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View Full Version : Cavalry charging versus dual wielding spear/sword


gurakshun
11-28-2007, 00:48
Hi all,

Playing around again and I noticed something very odd with my galatian heavy spearman. Now as I understand, if infantry have spears as their primary (1) and go into status "ready" to receive a cavalry charge (2), facing the cavalry charge directly (3), then (4) a large portion of the cavalry's charge will be reflected back on itself.

The problem comes up with units like the galatikoi kuarothoroi (units like this with sword as primary, and spear as secondary including: Solduros, Rycalawre, etc.) are horribly ineffective at defending against a cavalry charge because since their primary weapon is the sword, they can never go into "ready" stance with the spears up and return the cavalry's charge. You would think they would be especially good at taking down cavs since they have the tag Heavy Spearmen by their name...instead, they take massive losses by cavalry.

Where on the other hand, units like Hoplites with spears out and "ready" status will absolutely ruin charging cavalry. Why would Hoplites be better at receiving and combating cavalry compared to an elite unit specially designated to take down cavalry?

I was wondering if this was an issue that warrants attention. Thanks for your time.
Cheexsta
11-28-2007, 01:00
From memory, all spear attacks get a bonus against cavalry and a penalty against infantry. When they're in Ready mode, they also get an additional bonus on top of that.

So your Kuarothoroi will still get some bonus against the cavalry when their spears are pulled out, just not as much as units already with spears. Besides, the Kuarothoroi secondary attack (ie their spear) still has a higher rating than the Hoplitai primary attack (16 vs 14), so while they might lose a few more on the charge they'll still be better overall for killing cavalry once they get stuck in.
gurakshun
11-28-2007, 01:11
From memory, all spear attacks get a bonus against cavalry and a penalty against infantry. When they're in Ready mode, they also get an additional bonus on top of that.

So your Kuarothoroi will still get some bonus against the cavalry when their spears are pulled out, just not as much as units already with spears. Besides, the Kuarothoroi secondary attack (ie their spear) still has a higher rating than the Hoplitai primary attack (16 vs 14), so while they might lose a few more on the charge they'll still be better overall for killing cavalry once they get stuck in.

The spear is the GK's secondary weapon. From what I have tried so far, you can't have your secondary weapon out without actually attacking an enemy unit. The objective is to get the GKs to stand still with the spears out, facing the cavalry charge. That would be the most effective and typical of a "heavy spearman" unit. This is also not possible because AFAIK I can't have the GK's hold their spears out while just standing there and not moving.

Also, even though the GK's spear attack is slightly higher than the Hoplite's, you must agree with me in saying that the main strength of cavalry is in the charge. They die in melee easily enough (besides, in standing, locked melee, I would want to have the swords out instead of the spears because of the lethality). But Hoplites have a huge advantage in being able to block a lot of the charge, making them excellent flank guards. GKs, who are also supposed to excel at guarding the flanks from cavs, are at a huge disadvantage in this sense, and they only have a SLIGHT advantage in melee due to 2 higher points in attack, but lose massively in not being able to block the primary strength of the enemy cavalry, being the charge itself.
Intranetusa
11-28-2007, 01:17
You can probably switch the primary and secondary weapons around in the export_descr_units file...

I smell EB 1.1 :D
Pharnakes
11-28-2007, 01:26
Not really.

Very buggy, hence why hoplites no longer have swords.
Intranetusa
11-28-2007, 01:38
Not really.

Very buggy, hence why hoplites no longer have swords.

Well, as long as they don't have the sarissa phalanx or the short pike attribute (TW Fanatic's phalanx mod)...I think the massilian hoplites have a long sword and spear w/ a close formation.
TWFanatic
11-28-2007, 04:37
IMO, it's always better to charge than receive a charge. So my advice to you is to press alt+attack. They'll charge with their spears and defeat any cavalry unit head on (except perhaps cataphracts).
Raphia
11-28-2007, 05:36
IMO, it's always better to charge than receive a charge. So my advice to you is to press alt+attack. They'll charge with their spears and defeat any cavalry unit head on (except perhaps cataphracts).

Seconded that will make alot of differenece