Another case of organized Islam putting its worst foot forward

[Goofball]

This is just spectacular. They are potentially going to give this nice old lady, a British teacher, 40 lashes and some prison time, because she perpetrated a horribly insulting crime against Islam. What is it you ask? She allowed her class of seven year olds to name the class teddy bear "Muhammed."

Off with her head...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071128.wsudan1128/BNStory/International/home

My favorite bit:


Although Khartoum officials played down the case and said it was an isolated incident, Sudan's top clerics said in a statement Wednesday that the full measure of the law should be applied against Ms. Gibbons, calling the incident part of a broader Western "plot" against Islam.
Northern Sudan's legal system is based on Islam's Sharia law, which harshly punishes blasphemy. Any depiction of the prophet is forbidden in Islam, for fear it would provoke idolatry. Caricatures of Muhammed in some European media last year sparked riots in several Muslim countries.
The Sudanese clerics said this was blasphemy and believed it was intentional.
"What has happened was not haphazard or carried out of ignorance, but rather a calculated action and another ring in the circles of plotting against Islam," the Sudanese Assembly of the Ulemas said the statement.
"It is part of the campaign of the so-called war against terrorism and the intense media campaign against Islam," they said.


Idiots.

[InsaneApache]

I've been following this story for the last few days. Well as they say "When in Rome....." etc, etc.....even if the Romans turn out to be vicious, sadistic, mongtards.

The poor, poor woman. :shame:

[Lemur]

Ahem. (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1759734&postcount=129)

[InsaneApache]

Ahem. (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1759734&postcount=129)

OK.

However, now that this poor women has been charged, I think it deserves a thread of it's own.

BTW, she didn't name the 'teddy', her class did, by a democratic vote. Something that she had to explain beforehand as her pupils had absolutely no clue about democracy. Mebbe that's (one of) the issues here.

Just a thought.

[Geoffrey S]

I hope she can expect more British support than the non-Muslim minority in Sudan...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

That is wrong. Utterly and completely wrong. My condolences to her.

By the way, was she a citizen of Sudan, or muslim even?

[InsaneApache]

She's a Scouser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouser).

[Adrian II]

Apparently the private school where she teaches is a Christian school, even though most pupils come from Muslim homes. I think that goes a long way toward explaining the commotion.

Idiots, nonetheless.

[IrishArmenian]

She's a Scouser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouser).
Oh, if she's a scouser then why the hell does she have a thread, let alone evoke compassion within us?
On a serious note, I think this is awful! Is not Muhammed a common name for some areas of the Islamic world?

[Lemur]

Is not Muhammed a common name for some areas of the Islamic world?
It's extremely common. One of the boys in her class was named Muhammed, and they named the bear after him. The prosecution is baseless, stupid, and utterly silly. I can't imagine a better way for Sudan to make itself ridiculous, or to tarnish the reputation of Islamic Law.

[Navaros]

Contrary to many claims in this thread, they are not "idiots" just because they take their religion seriously.


The teacher easily could have insisted on another, non-offensive name and avoid this whole issue. That she did not just goes to show that she was likely trying to inflame the Muslim world, or at least indifferent as to whether she would or not. Part of a good teacher's responsibility is to avoid doing irresponsible things like that.

[Lemur]

The teacher easily could have insisted on another, non-offensive name and avoid this whole issue. That she did not just goes to show that she was likely trying to inflame the Muslim world, or at least indifferent as to whether she would or not.
Nav, why not do a bit of research (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article515744.ece) before you post?


A pupil of the teacher leapt to her defence yesterday.

The seven-year-old said he suggested the name – after himself, not the Islamic prophet.

And he says he would be upset if jailed Gillian Gibbons never came back to teach at Unity High School in Sudan’s capital Khartoum.

The lad, who spells his name Mohammad, said: “The teacher asked what I wanted to call the teddy. I said Mohammad, after my name.”

He added that most of his class agreed with his choice and described Gillian, of Liverpool, as a “very nice” teacher who never mentioned religion in class.

His mum added: “I’m annoyed that this has escalated in this way. If it happened as he said, then there is no problem here – it was not intended.”

[Navaros]

Nav, why not do a bit of research (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article515744.ece) before you post?




That is just one side of the story, and may not be the true side.

There is also the other side which states:


The Sudanese clerics said this was blasphemy and believed it was intentional.

And in any case, if she did indeed do it inadvertently, then it speaks to her not having a proper level of world religion education to hold a teaching position, especially one where she is teaching Muslim students.

[HoreTore]

Oh, if she's a scouser then why the hell does she have a thread, let alone evoke compassion within us?

Exactly what I was thinking.

[Komutan]

Contrary to many claims in this thread, they are not "idiots" just because they take their religion seriously.


The teacher easily could have insisted on another, non-offensive name and avoid this whole issue. That she did not just goes to show that she was likely trying to inflame the Muslim world, or at least indifferent as to whether she would or not. Part of a good teacher's responsibility is to avoid doing irresponsible things like that.

Muhammed is a pretty common name. It would not have occurred to me, someone who lived his whole life in a muslim society, that this name is more inappropriate than any other for a teddy bear. So I don't see any reason to suspect that the teacher did it intentionally.

[HoreTore]

Muhammed is a pretty common name. It would not have occurred to me, someone who lived his whole life in a muslim society, that this name is more inappropriate than any other for a teddy bear. So I don't see any reason to suspect that the teacher did it intentionally.

Jesus is a pretty common name too, but you should still be careful of which things you name jesus. Especially if you live in a theocracy or similar.

[Geoffrey S]

Jesus is a pretty common name too, but you should still be careful of which things you name jesus. Especially if you live in a theocracy or similar.
So, why is it okay to give the name Mohammed to a person, and not to a teddy bear?

[HoreTore]

So, why is it okay to give the name Mohammed to a person, and not to a teddy bear?

Because a person is a human being, and thus worth quite a bit more than a teddy bear, perhaps?

[PanzerJaeger]

It's extremely common. One of the boys in her class was named Muhammed, and they named the bear after him. The prosecution is baseless, stupid, and utterly silly. I can't imagine a better way for Sudan to make itself ridiculous, or to tarnish the reputation of Islamic Law.


This is the reputation, and in fact the reality, of islamic "law".

Rule by decree, no rights, no fair trials, incredibly brutal punishments, confessions via torture, and no real concept of justice.

But hey, they came up with script over 1000 years ago, what a beautiful society... ~:wacko:

[HoreTore]

Rule by decree, no rights, no fair trials, incredibly brutal punishments, confessions via torture, and no real concept of justice.

That's the truth of every society who lacks democracy.

[Don Corleone]

Jesus is a pretty common name too, but you should still be careful of which things you name jesus. Especially if you live in a theocracy or similar.

Name one place in the world where you would be lashed 40 times for naming a Teddy Bear Jesus. The only fanatics I would worry about lashing me 40 times would be the ones in the Society for Separation of Church and State.

And Navaros, quit using your religious beliefs to troll. It doesn't become you, or the Christ you claim to follow.

[macsen rufus]

So, why is it okay to give the name Mohammed to a person, and not to a teddy bear?


I'm sure naming a child Mohammed is a way of honouring the Prophet, and I believe that in Islamic societies, the choice of a name is designed to impart certain qualities to the recipient. To be named Muhammed is to become like Muhammed.

Furthermore, Islam proscribes the making of images of creation (this extends to human beings generally, not just the Prophet) - according to my Muslim friends, their children are not allowed to have dolls, as these are an infringement of that ruling (of course, it doesn't mean they don't have dolls etc ~D). Which puts teddy bears in an unusual situation - are they "bears" or not? Obviously a teddy bear as portrayed is not a reproduction of a real bear, so can it be idolatrous?

However, all that said:


The Sudanese clerics said this was blasphemy and believed it was intentional.
"What has happened was not haphazard or carried out of ignorance, but rather a calculated action and another ring in the circles of plotting against Islam," the Sudanese Assembly of the Ulemas said the statement.
"It is part of the campaign of the so-called war against terrorism and the intense media campaign against Islam," they said.


... is complete garbage. Some people just look for excuses to be offended - it's vanity, pure and simple, and something probably very un-Quranic, too.

If we gave these ulemas the respect they deserve, they would truly learn what an insult is :bow:

[HoreTore]

Name one place in the world where you would be lashed 40 times for naming a Teddy Bear Jesus.

It doesn't exist, because fortunately the christian lunatics don't rule any countries(as opposed to islamic lunatics, who rule a few countries).

Though there have been more than a few idiot cases in the christian world too, like raped women jailed up for having an abortion...

[seireikhaan]

Bah. Dispicable story, really. Story is proof why countries need separation of church and state.(well, there are other examples too) It really doesn't do justice to the vast majority of muslims.

[HoreTore]

Bah. Dispicable story, really. Story is proof why countries need separation of church and state.(well, there are other examples too) It really doesn't do justice to the vast majority of muslims.

Well, a state church can work the other way too, it doesn't have to be the church meddling with state affairs, it can also be the state meddling with church affairs...

[macsen rufus]

Rule by decree, no rights, no fair trials, incredibly brutal punishments, confessions via torture, and no real concept of justice.

Sounds like Gitmo to me :clown:

... but seriously, PJ, can't you find a broader brush to paint the situation with? Or maybe you just know bugger all about the intricacies so will gloss over them like they don't exist? "Sharia law" is no more monolithic than "western law" - different jurisdictions have different codes and traditions, rulings are interpretations, it is different between the Sunni and Shia traditions, Wahhabists are different again, some points of law swing on disagreements over the precise meaning of obscure words in Quranic Arabic etc etc.

Now, I agree that currently some Islamic courts seem to be under the sway of a bunch of virulent dingbats, but not all. Some secular, Western societies have some pretty crazy judges too, but to brand the whole tradition with the excesses of the extremes is not helpful at all.

[HoreTore]

Some secular, Western societies have some pretty crazy judges too

I think Fragony can expand on that topic :laugh4:

[InsaneApache]

You mean like the guy from Niagara who locked up the entire courthouse?

[HoreTore]

You mean like the guy from Niagara who locked up the entire courthouse?

When did Nigeria become a western country? :inquisitive:

[Mikeus Caesar]

Truly absurd case, very stupid on behalf of the Sudanese government, for what reasons i'll explain in a second. Opened the letter page of The Times the day after the story broke, and there was a single letter that pretty much sums up the whole situation, from a muslim bloke in Glasgow and went something along these lines.

'This makes me embarassed to be a muslim and to be Sudanese.'

And then i read The Times article on it where they made a pretty good point - nowhere in the Koran does it say you shall not make idols of Mohammed (pbuh). Nowhere does it forbade it - it just frowns on it, but it does not say that adorable English teachers should get a flogging for allowing some little kid to name a teddy after himself.

[InsaneApache]

When did Nigeria Niagara become a western country? :inquisitive:

IIRC it's on the Canadian/USA border, there's a little waterfall there as well. :clown:

[HoreTore]

IIRC it's on the Canadian/USA border, there's a little waterfall there as well. :clown:

Dang! I curse my eyes!

[JR-]

Because a person is a human being, and thus worth quite a bit more than a teddy bear, perhaps?
there is no consensus on the use of Mohammed, some consider it idolatry whereas others do not.

[Pannonian]

Name one place in the world where you would be lashed 40 times for naming a Teddy Bear Jesus. The only fanatics I would worry about lashing me 40 times would be the ones in the Society for Separation of Church and State.

And Navaros, quit using your religious beliefs to troll. It doesn't become you, or the Christ you claim to follow.
Navaros is a Jew, not a Christian. He stopped following Jesus when it became clear to him that the latter's turn the other cheek philosophy was plain wrong and immoral, and he now follows the Old Testament, especially the blood and thunder parts, exclusively. Can't remember in which thread he explained this epiphany, but I'm sure some other Backroomers may remember it.

Thinking about it, I'm surprised Nav isn't criticising the Sudanese for their over-leniency.

[Ronin]

Navaros is a Jew, not a Christian. He stopped following Jesus when it became clear to him that the latter's turn the other cheek philosophy was plain wrong and immoral, and he now follows the Old Testament, especially the blood and thunder parts, exclusively. Can't remember in which thread he explained this epiphany, but I'm sure some other Backroomers may remember it.

Thinking about it, I'm surprised Nav isn't criticising the Sudanese for their over-leniency.


after all this time I still have a hard time deciding if Navaros is serious in the stuff he posts here....or if he is just sitting in front of his computer joking around and adopted this identity in this forum trying to get a rise out of all of us....

if the second case is true I must applaud his tenacity....I have never seen the mask slip....if the first one is the truth then well.....I better not say anything that will get me a warning point.

I´m entertained nevertheless.

[Randarkmaan]

I think the "commandment" is actually more that Mohammed is not holy, he is not be equated with God, the message is not his but God's, and that he was capable of sin (many of the biographers, Muslims, mention his sins).

To me it definately, and sadly, seems that many Muslims truly have become worthy of the old name for them, Mohammedans, in that they worship and revere Mohammed. Many (likely not including the "learned" Imams) probably don't even know that Jesus is included in there, and contrary to Mohammed, he is mentioned as having been without sin.

By the way...
(don't look if you don't want to...) Picture of Mohammed from the 15th century... notice the body... and the face...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Maome.jpg

I'm not really commenting on anything anyone here said, just saying what I think about this.

[HoreTore]

I think the "commandment" is actually more that Mohammed is not holy, he is not be equated with God, the message is not his but God's, and that he was capable of sin (many of the biographers, Muslims, mention his sins).

He certainly is holy, but not holy like a god. Priests/imams/prophets are almost always "holy men".

[Komutan]

Furthermore, Islam proscribes the making of images of creation (this extends to human beings generally, not just the Prophet) - according to my Muslim friends, their children are not allowed to have dolls, as these are an infringement of that ruling



Some fundamentalists may think like that, but it is not something which the majority of muslims, even most of the fundamentalist ones, follow.

[CrossLOPER]

I hope the woman manages to find a way out of this.

[Devastatin Dave]

I hope she does get lashed and jailed, serves her right for attempting to civilise these "people". Stupid do-gooder. When are people going to learn to leave these "people" alone and let them continue their "peace-loving" ways.:furious3:

Let her ba an example for all... DO NOTHING FOR THESE MUSLIM COUNTRIES.

[Slug For A Butt]

To be honest, I just see this as another example of the Islamic world alienating itself from every non Islamic country on the planet. It seems that we have monthly riots around the world because of an alleged insult to the "religion of peace", but nowhere in their psyche is it apparent that burning other countries flags and abusing foreign nationals freedoms is an affront to other societies.
I have no religious alliegance at all and am therefore unbiased as to "which is the religion for all", I just find it disgraceful that Shariah law finds it neccessary to threaten corporal punishment to a woman who has the nerve to allow the children in her care the opportunity to name a teddybear. Makes me wonder what would have happened if she had reported the children for wanting to name the bear Mohammed. Presumably they would have been given the lash instead of her, mind you they are under age so their mothers would probably have been stoned instead.

[drone]

15 days and deportation. How boring.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/11/29/sudan.bears/index.html

[InsaneApache]

15 days in a Sudan prison isn't going to be a barrell of laughs I'll bet.

At least she's been spared having her backbone exposed to daylight.

She's looks such a nice lady as well. :yes:

[Spino]

15 days and deportation. How boring.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/11/29/sudan.bears/index.html

Geez, deportation from the Sudan... isn't that the equivalent of winning a lottery over there? :wink: :beam: :thumbsup:

[Lemur]

She should have stuck with the Praise Allah Teddy Bear (http://www.osamasaeed.org/osama/2007/11/a-few-teddy-bea.html).


Meet Adam the Prayer Bear. This toy is owned by hundreds of Muslims up and down the country. He happens to share the name of a Prophet. If this is a crime, then there are a lot of Muslims guilty of it.

He's called a 'prayer bear' because he recites various lines when any of his limbs are pressed. As I was putting him away after taking his photo, I accidentally pressed down on one of his paws. He said "In the name of Allah, the most Merciful, the most Kind". Appropriate.

[JR-]

what a dangerously backward nation.

[Tribesman]

Let her ba an example for all... DO NOTHING FOR THESE MUSLIM COUNTRIES.

Let her be an example for all , this is what happens to your citizens when you try to welch on a arms deal with crazy regimes .

[InsaneApache]

I've decided. I'm out on the lash this weekend. :whip: :laugh4:

[JR-]

there are apparently crowds of people in sudan baying for the blood of that nice lady school teacher. they should consider that there may be a price for such backwards behaviour:

In the last three years, the British Government has given £326 million in aid to war torn Sudan, with a further £114 million earmarked in the next 12 months.

ooh, could we turn of the taps?

they opted out of the commonwealth so there is no obligation on that front...........

[Don Corleone]

Let her be an example for all , this is what happens to your citizens when you try to welch on a arms deal with crazy regimes .

Woah, woah, woah. Who said anything about welching. They were negotiating... i.e. nobody has promised anything yet, as far as I understand it. Or do you think these are acceptable negotiating tactics? :dizzy2:

What's more, while I agree with you on the cynicism towards the Sudanese government initiating this out of greed, not fervor, this (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,314111,00.html) leads me to believe that for their population, it's very real, and they may have let a genie out of a bottle. I'm not sure I'd lay even odds on that woman getting out of the country alive at this point.

I don't mean to be insulting to our muslim friends at large, but I don't think extremist rage and fervor is something to be whipped up as a bargaining ploy. it just might get away from you... :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :hmg: :tnt: I think the right answer is to try to keep them as calm as possible. Don't encourage them by giving in to their demands, but for God's sake (or Allah's), don't get them all whipped up over a nonsense issue, just to scare your business partner.

[Fragony]

This would have been funny if it wasn't so hiralious. What was thinking in the first place, Darwin Award if they get her.

They are going to love this artwork,

Warning: spoilered image may cause offense. Not safe for workplace viewing.

http://www.demorgen.be/static/FOTO/pe/8/8/7/large_115642.jpg

Made by Iranian dutchie, shows Mohammed and Ali as gays.

hehe

[Don Corleone]

Interestingly, there's nothing on the Council For American-Islamic Relations (http://www.cair.com) website about this. Zip. There's plenty about muslims need to demand their rights, and how they're misrepresented, and how they need to force Western society to be supportive of their views, including wearing the hijab during a judo match. But not one word about this case. So the CAIR (an organization with which I freely admit I have an axe to grind) is shrieking and yelling everytime somebody says boo about muslims or Islam, but they can't take a moment to say riots demanding the death of a woman who allowed her class to name a teddy bear Mohammed might be a bit excessive?

And they say they're not just a pack of advocacy shills....

Disclaimer: No offense intended towards Muslims in general (even members of said organization), my rancor is reserved for the official stances taken by the CAIR, who claim they always lead the way in calling for tolerance and calm discourse on these matters... baloney, they're here to instill Sharia in the USA.

[HoreTore]

Why should they, Don Corleone?

[KukriKhan]

riots demanding the death of a woman who allowed her class to name a teddy bear Mohammed

There've been riots? I thought I read about a heavy police presence.

[Don Corleone]

Why should they, Don Corleone?

They claim they stand for religious tolerance of all faiths, and peaceful resolutions to misunderstandings. Can you think of a better place for them to put their money where their mouth is? A simple statement saying this was clearly a misunderstanding from them would be all it would take to remove the word hypocrisy from my lips.

[Don Corleone]

There've been riots? I thought I read about a heavy police presence.

Pardon me, mass protests by mobs of angry people waving weapons, calling for her to be executed by the government, or other means if necessary. I guess 'riot' might be an excessive term. What's more, according to the BBC, the police didn't reign them in until they were two blocks away from the British embassy.

I did find it interesting that 3rd party observers viewed the absence of automatic weapons by the demonstrators to be proof that the demonstration (unlike earlier ones this week) was not staged by the government.

Apparently, when they show up wielding knives, axes and bats, they're acting on their own. If they're carrying AK's, then the government gave them to them. And by extension, I guess that means the more heavily armed the mob is, the less serious a threat they actually pose. :juggle2:

[Fragony]

Why should they

How about a little consistancy. Organisations like that are only interested in the fun parts and are completily blind for the not so fun parts. So they feel wearing a tent during a judo match is a good thing, but don't want to know about women being forced to wear it. It simply doesn't exist for them.

[HoreTore]

They claim they stand for religious tolerance of all faiths, and peaceful resolutions to misunderstandings. Can you think of a better place for them to put their money where their mouth is? A simple statement saying this was clearly a misunderstanding from them would be all it would take to remove the word hypocricy from my lips.

They have a large anti-terror section on their site, etc. I can't see why they should have to comment every little case, the big picture should be sufficient.

[Don Corleone]

They have a large anti-terror section on their site, etc. I can't see why they should have to comment every little case, the big picture should be sufficient.

Your vehement defense of the hypocrites is duly noted.

[Fragony]

They have a large anti-terror section on their site, etc. I can't see why they should have to comment every little case, the big picture should be sufficient.

What does terrorism has to do with it? Who is missing the big picture exactly? This is religious intollerance not terrorism, and a rather barbaric reaction to it.

[HoreTore]

Your vehement defense of the hypocrites is duly noted.

That's ok. But I still don't see why they should have to comment on every little thing. Just like I shouldn't have to condemn every time Chavez or other leftie leader screws up something, just because I'm a leftie. And just like I wouldn't force you to condemn it every time another priest gets a bit too close to kids. I know that you don't support it, so you shouldn't have to state the obvious.

[KukriKhan]

BBC story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7121025.stm)

OK, Don Corleone; apparently I'm about 12 hours behind on the 24-hour news cycle. Yesterday's news had stories of heavy police presence and calm streets during and after her trial. Things have changed.

[Don Corleone]

That's ok. But I still don't see why they should have to comment on every little thing. Just like I shouldn't have to condemn every time Chavez or other leftie leader screws up something, just because I'm a leftie. And just like I wouldn't force you to condemn it every time another priest gets a bit too close to kids. I know that you don't support it, so you shouldn't have to state the obvious.

The difference there is repeated disavowals in the past. I've seen you make public statements indicating a willingness to condemn improper acts by people whose cause you find favorable in the past. And as I've been told in private, sometimes its hard to tell which team I play for because I criticize my friends almost as much (some would say more) than my adverseries.

But these guys don't do that. The 'whole page dedicated to anti-terrorism' is mostly them patting themselves on the back, not the actual denunciations themselves. And when you read the actual fatwa, or the 'not-in-Islam's-name' petition, they're very clever with the wording: INNOCENT CIVILIANS. It's okay to blow up police, and it's okay to blow up people you think are guilty.

And as Fragony says, that all relates to terrorism. In this thread, we're talking about religious tolerance/intolerance. The CAIR claims to be an organization dedicated to furthering religious tolerance. They had the time to make a big stink about a misinterpreted comment by Romney (for the record, he never said he wouldn't have a muslim on his cabinet). They have time to post threads demanding the rights of Islamic girls to compete in Judo wearing a hibab. But this story, which is in the headlines of every major media outlet in the world right now, this they can't be expected to have an opinion on?

I think by not saying anything, they've said everything.

[HoreTore]

But this story, which is in the headlines of every major media outlet in the world right now

Huh, here it was only a small paragraph in the "things happening around the globe"-section of the paper...

If it's a big thing in the US, it would be wise of them to comment it.

[Don Corleone]

Huh, here it was only a small paragraph in the "things happening around the globe"-section of the paper...

If it's a big thing in the US, it would be wise of them to comment it.

It's a front page headline on the CNN, Foxnews, MSNBC, and other news websites. If it's not getting play in Norway, I suppose I see the root of our disagreement, but trust me, everyone over here has heard about this, regardless of where you get your news.

[HoreTore]

It's a front page headline on the CNN, Foxnews, MSNBC, and other news websites. If it's not getting play in Norway, I suppose I see the root of our disagreement, but trust me, everyone over here has heard about this, regardless of where you get your news.

We're currently flogging the filthy capitalists here now, no time to worry about flogging elsewhere, I suppose...

[Don Corleone]

I see. Going to whip somebody for naming a Teddy Bear Karl Marx, are you? :whip:

[Fragony]

It's a front page headline on the CNN, Foxnews, MSNBC, and other news websites. If it's not getting play in Norway, I suppose I see the root of our disagreement, but trust me, everyone over here has heard about this, regardless of where you get your news.

European 'quality' newspapers are rather selective, just like that organisation you just mentioned I guess. Need the internet for the news.

[HoreTore]

I see. Going to whip somebody for naming a Teddy Bear Karl Marx, are you? :whip:

Surely you can agree that there is no other worthy punishment for such a crime? :furious3:

@Fragony: Not even the neo-nazi's have picked this one up...

[ICantSpellDawg]

that blows

[Fragony]

@Fragony: Not even the neo-nazi's have picked this one up...

Neo-nazi's and islamic fundi's share a hobby, no surprise there. Nazi's and islamists have always been close.

[HoreTore]

Neo-nazi's and islamic fundi's share a hobby, no surprise there. Nazi's and islamists have always been close.

So that's why their site is full of anti-islamic stuff?

EDIT: And they're friends with parties like Vlaams Belang and BNP; now slap me silly if I'm wrong, but I always thought they were rather anti-muslim...

[Don Corleone]

Neo-nazi's and islamic fundi's share a hobby, no surprise there. Nazi's and islamists have always been close.

Yet one more example of Judaism bringing folks together ~:grouphug:

[Fragony]

So that's why their site is full of anti-islamic stuff?

They don't like eachother but they hate the jews a little bit more.

[HoreTore]

They don't like eachother but they hate the jews a little bit more.

From what I've read from them, they believe that the jews are paying and controlling the islamists...

[Fragony]

From what I've read from them, they believe that the jews are paying and controlling the islamists...

They think the jews are promoting multiculture because jews fare better in a multicultural society. Poor jews, the most overrated people ever.

[ICantSpellDawg]

They are pretty overrated. I remember reading a review in gamespot and they got 10 stars? 10 Stars? each of the Zelda games only got 9 max and Zelda's were never part of an international Zionist conspiracy. i think it has something to do with the fact that they own Hollywood.

[Lemur]

The Jews own Hollywood? Dude, that is so 20th century. These days it's all about the Scientologists and the gays. Next thing you know I'll hear you complaining about how Herbert Hoover is a bad president. Get with the times, man.

[Devastatin Dave]

They have a large anti-terror section on their site, etc. I can't see why they should have to comment every little case, the big picture should be sufficient.
Hey Horetore, just out of curiousity, do you think if Norway ever became majority Muslim, would they be tolerant of your beliefs and political affiliations? Just curious...

[HoreTore]

Hey Horetore, just out of curiousity, do you think if Norway ever became majority Muslim, would they be tolerant of your beliefs and political affiliations? Just curious...

Why shouldn't they? Most of them are lefties like me anyway.

[HoreTore]

The Jews own Hollywood? Dude, that is so 20th century. These days it's all about the Scientologists and the gays. Next thing you know I'll hear you complaining about how Herbert Hoover is a bad president. Get with the times, man.

Are you serious? Haven't you heard of the gay muslim scientologist-zionist brotherhood of freedom-hating who controls the world?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Are you serious? Haven't you heard of the gay muslim scientologist-zionist brotherhood of freedom-hating who controls the world?

I stay up at night from all the nightmares. Plus I want to catch up on my "Dianetics for Gay Jew Overlords" - by Hillary Clinton, Empress of the 7th circle of hell

[Tribesman]

Woah, woah, woah. Who said anything about welching.
I did :2thumbsup:
For them to still go through with the arms deal it would involve completely restructuring major corporations , removing peoples citizenship , changing the goods that were being sold ...or alternately changing Britains law that they were trying to ignore until the deal was exposed .

But anyway , now that they have identified the little woman who caused all this nonsense perhaps its just a matter of time before some journalist finds out which people she was really working for .

[Fragony]

Why shouldn't they? Most of them are lefties like me anyway.

In the totalitarian government that controls each and every aspect of your lifekinda way, yes. Lefties are strange, they have little qualms siding with everything that is the polar-opposite of their moral believes, makes you wonder if they aren't really anti-freedom, and thus, anti western.

[macsen rufus]

I'm still amazed these judges thought it was "all part of the international plot against Islam".

I can see it now, Dubya, a few CIA kooks, a spiffing gent from MI4 and three-quarters and a coupla crypto-zionist Norwegian nazis huddled in a smoke-filled room plotting their latest secret weapon... OMG it's a teddy bear!!!! Killer move guys, we'll have the Taliban licked in weeks if we keep up this kind of assault :laugh4:

Some guys really do need to get out more .....

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm still amazed these judges thought it was "all part of the international plot against Islam".

I can see it now, Dubya, a few CIA kooks, a spiffing gent from MI4 and three-quarters and a coupla crypto-zionist Norwegian nazis huddled in a smoke-filled room plotting their latest secret weapon... OMG it's a teddy bear!!!! Killer move guys, we'll have the Taliban licked in weeks if we keep up this kind of assault :laugh4:

Some guys really do need to get out more .....

The scenario you described is actually rather convincing, Bush would go for it.

Wouldn't he?

[rvg]

I'll go out on a limb here and say that the Sudanese authorities did this woman a favor by convicting her: token sentence + immediate deportation afterwards is the best they can to to protect her life from the local crazies. Chances are, had she been acquitted and released, some mad mullah would have whacked her anyway. So, overall, the Sudanese government chose the best course of action. While it is officially, "Oh, you good for nothing infidel, rot in jail for 2 weeks for insulting Islam!!!", in reality it is "We saved your life. You're welcome." And while the British official response is "Oh, what an outrage!!! Barbarians!!!", unofficially it is "Okay, everything is fine, just make sure she promptly gets on the plane."
Basically, I do not fault the Sudanese government in the least, the fault lies squarely with the people of Sudan who seem to be incapable of independent logical thought.

[Scurvy]

overall, the Sudanese government chose the best course of action.
Basically, I do not fault the Sudanese government in the least, the fault lies squarely with the people of Sudan who seem to be incapable of independent logical thought.

much agreed, it was the sentence i wanted, as not to convict her would be crazy politically (for the Sudanese govt.) but not anything too severe,

it's also important to remember that she did break the law, even if its a ridiculous law to have, so a sentence was perhaps justified anyway... if a Sudanese person came to the UK, and did something we might objected to, but they think of as normal, (eg. carry guns around etc.) we would presumably arrest them. -->

its a shame its become so politicized though...

:2thumbsup:

[Fragony]

its a shame its become so politicized though...

You mean because of a teddybear?

[ICantSpellDawg]

I'll go out on a limb here and say that the Sudanese authorities did this woman a favor by convicting her: token sentence + immediate deportation afterwards is the best they can to to protect her life from the local crazies. Chances are, had she been acquitted and released, some mad mullah would have whacked her anyway. So, overall, the Sudanese government chose the best course of action. While it is officially, "Oh, you good for nothing infidel, rot in jail for 2 weeks for insulting Islam!!!", in reality it is "We saved your life. You're welcome." And while the British official response is "Oh, what an outrage!!! Barbarians!!!", unofficially it is "Okay, everything is fine, just make sure she promptly gets on the plane."
Basically, I do not fault the Sudanese government in the least, the fault lies squarely with the people of Sudan who seem to be incapable of independent logical thought.


That is a legitimate point.

[Randarkmaan]

You mean because of a teddybear?

I still don't see what the fuss is about, actually, I don't think Muslims are prohibited from naming their teddy bears, and Mohammed is a common Muslim name so... Seems they simply want to have something to freak out about. Just like many politically active young people (and likely some older ones as well) here in NorwayM; I doubt that there are actually that many who care for the environment (in that they try to protect) or actually would do something about the war in Afghanistan which thye seem to hate, what they do love is freaking out about and go on demonstration or in the Sudanese case... riot.


Hey Horetore, just out of curiousity, do you think if Norway ever became majority Muslim, would they be tolerant of your beliefs and political affiliations? Just curious...

That really depends what kinds of persons they are or if they are some kind of fundamentalists or not, though I actually do doubt that Norway ever will have a Muslim majority, unless there is a new Caliphate superpower which conquers the world to convert everyone to Islam, something I also deem unlikely to happen.

[InsaneApache]

In other news....


A feminist author is to rewrite her autobiography after she was forced to flee from Muslim extremists who placed a bounty on her head.

Taslima Nasreen, 45, a former doctor, said today that she hoped that the move would appease fundamentalist groups and end a controversy that forced her to leave Calcutta last week.

Ms Nasreen had claimed that the religious references in Dwikhandito, which means Divided, are sourced from “universally accepted” books on Islamic history.

Today she relented under pressure and said that “controversial lines” relating to Islam from the autobiographical novel would be removed.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2978120.ece

Very nice.

[Tribesman]

it's also important to remember that she did break the law, even if its a ridiculous law to have
Did she ? I thought it was a pile of crap consisting of false trumped up charge that has no basis in law , from a source that turned out to be none of the sources they claimed it was , delivered by a judiciary acting on the orders of the lunatics in power .


its a shame its become so politicized though...
Since the whole thing from start to finish was politics then how could it be anything other than politicized ?


Basically, I do not fault the Sudanese government in the least, the fault lies squarely with the people of Sudan who seem to be incapable of independent logical thought.
Absolutely unbloodybelievable :dizzy2:

[Xiahou]

I think the protesters are acting predictably and deplorably. However, the blame still lies with the authorities for making a story of this to begin with. It was a completely trumped up nonsense charge and should never have become the major incident that it did. In no way was Sudan looking out for her interests.

[rvg]

Once that story hit the news, that lady had a big bullseye target on her head regardless of the verdict. Whether she is proven guilty or innocent in the Sudanese court wouldn't make a difference: if she stays, she dies. Notice that aside from some anonymous Sudanese blogs, not a single public voice has been raised in her support in the muslim world. Everyone keeps talking about the supposed majority of muslims are rational people just like us. Well, where are they? They are always silent and therefore invisible, irrelevant and for all practical purposes: nonexistent. So yes, I do blame the people, and not the government, the radicals for being themselves, and the so-called "moderates" whose existence (in any significant numbers) is highly questionable.
Religion is one force that can push the people to overthrow even the most authocratic government (like what happened in Iran in 1979), and that is why the governments of that region are afraid of any religious riots, and that is why they will always do their best to appease the most radical of the radical and convict the innocent to satisfy an angry mob, and *that* is why I blame the people.

[Tribesman]

Well in light of that last post I must humbly remove my "Absolutely unbloodybelievable " statement and replace it with " what absolute tripe , how the hell can anyone write such rubbish "
It does make me wonder if the poster even knows where Sudan is let alone anything about the country , the situation there or what form their government takes .
But hey to top it all ....
Notice that aside from some anonymous Sudanese blogs, not a single public voice has been raised in her support in the muslim world. .. apparently someone "follows" the story but doesn't watch any news or read any newspapers ..well apart from some anonymous blogs of course:dizzy2:


Now for the really shocking stuff... I find Xiahous post to be spot on .

[Slug For A Butt]

Ahh, barbaric. The word I was looking for, cheers Fragony.
God help us the day that these people outbreed us to control western governments. Freedom gone, democracy gone, invention and progression gone, religious tolerance gone, equality even within ones own faith gone.
I'm just glad I'm not a generation younger, really I am.

[AntiochusIII]

Now for the really shocking stuff... I find Xiahous post to be spot on .By the Gods! :end:


rvg: To phrase Tribesman's, err, rather abstrusely delivered point differently: Sudan is an autocratic government, or less politely a bunch of dictatorial lunatics. Surely you are aware that most humans have something called "survival instincts," and, well, speaking out in such an environment goes against all such instincts?

You said yourself that once the word is out, she's marked for death. Well, once somebody speaks up, that poor heroic soul would also be very quickly marked for death. And unlike the British lady in question, said glorious martyr will not have international support protecting him or her.

And unlike us stable Western countries, or relatively stable East Asian countries, Sudan is quite a messed up place. Khartoum isn't exactly in control of the whole piece of hellhole you know. There are many competing (to put it politely) factions, and they all vie for local support. Again, you said yourself that religion is a powerful tool to control the masses... Guess what? These guys will try to outdo each other in proving their "Piety!" And what better way is it than to raise murderous outrage against the dissidents, the infidels, and the not-quite-so-nutty.

Of course the silent will remain silent. Do I like it? Hell no. Can I blame them? Not from my armchair.

[Tribesman]

There are many competing (to put it politely) factions, and they all vie for local support.
One particular faction is important to this sorry tale , the powerful faction that are friends with Osama B and who helped the current nuts get into power ,they split slightly when the government had to hard over jurisdiction to the ICC in certain areas , they considered it a government surrender to the "western war against Islam" , this episode is an attempt to get the fundy nuts back behind the government by showing that they are still the law and can do what they like as well as being a big *middle-finger* to Britain due to their long escalating political and business disputes .
But whats hilarious about rvgs take on the issue (apart from not knowing about the criticism and outrage at the government and its actions in Sudan itself or throughout the Muslim world) is that he blames the people of Sudan and not the government when currently there are two major wars where the people of Sudan are fighting against the government and also the recently concluded one where the people of Sudan manged to win (sort of but it loks like it may start again) against the government .

[rvg]

...To phrase Tribesman's, err, rather abstrusely delivered point differently: Sudan is an autocratic government, or less politely a bunch of dictatorial lunatics. Surely you are aware that most humans have something called "survival instincts," and, well, speaking out in such an environment goes against all such instincts?

You said yourself that once the word is out, she's marked for death. Well, once somebody speaks up, that poor heroic soul would also be very quickly marked for death. And unlike the British lady in question, said glorious martyr will not have international support protecting him or her.

And unlike us stable Western countries, or relatively stable East Asian countries, Sudan is quite a messed up place. Khartoum isn't exactly in control of the whole piece of hellhole you know. There are many competing (to put it politely) factions, and they all vie for local support. Again, you said yourself that religion is a powerful tool to control the masses... Guess what? These guys will try to outdo each other in proving their "Piety!" And what better way is it than to raise murderous outrage against the dissidents, the infidels, and the not-quite-so-nutty.

Of course the silent will remain silent. Do I like it? Hell no. Can I blame them? Not from my armchair....

I do not buy that. People can stand up to oppression in Burma. They stand up to oppression in Southern Sudan. They stand up to oppression wherever and whenever there is a a large segment of society fed up with the status quo. The government faces two choices: make concessions or drown the dissent in blood. If there are plenty of dissenters the government generally chooses the former ruote, while if there are few dissenters the government simply gets rid of them. Furthermore, even in countries like Sudan there is a group of people untouchable by the government: clerics. And they are either silent or supportive of something extreme like killing that woman. So that, basically, gives me an impression that this "overreaction" that I see so much and read about so much (be it the teddy bear, or the cartoons, or the christian convert from afghanistan), is actually a normal, proper and correct reaction that one should expect from that part of the world. Be it the lawless Afghanistan, Sudan, the Iranian theocracy or even something relatively stable like Indonesia.
Christian life in that part of the world is not worth a plug nickel. Western life is worth more, since killing westerners pisses off a whole lot of important and powerful people. So, they get away with whatever they can. If they can't kill that woman, they will find a priest or a nun to kill instead. Or maybe burn down and loot some christian businesses, or whatever else. It has happened before and it will happen again. I just happen to look at this and see it for what it is: not the action of some radical fanatics, but rather a social NORM.

[Tribesman]

Ah that explains it all.

[HoreTore]

rvg, just how many times have the people of burma "stood up against oppression"...?

2 times in the last 20 years. And thousands were killed, arrested, tortured or all of the above. Ever wonder why they don't happen more frequently...?

[macsen rufus]

I wish I hadn't been driving when listening to the news this morning, I could have paid more attention, but there was an interview with a UN "Special rapporteur" who'd been dealing with Sudan, and it sort of changed my viewpoint a little. From what this chap was saying, this whole issue has the Sudanese government running all the way through it like Blackpool in a stick of rock (sorry if that's a parochial refererence ~D). So - trumped up charges, yes; politically motivated, yes; geo-political manoeuvring by a bunch of tyrants, yes. Are the Sudanese government a bunch of genocidal maniacs intent on derailing any attempts to end the conflict there? You might think that, I couldn't possibly comment :no:

[JR-]

if that can be proved to our Britains satisfaction (not the worlds: who's gives a toss what they think), then we should put an immediate stop on the hundreds of millions of Sterling we provide in Aid.

[Tribesman]

Last edited by KukriKhan : Today at 02:45.
Come off it Kukri , that phrase accurately sums up a statement like......
People can stand up to oppression in Burma. They stand up to oppression in Southern Sudan. They stand up to oppression wherever and whenever there is a a large segment of society fed up with the status quo. The government faces two choices: make concessions or drown the dissent in blood. If there are plenty of dissenters the government generally chooses the former ruote, while if there are few dissenters the government simply gets rid of them. ...it is completely detatched from reality .
If there are plenty of dissenters then governments like this drown it in blood , if there are a few dissenters it drowns it in blood but it doesn't make big headlines .

And this .....
Furthermore, even in countries like Sudan there is a group of people untouchable by the government: clerics. And they are either silent or supportive of something extreme like killing that woman. ...is absolute tripe that makes no sense at all .

[InsaneApache]

I get the impression that the Sudanese govt. is akin to a man holding a Tiger by it's tail.

[Tribesman]

I get the impression that the Sudanese govt. is akin to a man holding a Tiger by it's tail.
More like half a dozen tigers tied to each other by the tails .

[HoreTore]

if that can be proved to our Britains satisfaction (not the worlds: who's gives a toss what they think), then we should put an immediate stop on the hundreds of millions of Sterling we provide in Aid.

Pure genius. Let the poor and weak suffer for what the rich and powerful are doing. Excellent.

[PanzerJaeger]

and *that* is why I blame the people.

Correct. Don't let tribesy, who seems to think none of these governments in the muslim world operate with any public support, intimidate you with his personal attacks and awesome use of grammar.

In related news...

Sudan mobs want British teacher shot for teddy bear name (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2007/12/01/2007-12-01_sudan_mobs_want_british_teacher_shot_for-1.html)


The British teacher jailed in Sudan for letting students name a teddy bear Muhammed was whisked to a secret location Friday after armed mobs demanded her execution.

Protesters brandishing clubs and knives streamed out of mosques and rallied outside the presidential palace in the capital Khartoum.

"No tolerance: Execution," they shouted. "Kill her, kill her by firing squad."

The teacher, Gillian Gibbons, who is serving a 15-day sentence for insulting Islam, was moved from the women's prison near Khartoum for her safety.

Amid the disturbing demonstrations, a delegation from Britain left for Khartoum Friday in an effort to secure her early release.

Her son John Gibbons told The Associated Press he spoke to his mother by telephone and she is worried mostly that her case will inflame tension.

"One of the things my mum said today was that 'I don't want any resentment toward Muslim people,'" he said. "She's holding up quite well."

Gibbons, 54, left her job in Liverpool and went to travel and teach in Africa after her marriage collapsed last Christmas.

In her position at Unity High School, she borrowed a technique used in British classrooms: introducing a teddy bear and asking the children to write about it.

When her 7-year-old pupils decided to name the bear Muhammed, a school staffer complained - and Gibbons was arrested Sunday.

Convicted at trial of insulting the religion, she escaped the punishment of 40 lashes but will be deported when she's done serving her time.

The verdict and penalty have been condemned by Muslim groups in London and Amnesty International - but they weren't harsh enough for Sudanese hard-liners who marched on Unity High School and the British Embassy.

A Muslim cleric at Khartoum's main Martyrs Mosque denounced Gibbons during a sermon, accusing her of intentionally insulting Islam.

"This is an arrogant woman who came to our country, cashing her salary in dollars, teaching our children hatred of our Prophet Muhammed," Abdul-Jalil Nazeer al-Karour told worshipers.

Observers said the protests did not appear to be sanctioned by the government, but British authorities are furious Gibbons was even prosecuted.

"I think this is an absurdly disproportionate response to what is at best a minor cultural faux pas," said Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams.



Yep, no support whatsoever.

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2007/11/30/sudan372.jpg

Look at this trash heap of humanity. What a pathetic group of people. Why don't they go back to their tired little huts, work their miserable jobs, live out their irrelevant lives..... oh and praise allah of course.

[JR-]

Pure genius. Let the poor and weak suffer for what the rich and powerful are doing. Excellent.
quite frankly, there is a limited amount of aid we can give, therefore we must make a judgement about those who are most deserving of this aid.

in the world of geo-politics that judgment will be weighed on more than just relative levels of starvation.

[Tribesman]

Observers said the protests did not appear to be sanctioned by the government:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
I wonder what would happen to a few thousand people in a city of 2 million if they were protesting without approval from the regime in Khartoum .


Don't let tribesy, who seems to think none of these governments in the muslim world operate with any public support
Wow Jim Henson really created a masterpiece there , such wonderful cognitive abilities , so now Panzer what sort of stuffing did the creator use for the head ?
Oh sorry , obviously such a difficult question would be little beyond you , here take an easy one .
What do the words none and any mean ?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Wow Jim Henson really created a masterpiece there , such wonderful cognitive abilities , so now Panzer what sort of stuffing did the creator use for the head ?
Oh sorry , obviously such a difficult question would be little beyond you , here take an easy one .

Tsk.

Less beastliness, please.

:beadyeyes2:

[Tribesman]

quite frankly, there is a limited amount of aid we can give, therefore we must make a judgement about those who are most deserving of this aid.

Most of Britains aid money to Sudan is under the emergency measures category so is going exclusively to those areas that are anti-Khartoum.
Another reason why the regime is pissed at Britain , it views this money as aiding the rebels .

[PanzerJaeger]

Wow Jim Henson really created a masterpiece there , such wonderful cognitive abilities , so now Panzer what sort of stuffing did the creator use for the head ?
Oh sorry , obviously such a difficult question would be little beyond you , here take an easy one .
What do the words none and any mean ?

Look at you! You avoided the subject with such grace! There's wonderful capitalization, and look at those periods and even some commas! Now if we can only get you to stop putting spaces between everything. Im so proud of you, you're really making an effort and it shows! :2thumbsup:

While it is rather obvious that there is clear support for harsh sharia law throughout the muslim world, your denials of such are much easier to sift through when you write like an adult, as opposed to an 8 year old. :book:

I feel like a parent at graduation! :shakehands:

[JR-]

Most of Britains aid money to Sudan is under the emergency measures category so is going exclusively to those areas that are anti-Khartoum.
Another reason why the regime is pissed at Britain , it views this money as aiding the rebels .
ah well, sadly that leaves little leverage to combat backwardness.

[Tribesman]

ah well, sadly that leaves little leverage to combat backwardness.
Well not really there is about 2% that goes to education as opposed to the 62% for the emergency program .
The leverage Britian has is under the proposed trade embargo , hit the rulers in the pocket , it is this leverage (plus the proposed deployment) that led to the regime orchestrating this fiasco in the first place , its their form of leverage .


Look at you! You avoided the subject with such grace!
panzer , when you write something that actually makes some sort of sense and has some relevance you may get a response that addressess that subject , but when you write a pile of tripe it will be dealt with as a pile of tripe .
Simple isn't it .

Look an example of tripe

While it is rather obvious that there is clear support for harsh sharia law throughout the muslim world:dizzy2:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Considering the American organization CAIR refuses to condemn this, I wouldn't be surprised by widespread support for sharia in the muslim world.

A good editorial from IBD:

A Religion's Reputation At Stake

By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, November 30, 2007 4:20 PM PT

Islamofascism: Just when you thought Islam's skin couldn't get any thinner, angry Muslims from Khartoum to London want to execute a British teacher over a blasphemous teddy bear.

Our Muslim community is not calling for her head, but neither is any major Muslim leader rushing to her defense. Such indifference only feeds negative stereotypes and suspicions.

Is it any wonder almost half of Americans believe Islam is more likely than other religions to encourage violence against nonbelievers?
A Sudanese demonstrator carries a sword as he attends a protest in Khartoum on Friday denouncing a verdict handed down to a British school teacher accused of insulting Islam.

A Sudanese demonstrator carries a sword as he attends a protest in Khartoum on Friday denouncing a verdict handed down to a British school teacher accused of insulting Islam.

Sudan jailed the British teacher for 15 days for allowing her students to name a teddy bear Muhammed. But that's not enough for Muslim mobs.

Thousands of Sudanese brandishing machetes and clubs demanded the woman's execution. "Kill her, kill her," one large group chanted as they piled out of a mosque.

British Muslims also want Gillian Gibbons punished more severely, according to the BBC. She avoided the more serious punishment of 40 lashes only after the British embassy pleaded for mercy.

This comes just weeks after a Saudi court sentenced a rape victim to 200 lashes plus six months in jail.

Washington, in typical understatement concerning such Islamic outrages, called the bear jihad an "overreaction." But it seems Muslims always overreact to perceived slights, whether it's rioting over cartoons of Muhammed, beauty pageants or mishandled copies of the Quran.

Is violence integral to Islam? It's a valid question. When the pope raised it, Muslims proved him wrong by threatening to cut off his head. Message: Don't call us intolerant or we'll kill you.

If this sounds "Islamophobic," a favorite retort of the Muslim-rights group CAIR, straighten us out. We looked for a condemnation of the Sudanese troglodytes on its Web site and came up short.

We did, however, find "Action Alerts" calling on Muslims to boycott radio host Michael Savage for intolerance. Mitt Romney, Rudy Giuliani and the Washington Times were also singled out for attack.

Meanwhile, CAIR is hosting a panel discussion at the National Press Club on "Islamophobia and the Political Cartoon." Apparently CAIR, like other Muslim groups, condones violent reactions to free speech.

CAIR encourages Muslims in America to improve the coverage of Islam in the media. It says they should break the stereotype of Muslims as terrorists, and that of Islam as "archaic, barbaric, irrational" and a "religion of violence."

Well, what are you waiting for? Condemn the Islamic court's punishment of an innocent teacher. Certainly CAIR doesn't agree that naming a toy animal after the Muslim prophet is a crime just because it could be considered by the most extremist hard-liner to be an insult. Or does it?

The vast majority of Americans would change their negative view of Islam if Muslims would strongly condemn such extremism. But for some reason, they won't do it.

Until they do, they can't complain about Islamophobia.

CR

[Tribesman]

Considering the American organization CAIR refuses to condemn this
Really ?


. We looked for a condemnation of the Sudanese troglodytes on its Web site and came up short.

They didn't look very far then , did they miss the first article on the first page ?


In the Quran, Islam’s revealed text, God states: “When (the righteous) hear vain talk, they withdraw from it saying: ‘Our deeds are for us and yours for you; peace be on to you. We do not desire the way of the ignorant’. . .O Prophet (Muhammad), you cannot give guidance to whom you wish, it is God Who gives guidance to whom He pleases, and He is quite aware of those who are guided.” (28:55-56)

The Quran also says: “Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching, and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knows best who have strayed from His Path and who receive guidance.” (16:125)

Another verse tells the prophet to “show forgiveness, speak for justice and avoid the ignorant.” (7:199)

These are the examples that Muslims should follow as they express concern at the publication of insulting cartoons or at misperceived actions of a well-meaning teacher.





Apparently CAIR, like other Muslim groups, condones violent reactions to free speech.

Hmmmmm ....
These are the examples that Muslims should follow
Sooooo....A good editorial from IBD:
...bollox:yes:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Here's CAIR's statement. Do tell where they condemn the "Sudanese troglodytes", sharia law, or even this judicial action punishing the woman. They call it an 'unfortunate incident'.

http://www.cair.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?mid1=777&&ArticleID=23869&&name=n&&currPage=1

During last year’s protests over publication of the Danish cartoons designed to insult the Prophet Muhammad, I wrote a commentary called “What Would Muhammad Do?”

Given the ongoing controversy over the jailing of British teacher Gillian Gibbons in the Sudan for “insulting Islam,” perhaps it is time to remind us all how the Prophet himself reacted to insults, both real and perceived.

Even if Ms. Gibbons had the intent to cause insult, which does not seem to be the case, Islamic traditions include a number of instances in which the Prophet had the opportunity to retaliate against those who abused him, but refrained from doing so.

...[Examples of Mohammad not killing people who 'abused' him]

These are the examples that Muslims should follow as they express concern at the publication of insulting cartoons or at misperceived actions of a well-meaning teacher.

his most recent episode can be used as a learning opportunity for people of all faiths who wish to promote mutual understanding. It can also be viewed as a “teaching moment” for Muslims who want to emulate the Prophet through the example of their good character and dignified behavior.

As the Quran states: “It may well be that God will bring about love (and friendship) between you and those with whom you are now at odds.” (60:7)

This week’s unfortunate incident in the Sudan points to the need for an increased level of dialogue between ordinary people in the Muslim world and the West.

The complaint brought against Gillian Gibbons was an inappropriate use of Sudan’s legal system to deal with what was in essence a disagreement between parents and a teacher. Ms. Gibbons should never have been charged. She should be released immediately.

CR

[Tribesman]

Since it has been deemed that the post was an infringement of forum rules then the best way to sum up this statement......
Here's CAIR's statement. Do tell where they condemn the "Sudanese troglodytes", sharia law, or even this judicial action punishing the woman. They call it an 'unfortunate incident'.
....is :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: ah:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: errrr....:thumbsdown:

[Scurvy]

Here's CAIR's statement. Do tell where they condemn the "Sudanese troglodytes", sharia law, or even this judicial action punishing the woman. They call it an 'unfortunate incident'.



Given the ongoing controversy over the jailing of British teacher Gillian Gibbons in the Sudan for “insulting Islam,” perhaps it is time to remind us all how the Prophet himself reacted to insults, both real and perceived.

Even if Ms. Gibbons had the intent to cause insult, which does not seem to be the case, Islamic traditions include a number of instances in which the Prophet had the opportunity to retaliate against those who abused him, but refrained from doing so.
_

his most recent episode can be used as a learning opportunity for people of all faiths who wish to promote mutual understanding. It can also be viewed as a “teaching moment” for Muslims who want to emulate the Prophet through the example of their good character and dignified behavior.


explaining that Muslims shouldn't overreact to perceived insults, as the Sudanese are doing, and follow prophets example etc etc.



The complaint brought against Gillian Gibbons was an inappropriate use of Sudan’s legal system to deal with what was in essence a disagreement between parents and a teacher. Ms. Gibbons should never have been charged. She should be released immediately.

pretty clear really...

:2thumbsup:

[PanzerJaeger]

panzer , when you write something that actually makes some sort of sense and has some relevance you may get a response that addressess that subject , but when you write a pile of tripe it will be dealt with as a pile of tripe .
Simple isn't it .


While it is rather obvious that there is clear support for harsh sharia law throughout the muslim world

Look an example of tripe :dizzy2:


Wow, I must be on a tighter leash that you tribesy. :inquisitive:

In any event, Im sure you denied there was widespread support for radical islam when they danced in the streets after 9/11, just as you denied it when Time magazine insulted the great religion, just as you denied it when they got highly offended over something so horrible as cartoons, just as you deny it now when droves head to the streets over a teddy bear. It seems the - almost weekly - stories , whether its lashing rape victims or stoning gay boys to death, do not cause you any personal reflection. Your loss.

Of course common sense and polling (http://counterterrorismblog.org/2007/11/pakistan_and_islamism.php) shows your opinion to be complete bollox (~;)), but don't let that affect your multicultist world view.

[Tribesman]

Of course common sense and polling shows your opinion to be complete bollox
Well bugger me sideways and call me Sandra , hey Panzer if you want that poll to make any sense then perhaps you can answer the rather relevant point that Andres raised ...What is Sharia law ?
Can you answer that , OK maybe Jim was a bit strapped for cash and had to use some old copies of Der Sturmer for the stuffing , but try and apply some sort of semblance of the thing that people know as thought .
Then maybe come back with something that is not total tripe:yes:

On the otherhand if you could supply a copius amount of onions then perhaps your tripe wouldn't be so distasteful :2thumbsup:




pretty clear really...

Yes pretty clear(but don't tell rabbit) , much clearer than Britains foriegn office , but of course Britains foriegn office is just playing politics with a political situation..because ...errrrrr.....that is all that this is .

[Crazed Rabbit]

explaining that Muslims shouldn't overreact to perceived insults, as the Sudanese are doing, and follow prophets example etc etc.



pretty clear really...

:2thumbsup:

Again, where do they condemn it? The harshest word they use is "inappropriate".

Yes, the belated statement is better than nothing, but it was only after news of this was widespread and people started asking why groups like CAIR hadn't said anything. FYI, CAIR has made no statement that I can find on their website (http://www.cair.com/PressCenter/PressReleases.aspx) condemning or even mentioning the Saudi rape victim who was given 200 lashes.

CR

[Tribesman]

Again, where do they condemn it? The harshest word they use is "inappropriate".

Hey Rabbit what is the harshest word in Britains foriegn office statement regarding this .
Shock horror Britain supports extremist nutters ..well obviously:dizzy2:


Face it rabbit you posted an editorial that was crap , and to try to keep defending that editorial really makes your position appear clearly like the crap that it is.
A slightly different angle would make the core of all you arguements make sense ...but until that time they shall remain as pure unadulterated bollox .
Such are the problems of dealing with complexities while using the ill fitting application of broad brushes .

Arthur foxache its that simple can you not grasp it ?

[PanzerJaeger]

Well bugger me sideways and call me Sandra , hey Panzer if you want that poll to make any sense then perhaps you can answer the rather relevant point that Andres raised ...What is Sharia law ?


Yes, what does sharia law mean to these people? Well, using my example from above, I would point you toward the polls that show vast support for both the Taliban and Al Queda. If that doesn't work for you, maybe the polls that use language like "strict application of islamic law".

[HoreTore]

Bah. Religious people all want the laws of their own religion to apply. And as most of the world is conservative, that means fire and brimstone laws.

Which is why we need to remove religion :yes:

[Husar]

Bah. Religious people all want the laws of their own religion to apply. And as most of the world is conservative, that means fire and brimstone laws.

Which is why we need to remove religion :yes:
And while we're at it let's remove atheism as well because of those conservative atheists who support the death sentence. :dizzy2:
Atheists never want any of their rules or opinions to apply I guess, they'd never call for the removal of contradicting thoughts like religion or so....wait... :inquisitive:

[Tribesman]

If that doesn't work for you, maybe the polls that use language like "strict application of islamic law".

Oh well does indeed seem pointless in the case of this particular poster , but for the benefit of other posters , can anyone see the fault with Panzers post ?
If not can you tell me what Sharia law is ?
If you can then can you follow up and tell me what strict application of that law is ?

Please help since he really wants to make a point about some meaningless poll that has no parameters , and he must have a point or he wouldn't be so persistant (and one couldn't dare suggest that it may indeed be the case as that could be considered as quite against forum rules and may be considered as a personal attack rather than an attack on the seemingly brainless content of the post ).

But hey lets be fair
would point you toward the polls that show vast support for both the Taliban and Al Queda. hmmmm ....those polls that show support for an independant judiciary , a free press , free elections , a settlement of territorial disputes and an improvement in the economy .
Would those be the policies of Al-Qaida then ?
Hmmmmmm...well territorial disputes could be , but show me any poll that doesn't have support for settlement of territorial disputes eh

[PanzerJaeger]

Please help since he really wants to make a point about some meaningless poll that has no parameters , and he must have a point or he wouldn't be so persistant (and one couldn't dare suggest that it may indeed be the case as that could be considered as quite against forum rules and may be considered as a personal attack rather than an attack on the seemingly brainless content of the post ).


Ahh, so the poll doesn't agree with you so now it is meaningless? The questions and methodology seem fairly clear to me.




But hey lets be fair hmmmm ....those polls that show support for an independant judiciary , a free press , free elections , a settlement of territorial disputes and an improvement in the economy .
Would those be the policies of Al-Qaida then ?
Hmmmmmm...well territorial disputes could be , but show me any poll that doesn't have support for settlement of territorial disputes eh

And that has to do with the enforcement of strict sharia law how? An independent judiciary would be unfettered by Musharaf's(sp) semi-secular government in dispensing strict sharia law and free elections would allow for "true" muslims to take power. Democracy doesn't equal a healthy society.

Lets see, in a nation that vastly supports both the strict enforcement of sharia law and the ideology of the taliban/OBL, what conclusions can be drawn about their interpretation of sharia law?

[Blodrast]

Bah. Religious people all want the laws of their own religion to apply. And as most of the world is conservative, that means fire and brimstone laws.

Which is why we need to remove religion :yes:

Not all of them, mate, not all of them. Some are perfectly happy with that "live and let live" thing, you know.
(want some more flava with your lava ? :devil:)

[Tribesman]

Ahh, so the poll doesn't agree with you so now it is meaningless? The questions and methodology seem fairly clear to me.

Do they indeed , is that why you still cannot tell me what Sharia law is ?
Its not really amazing that you are able to see clearly yet don't even know what it is you think you can see .


Lets see, in a nation that vastly supports both the strict enforcement of sharia law and the ideology of the taliban/OBL:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: Oh I get it , its clear to you because you cannot read .

[Crazed Rabbit]

I remain unimpressed by your old debate 'tactic' of simply calling everything you don't agree with crap, tribesy.

Here's the end of the editorial:

The vast majority of Americans would change their negative view of Islam if Muslims would strongly condemn such extremism. But for some reason, they won't do it.

Until they do, they can't complain about Islamophobia.

CAIR hasn't condemned ****.

CR

[drone]

So, after all that, the Sudanese president pardons her. Pretty anti-climatic. Did a backroom deal get made?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/03/AR2007120300465.html

[ICantSpellDawg]

Do they indeed , is that why you still cannot tell me what Sharia law is ?
Its not really amazing that you are able to see clearly yet don't even know what it is you think you can see .

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: Oh I get it , its clear to you because you cannot read .


What CR and PY are saying is that we need to hear large Muslim bodies saying that same thing. "This is not what Sharia Law Means" dot dot dot. We don't need to say it, they do. Otherwise we can just read a wiki. There needs to be a vocal opposition from the inside.

[Tribesman]

What CR and PY are saying is that we need to hear large Muslim bodies saying that same thing.
No Rabbit is saying rubbish that isn't supported by fact , and Panzer is posting polls but then saying that they say something they don't say .



"This is not what Sharia Law Means" dot dot dot. We don't need to say it, they do.
Isn't that what CAIR did in the statement rabbit thought hadn't been made , isn't it what the Muslim council of Britain said , isn't it what Jordan said ....


I remain unimpressed by your old debate 'tactic' of simply calling everything you don't agree with crap, tribesy.

Here's the end of the editorial:

you mean the editorial that was wrong ?

OK lets look at the end of it again eh ....The vast majority of Americans would change their negative view of Islam if Muslims would strongly condemn such extremism. But for some reason, they won't do it.

Until they do, they can't complain about Islamophobia.
Well lets ignore that they claimed that an organisation hadn't condemned it when they had , and that other organisations have condemned it but clearly IBD doesn't want to actually editorialise about facts and prefers fiction , so that leaves the last line .
Too bloody right they can complain about Islamaphobia just as anyone can complain about any bigotted phobias .

[Crazed Rabbit]

So, it is apparent tribesy insists that CAIR is condemning Sudan's action, which he seems to think invalidates the IBD editorial.

Since tribesy is not likely to change his view, the position of others on the validness of the IBD editorial will depend on whether they think CAIR 'strongly condemned' the incident in Sudan:

This week’s unfortunate incident in the Sudan points to the need for an increased level of dialogue between ordinary people in the Muslim world and the West.

The complaint brought against Gillian Gibbons was an inappropriate use of Sudan’s legal system to deal with what was in essence a disagreement between parents and a teacher.

If that's strong condemnation to you, then you are free to think IBD's editorial is not good.

CR

[Tribesman]

So, it is apparent tribesy insists that CAIR is condemning Sudan's action, which he seems to think invalidates the IBD editorial.

Well as someone who isn't batting on a losing wicket did say
pretty clear really...
in case you missed it
Live with it Rabbit , now I know you can't get it and you think that though the CAIRS language , while stronger than Britains is weaker than Jordans it can never be sufficient unless it contains the words "Sudanese Troglodytes" . Well I hate to break it to ya , but that language is only to be found in dodgy editorials written by muppets .

[Fragony]

Well as someone who isn't batting on a losing wicket did say in case you missed it
Live with it Rabbit , now I know you can't get it and you think that though the CAIRS language , while stronger than Britains is weaker than Jordans it can never be sufficient unless it contains the words "Sudanese Troglodytes" . Well I hate to break it to ya , but that language is only to be found in dodgy editorials written by muppets .

This has to be clever somewhere but me too stupid being :shame:

[Husar]

If that's strong condemnation to you, then you are free to think IBD's editorial is not good.

CR
It's not strong but rather obvious that they don't agree with it.

[Leet Eriksson]

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3940765&page=1

Some condemnations by muslims.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/opinion/2007/December/opinion_December11.xml&section=opinion&col=

^ Arab news paper

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2007/12/fanatics_destro.php

^another arab news paper.

Gibbons was released thanks to an envoy of muslims who were sent by britain, i think that was the wisest course of action.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Live with it Rabbit , now I know you can't get it and you think that though the CAIRS language , while stronger than Britains is weaker than Jordans it can never be sufficient unless it contains the words "Sudanese Troglodytes" . Well I hate to break it to ya , but that language is only to be found in dodgy editorials written by muppets .

Lol. This is what your argument has become! Perhaps that is the source of your troubles - presuming to know the thoughts of others when forced to ponder their thoughts but limited by what you can think of.

Had CAIR said 'we condemn this' and mean it, it'd be enough. But they won't condemn Hamas or Hezbollah, so I wouldn't hold out hope.


It's not strong but rather obvious that they don't agree with it.

It's only obvious that they are trying to play lip service to moderation. I may not agree with something, but that's a long way from condemnation. They are an organization that wants islamic law in the US.

CR

[Tribesman]

Lol. This is what your argument has become!
Errr....Rabbit your "point" was nonsense based on a rubbish article , it doesn't take much of an arguement to floor it :dizzy2:


Had CAIR said 'we condemn this' and mean it, it'd be enough. But they won't condemn Hamas or Hezbollah, so I wouldn't hold out hope.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Are they applying the Negroponte principle :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[caravel]

Interesting how an "envoy of muslims", in this case "muslim peers" can be deployed to get one British woman out of a 15 day jail sentence in Sudan. Whereas nothing similar is done with regard to Darfur - or indeed those held at Guantanamo Bay? It's easy to see where priorities lie.

[Slug For A Butt]

Actually. these "Muslim peers" were not sent by the Government. Ahmed and Warsi went in a personal capacity.
Saved the Government some blushes though as they were unable to get anything done with diplomatic pressure.
And the difference between this and Darfur is that this concerned the safety of a Brit. The British Governments first concern has to be security of Brits surely? Darfur is a typical African, tribal situation that the Sudanese Government would not thank us for getting involved in I think.
Look at the difference between this and Sierra Leone where the British military aid was welcomed by the local Government. In that case Britain did her duty. Sudan is a different kettle of fish.