Gangstas should take lessons from Paris riots ?

[Shahed]

Just look at that, now that's a freakin riot. Somehow they always manage it in Pars, far better than anywhere else, bar Afghanistan. Gangstas take note ! (that's a joke!)

Wonder how Sarcophagus is going to handle this one. There's actually a high profile in the police force who said they won't take this without shooting back for much longer. *ahem* Wonder how he got his job.

Anyway, the solution is easy enough. Start a fair investigation into how those two kids got killed (AGAIN!!! 2nd time), and carry the case to court. Obviously now the police is in a fix, because to control this thing without further incident will be a nightmare.

Linkage: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7114175.stm

[CrossLOPER]

The French should throw stuff back.

[Andres]

It's very sad when two people die so young, but it seems like they only have themselves to blame...


Police sources have said that in Sunday's incident, the motorcycle was going at top speed and was not registered for street use, while the two teenagers were not wearing helmets and had been ignoring traffic rules.

[Shahed]

Which French ? The police or the rioters ? I guess you mean the police.

[Fragony]

As if the riots have anything to do with these kids just an excuse. As if they will accept the outcome of the investigation, just shoot back. If that leads to escalation fine, keep shooting untill it's calm again. Curfew, martial law.

[Shahed]

Imagine that this is happening in one of Europe's capital cities.

[Fragony]

Imagine that this is happening in one of Europe's capital cities.

Not just Paris, we had this in Amsterdam as well last month, cars are still set ablaze on daily bases, guy got shot by cops after he stabbed them, bam riots. Doesn't matter what happens, anything will do.

[Tristuskhan]

What did you all see on TV, guys? Trench war? It's just riots... Bricks vs flashball. Molotovs vs lacrymo. A "badly wounded" french cop usually has a broken nail. A "strongly organised party" of rioters is a bunch of "angry" kids with clubs for mass destruction weapons. There are almost no firearms in the french suburbs, and even less ammunition. What I mean is that you can get a gun quite easily in those places but 1-it will be an old rusted one and 2-with three bullets and 3-very expensive (say 1000 euros). The result is that guns are used for three things: vendetta, accidents, and suicides.
Pillage and looting? Who cares? That's evil but insurance companies in France are stinking rich and won't refuse if Sarko asks them to pay back those "poor courageous french victims". And he WILL ask them, be sure about it.

There won't be any true explosion, I bet. And if someone dies of gunfire (that's unlikely), everyone will go back home and think a bit (not enough, alas).

An honnest investigation on the accident is to be done. The kids were completely outlaw, that's not questionnable. But we have a little problem in France. Every single investigation involving police officers is closed before beginning. "The men did what they had to do, everything's fine, thank you, and goodbye". And it's always the same for twenty years at least. And the darker the skin of the victim is, the faster the cop's innocence is stated. That is what those rioters have in mind. That and a true desire for pillage and action (you can't imagine how life is boring when you are a poor kid with an almost hardcoded brutal future living in a dull place full of people like you).

[Fragony]

A "badly wounded" french cop usually has a broken nail.

Actually he got shot in the head.

[Shahed]

An honnest investigation on the accident is to be done. The kids were completely outlaw, that's not questionnable. But we have a little problem in France. Every single investigation involving police officers is closed before beginning. "The men did what they had to do, everything's fine, thank you, and goodbye". And it's always the same for twenty years at least. And the darker the skin of the victim is, the faster the cop's innocence is stated. That is what those rioters have in mind. That and a true desire for pillage and action (you can't imagine how life is boring when you are a poor kid with an almost hardcoded brutal future living in a dull place full of people like you).

That's the point I was trying to make: there should be a clean and transparent investigation. Rioting isn't the answer but surely if there's any law, it should be applied to all citizens. The police seem to have a law only applicable to them above everyone else.

[Fragony]

That's the point I was trying to make: there should be a clean and transparent investigation. Rioting isn't the answer but surely if there's any law, it should be applied to all citizens. The police seem to have a law only applicable to them above everyone else.

They won't accept the outcome, they have already decided what happened. I am so sick of this type of self-pity, always blaming everything but theirselves. 'Expression of anger' mon derriere, la haine.

[macsen rufus]

It's very sad when two people die so young, but it seems like they only have themselves to blame...


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Article
Police sources have said that in Sunday's incident, the motorcycle was going at top speed and was not registered for street use, while the two teenagers were not wearing helmets and had been ignoring traffic rules.



There, fixed it....

[Fragony]

Compared to the banlieux version where they put it in reverse, drove over them again, and again, and well again, pretty much believable.

[English assassin]

Maybe its time we stopped looking at rioting french muslim teenagers as alienation, and started looking at it as assimilation?


Did we do this joke last time? Apologies if so

[Don Corleone]

There, fixed it....

According to the article, local residents claimed the youths crashed into the police car, not vice-versa. And that wasn't police-sources, that was people in the neighborhood where the 2 youths died.

I understand what Tristuskhan is saying... that even if the kids were guilty, it is very suspicious to have the police investegating themselves. Don't you guys have citizen review boards? Even in benighted, backwater USA, most major city police forces have a citizen's review board they have to go before when something smells fishy.

It sounds to me that Fragony is right though. If they're rioting because of the two teenagers dying, they'd riot over anything.

And after that first police officer got shot with a shotgun, the police should have started firing back with real ammo. It's no wonder they're rioting, they don't take the police very seriously.

[Tribesman]

If they're rioting because of the two teenagers dying, they'd riot over anything.

Its a French thing , if they weren't rioting they would probably be on strike .



what is it with police cars and bikes that can make an angry crowd ?
http://www.noolmusic.com/blogs/police_car_vs_bike_-_youtube_myspace_video.shtml

[Fragony]

it is very suspicious to have the police investegating themselves.

Justice department handles that directly, but it's not perfect.

[FactionHeir]

I think the French police is too lax. They know the rioters will riot for whatever reason if it only involved the police. If the rioters are armed, my belief is that police should counter same with same. I.e. if they are shot at, shoot back.

If the police don't show that they have some authority (besides moral authority) or control, they need not be surprised that rioters find the courage to cause tremendous damage.

A few shot rioters later and there should be much more calm around France in terms of riots. In general, its usually ringleaders and vocal individuals that manage to gather an angry mob, but the mob tends to disperse if the leaders are lost or they notice that those riots are not without danger to their own lives either.

[PanzerJaeger]

I wonder what % of these people are mu... oh never mind... :slomo:

[Slug For A Butt]

Look at the rioters, they are the poor, alienated, discriminatated against downtrodden minority immigrants from the tenament suburbs that resemble the worst of the British inner cities.. How surprised are you at that? Because of the way they are treated in French society as a whole this was a powder keg just waiting to explode.

Look at the rioters, they are the indolent, free loading, unsociable migrant (and their offspring) dregs of society that are not interested in making a better life for themselves in a western capitalist society. Far easier to live in the self imposed ghettos with a chip on your shoulder and take offence at everything that this society can offer you, whilst at the same time taking everything this society will offer you financially.

I have a very close French friend (in Valence) and when I visit , we sit out late and talk about all sorts of things. But one thing that is very reminiscant of Britain is the problems with these types of riots, anyone remember Bradford or Oldham? Again, immigrant families with chips on shoulders that will riot because their cousin got arrested for drug dealing or some such nonsense. This was just an excuse to riot for no other reason than they wanted to in my opinion.

[Meneldil]

As if the riots have anything to do with these kids just an excuse. As if they will accept the outcome of the investigation, just shoot back. If that leads to escalation fine, keep shooting untill it's calm again. Curfew, martial law.


That. Just shoot them until there's no remaining rioters, and we're settled.

[Slug For A Butt]

I agree with Fragony on this one. :balloon2:

[Tristuskhan]

I think the French police is too lax. They know the rioters will riot for whatever reason if it only involved the police. If the rioters are armed, my belief is that police should counter same with same. I.e. if they are shot at, shoot back.

If the police don't show that they have some authority (besides moral authority) or control, they need not be surprised that rioters find the courage to cause tremendous damage.

A few shot rioters later and there should be much more calm around France in terms of riots. In general, its usually ringleaders and vocal individuals that manage to gather an angry mob, but the mob tends to disperse if the leaders are lost or they notice that those riots are not without danger to their own lives either.

The problem, my friend, is that a few fourteen years old shot rioters later, it's just civil war... Those rioters who hold the guns are well behind the frontline (long range shotgun fire - what our dear peace force took last night - is a stupid weapon, and a bad "war" practice) and won't get shot. The mob is young, my friend, and I really don't think a handfull of (gunless) youth killed would make anyone "calm".

Just one thing about the shotgun use: the shotguns we have in france are small calibered, for use in bird and rabbit hunting only. Larger game is to be hunted with bullets only. Used at long range, it is definitely not deadly (just a nuisance for shielded troops). The police was able to perform it's mission despite this threat, without using guns. So the lack of reply by the police force was the good choice. If they can act without releasing bullets, there is no reason to open fire (and be fired at in reply, and with the few serious weapons "stockpiled" in the bloks.

But it should not happen, look: the police force controls the situation without the use of guns. What a blessing to have such a skillful and moderate police:laugh4:


Instant info from the french national radio: it seems quite smooth tonigh... not calm.... but sporadic. light skirmishes only. But there is football on TV tonigh. Horse races result: 7-3-10.

[Fragony]

The problem, my friend, is that a few fourteen years old

Indeed, we used to laugh about that in a LOL@BRAZIL'esque way, but now it's there, 14 year olds completily out of control. So the hardcore is not at the frontlines? That works both ways, the watercannon will no doubt shock the 14 year old fodder enough to make them run home to mamma, leaving the true muhamadin exposed, but no.

[Kralizec]

Ah, that brings back good memories...last year a minor riot broke out in Amsterdam when a Maroccan boy crashed his scooter into a street latern and died, while fleeing from a single cop who, as it turned out, wasn't even chasing him :dizzy2:

That was just after the previous rounds of riots in France, so apparently some people do take lessons from this sort of thing.

[Tristuskhan]

Ah, that brings back good memories...last year a minor riot broke out in Amsterdam when a Maroccan boy crashed his scooter into a street latern and died, while fleeing from a single cop who, as it turned out, wasn't even chasing him :dizzy2:


Agreed... So I don't think the Republic must wage war on his own stupid kids. No matter how stupid they are... Cops have a bad life in the suburbs, but they have their lives really threatened when dealing with grand banditisme, bankrobbers and outlaws who have true guns, ammunition and know how to use it. Those deserve bullets, as well as the (few) terrorist networks. Rioters setting fire in furniture stores or pillaging supermarkets don't.

[Slug For A Butt]

Anyone notice a common denominator here? I'ts none of my business but I'm guessing you are of immigrant origin by the way you are talking. Not really relevant except for the stance you are taking. So I'm bigger than my neighbour and if they start hitting me I shouldn't hit them back because I'll hurt them more than they hurt me? So what should I do? Nothing?

Sorry Tristukhan. but it's the same on most civilised countries. You show a gun of any sort (even a replica in the UK) and you are fair game for the armed Police. You even own a gun and point it in the wrong direction you should be put down before you have the chance to do anyone else some harm. Seems like sense to me.
Should I have to worry what caliber gun is pointed at me before I expect the police to take action? Stop defending the indefensible.
There is no excuse for what you are trying to defend.

[Kralizec]

Agreed... So I don't think the Republic must wage war on his own stupid kids. No matter how stupid they are... Cops have a bad life in the suburbs, but they have their lives really threatened when dealing with grand banditisme, bankrobbers and outlaws who have true guns, ammunition and know how to use it. Those deserve bullets, as well as the (few) terrorist networks. Rioters setting fire in furniture stores or pillaging supermarkets don't.

I don't agree. Cops staying out of these suburbs only gives them the idea that they can do anything. If you think that certain types of criminals "deserve bullets" you have a really weird idea of what police power should entail. They should shoot anyone that threatens their or other people's physical safety (if there's no other way, of course)

[Slug For A Butt]

I don't agree. Cops staying out of these suburbs only gives them the idea that they can do anything. If you think that certain types of criminals "deserve bullets" you have a really weird idea of what police power should entail. They should shoot anyone that threatens their or other people's physical safety (if there's no other way, of course)

(if there's no other way, of course) my arse. They should shoot other people that threaten innocent people's lives full stop, completely, no argument... surely. The police force is there to protect me and they have that duty.

EDIT: I'm probably way out of touch. But what the hell is a "Gangsta"? Is it like a Gansgter that is black and beats his girlfriend?
I guess that makes it fashionable.

[Ice]

EDIT: I'm probably way out of touch. But what the hell is a "Gangsta"? Is it like a Gansgter that is black and beats his girlfriend?
I guess that makes it fashionable.

It's slang for gangster.

[Louis VI the Fat]

And there I was, thinking at first that this was just another one of those small 'text-message mini-intifada's' that last for an evening.

How very wrong I was. It is a reprisal of 2005. But far, far worse. There is a grave difference: they are now not only targeting property, but the police. They are actually shooting at the police, have placed an IED that would've blown up several police officers if it hadn't been discovered. They have ambushed a police station. Rammed burning cars into buildings.

This is not a riot. This is urban warfare.

Bloody hell. What is this - Baghdad? A civil war? Do we need the army now just to retain law and order?

This is not funny anymore. Who'd have thought, a near insurgency, in the heart of Europe. Oran 1958 was more peaceful than this.

Oh, and the French police...~:mecry:
In between intifadas they are aggressive, intrusive, brutal. With constant harrasment and identity checks. Then when the shit hits the fan they are ordered not to use force. To refrain from anything that could be considered incidiary.

Can't they reverse that for a change? :wall:

[Tristuskhan]

Anyone notice a common denominator here? I'ts none of my business but I'm guessing you are of immigrant origin by the way you are talking. Not really relevant except for the stance you are taking. So I'm bigger than my neighbour and if they start hitting me I shouldn't hit them back because I'll hurt them more than they hurt me? So what should I do? Nothing?

:inquisitive: Sorry my blood is white and all my known ancestors were born french and so on (but beeing from a coastline living lineage, some of my ancestors are unknown, must have been some arabic sailors among them if I underestand your logics well):laugh4: . But I grew up in such neighbourhoods 'til I was twenty-five.
Your idea about "me bigger than the neighbour..." seems biased since those suburbs are not "neighbours" but part of our national body. Parts that hurt. No one would shoot a part of his own body when it hurts. If one does, well... it's not a good medecine.

Edit: @LOUIS VI: good idea, now what should we do first? Fight back or wait for it to calm down a bit and start a new police attitude?

[Louis VI the Fat]

all my known ancestors were born french You are from Breizh. Therefore you are an immigrant, one who stole our beautiful Armorique. ~;)

now what should we do first?
I say we listen to Meneldil:


Just shoot them until there's no remaining rioters, and we're settled.:2thumbsup:

I hear the library in Toulouse was set ablaze tonight by the barbarians? Nice touch.

They are rioting because two thugs killed themselves. I am celebrating that, for a change, two speeding gangsters didn't kill any innocents.

They are outraged, they say that the police rammed them, they demand an investigation and an apology.
Well I demand an investigation as well. And if it turns out that the police really did ramm them, I want the police decorated for doing their job of actually chasing and apprehending criminals. :yes:

[Geoffrey S]

And there I was, thinking at first that this was just another one of those small 'text-message mini-intifada's' that last for an evening.

How very wrong I was. It is a reprisal of 2005. But far, far worse. There is a grave difference: they are now not only targeting property, but the police. They are actually shooting at the police, have placed an IED that would've blown up several police officers if it hadn't been discovered. They have ambushed a police station. Rammed burning cars into buildings.

This is not a riot. This is urban warfare.
When I hear these kind of things, I can't help but wonder about links between perpetrators of these acts and more traditional terrorist cells. There's tremendous damage which could be caused, if gone unchecked.

[Tribesman]

They should shoot other people that threaten innocent people's lives full stop, completely, no argument... surely. The police force is there to protect me and they have that duty.

full stop , completely , no arguement .:dizzy2: now who was that Brazillian fella that was shot full stop for being a threat to innocent peoples lives in your country ?

[Tristuskhan]

You are from Breizh. Therefore you are an immigrant, one who stole our beautiful Armorique. ~;)

Allright allright, sometimes I feel like I'm perfectly assimilated... my mistake. At least I'm white and was able to make my way out of Brest's marooned cités.

[Kralizec]

(if there's no other way, of course) my arse. They should shoot other people that threaten innocent people's lives full stop, completely, no argument... surely. The police force is there to protect me and they have that duty.

If a person is grave and immediate danger, the police should shoot the perpetrator. If the danger isn't really accute, then the least drastic method of removing the danger should be chosen (i.e. arresting the suspect instead of shooting him)

I don't see why that would be disagreeable, unless you favor the Judge Dredd approach.

[Fragony]

When I hear these kind of things, I can't help but wonder about links between perpetrators of these acts and more traditional terrorist cells. There's tremendous damage which could be caused, if gone unchecked.

Oh really

update, in Toulousse, which is in the south, quite unlike paris that is in the north, the youth shows solidarity.

[Husar]

Why shoot them? Why not get out the nightsticks and club them all down? :idea2: Once they're all unconscious you can load them into vehicles and drive them into mass-prisons or something like that. ~;)

[Geoffrey S]

Oh really
Point taken. I think.

[Papewaio]

I don't see why that would be disagreeable, unless you favor the Judge Dredd approach.

Even Judge Dredd arrested people who shot at him. He even gave some younger smart kids the option of prison or Judge school... he thought the smart ones would chose prison.

[Vladimir]

And there I was, thinking at first that this was just another one of those small 'text-message mini-intifada's' that last for an evening.

How very wrong I was. It is a reprisal of 2005. But far, far worse. There is a grave difference: they are now not only targeting property, but the police. They are actually shooting at the police, have placed an IED that would've blown up several police officers if it hadn't been discovered. They have ambushed a police station. Rammed burning cars into buildings.

This is not a riot. This is urban warfare.

Bloody hell. What is this - Baghdad? A civil war? Do we need the army now just to retain law and order?

This is not funny anymore. Who'd have thought, a near insurgency, in the heart of Europe. Oran 1958 was more peaceful than this.

Oh, and the French police...~:mecry:
In between intifadas they are aggressive, intrusive, brutal. With constant harrasment and identity checks. Then when the shit hits the fan they are ordered not to use force. To refrain from anything that could be considered incidiary.

Can't they reverse that for a change? :wall:

I hope you're taking a lot of artistic license. It seems like France didn't have to go to Iraq, Iraq came to France. Instead of "Escape from LA" it's Escape from Paris. Of course it's fun to be dramatic but your vision was quite chilling.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Judge Dredd approach.

I hope Sarkozy drops the hammer on those kids.

[Fragony]

He warned the shooters, told them that we just don't do that kind of thing, visited shot officers, and had a cup of tea with the parents and told them how sorry he is for the death of their thieving hatchlings. I am extremily dissapointed, this only happens because they just can do it, scared police dhimmi politicians. Our police is useless but at least they aren't the bully's that the gendarmerie is, turns out they are bully's and on top of that useless.

[Slug For A Butt]

full stop , completely , no arguement .:dizzy2: now who was that Brazillian fella that was shot full stop for being a threat to innocent peoples lives in your country ?

They made a mistake obviously. But, if he WAS what they suspected he was and they didn't shoot him stone cold dead immediately on a crowded train how many dead innocents would we have on our hands? The "let's try and arrest a suicide bomber" attitude is a bit of a no brainer for me.
Maybe you don't understand the feeling here at that time, but under the circumstances I would back the Police doing that again. I'd rather have 1 dead innocent than many dead innocents, if the Met Police were hammered over this we could all wave bye bye to our personal security from now on.
Would YOU want a Police paralysed by political correctness at a time when your country is under attack by insidious, cowardly terrorism?
I'm interested to know what your choice would have been. :inquisitive:


Even Judge Dredd arrested people who shot at him. He even gave some younger smart kids the option of prison or Judge school... he thought the smart ones would chose prison.

It's great that we can compare real life circumstances to a comic book isn't it? It makes me realise where we've been going wrong. Actually, all we probably need is a few Robocops on each street corner. Brilliant.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Well, I'm sure appeasement will work this time.

CR

[Slug For A Butt]

:laugh4:

[Fragony]

Point taken. I think.

http://www.nieuwnieuws.nl/archives/2007/11/kabinet_bezorgd_over_film_wild_1.html

"Voorzitter Abdelmajid Khairoun van de Nederlandse Moslim Raad "vreest het ergste" als Geert Wilders zijn plannen doorzet om een film over de Islam te maken. "Dan is op een gegeven moment het laatste woord aan de jongens op de straat. En die kunnen wij dan niet meer tegenhouden,"

(sorry non dutchies)

Germany 1930's... remember

[ICantSpellDawg]

I have a feeling that once a police officer dies, protesters with guns will be shot on sight. If i were in a position of power, i would wait until the first gun death was reported before i opened the gates of hell on their arses. Sarkozy realizes that bleeding heart media perception is all that matters anymore.

[Fragony]

They already shot and set the rules of the game. Anyone thinking this is just riots should have their head examimned.

[Brenus]

“if he WAS”: IF is the problem…

“Would YOU want a Police paralysed by political correctness?”
Where do you find PC in this mistake? A guy left his flat, a suspected suicide bomber… How the Police reached the conclusion that a Brazilian would commit suicide is still not answered… However, the guy climbed in a bus, went in the tube, bought his newspapers… He didn’t run like the police told as, didn’t jump over the fence, and didn’t wear clothes which could have something under…:no:
The PC is your attitude… Police is always right… Well, IF one of your family or friends would be killed because he goes to work, I think you would change your mind
But the story is not over. No investigation was allowed. It took for a kind of light on what happened with a claim under Health and Safety issues.
The worst came out. Modified (enhanced) pictures to make the poor guy look like a terrorist, blood test proving than years ago he used cocaine (in a vain attempt to claim he had a strange behaviour), the Police tried all what they can to cover-up a mistake. Even when the police knew they killed an innocent rumour started that he was an illegal (like it would have diminish the responsibility…). The glorification by the media of the glorious police officers risking their life (well, the day after the attack) couldn’t be spoiled by a Brazilian, even dead, even innocent…:furious3:
I do appreciate the courage of the Police Officers who thought he was a suicide bomber and thought they were protecting us. Again, it doesn’t clean the inefficiency of the people who promulgated the death sentence of an innocent.:wall:
But please, do not mix the real courage of the Officers in performing their duty and a patriotic approach of a BIG mistake as a cover-up.:thumbsdown:

[ICantSpellDawg]

“if he WAS”: IF is the problem…

“Would YOU want a Police paralysed by political correctness?”
Where do you find PC in this mistake? A guy left his flat, a suspected suicide bomber… How the Police reached the conclusion that a Brazilian would commit suicide is still not answered… However, the guy climbed in a bus, went in the tube, bought his newspapers… He didn’t run like the police told as, didn’t jump over the fence, and didn’t wear clothes which could have something under…:no:
The PC is your attitude… Police is always right… Well, IF one of your family or friends would be killed because he goes to work, I think you would change your mind
But the story is not over. No investigation was allowed. It took for a kind of light on what happened with a claim under Health and Safety issues.
The worst came out. Modified (enhanced) pictures to make the poor guy look like a terrorist, blood test proving than years ago he used cocaine (in a vain attempt to claim he had a strange behaviour), the Police tried all what they can to cover-up a mistake. Even when the police knew they killed an innocent rumour started that he was an illegal (like it would have diminish the responsibility…). The glorification by the media of the glorious police officers risking their life (well, the day after the attack) couldn’t be spoiled by a Brazilian, even dead, even innocent…:furious3:
I do appreciate the courage of the Police Officers who thought he was a suicide bomber and thought they were protecting us. Again, it doesn’t clean the inefficiency of the people who promulgated the death sentence of an innocent.:wall:
But please, do not mix the real courage of the Officers in performing their duty and a patriotic approach of a BIG mistake as a cover-up.:thumbsdown:

I think the PC critique was made towards French and Nederlander police forces. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Vladimir]

Has there been any resolution to that case? It seemed like a really big Scotland Yard cover up.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I hope you're taking a lot of artistic license. Of course it's fun to be dramatic but your vision was quite chilling.There was some artistic license, yes. But I am very pessimistic about it all. And angry.

I really don't know what to think of it all anymore. Here are two versions, I've thought them both in the last days:

I) French society puts pressure on immigrants, accepts nothing less than full assimilation. On the other hand, French society is closed to those who have a different language, customs, skin colour. You can never win as a foreigner. A foreigner is outcasted for not being assimilated, and he can never assimilate because he is foreign. This leaves many youths feeling alienated. What choice but to succumb to drugs, crime and (religious) radicalism?

II) Or is it? The son of Ottoman Jews and Hungarian refugees can become president. Sports teams are composed according to talent. Zidane and Yannick Noah are national heroes. The universities, culture and the arts are wide open and embracing of all.

[paranoia=on]
So, is the problem this other society? This parallel universe. A complete society within but without France. Is it them, don't they want to become French? It is true that many scoff at the thought. Don't they spit at everything French? Do they not demand to live in France, benefit of France, but only on the condition that they don't need to stoop down to the level of those French pigs? Are they not, even more so than the official France, convinced that the other society is composed of barbarians and needs to adhere to their values?

It's a powder keg and it can only get worse. One in six adult Frenchmen is foreign. One in three primary school children. Oh dear. (Some put the numbers lower, at one in seven/eight and one in four/five)

Are we being colonised? Slowly suffocated from within? Will they not rest until all is destroyed and they rule?
https://img110.imageshack.us/img110/5067/etoileay5.jpg[paranoia=off]



Oh, here's an interesting video. From someplace in Eastern Europe. I think it is -probably- remarkably similar to what happened on Sunday. When two wrongs collide (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUneG1s1GP0).

[Louis VI the Fat]

He warned the shooters, told them that we just don't do that kind of thing, visited shot officers, and had a cup of tea with the parents and told them how sorry he is for the death of their thieving hatchlings. I am extremily dissapointed, this only happens because they just can do it, scared police dhimmi politicians. Our police is useless but at least they aren't the bully's that the gendarmerie is, turns out they are bully's and on top of that useless.Useless bullies sums up the French police, yes.

I thought Sarkozy did the right things today. Sit down with the parents of these two boys, take a tough stance against shooting at the police, announce a judicial investigation. Sensible and calm.

Sarkozy is well aware of how people perceive him. He knows he's controversial, and he knows when to keep a low-profile. Both during the strikes and now he refrained from incidiary remarks and left most to his ministers. (He also only returned today from China of course, which may have been a blessing)

[Papewaio]

In a multicultural society the same rules apply to all cultures.

So if the unions were rioting and shooting people then whatever course of action was used to resolve that should be the same no matter whatever other group.

The one exception would be that those in zimmer frames or diapers should be handled with a little bit more care. But that isn't cultural demarcation that is one of age and ability.

=][=

Maybe, just maybe those who do the crime should do the time. Whilst the rest of the community should be engaged and seen what can minimize these happening again.

Of course from an outsiders point of view one thought that riots & grapeshot was a traditional French festival and even has its own national holiday... something oh Bastille day... and that all change in France had to be done in great a burst of anger with the beheading of those in charge.

I could be wrong, but when you have such a culture that celebrates such violent change that is what you will get. At least with a gun culture it is more for Freudian desires then actual regime change. :laugh4:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Of course from an outsiders point of view one thought that riots & grapeshot was a traditional French festival and even has its own national holiday... Yes, there is a great irony in that. Riots are what the big revolutionaries call the small revolutionaries.

Then again, of course, this is not accepted. France 2 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1759307&postcount=12) is not comparable to France 1 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1759306&postcount=11). For the former, urban guerilla is looting a jewellry shop and shooting at the police, while pretending to have an intifada on the left bank in Paristine. For the latter, urban guerilla is restoring old clocks while pretending the Left Bank is the beating heart of the intellectual universe.

Is this France1 a new Ancien Régime? Are we a self-centered, stilted, complacent society in blissful self-imposed isolation of the masses? Unaware that there are revolutionary outcasts knocking on the door of history?

Nah. Let these people restore old clocks if they want jewelry.*

*let them eat cake if they don't have bread - Marie-Antoinette, 1789

[Papewaio]

Nice use of Left Bank.

=][=

Is it a matter of being selective of which ideas are the correct ones to use in a riot? Are you saying that moral relativism is dead in France?

[Tribesman]

Would YOU want a Police paralysed by political correctness at a time when your country is under attack by insidious, cowardly terrorism?

WTF????????

[Tribesman]

Just as a point of interest given the topic , I was wondering how many posters here have been in a riot ?

[Adrian II]

There was some artistic license, yes. But I am very pessimistic about it all. And angry. I can certainly understand that. As I stated during the 2005 riots, the condition of the youngsters who engage in these riots is beyond repair. No job schemes, education plans or social engineering will stop the situation in the banlieus from festering for years to come. The cause of this sort of violence is not social misery, police brutality, islamist agitation, discrimination or any other particular institution, policy or national attitude. As sociologist Jacques le Goff wrote after the 2005 riots, the real issue seems to be that these youngsters are nihilist. They are out of reach for civilised society, for their teachers, for their own mothers and fathers, for the various religious authorities in the banlieus or what have you. And if you shoot a hundred of them today, you wil have two hundred of them on your hands tomorrow.

Maybe in this respect Sarkozy has finally seen the light after he committed so many blunders in 2005. He did the right thing by visiting the boys' families, who have gone out of their way to try to prevent riots and a mood of generalised anger. Think about it. The two boys may have been criminals (though nothing seems to indicate this) but their families are not. There is some sort of comfort to be taken from this.

And a moral as well. In the end only the locals -- the parents, teachers, preachers, neighbourhood watches and other local authority figures -- can take care of these youngsters. Take care as in: either 'rescuing' them from a life without value or perspective, or repressing them by chasing them off the streets and physically checking their gangs, excesses and concomitant subculture. Instead of finding jobs for the little pests, the French government should seek ways to empower and reinforce the rest of the banlieu communities who are, in the majority of cases, pretty decent, hard-working people. Their cars are set on fire, their homes and shops are burned down.

It is no problem if the French police treat these youngsters like the excrement they are. The problem is that French police and most other authorities treat the fathers and mothers, local social workers, immigrant teachers and other authority figures like excrement as well. Such attitudes have consequences.

[Geoffrey S]

Edit: nevermind. Irrelevant.

[Strike For The South]

I'll take some mexicans who wanna speak spainish:2thumbsup:

[Slyspy]

*let them eat cake if they don't have bread - Marie-Antoinette, 1789

I don't believe that there is any reliable evidence that she actually said that.

[Fragony]

In a multicultural society the same rules apply to all cultures.

So if the unions were rioting and shooting people then whatever course of action was used to resolve that should be the same no matter whatever other group.



The cause of this sort of violence is not social misery, police brutality, islamist agitation, discrimination or any other particular institution, policy or national attitude

I don't believe my eyes, but it is what it says :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

[Papewaio]

Hey if it is a cup of tea and a lie down for the unionists then it can be for the infantadaTM too. If is the napalm and limpet mines for the unionists then rainbow away on the infantadaTM. For me multiculture is you can keep your culture but you obey all of our democratic collective laws... of course if you have better laws, campaign for them and get them passed.

[Fragony]

Dear diary, I think there is hope, now if only they also understood the dangers of cultural relativism, ah well different suibject

[Papewaio]

Dear Diary,

If Fragony reads all my posts in the Sharia Rape Case he might have a heart attack.

[Adrian II]

Dear diary, I think there is hope, now if only they also understood the dangers of cultural relativism, ah well different suibjectDear Fragony, your posts always remind me of Churchill's definition of a fanatic.

The point about these youngsters is that they have various cultural backgrounds, although mostly Muslim, but that their background has little or nothing to do with their attitude or present situation. Gang culture with its emphasis on gratuitous violence, competitive law-breaking and fixation on expensive clothes and blingbling will erupt in any city with large no-go areas; because they have nowhere else to go or to make their mark, the losers of society will take over their barrio instead and turn it into a hellhole. This happens regardless of the culture, religion or political regime of the country, of the barrio or of the losers themselves. For some reason, this day and age seems to mass produce them. Hans Magnus Enzensberger wrote a great little book on the phenomenon called The Radical Loser (http://www.signandsight.com/features/493.html).

Oh, and for Louis: I found a text by Le Goff (http://www.communautarisme.net/Violences-dans-les-banlieues-regarder-la-realite-en-face_a646.html?PHPSESSID=0b169af0d98937074769dedd3f7fe5f3) where he states some of his views. I can't seem to find a larger piece which he wrote at the time and which goes into more detail. It's in French guys, sorry.

[Geoffrey S]

For some reason, this day and age seems to mass produce them.
I don't think there are necessarily (relatively) more nowadays, but that they have gained more and faster means to communicate, coordinate and devastate in modern times. Makes them rather more noticeable, certainly in that they contrast strongly with what is now the norm of centralized government.

[Fragony]

Dear Fragony, your posts always remind me of Churchill's definition of a fanatic.

Nownow, don't be like that just because you said something smart. I agree AdrianII with what you said, agreeeeeeeeeeeeee come over it's warm here.

[KrooK]

I think everyone of these criminals who are burning cars should be arrested and shot.
Actually France is simply playing with immigrants. Look at Russia - OMON know how to take care with demonstrations.

[HoreTore]

I think everyone of these criminals who are burning cars should be arrested and shot.

Perhaps they should all be put in special camps too, before killing them. Forced labour is obviously an interesting idea too.

And I'm not sure they should be shot, that may be too expensive. I hear they have some fascinating new stuff in the gas department.

[Adrian II]

I think everyone of these criminals who are burning cars should be arrested and shot.
Actually France is simply playing with immigrants. Look at Russia - OMON know how to take care with demonstrations.Indeed, we are looking more and more at Russia these days. And not as an example.

[drone]

Just as a point of interest given the topic , I was wondering how many posters here have been in a riot ?
I've been in one. Hilariously enough it was in Paris. :laugh4:

[Fragony]

I've been in one. Hilariously enough it was in Paris. :laugh4:

Hey was that during the student riots? I was also there. They tend to follow me, was also in Copenhagen when they went nuts there :beam:

edit, and no I wasn't there to riot just visiting friends

[Slug For A Butt]

None! I've got a ballot paper that I use.
And whether I like the Government or not, I have to abide by the decision of my peers. I like democracy, and the idea that a minority of people will get their own way by violence is abhorrent to me.

[drone]

Hey was that during the student riots? I was also there. They tend to follow me, was also in Copenhagen when they went nuts there :beam:

edit, and no I wasn't there to riot just visiting friends
I was on vacation, seeing the sights of Paris. Then NATO starts the Kosovo air campaign. ~:rolleyes: Caught up with a crowd between the Louvre and the Place de la Concorde. A bunch of protesters were trying to block traffic in the square and fighting with police. I wasn't aware at the time that the US embassy is there, otherwise I probably would have bailed immediately. We watched for a while on the hill looking down, the number of protesters grew and the cops did their line charges, everybody seemed to be having a grand old time. And then some moron in our crowd starts waving a Yugoslav flag and the tear gas canisters starts coming our way. Hilarity ensues. Ah, Paris in springtime.

It was pretty surreal, for the rest of the day (and night), you could hear sirens and see the cops driving all over the place, but it seemed like business as usual for everybody else. That one wasn't as bad as the 2005 riots, minimal property damage and not organized very well. But it did complete the Paris experience. ~D

[AntiochusIII]

Hans Magnus Enzensberger wrote a great little book on the phenomenon called The Radical Loser (http://www.signandsight.com/features/493.html).What a curious article. If the original German word for "loser" used in this article is anything close in connotation to the translation, then I must seriously object to several points in the article.

Put it simply, it merely reiterates old sentiments in a modern, Islamist context -- not exactly the most innovative thing ever quite frankly. The very same "social psychologists" that he apparently has a disdain for have been saying that for years: the isolation, the alienation, the expression of all the usual facets in terms of murderous rage.

Of course, the fact that he refers to the "radical loser" as one entity throughout leaves a lot to be desired as well: it is an incredible assumption that all of these "radical losers" are the same, implying an inherent human nature, and then justifies its existence by referring to the modern society's capitalistic, competitive "world," which, while far-reaching, is not absolutely so. Why, there are many types of losers in the world even! One could argue that they're all expressions of the same sentiment, but the suicide bomber, the network terrorist, the hacker, the guerilla, the Nazi, the radical student, the otaku, the displaced gangster youth, and the school shooter are all very different.

This concept of "loser" is not at all new. In fact I'm rather familiar with it -- the portrayal of an isolated, frustrated human being, one whose potential has taken a destructive turn, is very old. One could make a strong case that Raskolnikov of Crime and Punishment is at home among them, even. And I'm positively certain that a certain "Saito" from Welcome to the NHK is the very prototype of one.

In the second part where he focuses his attention on Islamism, the insight becomes more "generic." So the Arabic World has been in decline, is "deficient" in social, political, and economic development, and consequently something of a mass inferiority complex occurs... well, tell me something I didn't already hear a thousand times over! At least it's better than yet another "Islam is evil" chant...

It's a pretty cynical article; unfortunately, like many of its type, while it offers a certain level of analysis, it's too indulged in its own intellectual superiority to notice that nothing new is really being said.

*Note: critique of the article doesn't necessary mean I fundamentally disagree with it, or the poster who posted it, or the person who wrote it, etc.

[Tristuskhan]

I've been twice in a riot.

First a gentle one, in Paris 1991 (1992?), students. Impressive when you are sixteen. Throwing bricks and whatever you find on the CRS (compagnies républicaines de sécurité, our drunk praetorians) is a marvellous moment.

The second one was lots more serious... 1994, Rennes, Brittany: the CRS vs Fishermen. 24 ours of urban guerilla and close fighting. Pavement fully removed of most streets in the center, molotovs, barricades... Could have been fun if the 16th century Parliament of Brittany had not been set on fire by an alarm firecracker (I don't know the word in english... sailors use those kind of pistols in case of emergency, nevermind). I saw a part of my people's history turn to ashes, brrr....

[Slug For A Butt]

[QUOTE=Tristuskhan] alarm firecracker (I don't know the word in english... sailors use those kind of pistols in case of emergency, nevermind).

In English it's a "Flare"

[Vladimir]

That's pretty sad. Throwing things at each other can be fun but burning down history makes me mad. However it is neat to hear about these things. The biggest riot I attended growing up took place in a corn field.

[Adrian II]

Why, there are many types of losers in the world even! One could argue that they're all expressions of the same sentiment, but the suicide bomber, the network terrorist, the hacker, the guerilla, the Nazi, the radical student, the otaku, the displaced gangster youth, and the school shooter are all very different.Enzensberger tries to capture the sentiment that they all share, all the while recognizing the differences between radical losers (hence his use of the expression 'a thousand faces'). He is right that such radical losers are usually treated as isolated, incomprehensible cases by the media and by most experts, whereas in reality they represent a type, even a social category, that can act collectively when it adopts an ideology and work actively toward its own destruction. This is quite a new viewpoint. As is his view of the former Afghani Taliban regime as a selfdestructive gang -- a regime that had essentially already given up on itself when it shocked and angered the entire world in 2001.

Indeed, at first sight Raskolnikov would seem to be a (literary) case in point, but he is not consciously selfdestructive and this sets him apart from the personality type described by Enzensberger.

[Tribesman]

None!
Just the answer I was looking for and just the answer I expected delivered .
That explains a lot about your posts on the topic Slug .

[Tristuskhan]

In English it's a "Flare"

Thanks... The fire was not intentionnal, Breton fishermen won't do such blasphemy (ask Louis about it if you don't believe me). An accident. That was the sad end of a day that saw the CRS pull back, withdraw, even flee sometimes, come back, mind their wounded, release an incredible amount of lacrymo gas (your eyes were crying everywhere in this 250000 inhab. city). Well maybe it was the single occurence where I saw the police forces sweating for their wages.

[Papewaio]

the idea that a minority of people will get their own way by violence is abhorrent to me.

But isn't that how the Royal family got their position? :inquisitive: :dizzy2:

[Mikeus Caesar]

I've been twice in a riot.

First a gentle one, in Paris 1991 (1992?), students. Impressive when you are sixteen. Throwing bricks and whatever you find on the CRS (compagnies républicaines de sécurité, our drunk praetorians) is a marvellous moment.

The second one was lots more serious... 1994, Rennes, Brittany: the CRS vs Fishermen. 24 ours of urban guerilla and close fighting. Pavement fully removed of most streets in the center, molotovs, barricades... Could have been fun if the 16th century Parliament of Brittany had not been set on fire by an alarm firecracker (I don't know the word in english... sailors use those kind of pistols in case of emergency, nevermind). I saw a part of my people's history turn to ashes, brrr....

Flare gun is the word you're looking for, i think. Either that, or just a normal flare.

Sounds like fun, shame about the destruction of the Parliament building.

[Tristuskhan]

That's pretty sad. Throwing things at each other can be fun but burning down history makes me mad. However it is neat to hear about these things. The biggest riot I attended growing up took place in a corn field.

~D I want to know more about that!

[Vladimir]

I don't remember too much, lots of drinking; I think we were protesting nature or something. Many green things died that night. :shame:

[ICantSpellDawg]

On the positive side, the situation of racial tension with solve itself eventually. Either multiculturalism will work and we will all become one mishmash of people who can't possibly hate each other OR we will destroy and kill everyone of another race. Either way, problem solved.

Until we find something else to hate each other about. Specific Religious denomination, Marmalade, existence of sasquatch anyone?

Personally, I hate Left wing people in my own country infinitely more than muslims in my own country. If I only had one bullet and I was left alone in a room with a conservative black person, a conservative middle eastern person, an conservative east asian person and a left-wing U.S. citizen, I would probably pull the trigger on the westerner.

For some reason, I get along with proud people from other cultures. I don't get along with traitorous elitists. All conservative people have a common enemy. I think this utopian single war would help everyone focus their anger and avoid localized war.

I am partially joking.

[Fragony]

For some reason, I get along with proud people from other cultures. I don't get along with traitorous elitists.

I am so with you. It's just a game for the elite. Marx said that religion is opium for the people, I say that multiculturalism is opium for the elite. One religion replaces the other.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I am so with you. It's just a game for the elite. Marx said that religion is opium for the people, I say that multiculturalism is opium for the elite. One religion replaces the other.

I concur. There is such a thing as listening to the new without abandoning the old.

[Andres]

I am so with you. It's just a game for the elite. Marx said that religion is opium for the people, I say that multiculturalism is opium for the elite. One religion replaces the other.

Multicul = flauwekul ?

~;)

Well, like it or not, but multiculturalism is not "a religion", it is a fact which we are confronted with in our present Western societies :shrug:

[Don Corleone]

I think multiculturalism is fine. Just like feminism is fine. Just like most ideas are fine, in theory.

Multiculturalism, at its core, simply says we'll have respect and tolerance for those who think and act differently than we do, so long as they're not hurting anybody. I don't see what the harm is here. And although I'm probably one of the biggest opponents of the Multicultural Mafia that want to ban Christmas and want to toss people in jail for saying 'Bless you' when somebody sneezes, the underlying premise is not the problem. It's the warped logic and lack of balance by those carrying it out. In this, I agree with most of its supporters. Where we disagree is just how badly out of kilter the MM can be sometimes.

Take this case, for example. If all the youths want is for people not to despise them and spit at them for being of Algerian/Moroccan descent, they have a very valid point, one I would be happy to make on their behalf. But molotov cocktails are not the answer, and for people who agree that the youths have a point to take up the defense not only of their cause, but their means of furthering it, that is where it all goes south. But neither is the declaration 'this is what happens whenever somebody talks about multiculturalism' particularly valid. Multiculturalism (small m) is not the problem, the lack of intelligence exhibited by those who should know better is.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Multicul = flauwekul ?

~;)

Well, like it or not, but multiculturalism is not "a religion", it is a fact which we are confronted with in our present Western societies :shrug:

And it must be dealt with by everyone. Pretty similar problem to Israel/Palestine. 70 years ago some a-hole decided to open the borders and let Israel wage war/ terrorism on local peoples, now local peoples have been driven totally insane and are giving it back with no real end in sight. They are both lunatic factions and are now killing unrelated innocents on both sides.

Thank you liberal western elite for that one too.

[Fragony]

Multiculturalism, at its core, simply says we'll have respect and tolerance for those who think and act differently than we do, so long as they're not hurting anybody.

That is why the concept is flawed, we already have a tolerant culture. Foreigners live here and can live the life they want, that is not multiculture it is western culture. We have the constitution, the tolerance it is bases upon, that is enough we don't need to sit on eachother lap to know someone is a human being but idealists tend to get lost in a pretty fine enviroment. It's like puberty.
Keep a respectable distance, and don't try to convince people we are all the same because we simply are different and that is fine.

[AntiochusIII]

LOL, this thread has just turned into a Leftist bashing contest.

No offense guys, but y'all are acting out some obvious bigotry here.

Otherwise,


Enzensberger tries to capture the sentiment that they all share, all the while recognizing the differences between radical losers (hence his use of the expression 'a thousand faces'). He is right that such radical losers are usually treated as isolated, incomprehensible cases by the media and by most experts, whereas in reality they represent a type, even a social category, that can act collectively when it adopts an ideology and work actively toward its own destruction. This is quite a new viewpoint. As is his view of the former Afghani Taliban regime as a selfdestructive gang -- a regime that had essentially already given up on itself when it shocked and angered the entire world in 2001.Now that I read your post, I begin to agree. He phrases it in an Islamist-terrorism context, and consequently loses a large part of the "novelty" with what I'd say a pretty generic rhetoric; but your clarification has a point. The new angle he brings up is that this pursuit of self-destruction can be done in an organizational level, and it could, if not altogether ought, to be considered as a social sub-group.

I cannot ignore the underlying generalization still: a group the size of the Taliban doesn't necessary carry all the traits of his "loser" concept -- but collectively they might, a sort of a multiplier, and it's a good point to ponder.

Also, a question, if I may: what were the connotations for the original word used in the German article for "loser?" I fear my understanding of the article is by a large part supported by the English connotations for this word -- which isn't exactly flattering to his point, in fact it made his viewpoint seem dearly simplistic at times...

[Adrian II]

Also, a question, if I may: what were the connotations for the original word used in the German article for "loser?"The German is 'Verlierer' and it is defined as 'one who loses'. In modern german the word is completely neutral. It has no connotation of 'born loser' for instance, or 'lowlife', as the Americans say.

[Brenus]

I am sorry. The Riots are finished in France, end of the Intifada, streets are not burning, the oppressed ethnic minorities are not Jacques and the night of the 4th of August will have to wait.:laugh4:
Nice headlines for newspapers just vanished… It is not fair.:no:

“Actually France is simply playing with immigrants”: The people in the streets are not immigrants. They are French. If they are denied of this citizenship, we have to vote again because most of them are in the same situation than the French President, third generation…:beam:
Now, Sarkozy’s system is starting to crumble. He was the Minister of Interior during 5 years. During this period, he promised to restore security to the banlieues, to put an end to the no-go, free of laws zones etc.
He succeeded so well that it took just an accident to just start riots…

“I think this utopian single war would help everyone focus their anger and avoid localized war.” Read 1984: George Orwell, a lefty… You know, “Big Brother is watching you”.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

“All conservative people have a common enemy” You are definitively a conservative, and a Marxist one.

“We will all become one mishmash of people” We ARE mishmash of people… That won’t prevent wars or hate mind you… See chapter civil wars, France, Spain, and Former Yugoslavia recently…

“One religion replaces the other” Err, religions are opium of the People… We just add a new thing… Not multi-cultures but PC…
BUT, I remember when we thought that borders were not the future, when we thought men and women were equal, when we thought that access for all to water, food and shelters was more important than money, when we thought of a world of Dignity for each, when slavery wasn’t hind behind “cultural/ religious” differences, when the very symbols of oppression were not symbols of freedom…

“I don't get along with traitorous elitists.” Funny that… I am what you call a lefty. Coming from a family of soldiers, peasants and workers… Basically my family could be a soviet by itself. I don’t feel myself as elitist and for sure not as traitor. Thanks to History, my family lost members on quite all the battle fields where our nice conservative masters sent them for the glory of France and the good health of the stock-exchange…
If one day you speak with a real lefty, not the one in a boudoir or garden party, you will have a shock. You won’t find more disciplined fighter, more proud worker…
I don’t share all what they believed in, but there is one think I know: I am proud even of their mistakes, because they thought it was for the good of others… I don’t speak of their political masters, I speak of the ones who died for others’ freedom… The ones who were shot-up because they wanted more justice, or in fact, just to get enough money to feed their family, to sent their kids to school, and with a bit of luck and hard work to climb the social ladder…
They had a dream: Work will give better life, not shares, not stock options, not oppression…

I share with you one thing. Our enemies, my enemies are not the Poles, the Indians, the Pakistanis workers, but the people exploiting them, enchaining them in mediocrity and debts…

[Fragony]

“One religion replaces the other” Err, religions are opium of the People… We just add a new thing… Not multi-cultures but PC…

BUT, I remember when we thought that borders were not the future

Need I say more, open borders means nationality's don't exist nothing more. Multiculturalism is a religion and out of all religions it's by far the most intolerant of other people who think otherwise. Open borders was welcome and bring your whole retared village because, ehm, why exactly? Absolute faith, that is why. Fast forward to the present.

[Brenus]

“Multiculturalism is a religion and out of all religions it's by far the most intolerant of other people who think otherwise”. Can you provide your definition of a religion? If any belief is a religion, X-mass father is a religion, black cats and bad luck is a religion, all superstitions are religions, all political ideas and movements are religions…
I am still waiting for the Inquisitions and others fatwa from Multi-cultures. In fact I still wait for a Church, clergy and dogma, kind of “You Shall Married –or a Least Make Babies- with a Different Skin Colour than Yours Partner”.

“open borders means nationality's don't exist nothing more” Nationalities are quite new… It is a new concept, completely ignored until modern times… Before you were define by your Religion or to whom you belong (Kingdoms, Empires etc).
At the people level, you were defined by communities, villages, or sometime, trade…

Passports were invented by states in the 19th century. I give you that most of the population didn’t move too much before… Not totally true this, but mostly… Voltaire, Du Bellay, Leonardo da Vinci or others skilled or talented people were travelling within the known world without any administrative problems…

[Fragony]

I am still waiting for the Inquisitions and others fatwa from Multi-cultures.

Oh? Look at the eighties, a period of absolute faith and stunning brutality. It is exactly that that brought us where are we are now, any critique on the clerchy was enough to get you excommunicated, bye career, a terrifying prospect indeed. Being flat-out agaiinst it made you a heretic, even worse. It has all aspects of an organised religion, with more religious fanatics in political positions then any other religion to date, and should be treated as such.

[Geoffrey S]

That is why the concept is flawed, we already have a tolerant culture. Foreigners live here and can live the life they want, that is not multiculture it is western culture. We have the constitution, the tolerance it is bases upon, that is enough we don't need to sit on eachother lap to know someone is a human being but idealists tend to get lost in a pretty fine enviroment. It's like puberty.
Keep a respectable distance, and don't try to convince people we are all the same because we simply are different and that is fine.
To me, that is my definition of multiculture: different cultures living alongside each other within one legal/nation-state framework, not necessarily below a supposed dominant culture. It's when that framework is undermined by particular cultures (or supposed representatives thereof) demanding seperate rights that things go wrong in my opinion, whether it comes from types like Wilders or Mohammed B.

[Fragony]

Sounds like we agree then, still going to vote on him though, let them sweat a little.

[Shahed]

I am sorry. The Riots are finished in France, end of the Intifada, streets are not burning, the oppressed ethnic minorities are not Jacques and the night of the 4th of August will have to wait.:laugh4:
Nice headlines for newspapers just vanished… It is not fair.:no:

“Actually France is simply playing with immigrants”: The people in the streets are not immigrants. They are French. If they are denied of this citizenship, we have to vote again because most of them are in the same situation than the French President, third generation…:beam:
Now, Sarkozy’s system is starting to crumble. He was the Minister of Interior during 5 years. During this period, he promised to restore security to the banlieues, to put an end to the no-go, free of laws zones etc.
He succeeded so well that it took just an accident to just start riots…

“I think this utopian single war would help everyone focus their anger and avoid localized war.” Read 1984: George Orwell, a lefty… You know, “Big Brother is watching you”.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

“All conservative people have a common enemy” You are definitively a conservative, and a Marxist one.

“We will all become one mishmash of people” We ARE mishmash of people… That won’t prevent wars or hate mind you… See chapter civil wars, France, Spain, and Former Yugoslavia recently…

“One religion replaces the other” Err, religions are opium of the People… We just add a new thing… Not multi-cultures but PC…
BUT, I remember when we thought that borders were not the future, when we thought men and women were equal, when we thought that access for all to water, food and shelters was more important than money, when we thought of a world of Dignity for each, when slavery wasn’t hind behind “cultural/ religious” differences, when the very symbols of oppression were not symbols of freedom…

“I don't get along with traitorous elitists.” Funny that… I am what you call a lefty. Coming from a family of soldiers, peasants and workers… Basically my family could be a soviet by itself. I don’t feel myself as elitist and for sure not as traitor. Thanks to History, my family lost members on quite all the battle fields where our nice conservative masters sent them for the glory of France and the good health of the stock-exchange…
If one day you speak with a real lefty, not the one in a boudoir or garden party, you will have a shock. You won’t find more disciplined fighter, more proud worker…
I don’t share all what they believed in, but there is one think I know: I am proud even of their mistakes, because they thought it was for the good of others… I don’t speak of their political masters, I speak of the ones who died for others’ freedom… The ones who were shot-up because they wanted more justice, or in fact, just to get enough money to feed their family, to sent their kids to school, and with a bit of luck and hard work to climb the social ladder…
They had a dream: Work will give better life, not shares, not stock options, not oppression…

I share with you one thing. Our enemies, my enemies are not the Poles, the Indians, the Pakistanis workers, but the people exploiting them, enchaining them in mediocrity and debts…

That was impressive.

[AntiochusIII]

The German is 'Verlierer' and it is defined as 'one who loses'. In modern german the word is completely neutral. It has no connotation of 'born loser' for instance, or 'lowlife', as the Americans say.Thank you. That explains much of his point.

You are correct in that the American connotation of "loser" rubs me the wrong way (blame it on Anglo-Saxon cultural traits in the English language). The German word produces a far more understandable meaning. At this point I'd say I agree with him pretty much.


Also, Fragony is on his trip again. :dizzy2:

[Fragony]

If I am wrong then why am I right all the time, been predicting this as long as I have been here. And I will continue to be right just because I am.

[Meneldil]

If they are denied of this citizenship, we have to vote again because most of them are in the same situation than the French President, third generation…:beam:
Now, Sarkozy’s system is starting to crumble. He was the Minister of Interior during 5 years. During this period, he promised to restore security to the banlieues, to put an end to the no-go, free of laws zones etc.
He succeeded so well that it took just an accident to just start riots…


Hum, how are they denied their citizenship ? They can vote, they can get a job. It's just that most of them simply don't want to. Period.

Some of them studied hard, got a job or even created their own company. It is possible to get a decent life even when coming from one of those crappy suburban areas.

Thing is, most of them are stupid lazy asses, who somehow think that since they live in France, they deserve money and respect. They've been told "French are racist", so they don't even try. That's not how it work. You earn respect and money, and rioting is quite not the best way to do it.

I'm seriously tired by all the people who support this kind of idiots, for the sake of PC, human rights, multiculturalism or whatever. Don't you see the hypocrisy here ? They're pissing the hell out of their neighbours - whose life isn't that great either -, they're burning schools, libraries - the very things that could have helped them if only they decided to use their brain for once in their sad lives - and whatnot and you go "dude that's fine, their fight is righteous, they've been oppressed".

Hopefully, this time, they aren't getting a lot of sympathy, even from usually left-winged people.

[ICantSpellDawg]

On the positive side, the situation of racial tension with solve itself eventually. Either multiculturalism will work and we will all become one mishmash of people who can't possibly hate each other OR we will destroy and kill everyone of another race. Either way, problem solved.

Until we find something else to hate each other about. Specific Religious denomination, Marmalade, existence of sasquatch anyone?

Personally, I hate Left wing people in my own country infinitely more than muslims in my own country. If I only had one bullet and I was left alone in a room with a conservative black person, a conservative middle eastern person, an conservative east asian person and a left-wing U.S. citizen, I would probably pull the trigger on the westerner.

For some reason, I get along with proud people from other cultures. I don't get along with traitorous elitists. All conservative people have a common enemy. I think this utopian single war would help everyone focus their anger and avoid localized war.

I am partially joking.


That was a statement of irony, Brenus. The Irony is that our blood boils more quickly when discussing local matters than it does with those on the outside. Tell me, as a westerner, that you wouldnt fight me before you would fight a jihadist, simply because of our relatively incompatible beliefs (assuming that we have many)

The point is that I don't have as much of a problem with the Hispanic immigrants in my area as I do with my self-righteous neighbors who want to establish spanish as a national language.


I'm not advocating a theoretical marxist war.

[Brenus]

“Hum, how are they denied their citizenship”: In making them immigrants, like outside of the French society. They are French. And stupid, lazy whatever you want. But to say it is an immigration problem is just a none sense.
I was just pointing out that Sarkozy is himself “from the immigration” and what a success…
“Don't you see the hypocrisy here ?” I do, I did it long time ago, in the 80, with the movement “Touche pas a mon pote” which started the idea of living side by side instead of together… I am a universalistic, not for every body in his ghetto… :wall:

“That was a statement of irony, Brenus. The Irony is that our blood boils more quickly when discussing local matters than it does with those on the outside. Tell me, as a westerner, that you wouldnt fight me before you would fight a jihadist, simply because of our relatively incompatible beliefs (assuming that we have many)” Oops, my mistake… :shame:
I would fight any fanatic, crusaders or jihadist because in both cases they will kill me (burn or beheaded…). I am a non-believer in a supreme nice loving entity…

[Papewaio]

Thing is, most of them are stupid lazy asses, who somehow think that since they live in France, they deserve money and respect.

Sounds like they are French to me. Like at the agricultural scheme for instance... looks like they have integrated very well indeed as they are modeling their behaviour off the French farmers.