

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

Sanpedrito

09-13-2002, 02:25

If you don't mind my saying so, I think we need to get back to the basics. The focus is on Medieval times... I love all those American supporters out there but, the great and powerful USA did not even exist when all this (MTW) happened. So, lets get back on track if you don't mind.

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Pain is temporary, but honor is forever !!!

Draksen

09-13-2002, 02:27

ok. It is wizer like that. I agree.
Merci beaucoup.

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

Osbot

09-13-2002, 03:41

I'd just like to comment on one thing.

France, England, and Canada fought the Germans in WW1 as the western allies. The USA did not get involved untill Germany was on the brink of defeat.

Here is an analogy, you know those spagetti bridges that engineering students build in competitions? Think of Germany as one of those bridges, England France and Canada alone are enough to slowly crumple the bridge...Just when the bridge was about to break, a 2000 pound Gorilla named the United States of America decides to pile on. The bridge instantly crumbles under the added weight.

Not to say that the US wouldn't have been a major help earlier in the war, but to say the US saved France, when the war was winding down is kind of lame. I look at it this way, the USA saved alot of young German boys and old German men that hadnt yet been conscripted from hitting the trenches.

JRock

09-13-2002, 04:08

Man no one cares about all this stupid talk - SEND THIS TO OFF-TOPIC PLEASE - nothing in this thread has anything to do with MTW anymore and it's just some silly French guy trying to defend his country. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

takkran

09-13-2002, 05:33

Bine Vlade zi-le la frantuji ca au o greata in ei de put mai rau ca tiganii nostri!!!

takkran

09-13-2002, 06:19

oh i forgot about legion etrangere if the french are so "great fighters" why they need foreigners for? to do their dirty job? And we all know that the legion is the only good part of the french army except maybe for the weapons. it's the same thing as in sports they don't know how to do one thing right and need help with so many african atlets. in a century or two our sons will see a better france in wars and sports of course a black france. it is the only way. I think almohads will be very hapy. did you notice that all the good at war nations have great atlets?

Draksen

09-13-2002, 11:13

JRock,

Thank you for your unteresting replies.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

A stupid guy defending his country... ?
You don't like France, French people, ... great. We dont like you and often we don't like the USA, but are pleased to live on the same planet than you, hamburger-eaters, cause you give us often good reasons for a good laugh.

Merci les américains pour être si ridicules, merci du fond du coeur. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I now understand why for you, JSuck, euh... sorry, JRock, tolerance and respect are difficult... probably because they are french words : Tolérance et respect.

You have proved your limits.

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

Crimson Castle

09-13-2002, 11:34

The next time the Germans decide to invade France. I suggest we let the French take care of themselves.

If our troops had known the French would hate us so much, they wouldn't have bothered landing at Normandy to liberate France in June 6, 1944.

Swatter

09-13-2002, 12:25

I really dont have anything against the French or anyone else for that matter, but what I cannot understand is anti-americanism in France. Many thousands of American boys never made it home from France in 44-45. We just werent figthing the Nazis, we were giving the French people their freedom back. So many Americans died in your country figting for you. Next time those anti-american feelings begin to well up in you, remember those vast cemetaries in your country full of American boys who never made it back to thier families. You owe them more than a small debt.

Ddraig_goch

09-13-2002, 13:45

Good point, whatever the politics of the American Involvement in both world wars, I doubt the average GI cared much about them. He was there to liberate France (and Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg).
One point I have to make though is that the Normans were not French per se, Normandy was occupied by the Danes/Vikings only 100 years before the Battle of Hastings. France as an entity did not really exist then as it does now, in much the same way as there was no Great Britain/UK.
Also there were a lot of Aussies and Kiwis fighting the Germans too...along with Belgians, Italians, Russians and Portugese (believe it or not).
I have no truck with the fact that The American Army contributed invaluable to the final defeat of Gremany in both cases...it is correct, I just wish they wouldn't keep reminding us of it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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"Don't be disgusting Darling!! I wouldn't lick a German if he were glazed in honey!"
Gen Melchett
Blackadder goes fourth

Shumeisan

09-13-2002, 14:02

Even if it's not the place to discuss about that. I have to say that if there is some anti-american feelings in France, it's not from the majority of the French (max 10% and for those it's mainly the "We are the light of the world and we will bring you this light" attitude of some americans US/company that is involved in such feelings ... )(An article in French (http://www.sofres.com/etudes/pol/070102_antius.htm)

And the sacrifice of all the boys of all the nations which participated in the liberation of France is in the heart and in the memory of many of frenchies http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif (especially americans, canadians and english (UK people)... )
But you also have to remember that they were also fighting in the interest of their own country... (That doesn't decrease of anything the duty memory that we owe them.)
Personally I also keep in memory all those german soldiers who died in our country and
who were not necessary "happy" to fight for Hitler...

el_slapper

09-13-2002, 15:11

Concerning the "legion étrangère"... more than 1/2 are... french! They are recruited as Belgians, swiss, canadians, or even gaulish(sp?), but they are french!!! I know one, in my family, who neared death at the Igman mount. Sure their number dropped since many experimented eastern Euros went with their warfare knowledge, but they remain the more numerous.

Concerning the athletes : hey, they are french too. Not since much? Look at America : the non-immigrants(aka the amerindians) are scarce! people's composition is changing, not only in France, but everywhere in Europe - Berlusconi the rightist even gave legality to 400 000 illegal immigrants recently!

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War is not about who is right, only about who is left

eldaran

09-13-2002, 15:19

Right then. Can we PLEASE call a halt to this now? If you like, go and start a France Vs USA thread in OT, instead of turning a legitimate MTW thread into one.

[This message has been edited by timmy (edited 09-13-2002).]

NinjaKilla

09-13-2002, 16:11

Apologies if I just took the bait - I'm properly hung over and by reading and typing I'm trying to clear my head. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Quote Originally posted by Kalt:
#2 Napoleon's successes involved mostly luck and his overall army design than any tactical genius. In many instances fortunate timing saved Napoleons forces from disaster. [/QUOTE]

I presume you're referring the 'As-t-il de la chance?' quotation that has been acredited to him. Nevertheless, saying that Napoleon success was down to luck is a pretty outlandish comment. What's more you talk about army design - who do you think was responsible for that?

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)

JRock

09-13-2002, 19:31

Hey look, this stupid thread and stupid Frenchie are still existing in the MTW forum. Can we get a moderator to move/close this thread already? Come on. This forum needs more active moderators.

Draksen

09-13-2002, 21:04

Dear JSuck ...

mmm... no nothing !
I dont speak to stupid persons.

Hey, moderator. Can u ban this stupid racist, arrogant, ignorant person ?
thx http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

JRock

09-14-2002, 03:21

You're the one who can't figure out how to post dumb posts yours in Off-Topic. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Also, French is a culture, not a race. Races are black, white, hispanic, asian, etc.

Try using appropriate insults if you're going to bother insulting people at all.

[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 09-13-2002).]

Draksen

09-14-2002, 03:47

You are right :
French is a culture and USA is a cultu... mmmm....

nooooo.... nooooo, it isn't http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

(Strange cause I personaly have nothing vs US. In fact it is vs. u and only u. You are sooooooo stupid... that's fun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif )

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

JRock

09-14-2002, 04:03

Quote Originally posted by Draksen:
stuff[/QUOTE]

I never said the USA had a specific culture. My point was simple - you called me a racist, but that term is incorrect.

Stop being to arrogant... so typically French.

Learn how to use an Internet forum properly and I wouldn't have an issue with you, because I don't even read the Off-Topic forum so I would never have had to see your silly French threads.

TexRoadkill

09-14-2002, 04:08

Let's not forget all the wonderfull French engineering like that piece of crap automatic rifle they made for WW1 that the US stupidly decided to use instead of the BAR during WW1. There are also those wonderfully engineered french cars like the Citroen.

Actually wtf have the french done in the last 200yrs that was of any significance?

After spending a year working for ClubMed, pissing off frenchies is second on my list only to pissing off the French Canadians. Actually it is number one. At least the Canadians are fun to drink with. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Draksen

09-14-2002, 04:15

Vous n'etes que des crétins. J'abandonne.

Strange : I have heard about that (the US behaviour) but before that have never faced it. I'm sure that there are nice guys in your land.... hey, others, prove that you are better than the two ... how can I said,... rubbishes, that post here just before me. please.
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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

[This message has been edited by Draksen (edited 09-13-2002).]

JRock

09-14-2002, 04:17

Yes, please do.

NagatsukaShumi

09-14-2002, 04:35

I can say one thing, atleast the French invent their own language, not like the Americans who just steal the English language and change a few words and call it their own.

France is a nice place, my Dad lives their.

But as an English Man I must always smile when I think of the little Agincourt and Crecy battles, I can't resist smiling at the French's failure at us Brits hands http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Sorry, I'll stop.

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Power to the Sultan!
-Clan Seljuk

I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi

NARF

09-14-2002, 04:46

for god sakes, ITS NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL. Non of us FOUGHT these battles, we dont know, SHUT UP, AHHHHHHHHH. here we go, we both rule, end of story

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What is it that makes a complete stranger dive into an icy river to save a solid gold baby? Maybe we'll never know.

Draksen

09-14-2002, 04:48

Hi all!

Do you know if France has won any battle vs England during the 100yrs war ?
(I have now a history book but I havent had time to read it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif ... not yet .... I will check this during the week-end. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif )

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

[This message has been edited by Draksen (edited 09-13-2002).]

NagatsukaShumi

09-14-2002, 04:51

Whoa cool it NARF, obviously I was never in one of these battles, if I was then god I'd be extremely old.

And everyones knows the English can't help getting a few kicks into the French, blame the ancestors of us English for that.

And yeah, arguments over who's countries best gets a bit stale, and NARF I was only joking.

------------------
Power to the Sultan!
-Clan Seljuk

I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi

Draksen

09-14-2002, 04:57

As english is not 100% natural to me (far from it ... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ) I have difficulties to separate "real talking" and joking....
mmm...
not easy in a foreign language ... not easy at all. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

spmetla

09-14-2002, 08:22

Quote I can say one thing, atleast the French invent their own language, not like the Americans who just steal the English language and change a few words and call it their own.[/QUOTE]

We don't call it American, we call it English. The English you speak we call the Queens English.

And Draksen you do converse quite well in english. But one correction. We don't ever say persons, but people.
so it be:
I don't speak to dumb arrogant ignorant people.
Instead of :
I don't speak to dumb arrogant ignorant persons.

NagatsukaShumi

09-14-2002, 15:01

Sure, some of you call it English, I have asked a few Americans what language they spoke out of curiosity and most said American, and Queen's English? That makes us all seem like Drag Queens!

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Power to the Sultan!
-Clan Seljuk

I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi

Draksen

09-14-2002, 15:15

Thx for correction.
I will try to write better and correct my english grammar.... aaahhhh, so much to learn ... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

This forum is a good exercice for me!

As for the french language, I don't think that we have "invented" it. It comes mainly from 'Latin/Greek/Celt' languages, and little by little becomes "french"...

For example, I am not able to read a french text from the 11th or 12th century. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
I can perhaps recognize one or two words in the text, but nothing more.

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

Mount Suribachi

09-14-2002, 15:38

Quote Originally posted by Kalt:

p.s. The original poster was making fun of the AI, not France. However, the fact that he likened the AIs battlefield incompetence to that of the French is actually funny because it is true.
[/QUOTE]

stupid double post

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We speak of deep night, deep autumn; when I think back to the year 1943 I feel like saying "deep war"
Ilya Ehrenburg

[This message has been edited by Mount Suribachi (edited 09-14-2002).]

Mount Suribachi

09-14-2002, 15:43

Quote Originally posted by Kalt:

p.s. The original poster was making fun of the AI, not France. However, the fact that he likened the AIs battlefield incompetence to that of the French is actually funny because it is true.
[/QUOTE]

hahahahahahaha. I can't beleive this thread is still going

This thread was much funnier on the 1st page when the insults were flying back and forth.
Page 2 was a boring, serious history debate, then it descended into a childish slanging match

"you're an ignorant racist!"

"no, you're an ignorant racist!"

"no, you're an ignorant racist"

Why on Earth hasn't this thread been closed or moved OT?

Finally, in my game of MTW by 1170, France has been reduced to Flanders and are about to be overrun by the elmos - which proves scientifically, historically, irrefutably, that the French are useless!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif End of arguement (no posts about that being a French word either)

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We speak of deep night, deep autumn; when I think back to the year 1943 I feel like saying "deep war"
Ilya Ehrenburg

Draksen

09-14-2002, 17:08

"French are useless"

Yes they are. Sooooo useless. I feel useless too. Sooooo useless... I have never been sooooo useless.
Thx.

Great to be useless. I like it.

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

JRock

09-14-2002, 19:42

Quote Originally posted by NagatsukaShumi:
I can say one thing, atleast the French invent their own language, not like the Americans who just steal the English language and change a few words and call it their own.[/QUOTE]

The original "Americans" WERE English, genius. They already spoke English. A few words changed over time as did the accent, just like in Australia for example. Besides in America we still call it English, so we don't call it our own. There is no "American" language.

Mount Suribachi

09-14-2002, 21:46

Quote Originally posted by Draksen:
"French are useless"

Yes they are. Sooooo useless. I feel useless too. Sooooo useless... I have never been sooooo useless.
Thx.

Great to be useless. I like it.

[/QUOTE]

Draksen, that comment was meant to be humour, not a dig. I will admit to enjoying good natured banter between different nationalities. This thread decended into name calling due to the lack of context you get in the faceless forum and language barriers. Although maybe your reply was humour also rather than bitter irony, but it doesn't seem so. Many of the posts have been good-natured banter, but not everyone seems to have realised this.

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We speak of deep night, deep autumn; when I think back to the year 1943 I feel like saying "deep war"
Ilya Ehrenburg

Draksen

09-15-2002, 01:36

ah, ok. It was humour. I have a lot to learn. I can't recognize humour in english, or have difficulties to do so... sorry. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

spmetla

09-15-2002, 01:46

Quote Sure, some of you call it English, I have asked a few Americans what language they spoke out of curiosity and most said American, and Queen's English? That makes us all seem like Drag Queens[/QUOTE]

Those were the stupid americans that aren't supposed to interact witht he world outside of their tv room.

Well your ships can change sex everytime you have a different ruler. His majesty's her majesty's.

Actually it's nice that this thread as slowed down. I orignally participated because i thought it funny which it still is.

solypsist

09-15-2002, 02:22

this looks like an OT thread, to me. (where it will promptly be closed due to flaming)

NagatsukaShumi

09-15-2002, 04:26

Ugh, I know the early Americans were English I am not that stupid dude. And I am not arguing with you people, I don't argue on the internet plainly because I see it as pointless.... oh one last thing

BAH!

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Power to the Sultan!
-Clan Seljuk

I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi

Pachinko

09-15-2002, 04:45

Soly. Please due!

JRock

09-15-2002, 05:03

Quote Originally posted by NagatsukaShumi:
Oh one last thing

BAH!

[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah?! I raise you a "GAH!" http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

LittleGrizzly

09-15-2002, 19:53

LittleGrizzly

09-15-2002, 20:13

Quote Originally posted by Alita:
The next time the Germans decide to invade France. I suggest we let the French take care of themselves.
[/QUOTE]

the next time america gets attacked by anti-american terrorists maybe we should let america take care of it themselves...

SKD_Navy

09-15-2002, 20:39

quoted from LittleGrizzly Quote the next time america gets attacked by anti-american terrorists maybe we should let america take care of it themselves... [/QUOTE]

your kidding right?
America DID take care of themselves. They DESTROYED the taliban in a matter of weeks. Please don't try and tell me that the french helps us with that.
On a similar note, when the problems with kosovo were raging IN EUROPE.
WE were the ones that did everything, not even the europeans. So don't give me that about france helping us, becuase they haven't done it for 200 years. And since then we have saved there *butts* in two world wars. Ya thats right, we saved them, the Germans were killing the french, and if it wasn't for AMERICAN soldiers landing in europe at 140,000 a month they Germans would have won the war.

[This message has been edited by SKD_Navy (edited 09-15-2002).]

[This message has been edited by SKD_Navy (edited 09-15-2002).]

solypsist

09-15-2002, 20:53

Hey I like the French. Whether or not we "saved" them from this or that war is irrelevant: French culture would have endured, much in the way the Spanish language and culture survived the Moslem rulership for hundreds of years. We'd still have French cooking, French women, wine, and all that art, it might even be safe to say the French might have conquered the occupying Germans, but with steak frittes instead of of by physically occupying a city by force.

Draksen

09-15-2002, 22:55

France and USA are friends/allies.
That's a fact.
You can't change it. I can't change it
(and I don't want to ... oh no ! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif )

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http://www.saosnois.com/blasons/blason-normand.gif
"De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre."

Jon von

09-16-2002, 01:55

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SKD_Navy:
America DID take care of themselves. They DESTROYED the taliban in a matter of weeks. Please don't try and tell me that the french helps us with that.
On a similar note, when the problems with kosovo were raging IN EUROPE.
WE were the ones that did everything, not even the europeans.

Everything? What do you mean for "everything"? The thing that makes a big part of you americans so dumb is that you are so convinced (or to better say, the government and who controls the mass media have convinced you) that the things you do are the right things!! So do you think that your army is spread all over the world to resolve someone else's problems?! Or perhaps is the business and the interests of your (and my) fucking society that lead your (and sometimes my) country to make war to help us ("poor europeans, they really can't save their asses without us") or to help other foreign countries? Are u sure you have DESTROYED talibans (congratulations, are you so pride to have bombed hundreds of civil innocents trying to punish these phantomatic terrorists?) "to protect freedom and democracy" in the world? If you really think so, please watch less tv and read some history books. Or just think when you're playing MTW. It can teach you that wars have never been made due to ideal/romantic/religious reasons, there are ever more materials matters.
And about this french vs. yankee rumble... Great personalities and great generals are born in every country and in every people. France got Napoleon, USA got Nimitz, Germany got Rommel, Italy got Julio Cesar, UK got Trafalgar and so on... even every country has got his own period of greatness and supremacy (Victorian era for UK, actual one for USA, Napoleonic era for France etc) and even of decadence.
The most part of the guys involved in this discussion is proud of his contry more for its military successes than for its culture or other things. But I'd like to remember that in the war wins who is even more aggressive, bloody and liar.

P.S.: Charles The Great, who "united a world of ignorants" and built an Empire, was an analphabet...

Jon von

09-16-2002, 02:10

"France surrendered when Petain became President.
Petain became president when Reynaud was forced to resign.
Reynaud was forced to resign due to a vast opposition in the cabinett on a proposal he made.
What was the proposal? That the UK and France merge into a union."

Don't forget Petain had the support of the most part of the middle and high bourgueise that saw in Reynaud a red threat. In other words: a lot of French supported a nazi goverment because they were afraid of the communists.

TC27

09-16-2002, 02:28

The Americans certianly helped alot in winning WW1 but they did not prevent the Germans from winning, effectively the germans had lost as soon as the the Western front got bogged down in attritional warfare which they were bound to lose.

The American military involvement probaly shortened the struggle by one maybe two years as it basically forced the Germans try and destroy the British and French armies before the Americans became a real presence, the resulting offensive saw most of the elite German storm divisions efficively destroyed and allowed british and Canadian troops to launch the counter attacks that forced the Germans to the negotiating table later that year.

Shumeisan

09-16-2002, 15:23

Please, move this thread OT...
As Draksen was wondering... I will just add that French finally won the "Guerre de Cent Ans". The last battle vs English was the battle of Castillon (1453), a French Victory..

Jeanne d'Arc, Du Guesclin helped a lot in the liberation http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif of the french territories. At the end of the war, Bordeaux, Normandie were french... And in 1557 Calais came back to French Kingdom... Ask to Marie Tudor http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Before la guerre de cent ans, the epic battle of Bouvines was a great french (vs la perfide Albion) victory ...
And the crusades were mainly the fact of the French (saying it short http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif)

I also have to add that whithout Shakeaspeare, the american/english would not have such a memory of Azincourt...

I could also add that until Henry V the french was the official language at the royal court of England http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif