Italians.... INCOME.... WHat happened to My Incomes!!!!

[shokaku76]

Playing Normal, I was doing quite well... beat the crap out of Scillians when they attacked me, then conviniently, HRE had massive civil war, allowing me to swallow up half the HRE without too much hassle. After all this, I was able to easily expand my trade empire. At one point, I was taking in 14,000 florins per year! with net income of about 4,500 !!! Not bad... but than, you-know-what hit the fan... My biggest trade partners Egypt and Elmo-heads declared war on me... I dunno why... we were on friendly terms... oh well... okay, so I did send like 20 priests to elmo-head territory... but anyways, once the war was declared... my income went from 14,000 to 9,500 florins, crippling my vast empire. +4,500 per year turned to -2,800. Within 10 years, my 45,000 florin war chest was exhausted and I was essentially bankrupt. Selling off building did little. Within few more years, Elmo-heads and Egyptians smahsed my armies, and I died... What could have I done to avoid this? And, yes, I did try all I can to sue for peace... but them barbarians didn't want to hear about it.

[Mount Suribachi]

Well your income (as the italians) comes mainly from your trade routes in the Med, half of which is Egyptian and Elmo territory. Did your ships reach to Byzantium and into the black sea? One ship in the blacksea reaches like 5 ports! Did your ships go through the straits of Gib, round the spanish coast to the French coast? Do you have ports and trading posts at all your coastal provinces with tradable goods?

[dancho]

You have to attack and sink the enemy ships. Of course, since they are slippery little devils you might not be able to do that...

[Speedy Gonzales III]

your trade routes are probably blockaded by enemy ships.

[This message has been edited by Speedy Gonzales III (edited 09-05-2002).]

[ToranagaSama]

shokaku76,

Precisely, what happened to you is what makes this game so much more challenging that STW.

"What could have I done to avoid this?"

Avoid what exactly??

First thing to observe, is that you created an obvious vulnerability which the AI, in the guise of the Elmoheads and Turks, exploited. Smart AI!

How to avoid this?? Good question. One for which, as yet, I don't believe there is an answer. I am exploring this very question in my present game.

One question to answer, is if you were to conquer say one or the other, would the income from the conquered lands replace the income lost through trade with those same lands? If not, then this may be serious insurmountable flaw in the game. We shall see.

This is a question needed to be answered soon, so any correction(s) can be incorporated, if necessary, in the expected patch.

My thought, was that a HUGE war chest would be needed to sustain one's empire and armies as one proceeded to conquer one's trading partners.

BUT, 45,000 is a HUGE war chest, far greater than I've managed to amass so far. I've just begun on this tack, also playing the Italians on Normal. So far, I've got about 1400 income and 8,000 in savings. To see that 45,000 wasn't enough to sustain you is scary.

How many troops did you have, and were they ALL necessary? How were you utilizing them? What level of Loyalty were you averaging around your empire? How many troops did managing Loyalty require?

Just speculating, but it would seem that you had much too many troops, and were poorly utilizing them. Also, speculating, perhaps you did not "wisely" utilize diplomacy.

One might presume that many of your troops were garrision/safeguarding border provinces against "non-allied" rival factions; and consequently eating away your income. Better Diplomacy might have helped here. Reducing your need for troops.

Also, one other question begs to be pondered:

Its safe to presume that your trading partners, the Elmoheads and Turks, also suffered a similar loss of income, but the loss did not, apparently, effect them to the same extent as yourself.

Why not? Was it a case of ridiculous "cheating" by the AI, ala STW; or poor strategy and preparation on your part?

Well, hopefully, I'll be able to answer some of those questions soon. As I said, I'm playing Italians on Normal. My strategy is to develop my economy to the max and my ability to produce very advanced troops. I hope to rely on my alliance with the Germans and the relative weakness of the French, while dilgently monitoring the Hungarians who also border the province of Venice.

I'm at war with no one and have relatively few troops prefering to sink my income into infrastructure. I do not play to launch any attacks, until Venice is FULLY secure. Which means a Citadel with a garrison of advanced Armoured troops and the strongest fleet of ships. Also the other province with armour (forget name) is fully up to speed to produce advanced troops.

I'm already trading with Egyt and soon will be with the Elmoheads; then I want to establish trade with Britain and the North coutries. (Trade s/b worth more the farther your trading partner. Trade with Britain s/b more profitable than trade with Egyt.)

Taking Scily or Constantinople will HUGELY impact income so both will be very tempting. Probably Sciliy, but the Pope will most likely ex-communicate me.

With the income from either of these, I plan to use my Navy to springboard an attack thru the Black Sea into the weak Slavic countries and establish an Empire in the utlimate hope of squeezing the Islamics in a two front war. The rest of Europe s/then be easy. We'll see!

The key to all the above will be technology and the Navy. So far, I'm up to Fire Galleys and will soon out pace the AI. Once I get to the next tech level shipwise I plan to eliminate the Scilian navy as precursor to invaision.

Fun, Fun, Fun!!

Isn't it great that w/o a Navy the Scilians won't be able to do much. Even though the Pope will ex-communicate me, the Papal states will serve as a buffer keeping the Scilians bottled up. W/o ships their income will dwindle and I can take them at my leisure.

[malkuth]

They attacked you because you blocked them in and they had no chance to Expand. You were the only target. I learned this the hard way in the first 10 years of my game when I blocked Egypt (I was Turks). I got my butt handed to me. And they were my allies too. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[Kraxis]

Toranaga, often you are the only one to trade. The tradepartners are at the recieving end (hehehe) of your trade route, they don't get much money from it.

It is likely that you had a lot of ships out far and away, that can be VERY costly! Just check the upkeep of the ships.

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You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[ToranagaSama]

Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
Toranaga, often you are the only one to trade. The tradepartners are at the recieving end (hehehe) of your trade route, they don't get much money from it.

It is likely that you had a lot of ships out far and away, that can be VERY costly! Just check the upkeep of the ships.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, you've got a point. Guess they didn't actually lose that much by attacking.

In my game, I've finally received some reciprocal trade. It would be great if we could see trade in relation to "factions" as well as provinces. It'd be easier to decide who to be friends with.

Regarding the upkeep of ships....Whoaaa Nelly....I just saw mention of this in another thread.

Funny, coulda sworn I checked this. For some lamebrain reason I thought there was NO upkeep costs...duhh! Knew that didn't seem correct, but I never considered costs would increase the further from your "port".

Question, just thought of this: "Which" Port??? How is it determined which port for which ship to factor to the cost/upkeep?

The bulk of my income is from Venice, but only about half of the ships were built there.

Oh man, how about we Petition for far greater in-depth documentation ONLINE!!

[Mount Suribachi]

They take the nearest port for your income, so by the time your ships reach the N sea they're costing you 80F each per turn. Which is why I bribed by my way into Scotland (and becos it tickles me to see Highland Clansmen generals called Don Giovanni Machiavelli). Don't count on the HRE staying allied for long, they just launched an attack on me out of the blue, and 2 of your most valuable provinces (Genoa and Venice) border the HRE. You think the HRE don't want valuable coastal provinces? Regarding income, before I was attacked bt the HRE followed quickly by Egypt and Byzantium I was raking in 14000 florins per turn with about 8000 profit and I'm only in 1155 so as Italy you can make some big bucks.

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We speak of deep night, deep autumn; when I think bak to the year 1943 I feel like saying "deep war" Ilya Ehrenburg

[Mount Suribachi]

They take the nearest port for your income, so by the time your ships reach the N sea they're costing you 80F each per turn. Which is why I bribed by my way into Scotland (and becos it tickles me to see Highland Clansmen generals called Don Giovanni Machiavelli). Don't count on the HRE staying allied for long, they just launched an attack on me out of the blue, and 2 of your most valuable provinces (Genoa and Venice) border the HRE. You think the HRE don't want valuable coastal provinces? Regarding income, before I was attacked bt the HRE followed quickly by Egypt and Byzantium I was raking in 14000 florins per turn with about 8000 profit and I'm only in 1155 so as Italy you can make some big bucks.

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We speak of deep night, deep autumn; when I think bak to the year 1943 I feel like saying "deep war" Ilya Ehrenburg

[Mount Suribachi]

stupid double post

[shokaku76]

Thanks for Info guys....

The scary thing is... I had massive navy, and easily overpowered the puny Egyptian fleet. What happened was, I had roughly 12,000 strong army all over the globe when they attacked me. I send them in as soon as possible. Elmoshead proved my undoing as killing them cost me around 3000-4000 men.
With my trade network all but destroyed, since Egypt and Elmoheads accounted for significant portion of the trade, and my other majot partner Byginetine empire was relegated to holdings in Cyprus and that other tiny island... it did not accoutn for much. I frantically sold off non-essential buildings and disbanded expensive mercenary troops. That finally got me to broke-even. But alas, I could not replace my troops... add insult to injury, HRE, which I beat up on allied with Egypt and invaded my German provinced. BOOM! I wonder if I could have held on... I just quit and deleted the saved game in disgust.

TO DO LIST for next game

RAPE, PILLAGE, LAY WASTE TO HRE, EGYPT, ELMO-HEADS.

BUtn baby Burn!!! MUHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[Buccaneer]

Toranaga, I followed your post with interest because I have started my first game this past weekend, playing the Italians on Normal (starting in the High period). I am wondering if you have detailed how your game went?

So far, I have about 5000 in savings and 2000+ in net income from three trade routes, plus the bribed provinces of Serbia and Constantinople, and the captured provinces of Croatia (the Pope warned me so I stopped attacking Catholic provinces but held onto it) and Greece. Since this is my first game, I'm wondering if this is a right track and what to do next?