View Full Version : Catholic Vs Desert
I'm playing the danes at the moment in the High period campaign.
I've taken the bitish isles, spain, france and most of western europe as well as a few easern provinces and I'm sick of egyptian Jihads so I've invaded the desert areas. As the more veteran players might expect, my untis are suffering badly from fatigue.
What are the best strategies for a Danish Catholic army going into the desert?
What are your fav. units in this terrain? Here are my ideas for the best units of each type to use:
Infantry:
Highland Clansmen
Gallowglasses
Vikings
Woodsmen?
Slav Warriors?
Spears/polearms/halb:
???
Archers:
Vanilla
Arbalesters
Crossbows??
Cavalry:
Spanish Jinnettes
Mounted Sergeants
Mounted Crossbows?
Steppe Cavalry?
Alan Mercenary Cavalry (need to take Kazar/Georgia to get these).
Suggestions welcome.
I'm guessing that given the fact that noone in the desert wears much armour, regular archers may be more effective than Crossbows as they have a much better rate of fire. Arbalesters still rock for their range because I can't get Longbows.
Whats the max armour a unit can have before they start getting fatigue penalties?
I have access to Val +1 Gallowglasses, Highland Clansmen, Woodsmen and Vikings, so I'm thinking that these high offense/low armour units may be my best bet?
What about unit distributions? Mostly cavalry? Mostly archers? Mostly infantry? I'm thinking that it might be worth taking a page from the Golden Horde's book and go heavy on cavalry, mounted archers and foot archers.
Tratorix
11-20-2007, 22:36
Spears/polearms/halb:
???
If you can take(or you already have) Switzerland, get Swiss Halberdiers. They can deal with cavalry and most infantry pretty well, plus they don't wear armour.
I'd take some steppe cavalry, they're great for keeping away those pesky horse archers.Mounted Sergeants work well too. Highland clansmen and gallowglasses are always a good choice. Fast, powerful and no armour to worry about. Just don't let them take any cavalry charges.
I'm guessing that given the fact that noone in the desert wears much armour, regular archers may be more effective than Crossbows as they have a much better rate of fire. Arbalesters still rock for their range because I can't get Longbows.
Vanilla archers=:thumbsdown:
I personally prefer crossbows for their better rate of fire, which helps shoot down horse archers quicker. Arbalests have the better range though, so it's really just a matter of preference.
What about unit distributions? Mostly cavalry? Mostly archers? Mostly infantry? I'm thinking that it might be worth taking a page from the Golden Horde's book and go heavy on cavalry, mounted archers and foot archers.
You'll definitely want plenty of archers and cav. but make sure you have some infantry too. Muslim factions may not have the best infantry, but if you face them with just archers and cavalry, your in trouble. I'd again reccomend swiss halberds, because they can pretty much do it all when it comes to infantry. :yes:
If you can take(or you already have) Switzerland, get Swiss Halberdiers. They can deal with cavalry and most infantry pretty well, plus they don't wear armour.
Any other suggestions? Do shield count towards the Armour penalty in the dessert? If not, Chiv. Sergeants start with 3 armour + shield so they'll probably take some fatigue penalty but not too much. also, they won't be moving much which will hopefully offest the fatigue. I don't have Switzerland yet.
I'd take some steppe cavalry, they're great for keeping away those pesky horse archers.Mounted Sergeants work well too. Highland clansmen and gallowglasses are always a good choice. Fast, powerful and no armour to worry about. Just don't let them take any cavalry charges.
Yes, I'll get some Steppe Cavalry from the eastern european territories, just have to watch the armour upgrades. I have Muscovy producing armour +3, Val +1 Cav at the moment, but I think I'll have to try and get Livonia or Lithuania making Val +1 cav without armour.
Alternatively, I do have a spanish province, Castile I think producing Val +1 cav and +2 weapons but no armour upgrades. Perhaps I should just make Jinettes from here instead? Less charge, but more attack, slightly better defense and just as fast.
I still need to find a good unit to go face first aginst charging cavalry. Feudal Sergeants have low armour, but overall suck anyway and Chiv's might be too heavy. I'm thinking of using Vikings in this capacity. They are easy to replace (conquered provinces can produce them immediately as long as they have a fort), cheap and can deal some decent damage back, plus they have decent morale so are less likely to break under the charge. Given that I can get Armour +1, Val +1 versions from Norway this might be an option. Then the Glasses/Clansmen can come in and do the real damage. Not ideal, but a possibility.
Vanilla archers=:thumbsdown:
I personally prefer crossbows for their better rate of fire, which helps shoot down horse archers quicker. Arbalests have the better range though, so it's really just a matter of preference.
Crossbows fire faster than Arbalesters? I thought they both had the same reload time. Crossbows get off 1-2 volleys before charging infantry closes with them, while normal archers get off 3-4. The main advantage of Xbows/Arb's is their armour piercing, but that's not so much of a factor against low/unarmoured targets.
Against horse archers, wouldn't regular bows be better most of the time given that Mounted archers tend to have little/no armour?
If X-Bows fire faster than Arb's, but not as fast as regular archers I'd look at them instead but their inability to shoot from behind other untis limits their effectiveness for me.
Also, should I use Pavise X-Bows/Arbs or regular ones? Does their Pavise shield mean they will take a bigger fatigue penalty?
You'll definitely want plenty of archers and cav. but make sure you have some infantry too. Muslim factions may not have the best infantry, but if you face them with just archers and cavalry, your in trouble. I'd again reccomend swiss halberds, because they can pretty much do it all when it comes to infantry. :yes:
Hmm, what to use when you don't have Swiss Halb's.....Vikings, as mentioned earlier or perhaps...Militia Sergeants? 3 armour, 3 defense, 2 armour piercing attack and 4 charge means they can dish out some damage but will survive longer than Vik's?? Only problem is low morale.
Ok so I'm thinking overall I'll go for a standard army something like:
2 Artillery (demi culverin most likely)
2 Mounted Sergeants (closest to heavy Cavalry)
1 Royal knights (my 8* General)
2 Vikings/Militia Sergeants (grunt centre troops)
2 Steppe Cavalry/Spanish Jinettes
4 Gallowglass/Highland Clansmen
3 Archers (2 x Arbalest (Pavise?), 1 x Vanilla/Horse Archer/Mounted xBow?)
Most people frown on including artillery, but I've found it quite handy. When I invaded Morrocco, I set up 3 Demi Culverins on a ridge just in front of my main army. while my force marched up the ridge and took position, the cannons pounded away at the waiting enemy. With a valley dividing us and archer support deployed on the ridge, they sat there and took about 10 volleys of cannon fire before deciding to retreat without a fight. No losses to me, about 50 for him, I sieged his castle in 2 turn and took then province with hardly a drop spilled.
Tratorix
11-21-2007, 01:13
Any other suggestions? Do shield count towards the Armour penalty in the dessert? If not, Chiv. Sergeants start with 3 armour + shield so they'll probably take some fatigue penalty but not too much.
Chiv. Sergeants will probably cook in the desert. Just marching ovr to the enemy will probably tire them out. You might be able to make feudal sergeants work, but you'll have to use them to pin the enemy and flank them.
Alternatively, I do have a spanish province, Castile I think producing Val +1 cav and +2 weapons but no armour upgrades. Perhaps I should just make Jinettes from here instead? Less charge, but more attack, slightly better defense and just as fast.
Jinettes should work if they're fast enough. Fairly good in melee with javelins to give them some versatility.
I still need to find a good unit to go face first aginst charging cavalry. Feudal Sergeants have low armour, but overall suck anyway and Chiv's might be too heavy. I'm thinking of using Vikings in this capacity.
You might be able to make vikings work, just watch out for any heavy cav. If you're not careful your vikings will just get run over.
Crossbows fire faster than Arbalesters? I thought they both had the same reload time. Crossbows get off 1-2 volleys before charging infantry closes with them, while normal archers get off 3-4. The main advantage of Xbows/Arb's is their armour piercing, but that's not so much of a factor against low/unarmoured targets.
I think crossbows do fire faster, but i'm not exactly sure :sweatdrop: .
You might be able to make regular archers work, but don't count on them to do much damage to the enemy.
Hmm, what to use when you don't have Swiss Halb's.....Vikings, as mentioned earlier or perhaps...Militia Sergeants? 3 armour, 3 defense, 2 armour piercing attack and 4 charge means they can dish out some damage but will survive longer than Vik's?? Only problem is low morale.
Militia sergeants are armoured and have low morale. Bad troops to form your front line in a desert.
You definitely wants to bring as many Viking as possible. Here is why:
1. You play Dane, can't you not be Vikings? :inquisitive:
2. What is good for snow is generally good for desert:
Charge 3 Attack 3 Defence 0 Armour 2 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 4 Cost 175 Support cost 38
The armour 2 is a bit heavier than the normal desert units such as Ghazi (which pratically is naked) but that's the best you can get. Vikings also have shields, good against those Eastern Armies who has a lot of bows.
Compared to Woodmans for example, the Vikings have Morale 4: you only need to get them a 4 stars general (elevate them to excellent morale 8) or a 2 stars general (to elevate them to the good morale of 6). Woodmans have morale of -2, they will run away at the slightest hint of trouble.
(Woodsmans' stat: Charge 8 Attack 1 Defence -1 Armour 2 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale –2 Cost 75 Support cost 22)
Swiss units are not available until Late (a factor to consider). Swiss Pikemen
(stats: Charge 4 Attack 2 Defence 2 Armour 2 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 6 Cost 525 Support cost 48) has same armour rating and slightly higher morale. But since it comes from only Swizerland, you need to wait years to produce a sizeable army, or depends on the wimp of recruitment availability.
Swiss aromoured Pikemen has good stats, but it has armour of 4, making it the league of the FMAA, thus a tad unsuitable for desert fight.
In summary, I believe Vikings are good for your infantry line and will beat any desert infantry. The problem is your cavalry and your missile sections.
If you could get steppe cav (and keep them close by your general to have the 8 stars effect), that would give you some harashing cav, perhaps to flank and to mop up.
Alan cav:
Charge 6 Attack 3 Defence 1 Armour 3 Speed 9, 24, 26 Morale 4 Cost 300 Support cost 50
Alans are mercenaries.
Feudal knights/ Chivalric knights:
Although fatigue makes them fight less effective than normally, they might actually be very useful. Don't always look at armour. The units I recommended earlier could stand their own in any terrain, not just desert (you would need to use them elsewhere too). The knights could be used to conclude the game quickly, a spirited charge into horde of naked infantry would trigger a rout before the knights are tired. For the same reason, Eastern Armies do have heavy cavalry. Not all are naked when in the heat.
For missiles, you are decidedly in a disadvantage compared to Eastern factions. They have a lot of shooting infantry. I would guess you bring some archers, mainly to soak up the arrows before you charge in. The main objective is not to win the range battle, especially if you have the knights at your disposal.
In summary, I believe you would change the way you fight in desert:
1. Don't tire yourself unnecessarily
2. Decisive attack instead of drawn out top-of-the-hill camping
3. Be weary of enemy's missiles
4. Make use of heavy cavalry at the right moment.
5. Have fun :D
Annie
ps.: I forgot one more trick. If you have knights, you could keep them as reinforcement in the 2nd stack. Bring pavise arbalesters: they have the +3 shield, can soak up a lot of arrows. When pav. arb. has done their job, withdraw or rout them, and bring in the knights for the fun. Of course, you would be counting on ability to bring in reinforcements, so you need to scout your opponent army early.
One of the reasons I often include Artillery in my main army stack is to help with the ranged war. Between a couple of Demi Culverin's and a couple of Arbalesters enemy archers have to walk through a fair few incoming missiles.
The cannons usually don't hit, but they do peripheral damage to other units behind the archers, and once the archers stop moving to take aim, the cannons can really start working on them. They've often taken a couple of volleys from the Arbalesters too, so their ability fire back is reduced. They are probably firing back against either vanilla archers, or pavise x-bows, so it's likely that my troops can trade off well.
At this point, I usually let them volley a couple of times then send out my skirmish cavalry. into the weakend ranks, hopefully tiggering a rout.
I do need a solution to opposing heavy cav. thats my main problem I think. Norways Valour +1 Vikings seem pretty attractive as a front line meat shield while my Gallowglases and Highland Clansmen start flanking/attacking enemy infantry.
I could use some Chivalric Knights and dismount them at the start of the battle. this would provide a great answer to enemy heavy cav, but they will fatigue almost immediately.
One more thing though. Vikings are really just watered down Gallowglasses with a extra Morale. would I be better off using the higher attack, higher charge value Gallowglasses over the Vik's?
Yes, Vikings has less charge and less attack but much better morale. You can't always count on your 8-star general's influence for morale boost. Your 8-star general gives +4 morale, adding to the base morale of 4, gives Vikings an 8-morale, an optimum number. The Gallowglasses only have morale of 0, they would run away quite soon. Dependable men are more useful than skillful men who ran away and bring their friends along in a massive chain rout.
Also, the Vikings have a shield, which does help against missiles.
I still vote for one of my favorite units the Vikings.
Annie
macsen rufus
11-21-2007, 14:06
For my desert campaigns I usually just put together a single army to do the fighting, and follow up with a stack or two of "garrison fodder" troops to keep conquered provinces down.
My general rules are: light, fast, ranged
Emphasis on horses and bows, desert warfare is primarily about arrows and speed - steppe cav, hobbies, jinettes are all good, turcopoles if you've got Antioch already. I have nothing over armour 3 or 4, and I leave artillery behind - too heavily armoured, except maybe catapults. Whatever archers you have - vanilla, Genoese sailors, longbows, whatever crops up in the mercenary pool that looks good. ALWAYS try to get your hands on some camels, whether by bribery or as mercs, they really do pay off. For spears I normally just take vanilla spears, ideally with weapon and valour/morale upgrades.
MORALE: generally Muslim troop types have terrible morale compared to even bottom-end catholics, so you tend to win out on that. Send enough spearmen in and they'll just fold on numbers alone ~D
Always, but always send a good general - that's about the most important thing - you want good command, and MORALE boosting vnv's. Like on the motorway "Tiredness kills", and Catholics get TIRED in the desert, which is a big morale hit :laugh4: If it's a choice of command or morale, take morale - the battle is more likely to be decided on morale than kills.
Infantry line up - definitely go for Vikings, clansmen, gallowglass, even kerns and bonnachts can be surprisingly useful in the desert. I avoid anything in a tin can - no FMAAs, CMAAs, halberds, mil. serges, knights (except maybe general) etc etc. Swiss halberds are great if you've got them, but I rarely do by the time I'm taking the desert provinces.
Generally to win in the desert you have to stop thnking and fighting like a catholic ~D
Ironside
11-21-2007, 15:48
What are your fav. units in this terrain? Here are my ideas for the best units of each type to use:
Infantry:
Highland Clansmen
Gallowglasses
Vikings
Woodsmen
Slav Warriors
Quite good list here. Mercs and kerns are the ony other options and kerns don't exactly form a frontline (but they can really use hit and run vs exhausted troops)
Spears/polearms/halb:
Feudal sergeants
While they're quite weak, thier strength will improve considerbly when the fatigue sets in.
The Swiss units are already handled, but as you can only get them from one province and SAP:s need a master armourer....
Archers:
Vanilla
They aren't really that good, but when the crossbowmen and arbs reaches exhausted, they're worthless as only a few men will fire. You're lacking here, but as heavily armoured troops will suffer from exhaustion and lighter armour is more sensitive to arrows, they're still useful.
Cavalry:
Spanish Jinnettes
Mounted Sergeants
Mounted Crossbows
Steppe Cavalry
Alan Mercenary Cavalry (need to take Kazar/Georgia to get these).
Good list although unless you run a mob, danes won't get mounted crossbows (they should do well in the desert though). Turcopoles is quite useful as well.
I'm guessing that given the fact that noone in the desert wears much armour, regular archers may be more effective than Crossbows as they have a much better rate of fire. Arbalesters still rock for their range because I can't get Longbows.
Arbs got the same stats as crossbows, except in range and strength of the bolts= completly superior.
Whats the max armour a unit can have before they start getting fatigue penalties?
2 for infantry and 3 for cav iirc. I don't think the shield is included in the calculations (although I do have some vague memory about the pavise affecting fatigue).
There's different stages of fatigue as well, but I don't know the values for those.
I do have a bit of strategy for the desert corps though. In longer battles vs a heavier enemy I expect to lose the first wave (before the fatigue sets in at the enemy), but winning the rest.
This was because I didn't like to have my armies slow and taking heavy losses.
For defense you could have a heavier first wave, that's retreated afterwards.
seireikhaan
11-21-2007, 22:59
Now, this might sound a bit contradictory, but I actually rather like knights in the desert vs the usual muslim armies. The trick is to make sure you can break your opponent within the first 5-10 minutes of battle and route them off the field. Most muslim troops cannot stand up directly to chivalric knights, with the exception of saracen infantry. And speaking of saracens, don't forget that they have terrible morale, so knights can still be useful if used early. If you dilly dally, your knights will be rather useless very soon. Since you seem to be in the later periods, I'd go with a heavy front line of chiv. knights, supported by vikings as your main infantry. Gallowglasses may have better attack and charge, but the extra morale that vikings have can be invaluable. Plus, make sure to have plenty of reinforcements, preferably clansmen/gallowglasses, both of whom can come in and wipe the floor with against any depleted/tired troops. As for bows, quite frankly, I don't like arbs and xbows vs muslims. Furthermore, I very much dislike vanilla archers. As the Danes, I usually build a lot of inns, and hire any decent bow troops I can afford. My personal favorite merc bowmen is Bulgarian Brigands, due to being not awful in hand to hand, and being easy on the budget despite being mercs. Now, if you bring in the Chiv. knights and you can't cause any mass routing before they get exhausted, you need to get them off the field ASAP, and replace them with a lighter cavalry, probably jinettes in your case. Jinettes are quite wonderful desert cavalry, and will manage to make it to the field in decent stamina position even if coming on as reinforcements.
Thanks for all the advice.
I'll definitely go Vikings for the centre, flanked with Gallowgalsses then Clansmen. the clansmen are fast and have the worst defense, so I'll use them as pseudo cavalry for flanking, chasing archers off (they run faster than archers so they should actually be able to catch and rout them), and encircling the enemy while the Vik's/Glasses slug it out head to head.
Ok so I want Vikings and Gallowglasses with no armour upgrades and Highland Clansmen with +1 armour. Must see if I can get Ireland up to Master Swordsmith to get Valour +2 Gallowglasses, the extra defense and morale would help a lot.
Likewise I'll want Jinnettes, Mounted Sergeants and Steppe Cavalry without Armour upgrades, but as many weapon upgrades as I can. Castile and Aragon can both produce Valour +1 Weapon +2 Mounted Sergeants and Jinnettes. Pretty strong combination so I think that'll do. Jinnetes = Fast cavalry to chase down mounted archers/routers, or just plain rush archers or engaged melee units. If they didn't have such a weak charge I'd use them exclusively.
Mounted Sergeants will serve as my heavy cavalry. Their 8 Charge backed by a standard attack of 5 (+1 from val, +2 from weapons) gives them big impact value, even without the +4 from my general. All up they should charge for 17 attack, then keep fighting at 9.
I really love mounted sergeants as great all round cavalry in any situation. A little too slow to run down horse archers, but that 8 charge makes them capable of real impact.
Desert battles i like most of the game. The army i use is always low tech and dont wear little or non armour.
I use lots of vanila spearman and archers.
Some light cav. most of times spanish jinetes. since they can trow javelins as well. Wich is good aganst the heavy cavelery you meet.
A few units of urban milita.
A unit of royal knights i use as general, but they stand most of the times on a hill being tired.
gregori99
11-22-2007, 13:01
You could always bribe a couple of Egyptian armies and get them to do your desert fighting for you :smash:
As I recall, armor up to 3 does not cause additional fatigue in the desert. The only difference I'm aware of between cav and inf is that cav has 10% less rate of fatigue than inf when moving. Shields and pavise do not contribute to fatigue, but pavise slows down movement speed which increases the fatigue incurred to move from one place to another. There is no combat advantage for armor piercing melee weapons when used against armor 3 or less.
Make sure you check the VnV's of generals. Morale is separated from command stars in the campaign. Press F1 at the beginning of the battle to see the combat and morale rating of your units.
When still playing vanilla I used to have a few provinces without the armourer or with only the first armour to train lower armour level units for the desert. I find the armour in desert penalty to be rather annoying.
It should in fact have worked in reverse with the better armourers producing lighter and stronger armour with the lower class armourers making the heavy, stifling and ill fitting stuff. It's rather stupid that units such as the Knights Templars and Hospitallers should tire so rapidly as to be almost useless in the Outremer provinces.
You could always bribe a couple of Egyptian armies and get them to do your desert fighting for you :smash:
Actually, this is a great idea. If i could lay hands on a few Faris or other good non catholic units, like Camels that'd be fantastic. Just need to find a good stack woth units I want in it to bribe.
Does the vaslour of your emissary affect the cost to bribe the unit?
Tratorix
11-22-2007, 23:07
Actually, this is a great idea. If i could lay hands on a few Faris or other good non catholic units, like Camels that'd be fantastic. Just need to find a good stack woth units I want in it to bribe.
Does the vaslour of your emissary affect the cost to bribe the unit?
Don't know if it affects the price, but i'm prety sure it affects the chance of the bribe being accepted.
what happens If you bribe a stack, the same turn you attack that province? does the bribed stack join your army? Do you have to fight them because your bribe hasn't taken affect yet?
I think I've vastly under utilised this feature. Taking control of a stack of enemy troops and then attacking with your own stack leaves them woefully unprepared to defend. A fat treasury could be a powerful weapon in this way, even if you are militarily lacking.
Camp a small force on a border, then send in emmisaries to bribr the defending garrison, or part of the defending army then move your smaller force into the teritory. Instant unit swing, quite the sneak attack!
Tratorix
11-23-2007, 02:59
If you invade a province and during that turn send an emissary to bribe, they won't join you. You have to get the message that the bribe is excepted before you invade, or it won't take effect.
Bribing is an incredibly useful tool. I remember one campaign as the Byzantines when I took control of all the steppes and most of Eastern Europe without an army. Just three four star emissaries going from province to province.
Bribing take a number of turns, first send the emissary and you'll see the estimated cost of the bribe and the confirmation question. If you opt to try the bribe, and if your coffers can stand it, then the emissary will attempt it the next year. End turn. The next year you will receive the result of the bribe mission. This is will usually be either that, they were too loyal (refused) or that they have joined you. You may also see something to the effect that you no longer have enough money to bribe them, but do you want to offer everything you have or forget it. There is also the possibility that the army's value will change somehow. The emissary will inform you that they're now worth more/less and offer you the option of abandoning, continuing with the initial offer or raising/lowering the bribe amount accordingly. If after all of this you reach a successful outcome the emissary will inform you that they will join your army the next year and the bribed army will change to a hostile stance and begin flashing from it's old colours to it's new ones (yours)*. End turn. The following year the army will be under your control like any other. You will notice that loyalty values among unit leaders and the general will have changed, usually positively, though some may still be quite poor.
It's at the stage where the succesfully bribed flashing unit is visible that you can then drop in your supporting units to assist.
*if after successfuly bribing a rebel stack you notice that the stack is not flashing from rebel colours to your colours but instead from another faction's colours to your faction's colours, then this is actually a - rather useful - bug that shows their previous allegiance before they became rebel. This type of rebel stack are probably the product of a civil war, and have "remembered" their previous allegience. In a loyalist revolt rebels such as these will often revert to their old faction, often taking whole (rebel) provinces with them.
gregori99
11-23-2007, 21:34
Just one more thing, if you successfully bribe a garrison rather than a stack outside the castle, you get to use it a turn earlier. It's sometimes worth bribing a smaller garrison army rather than a bigger non-garrison one, if you have to choose, especially if you can reinforce the province. That way, you get ownership of the province and the castle undamaged, even though you may still have to fight the other stack.
Just one more thing, if you successfully bribe a garrison rather than a stack outside the castle, you get to use it a turn earlier. It's sometimes worth bribing a smaller garrison army rather than a bigger non-garrison one, if you have to choose, especially if you can reinforce the province. That way, you get ownership of the province and the castle undamaged, even though you may still have to fight the other stack.
Now that's handy to know. Instant ownership of all buildings by bribing the garrison - nice. I'm sure that if I could actually make money this way. Have a decent stack on the border of a province. Bribe the garrison and as soon as it's accepted drop your border stack into the province. get rid of the remaining troops and raze the province of all buildings to recoup your bribe cost, and possibly even turn a profit. Use the same emissary (probably valoured up now) to bribe the next prodince over's garrison and repeat, using your ever growing bribed army to steam roller opposition.
Bribery for the win!
Peasant Phill
11-26-2007, 18:25
One problem with that: The ever growing upkeep cost for your ever growing force.
It's a good short term strategy, but you can't keep it up for more than a few years unles your dealing with small forces. In that case you might even be better off just steamrolling them the traditional way.
Sure, but you can always disband units that are costly or sub standard. Hell, you can send them off on suicide raids too if you'd like, too many troops is a problem I like to have!!
High loyalty generals or large army stacks hamper this approach though. A high loyalty general with a decent army can be severly expensive, far more than you'd recoup by selling the provinces buildings. Unless you have money coming out your ears, in which case you can more or less buy the destruction of an enemy province with a couple of emisarries
In truth this strategy would be tough to pull off consistently, but it does provide an excellent alternative method of acquiring a province. Does this incur a warning from the pope? I always thought emisaries were a bit of a waste of time, but I guess not - they can actually be a very potent weapon. Pity spies can't do this too.
By the way, I've now taken all of the Egytian provinces except for Arabia. The Egyptians just keep retreating and giving away their provinces to my rolling horde. I'm now at war with the HRE, Turkish and Swiss who have discovered that I'm the single greatest power in the game and are trying to take me down. None of these are a real threat though and as long as the Sicilians stay out of it so my navy doesn't suffer, I should wipe the floor with them pretty rapidly.
The HRE dropped a stack that out numbered me 2-1 in my captial city of Denmark, but I mauled them mercilessly. I killed/captured 740 and lost 36. It should have been a pretty close battle. They had stacks of Arbalesters and Pav. XBows, a couple of units of cavalry and a few units of Halbardiers and spears to use against my Chivalric and Royal Knights. Unfortunately for them, they approached in a bad formation and I was able to flank them with CMAA's and run down their mass of archers with my knights in an appaling mismatch. The rout was on moments after the forces engaged and my horses chased them all to the map edge, stopping to crush and regrouping units. It's possibly the best result I've had so far.
get rid of the remaining troops and raze the province of all buildings to recoup your bribe cost, and possibly even turn a profit.
Razing is not a sound strategy in MTW as it's probably you that will end up rebuilding everything later on.
It's also a big AI exploit as it cripples the AI and makes for a very dull and easy game. Also bear in mind that the AI cannot raze/disband. It is a good habit to adopt at least a non razing personal rule.
:bow:
Just finished the campaign taking the 60% victory. Finished off the English, HRE, Spanish and Swiss, then the Polish made the mistake of attacking me so I slaughtered them too. In the ned it was just me and the Hungarians plus a few stragling provinces held by other factions.
As you mentioned, I did end up rebuilding most of the places I destroyed. The main idea I started to Raze the areas I conquered was because I was worried I might not be able to hold them against counter attacks, but this was never really an issue.
Not sure who I'll go with in the next campaign, possibly the English - I've got a hankering to use their Longbows!
Mouzafphaerre
11-28-2007, 16:03
.
I use scortched earth in provinces that I never intend to keep.
.
macsen rufus
11-28-2007, 18:23
I will occasionally totally trash a province, but only in extremis.
Typical example, I'm playing a small faction, big faction next door keeps bugging me, and is growing faster than me.... no way can I engage in a big drawn out war, but I can put together enough of an army to maybe win one battle, yet know I won't be able to afford a garrison afterwards. THEN I will hit the bully in the 'nads, preferably by chasing the king out of his prime military province. I then will trash all his troop-raising infrastructure and any happiness buildings, then let him have the smoking ruins back, assuming he can get back in before the inevitable rebellion... inevitable because I screw taxes right up to bleeding point, and pull out all troops.... Even when I do this though, I always leave economic infrastructure in place. It's also usually at a point early in the game when I can use a big wodge of cash NOW, more than I could use one extra province's income. Generally though, I normally will only take provinces I intend to keep, and then want as much infrastructure as possible left standing :bow:
sharpshooter
12-07-2007, 06:33
I just wanted to add one more unit to the catholic list - Bulgarian Brigands. Good in the desert, more useful than Archers. I said something about them on another thread - then noticed this one. Often available as Mercs in the run up to the desert battles if your faction doesn't get them in Bulgaria.
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