Antiochos the Great

[anubis88]

Hi i have a question about the historians on the forum... Although i'm also a historyan, i (at least trying to be:book: ) i have never comed across this info.
So, im nearing 200 Bc with my Arche campaign and i'm ready to invade Europe.
Since i like to play historycally, i'm wondering what was antiochoses plan? which cities should i attack first in EB? where did his army land?

Thanx for any info you can give, since i'm a Seleucia fan ever since i've heard of them (when i bought RTW :sweatdrop: )

[Folgore]

Check out Appian's History of the Syrian Wars here:
http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/appian/appian_syriaca_00.html

I think you'll find your answer there.

[keravnos]

His plan was to fight the Romans. He should have been more careful. First step would have been to destroy Pergamon. Then either befriend Makedonia or enslave them. Then the rest of Greece. Then tackle Roma. I am pretty certain that Romani would send legions after legions, but with his Mikrasian flanks secure, Antiochos could probably beat them.

As it were, the way the situation unfolded, Antiochos kept trying to field a good enough force to fight the Romani, they were one step ahead, and when actually managing to field a great force that would have defeated them, the decision to emply scythed chariots destroyed his left flank and ultimately his army, whereas he along with his Kataphracts, destroyed a roman legion and almost captured the Roman camp.

All in all, he didn't have a good strategy. If I were in his place and was planing to fight the Romans this is what I would have done.

[anubis88]

Wow Folgore, this is by far the greatest thing i've read on the internet in the past years... Never thought such information existed... that an assault on italy and an alliance with carthage was possible.... awesome.... THANK YOU so much!!!:2thumbsup:

[Emperor Burakuku]

OMG! This is so nice, I would like to thank both of you. When you think I had nothing left to read except some study on modern period in Asia. Thanks alot Folgore. :2thumbsup:

[Reno Melitensis]

All in all, he didn't have a good strategy.

Kervanos is wright here. Antiochos was an old style general, he wanted to be the next Alexander. In the Ancient Warfare mag. there is a good describtion of the battle of Magnesia, and how it was won. In fact it was the king of Pergamon, whose name I forgot, allied to Rome that routed the chariots, light cavalry and skirmishers on the left wing of the Selucids. Antiochos was far away from events to influence events. In the end the Roman legions showered the phalanxes with pila.

He should have used his superior cavalry to hammer the Romans from the flanks or rear, while the Phalangites, Agema , Galatians and other troops he had in his army kept them in check from the front. But it is this way that battles are won or lost at the end of the day.

Cheers

[Emperor Burakuku]

Kervanos is wright here. Antiochos was an old style general, he wanted to be the next Alexander. In the Ancient Warfare mag. there is a good describtion of the battle of Magnesia, and how it was won. In fact it was the king of Pergamon, whose name I forgot, allied to Rome that routed the chariots, light cavalry and skirmishers on the left wing of the Selucids. Antiochos was far away from events to influence events. In the end the Roman legions showered the phalanxes with pila.

He should have used his superior cavalry to hammer the Romans from the flanks or rear, while the Phalangites, Agema , Galatians and other troops he had in his army kept them in check from the front. But it is this way that battles are won or lost at the end of the day.

Cheers


"Eumenes, having succeeded admirably in his first attempt and cleared the ground held by the dromedaries and chariots, led his own horse and those of the Romans and Italians in his division against the Galatians, the Cappadocians, and the other collection of mercenaries opposed to him, cheering loudly and exhorting them to have no fear of these inexperienced men who had been deprived of their advance supports. They obeyed him and made so heavy a charge that they put to flight not only those, but the adjoining squadrons and the mail-clad horse, who were already thrown into disorder by the chariots. The greater part of these, unable to turn and fly quickly, on account of the weight of their armor, were captured or killed. While this was the state of affairs on the left of the Macedonian phalanx, Antiochus, on the right, broke through the Roman line of battle, dismembered it, and pursued a long distance." Appain - Syriaca

[abou]

This thread displeases me greatly.

[anubis88]

Why?:dizzy2:

[Pharnakes]

Its about the death of the seleukids and the end of the greek hegonomy?


It makes me sad to read it. ~:mecry:

[Emperor Burakuku]

This thread displeases me greatly.

Is just a version mate. Maybe you misunderstood. My favorite EB faction is AS. We know that Appian is quite underestimated between greek historians. Don't get it, why are you so displeased?

[Emperor Burakuku]

I still don't get it...

[Pharnakes]

Thats no excuse to spam.:whip:


BTW, nice sig.



incedentaly, this post is also spam.:juggle2:

[Emperor Burakuku]

You're right Pharnakes :). Is just that it seems that I and him have the exact same preferences and still, we're humans ans so we don't get along. And it this saddens me the most.

P.S Thanks for the sig. :)

[Pharnakes]

I have to admit, I am slightly confused, I don't see what the problem with the thread is..:dizzy2:

But I don't think he has a problem with you, which you seem to imply you think.


You always have your dog.:2thumbsup:


And abou's bark is probably worse than his bite.:sweatdrop:


Alright, I'm leaving.:shame:

[Emperor Burakuku]

I honestly think the problem is with the post itself and with the fact that Antiochos III Megas was defeated at Magnesia. Or whatever, not with me. And it doesn't matter anyways. Peace :2thumbsup: . My problem is with the human limits when it comes to understanding and with the fact that Antiochos was defeated. And that Hannibal was defeated. And that some historians like more SF than real facts and with many other things. But we're all humans and we're not perfect. And with that I will go to bed as I am awake for more than 40h listening to Dream Theatre - Misunderstood. Cheers

[kambiz]

This thread displeases me greatly. I don't care ! They were alien to eastern people. And they were occupier. Actually I think they lasted longer than they should. People of the region should threw them out sooner.

[Pharnakes]

BAH! you'd rather the Romans?:gah2:

[L.C.Cinna]

I honestly think the problem is with the fact that Antiochos III Megas was defeated at Magnesia.

that's what happens to people who call themselves "great" before actually achiveing anything great... as a greek he should have known about the concept of hybris and nemesis :croc:


;)

[Pharnakes]

He did do quite a bit, you know. He just slipped up a bit at magnesia.:sweatdrop:

[L.C.Cinna]

well he screwed Raphia and his eastern campaigns were nothing special really.

he followed Alexanders path, scared some rebellious Satraps with his big army (I mean he didn't really defeat anyone just forced them to sign treaties which none of them took too serious as soon as he was gone). and then went back and started a little propaganda campaign showing him as the new Alexander...

sure he wasn't all that bad but never enough for a title like "Megas" :inquisitive:

[Long lost Caesar]

what is/are hybris and the other mentioned thing (cant be bothered to go back and check right now) Ive heard of them before, but dont actually know! cheers

[Pharnakes]

sure he wasn't all that bad but never enough for a title like "Megas" :inquisitive:

True.

[TWFanatic]

Its about the death of the seleukids and the end of the greek hegonomy?


It makes me sad to read it. ~:mecry:
And Rome's conquest.

Wooh!:beam:

[Pharnakes]

Either you shall leave the AtB team, sir or I shall.



J/K:clown:


EDIT: And take the Galatians with you! Damn stinking roman-loving barbararians....


*goes off muttering to himself*

[Emperor Burakuku]

Romans VS Seleukides. This is the question... all of us into history and we're taking anout imagination? This is strage. Maibe it's just the beer. Romans won, Antiochos Megas lost and that's the way thing are. Think about this: if he would have won, we wouldn't be speaking now... sorry for my english, but I really am kinda drunk.

[Spoofa]

what would Antiochos's victory have anything to do with us speaking now? its not like the romans invented the internet or computers... >.>

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
CN.AEMILIVS.POMPONVS was going to invent the Internet much earlier, had the republic continued. OCTAVIANVS.CAESAR plotted with ALBERTVS.CORVS against him. :shame:
.

[L.C.Cinna]

.
CN.AEMILIVS.POMPONVS was going to invent the Internet much earlier, had the republic continued. OCTAVIANVS.CAESAR plotted with ALBERTVS.CORVS against him. :shame:
.


lmgdfao *sorry drunk too* :2thumbsup:

[Sarcasm]

I don't care ! They were alien to eastern people. And they were occupier. Actually I think they lasted longer than they should. People of the region should threw them out sooner.

I think we should throw YOU out.

Gotta love nationalist-fundamentalism.

[Thaatu]

I think we should throw YOU out.

Gotta love nationalist-fundamentalism.
He-he-he. Sarcasm showing where he got his name. He-he-he. :sweatdrop:


(Are you cracy!? If you keep pissing everyone off the whole worlds going to stack up on you.)


He-he-he, funny guy that Sarcasm. :sweatdrop:

[Pharnakes]

I like Sarcasm.

He says all the things I want to say, but don't dare to cause I would get kicked out, not being on the eb team.:clown:


Have some balloons.:balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2:

[Conqueror]

I doubt that there was anything so "alien" about greeks that the babylonians, assyrians, judeans, egyptians etc. would have wanted to throw them out any more so than they would have any other foreign occupier. Now, if they were made subject to harsher treatment/taxes, that's certainly reason for greater antagonism, but I wouldn't term that "alien". Beyond that, why would any non-greek, non-iranian subjects of the monarch care whether that monarch happened to be greek or iranian?

[Emperor Burakuku]

what would Antiochos's victory have anything to do with us speaking now? its not like the romans invented the internet or computers... >.>

It's one of the 4 fundamental thruts of logics that says something like... that every action has a counter-action... thus meaning that we, speaking here, are the counter-action of the Romans beating Antiochos... combined of acourse with the butterfly effect. Do I make any sens?

P.S I have a hangover. Maybe now it makes sens.

[Pharnakes]

More or less.

[Emperor Burakuku]

More or less.

Thank you! It's the damn hangover that's minimazing my "explanining skills".

[Lysandros]

His plan was to fight the Romans.


I'm not sure about that. That sounds as if Antiochos was the aggressor that definitely wanted war with the Romans. I have written a paper about the "cold war" between Rome and Antiochos III. as it was often refered to among historians. Anyway, I recommend also reading Polybios and to a lesser degree Livius (who copied Polybios for large parts but wrote in a very rome-friendly manner).

[Emperor Burakuku]

If I were a roman in those time, I would have wanted be the first to strike (as they probably did in their overconfidence). Not just because of the fact that Magna Grecia was in danger of Antiochos or because of the numerous embassies they received from Perganum and others, but simply because of the fact that Antiochos was making his kingdom stronger. What if they wouldn't have fought at Magnesia? I think that the AS would have absorbed the lesser kingdoms in the area. And why fight a Garcia enemy when you can attack right away? From what I know about the romans proposals of peace before the war... giving back Syria (not all Syria like Appias says, he mentions Koile-Syria from a mistake I think) to Ptolemy IV and many other proposals wich would have never been accepted by a strong empire like Antiocho's. They wanted war. And I think that Antiochos was kinda forced into it. I'm not saying that he didn't wanted the war, that he wasn't confident enough, but after Magnesia he lost his fleet and he paid a very large sum of money plus territory, things that concurred to the downfall of Seleukia I think. The problem is kinda relative and complex... and this hangover kills me! In fact this two empires are my favorites. And I don't quite understand why you have to like only one of them. It's history, it already happened and they say it can't be changed.
I also like Carthage very much. Would I have wanted Carthage to win the Punnic Wars? No. I think the roman legacy to Europe is quite impressive. And mainly because they took from all others the things they left to us. And I am not sure that greeks or carties could have done a better job. Maybe they could have, maybe not.

[Sarcasm]

I like Sarcasm.

He says all the things I want to say, but don't dare to cause I would get kicked out, not being on the eb team.:clown:


Have some balloons.:balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2:

Has the EB ever had anyone kicked over a reaction to something that's so obviously wrong to everyone (I hope at least)?


He-he-he. Sarcasm showing where he got his name. He-he-he. :sweatdrop:


(Are you cracy!? If you keep pissing everyone off the whole worlds going to stack up on you.)


He-he-he, funny guy that Sarcasm. :sweatdrop:

So what he said is alright to you? Equating an ancient situation to modern sensibilities (and outright extremists ones at that) really makes me want to hurt baby huskies. If guys like that really do hate my guts, I figure I'm a sensible enough guy and definitely on the right side of the fence.

I call it like I see it, what you see is what you get; both in real life and here. Gets me respect from some and hate from others. Not changing anytime soon either. :coffeenews:

[Emperor Burakuku]

It's better to speak the truth and be hated than to tell people what they want to hear and be loved. But still, responding with hate to hate it's not ok by me. Not that I judge or anything.

[Sarcasm]

Wanna have a drum circle instead? :clown:

[kambiz]

Hey Sarcasm ,I don;t like the way you talk. It is not friendly at all:mean: I just said my opinion. I do believe that people through history better tolerate a ruler who is amongst them instead someone from outside ,No matter how harsh both are. so Imo My point is valid.

You really think why Selukids always tried to increase greek population and increasing greek colonies in the region? And usually the main core of their army was from Hellenic troops ,And were not regional? Selukids tried to reach themselves to hellenic territories in Greece and balkan ,to make a connection with their homeland and their occupied lands. They didn't feel they're at home. And they see especially Iranians as conquered people thus considered as subjected people not their countrymen ,didn't?

Sorry if my argument hurts your feeling Sarcasm ,But I'm saying the truth. And yes I am nationalists and am so proud of it ,As I think everyone should be for his nation and country:yes:

[Emperor Burakuku]

Wanna have a drum circle instead? :clown:

No ideea what that is. Not a native english speaker. Searching... By the way, I like your sig. :2thumbsup:

Edit: A drum circle is any group of people playing (usually) hand-drums and percussion in a circle. Other instruments and dance can also be incorporated into the drum circle. They are distinct from a drumming group or troupe in that the drum circle is an end in itself rather than preparation for a performance. They can range in size from a handful of players to circles with thousands of participants.

Sure. Why not? Just the two of us?

[abou]

Your comments, Kambiz, lead me to believe that you know practically nothing of the Seleukids, and that your nationalism blinds you. I wouldn't call on a kingdom that had a corps of elite Iranian cavalry directly attached to the king with the same vile you do. Nor would I when the kings themselves were of mixed blood - both Makedonian and Iranian. Nor would I when it appears that the Seleukids went out of their way to participate in local religious festivals and the construction of a number of buildings with strong Persian influence. That doesn't sound like treating the Iranians as conquered dogs to me.

Get your ass out of your nationalistic crap. We don't play that game here and I can't think of anyone on the EB team who would stand for it.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way - the Parthians may have been of Iranian stock, but they certainly were not natives of the area either. Why do they suddenly escape your ire?

[Emperor Burakuku]

Comme on people. Can't we get along? Seriously now Kambiz, I don't get it. Why do you hate them so much? I, as a romanian, don't hate the turks because they fought my people in the past. More that this, my specialty includes the History of the Ottoman Empire. Isn't it about understanding? Do you really think that the Parthians we're better than the Seleukids? Or the Sassanids better then the Bizantines? Why do people judge individuals by nationality or ethnicity? Don't get it. And why are they answered back the same way? Peace. :2thumbsup:

[The Persian Cataphract]

Alright guys, chill-pill time. Seriously.

The next man who wishes to dig further into the issue of Greeks versus Iranians, will have to deal with me. Lest one is a masochist, I will make it sure that no one will like it dealing with me :whip:

Back to Antiochus.

[Pharnakes]

Lock?

Please?

This thread started out as it should have, a discusion of Antiochos 3rd, and has disolved into nationalistic idiocy. We've had nationalism, next will be nazism, and then we'll have Hitler. Living proof of whatever his names law.

Lets all just stop and take pace back, yes?

[Emperor Burakuku]

I think he was cloned. Hitler that is. And now he's just a boy. Think about an iranian or greek Hitler. Now wouldn't that be strange? Or even a romanian Hitler. Damn, that would be strange.

[Pharnakes]

Hardly stranger than Hitler himself. Afterall his beloved mother was a Jew.

[Emperor Burakuku]

I wouldn't like this thread about - Antiochos III - to become one about Hitler. So, come on, no more suppositions. He was strange yes. So... that's all for the moment. I will try to... here: Why was Antiochia named after Antiochos and Seleukia after Seleukos? Why not the other way around?

You'll se Phar, I will bring this thread back to life. :idea2:

[Tellos Athenaios]

Lest one is a masochist, I will make it sure that no one will like it dealing with me :whip:

Ah...if only they knew what "slootwater" stands for, and what you would do with it to them... :grin:

[The Persian Cataphract]

I think he was cloned. Hitler that is. And now he's just a boy. Think about an iranian or greek Hitler. Now wouldn't that be strange? Or even a romanian Hitler. Damn, that would be strange.

Iranians and Greek damped the soils of their homelands for over a thousand years. No other rivals in the history of this world have fought against each one and another so intensively. Greeks had their triumphs. So did the Iranians. Both had their moments of humiliation. In that war, spanning more than a milennium, projected from the early days of the Medeans and the Greek-influenced Mermnads of Lydia, through the heyday of the Greek city-states against the Achaemenians, through Alexander and Darius of the Codomannus, through the dust of the Parthians and the successors of Seleucus and Diodotus, through the open fields of dead legions and slain cataphracts, and finally the last Persian-Byzantine wars, no victor emerged. Only the screams of men, women and children who only heard legends and myths of previous achievements. Greeks at this stage had the Alexandrian and Roman opulence as the dim light to pave their future, while Iranians longed for the days when the Achaemenians ruled the world. Only a few moments past the last drops of shed blood, was there a brief moment of reconciliation, and the most unlikely enemy helped to trigger this sudden moment of mutual dependency.

There may be Greek and Iranian nationalists today, true, but these nationalists live in two very different cultural spheres also. Greek nationalists live in a country today honed as the founder of democracy and western philosophy. Such men are looked down upon, as a reminder of fascism that cost Europe millions, upon millions of lives. In Iran, my esteemed gentlemen, the situation is different. I do not excuse the behaviour of Kambiz. I know him. He is a passionate and enthusiastic young man, far more curious than the bulk of his countrymen, and a lover of Europa Barbarorum. Most Iranians do not even know who the Pahlavân were. Those who do, shrug them away as Scythic barbarian invaders. Kambiz fails to understand a few very elementary things of historiography, true, he displays a shameless behaviour that may downrightly tarnish my reputation as an Iranian in this team. I will not make any excuses for him. He suffers from misconceptions of Seleucids that still plagues Iranology, and he suffers from preconceived notions about the Parthians. True. It's all very true.

But I'd rather have him nationalistic than the bulk of my countrymen who through their inaction support a regime who proactively seeks to accomplish what the invading muslims failed after the last documented destruction of literati. To Iranians, nationalism is merely patriotism, the other echelon to religious allegiance. That is what you have failed, miserably if I needed to add it, to comprehend. If Kambiz is undisciplined in his ways, so be it, but the man who begins to even insinuate that Kambiz by any means is a fascist, or god forbid if I say it, a Nazist, has clearly reached rock-bottom in the scale of failure.

Kambiz lives in a land that mourns foreigner mass-murderers and religious fanatics by a regular basis, all the while he bears witness to true forces of evil, who in the name of religion deems the heritage of "Iran, during her period of ignorance" unfit to exist. Indeed, during the very Islamic Revolution itself, the clergy prepared to bulldoze Persepolis; Not even Alexander would have done something so vile. Even the bard of the national epic, Ferdôwsî was able to forgive Eskandar. I too can forgive the drunkard's rage, as I can forgive the men of reputation who are able to feel regret; It is not in my place to judge. It is rude. What I can do is observe, and whatever happened has happened. We must set the distinction between acceptance and approval. History, after all, is the study of facts in a past reality. Kambiz lives in a country where he is forced to witness the decay of his homeland; He clearly finds solace in the times of greatness, and less so in times of humiliation. It does not excuse his behaviour. But attempting to play with the idea of a "Persian Hitler", is not only a childish notion, but a highly striking irony when Iran today already holds the title as a den of religious fascism. Do some of you think there are too many Iranian patriots in this world, let alone those who do not shrug their arms in ignorance when it comes to the Arsacids, let alone the Seleucids? I'd beg to differ. We need to applaud these human beings who realize the inanity of self-scourge for the sake of religion, and show admiration to Iranian history. This is nothing that is encouraged by the current regime.

Sarcasm and Abou are my friends and colleagues. We have argued in the past, but the discipline that we hold in acceptance and respect of different schools of thought brands the very beauty of history itself. Within Europa Barbarorum, people from all around the world collaborate in an attempt of bringing history as accessibly as possible to the computers of the common man. I bring what little I know about the Ancient Iranians. That is it. Kambiz is also my friend, and an enthusiastic one at that. I may not always have time for his questions at the times that he PMs me, but it always brings a smile to my face knowing that I give fuel to a fire thirsting for knowledge. He has his short-comings, sometimes misunderstandings erupt, things happen... But his curiosity should be envied by all of his countrymen. All of them. All students blunder. This isn't the first time Kambiz blunders through wrong or inadequate selection of words, but then again, in a country where the English language hardly is reared, I feel the need to step forward. Taking what he says at face value is about as good as constructing a straw-man. A man of proper intellect will see through it. One of my best friends in this team, Keravnos, a native of Greece, is a true paragon of dignity. He takes great pains in exploring his admiration for even the most obscure cultures. He carries today most of the credit in rearing the forgotten Greeks of India.

Show some respect even if others don't. If you want an Iranian Nazi, I'll only point at the puppet president of Iran. If you want a Greek Nazi, I'll point to the Chrysi Avyi organization.

To whomever with the ability, close this thread. It has no use anymore. By the gods of Jägermeister, I think even Tellos finds Heineken to be infinitely more pleasurable than reading through this thread full of tripe, and he loves that beverage as much as I admire the Ebola virus <_<