Mine in Pella

[Kepper]

Is there any reason for Pella don't star it the first level of mines working, in the cite, after all much of the fortune of Filipe is because of the Macedonias mines.

[Treverer]

"Che dici?" Tosca, Atto III

-- Now seriously, what are you asking? I did not understand your post.

T.

[Malik of Sindh]

He is asking why theres no mines at the start of the game in pella.

[Treverer]

@ Malik of Sindh:

thank you for translating this ... T.

@ Kepper:

The mine in Pella is (together with Dalminion) one of the best in the Area. I guess that's the reason why it's not build at the start. Getting the 1,800 mnai (IIRC) every turn from the start would make it too easy for the human player (either as Makedon or Epirote, to a lesser extend as KH) to dominate the Greek/Makedon/Thrakian region.

Yours, T.

[Maksimus]

If there were no mines in Pella working for about 50 years before Macedonian expansion into Asia - there would be no expansion at all..

So, from the historic side those mines should be working full - even Antigonos Gonatas counted on those mines badly.. And Demetrias and Monoftalm too and most of all Philip II.. If there weren't for those mines around Pella, Philip would have never prepared his army to reach Indus, even true, he would have no resources to make an army of his own.. and Alexander could just dream Babyllon
And still, those mines made his state and army!

So, yes.. I am sorry for the game balance... but there should be .. for sure .. just a small-tiny mine there.. I will make one there in my mod...:beam:

[Kepper]

But they have many starting forces and 1ª level of mines in Pella will give you a bust of 1800 mm is almost noting compare it a cost of having Elephant it Epirote and the big army just next to Athene's.
Sorry about my bad English.

[Treverer]

But they many starting forces and 1ª level of mines in Pella will give you a bust of 1800 mm is almost noting compare it a cost of having Elephant it Epirote and the big army just next to Athene's.
Sorry about my bad English.
First: no need to apologize! English isn't my mother-tongue too.

Second: I cannot tell you anything about Makedonia, as I played them only once back in 0.81v2.

But for Epiros: Yes and no.
- Yes, it would be nice to have these mnai.
- And no, as IMHO the Elefantes are only needed in turn one to conquer both Makedonia and Thessalia. Afterwards, their cost/use is near zero, as 1. they are practically useless against stonewalls and 2. the conquests of Dalmatia & Dardanoia need more troops than you have at turn one. The upkeep of the Elefantes will ruin you (and the one of your fleet too, btw) if you wait for a bigger army. "Elefantes are more than just 'wall-breakers'!" Right, they frighten enemy troops, which is IMO their BEST ability/strength. But is it worth the money at that point of the game? IMO no, not after the conquest of both northern Makedonian territories.

As I stated in other posts before, the starting position of Epiros is rather strong, if a Human is playing them! And the possibilities to expand and consolidate are given, the chance that Makedonia & KH are concentrating on each other are given too, and the budget of Epiros is quickly balanced and is making a good profit after one or two years.

To resume: IMHO, there is no need to give Pella a mine1 at the start. EDIT: at least from an "Epirote point of view".

Yours,
Treverer

[Thaatu]

The celts sacked the place thoroughly. After that I'd imagine, with the hectic situation involving Pyrrhus and Antigonos, it took a while to re-establish state managed mining.

[Maksimus]

I think that even Pyrros took some of that gold.. but the point is I think that he run down to Sparta so he could not exploit that more - Gonatas did... and he did use that mined gold even when he needed it while at Athens and to renew Pella to some point - without those mines - there were be no Macedonian's .. in a way..:shame:

[Danest]

Doesn't Eb usually choose historical accuracy over "game balance"? if a faction was weak or strong, or held the mightiest mines on earth historically, then so be it!

[Bava]

Doesn't Eb usually choose historical accuracy over "game balance"? if a faction was weak or strong, or held the mightiest mines on earth historically, then so be it!


Well, partially true, but there are some aspects of the game where balance > accuracy. With the mining centers in Pella up and running, Maks would steamroll everyone and their mother and we´d need a calculator to count all the "OMFG!!!! Maksendiona IS overPowered!!111!" threads.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Even more so: suppose we gave every faction precisely the means they historically got? That means:
1) Most factions get their most elite units right from the start;
2) Lots of factions would need fully developped civic infrastructure;
3) There's no point in playing the game anymore - the entire game aspect is lost.

So as far as units go, or buildings go we can be as picky as we want... And we are...

But as far as the 'campaign' aspect goes there's hardly anything we can do without seriously ruining the fun. Even provincial backwaters could end up big bloating & massive + very well developped from the start.

[Thaatu]

I don't know how many players out there play because they want to build infrastructure. I for one am all for settlements to start as they were in the period.

[Kromulan]

You'd have to seriously nerf the mines @ Pella to NOT have it ruin your game. You'd miss the frantic "Can I take ____ before I run myself too far in debt to _____", "Just N more turns of building nothing to get enough cash to build the mine. . . hope they don't attack before then"

[Danest]

I wonder how many EB players are playing the mod because they like to build an infrastructure? I DO like the ability to improve a town, though, but I'd think there had to be some of that going on historically. But I suppose without the city management, all we'd have is a series of battles that could have probably just been imagined in custom battles.

[Maksimus]

Even more so: suppose we gave every faction precisely the means they historically got? That means:
1) Most factions get their most elite units right from the start;
2) Lots of factions would need fully developped civic infrastructure;
3) There's no point in playing the game anymore - the entire game aspect is lost.

So as far as units go, or buildings go we can be as picky as we want... And we are...

But as far as the 'campaign' aspect goes there's hardly anything we can do without seriously ruining the fun. Even provincial backwaters could end up big bloating & massive + very well developped from the start.

YOU SHOULD DO THAT :yes:
(because if you don't - i will go back to encyclopedias and edit my descr_start.txt myself as I have done it 1000 times before.. offcourse I will post it for everyone)

Even if that means to make 2 descr_start.txt for one's that like faction precisely represented and one's who like fun - and if you EB members are to make a simple thred for fans to vote - .. well.. let me bet that 80% would vote for what Thaatu is saying...

think about it please:shame:

[Spendios]

think bout it please:shame:

No :skull:

[johhny-turbo]

Eh, if you feel that there should be mines in Pella then just process_cq them in

[Treverer]

Eh, if you feel that there should be mines in Pella then just process_cq them in
Haha! Right you are! :2thumbsup:

(what a simple & brilliant sollution ... <sight>)

T.

[konny]

I wonder how many EB players are playing the mod because they like to build an infrastructure? I DO like the ability to improve a town, though, but I'd think there had to be some of that going on historically.

Me too. I love this aspect of the game.

On the other hand I would like to have more "reasonable" starting armies especially for the factions that are at war. In this sense, the Romans are seriously overpowered because they can raise about everything they have in this periode right from the start, while for example KH has to build, and build, and build before they can even show her enemies a simple outdated Iphikratian Phalanx or a good old Hoplite.

[O'ETAIPOS]

There should be NO mine in Pella at the start. No, definately there will not be mine until I have control over it.

Makedonian position is already too strong now. They were on the edge of colapse, If Pyrrhus was more patient he will advance against remains of Antigonid power in Macedonia instead rushing to Sparta and finis them in year or two

Before Pyrrhus death Antigonids controled only SE and E part of Province of Macedonia most probably. Moreover the whole country was in ruins after civil wars and especially Galatian invasion that happened just 6 years before start date. Antigonos was not able to gather macedonian levy guys. He was fighting with forces composed of mercenaries and as many macedonians as he can find (they were just ired of constant wars. They wanted at that point sit calmy in home and try to get something from demolished fields.

as mak king you have to rebuild the Macedonia first. at that point in was greatly depopulated (alexander took some 30000 men, diadochi wars and civil wars took even more. and then the celts came...)

Majority of mines were closed, some are mentiond to be opened by Philip V - 80-90 years deep in game timeframe. the few still working are giving you profit from the trade. And this must be enough before great investments can be put into opening more mines.

[Thaatu]

Hmm, maybe I should take the 'Pseudo' off of my title.

[Maksimus]

No :skull:
You cruel people
:hmg:

[Treverer]

@ Maksimus:

Dear sir,

what stops you from changing the respective txt files? You can easily modify them so that Pella has a mine1 at the start (and whichever settlement should have one too), so that every capital has a facMIC5, so that every regMICs are usable to every faction?

But:

- don't complain when the bigger & wealthier factions are steamrolling either you or the weaker neighbours with MIC4 or MIC5 units, and

- not game related, please use a more friendlier tone and don't use smilies that may offend.

Yours,
Treverer

[Mad Hoplite]

@ Maksimus:

please use a more friendlier tone and don't use smilies that may offend.

Yours,
Treverer

I can't see any offensive smiley in his post. Besides I don't think there's even such a thing in the org.

[Danest]

All right, I see... Maks were certainly not historically in a super-rich situation. It's as if the mines were there before the time period, but someone sacked them. :)

[Maksimus]

It is a joke... you know.. I have no intention to do bad
I like Spendios, and all EB members!

[Hax]

You don't like me, do you?

Well, the answer I guess is pretty obvious: gameplay reasons =P

I'm Epeiros obsessed, and I don't want the Makedonian warmachine to get fueled even crazier. I remember spending one campaign winning Heroic victories on the Ambrakia/Demetrios border.

Good times man, good times...

[Maksimus]

You don't like me, do you?

Well, the answer I guess is pretty obvious: gameplay reasons =P

I'm Epeiros obsessed, and I don't want the Makedonian warmachine to get fueled even crazier. I remember spending one campaign winning Heroic victories on the Ambrakia/Demetrios border.

Good times man, good times...

Oh.. I like you even more! I play my Epeiros campaign a long time now...
But I can not pass the 4 times in arow CTD after one battle against Dacia..

[ross1025]

what exactly is the historical truth? was there mining works at 272BC or did most of them already be sacked?

i dont care the "game balance" thing,i just want to play a most historical-realistic game(that's why i love EB so much),so whatever positions the factions were,just let them be. overpowered or underpowered, nothing could be complained about, because that's what they acutally were at 272BC.this is a historical-simulation game,not balancing-game such as starcraft(although i love SC too).

i wanna change my stat.txt, but i'm not majored in history and not very familiar with modding, could anyone here help me do that? as i saw many guys above have the intention to do a more-historical stat.txt,including the acutal finacial positions and well-developed infrustructure and the elite troops. would you share it please? thanks in advance!

finally,as a new commer here,i'm not intent to offense anyone,and i'm not english-speaker,so please don't get any misunderstanding from my poor english(if they have any confusing statement).anyway,i love EB a lot,thanks all EB members for your great work!

[Maksimus]

what exactly is the historical truth? was there mining works at 272BC or did most of them already be sacked?

i dont care the "game balance" thing,i just want to play a most historical-realistic game(that's why i love EB so much),so whatever positions the factions were,just let them be. overpowered or underpowered, nothing could be complained about, because that's what they acutally were at 272BC.this is a historical-simulation game,not balancing-game such as starcraft(although i love SC too).

i wanna change my stat.txt, but i'm not majored in history and not very familiar with modding, could anyone here help me do that? as i saw many guys above have the intention to do a more-historical stat.txt,including the acutal finacial positions and well-developed infrustructure and the elite troops. would you share it please? thanks in advance!

finally,as a new commer here,i'm not intent to offense anyone,and i'm not english-speaker,so please don't get any misunderstanding from my poor english(if they have any confusing statement).anyway,i love EB a lot,thanks all EB members for your great work!
You should just read this EB members post


Even more so: suppose we gave every faction precisely the means they historically got? That means:
1) Most factions get their most elite units right from the start;
2) Lots of factions would need fully developped civic infrastructure;
3) There's no point in playing the game anymore - the entire game aspect is lost.

So as far as units go, or buildings go we can be as picky as we want... And we are...

But as far as the 'campaign' aspect goes there's hardly anything we can do without seriously ruining the fun. Even provincial backwaters could end up big bloating & massive + very well developped from the start!

[Thaatu]

You probably mean this post:


There should be NO mine in Pella at the start. No, definately there will not be mine until I have control over it.

Makedonian position is already too strong now. They were on the edge of colapse, If Pyrrhus was more patient he will advance against remains of Antigonid power in Macedonia instead rushing to Sparta and finis them in year or two

Before Pyrrhus death Antigonids controled only SE and E part of Province of Macedonia most probably. Moreover the whole country was in ruins after civil wars and especially Galatian invasion that happened just 6 years before start date. Antigonos was not able to gather macedonian levy guys. He was fighting with forces composed of mercenaries and as many macedonians as he can find (they were just ired of constant wars. They wanted at that point sit calmy in home and try to get something from demolished fields.

as mak king you have to rebuild the Macedonia first. at that point in was greatly depopulated (alexander took some 30000 men, diadochi wars and civil wars took even more. and then the celts came...)

Majority of mines were closed, some are mentiond to be opened by Philip V - 80-90 years deep in game timeframe. the few still working are giving you profit from the trade. And this must be enough before great investments can be put into opening more mines.

[Maksimus]

No... I realy meant the Thellos post.. I think he had a more 'forthcoming' idea about EB game vision and development.. that would suit me more however:yes: ... and I would realy like to see proff about those closed mines.. -- you don't acctually have a diary of some Greek miner or ruler that 'someone scked and closed all mines' until somene reopend them in 100 year time and even if they were closed - THE MINES IN PELA EXISTED at that time .. and to reopen them does not mean to build a new mine - that means to put miner back to work again -or even illyrian or thracian miners- that worked in Macedonian and Greek mines a long time before Alexander.. and as far as general history note -- mines were never closed - the gold mines in special even with some 10 out of 1000 miners...

[L.C.Cinna]

you realize that the game has certain limits right?

There are things which can't be represented by this game.

Makedonia was a country depopulated and devastated by war
Try to view the mine you're building as the process it would take to reopen, bring up to full production, secure transports and whatever else. :wall:

[Pharnakes]

Exactly.

Besdies, in those days it was easy to burn down mines. Even just neglected mines would collpase fairly fast.

[Maksimus]

you realize that the game has certain limits right?

There are things which can't be represented by this game.

Makedonia was a country depopulated and devastated by war
Try to view the mine you're building as the process it would take to reopen, bring up to full production, secure transports and whatever else. :wall:

That is realy not an issue... If you look at the Descr_start.txt (the file in where you see what EB team is made for us to have on the Campaign start) -- you can see that Pelle is the only (well in this case) region that 'had population problems and wars before' - the same argument would go for any Successor state and not to say Barbarians - they had no peace situation either.. and they even tend to die in a much lower average life rate (in years) then the Greeks for example.. so even Barbs had population problems.. but thes still have mines.. .. so, I understand EB wish to balance the game they made - but I wont say ok always.. this is just one debate..

And the game has limits.. Foot once wrote about probs that 1.5 engine brought to them by more hardcoded engine.. so :shrug:

[Thaatu]

The only "barber" settlement that has mines from the start is Sarmisze-... the unpronouncable city in Getia Koile province, and that's a rebel settlement. So no, "barbarians" don't have mines in the beginning. But as someone already said, Macedonia was divided in 272 BCE with Pella itself controlled by Epirus.
That alone might wreck some administrative infrastructure.


Btw, TA's post didn't actually answer to anything that ross1025 asked. I just thought the O'ETAIPOS's post gave at least one answer.

[O'ETAIPOS]

No... I realy meant the Thellos post.. I think he had a more 'forthcoming' idea about EB game vision and development.. that would suit me more however:yes: ... and I would realy like to see proff about those closed mines.. -- you don't acctually have a diary of some Greek miner or ruler that 'someone scked and closed all mines' until somene reopend them in 100 year time and even if they were closed - THE MINES IN PELA EXISTED at that time .. and to reopen them does not mean to build a new mine - that means to put miner back to work again -or even illyrian or thracian miners- that worked in Macedonian and Greek mines a long time before Alexander.. and as far as general history note -- mines were never closed - the gold mines in special even with some 10 out of 1000 miners...

True, partially. Those 10 out of 1000 miners produce just enough to be represented by few hunderd minai you get in TRADE scroll. Maybe it would be better to make for ex 5 levels of mines, with lower ones giving only small amount. But as things are now mines represent established mining. And if the king is preoccupied with keeping the throne and repelling invasions/usurpers you do you think he has time to establish mining?

Firs you need to know what you posess and where things are. There was no computer database that king may refer to. He has to send representatives to find out places where mines were before (and it may not be easy if area was ravaged by enemy and people fled/were taken as slaves/were killed). esp if this happened some time before your time and everything was reclaimed by forest. In most cases you will work from scratch.

Do you know "mine" can run out in reality? and you will have to find new vein. This requres people who have proper skills, and those were not gain in academia that time(well maybe partially were, but "mining engineer" is the guy who knows how to build mine, and use it effectively not he who finds new resources).

If you loose miners you cant just "train" new. Because there is no one to train them. You need to "import" masters from other place, and they have to become familiar with geology of new area. You have to guard them also, especially if the country is in all the time raided by small or bigger groups of invaders.

some of the mines might fell into hands of nobles and all income is going to theire pockets. you do not antagonise nobles if you have enemies on every border, do you?

We don't know why mayor revitalisation of Macedonia came only during Philip Vth age. Maybe destrucions were such deep that what other kings did was not able to help much, fast.
Maybe they were so occupied with politics, interventions in greek city states and defence of borders of macedonia from yearly raids by thracians and Illyrians that they had no time to think about economy (Philip was "freed" from much of this by Roman peace terms). There might be tons of different reasons. The fact is that macedonian economy shouldn't allow expansion in first 50 years at least.

there are also gameplay reasons:

For Antigonos Gonatas major drainer of income was continous war with ptolemies - ptolemaic navial bases were scattered aroud aegean and because of this Antigonos was keeping strong navy. How would we force you, players to not disband every ship, if there is no navial war thanks to RTW engine not able to handle that?

Then how we will stop you from spamming units if you had money available? In reality there was no population to use. Macedonian manpower allowed no more than 10000 men abroad, and even that not every year but rather like one in 2-3 years (those data comes from begining of Philip V reign).

I want player to rebuild macedonia. I want this so he can fell more like real macedonian kings. Antigonos had not easy time and he was strugling to survive.

[Chris1959]

I know little of Macedonian history at this time, but it matters little if mines were working or were not in 272BC it's what they contributed to the economy.

To use a modern analogy, there are gold mines in Wales their contribution to UK economy is so small as to be nothing. There are gold mines in South Africa their contribution significantly higher.

So I would go with the view that mines probably existed but were producing so little as to be non-existent and need to be built up again.

[Maksimus]

True, partially. Those 10 out of 1000 miners produce just enough to be represented by few hunderd minai you get in TRADE scroll. Maybe it would be better to make for ex 5 levels of mines, with lower ones giving only small amount. But as things are now mines represent established mining. And if the king is preoccupied with keeping the throne and repelling invasions/usurpers you do you think he has time to establish mining?

Firs you need to know what you posess and where things are. There was no computer database that king may refer to. He has to send representatives to find out places where mines were before (and it may not be easy if area was ravaged by enemy and people fled/were taken as slaves/were killed). esp if this happened some time before your time and everything was reclaimed by forest. In most cases you will work from scratch.

Do you know "mine" can run out in reality? and you will have to find new vein. This requres people who have proper skills, and those were not gain in academia that time(well maybe partially were, but "mining engineer" is the guy who knows how to build mine, and use it effectively not he who finds new resources).

If you loose miners you cant just "train" new. Because there is no one to train them. You need to "import" masters from other place, and they have to become familiar with geology of new area. You have to guard them also, especially if the country is in all the time raided by small or bigger groups of invaders.

some of the mines might fell into hands of nobles and all income is going to theire pockets. you do not antagonise nobles if you have enemies on every border, do you?

We don't know why mayor revitalisation of Macedonia came only during Philip Vth age. Maybe destrucions were such deep that what other kings did was not able to help much, fast.
Maybe they were so occupied with politics, interventions in greek city states and defence of borders of macedonia from yearly raids by thracians and Illyrians that they had no time to think about economy (Philip was "freed" from much of this by Roman peace terms). There might be tons of different reasons. The fact is that macedonian economy shouldn't allow expansion in first 50 years at least.

there are also gameplay reasons:

For Antigonos Gonatas major drainer of income was continous war with ptolemies - ptolemaic navial bases were scattered aroud aegean and because of this Antigonos was keeping strong navy. How would we force you, players to not disband every ship, if there is no navial war thanks to RTW engine not able to handle that?

Then how we will stop you from spamming units if you had money available? In reality there was no population to use. Macedonian manpower allowed no more than 10000 men abroad, and even that not every year but rather like one in 2-3 years (those data comes from begining of Philip V reign).

I want player to rebuild macedonia. I want this so he can fell more like real macedonian kings. Antigonos had not easy time and he was strugling to survive.

Ok.. you convinced me to that point.. But why wont you give Army Barrack to Pella at start or Epeiros.. even if there were no population, the abilitiy of those factions to train or have elites is clear - the elites were used by Pyrros and Gonatas - were they not? ..This way, with debth of about -5000 to -6000 minai after the first turn with macedon (for example) you are hardly able to build barracks at all - and with population in pella you can be able to have army bs at the start - and because of the lack of money you are realy able to build elites just after some sacked town (like Athens).. So, why not?:beam:

[cmacq]

living in the american SW i know all too well that mines go boom and bust. first, i'm not sure which mine your referring to. second, is there any one that actually knows the out put of that mine in 272 BC?

http://books.google.com/books?id=dcTexDa4I0kC&pg=PA185&lpg=PA185&dq=philip+ii+gold+mine&source=web&ots=cqTJt6ab0a&sig=F2Pi6ok-Ii6-SzVGowBBUXK9STk#PPA185,M1

i hope these questions help?

[Maksimus]

yes it helps realy... so ... it says alot.. I am reading it right now:book: