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View Full Version : Proposed Respawn Fix



Perec_Dojo
09-14-2002, 01:55
As there have been many outcries about the way respawning factions are implemented, I brainstormed some ideas on how to change it. From my perspective, I like this part of the game, but I find the way it happens a little unrealistic. When reading the following, keep in mind that I do not know how much of this is practicable from a programming standpoint, how much could possibly be modded, etc. so those of you in a position to know the answers to that stuff, please speak up. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Instead of the current system:

1. A respawning faction acts like a Jihad that attempts to take the original home province of the faction that respawns. It starts with a crack core of good troops (not too many, like a crusade) and a huge mass of peasants. It then begins to move toward it's target, sweeping up low loyalty troops that oppose it. So, sending in a low loyalty general to crush the rebellion can backfire. Also, a respawn automatically lowers the loyalty of surrounding generals, causing perhaps some of them to join the rebellion immediately. If a rebellion manages to turn the loyalty of the entire garrison of a province, and the governor is present, then they take the province immediately without the one turn "rebels are massing" delay! Essentially, respawning will be like a cross between a Jihad and a civil war, only you can't choose to switch sides (of course, a regular civil war may also erupt because of the lowering of loyalties in the region, so watch out!).

2. For a few turns prior to the respawn, the faction gets a number of spies for free proportional to it's former glory at its height (this will have to be balanced, but essentially, larger factions that are destroyed will have more intrigue power in absentia than smaller factions would). This is to simulate the seeds of rebellion. Now, the player, if he has a good spy network, can know that something is afoot if one of the respawning faction's spies talks. Then he can attempt to crush the rebellion before it starts. If not, then the rebellion has a better chance to succeed.

3. When a faction has been eliminated, your spies, if any, have a very small chance (modified by the usual factors) to find one of the underaged heirs each turn thereafter, which increases as the years go on. If found an heir can be executed or locked up. If executed, well, no more heir, but any other heirs that survive to respawn get more troops and loyalty (martyr factor). If locked up, no martyr factor, but if a rebellion by another heir is successful (lasts more than a turn) locked up heirs are freed and become generals with troops of their own (if they are old enough). If all heirs are captured/executed before they come of age, then you've put down that faction for good, but the player will never know precisely how many heirs are left in a faction.

Anyone have anything to add, subtract, are these ideas good/bad, etc.? I think that something like this system could make the mid to end game very enjoyable.

My next post will contain ideas (collated from around the org, since there are alot of good ideas floating around already, and from my own little brain) on how to improve the seige system.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Perec_Dojo
09-14-2002, 04:33
Bump?

Warmaker
09-14-2002, 10:17
I'm not a programmer but the idea sounds better than the tripe that's currently used. It gives a defeated, eradicated faction more and better troops than it ever had at the height of a sprawling empire.

Perec_Dojo
09-14-2002, 13:55
Bumpy?

candidgamera
09-14-2002, 20:33
PD:

Like the respawning too, makes the game interesting. Know what you mean by the massive troops coming back with rebellion. Have had to put down 2 rebellions in Rome of nothing but knights - kind of like Jason and the Argonauts - skeletons from the ground.

Like the general thrust of what you are suggesting. Couple of wrinkles to add:

*Limit the rebellions troops to what can be built in a rebelling province or source of rebellion troops with maybe 1-2 ringleader good units.

*Let the rebellion have the possibility to get help when it happens from other factions that have provinces adjacent to the rebellion
(whole issue of more advanced handling of allied army use comes up here) - would have two components - ones that are faction directed and spontaneous general ones - just goes over to help for personal reasons.

*Let the rebellion have the possibility of a mercenary component.

*would let the rebellion have a possibility to occur in that home province as well and then rebellion is radial - rebels come in from the outside toward the home province.

Like the crusade concept though.

Like the wandering heirs and spies idea too.

Am prepared to live for now with what we have - still getting my head around what the game is now - in so many ways its just brilliant.



------------------
Soldier of Fortune

O Fortune, most contrary, Of changing never chary, Now small, now great, Appears your state; Just like the moon you vary.

The life your servants suffer Makes wits grow sharper, tougher, Through games of chance Which much enhance Both easy times and rougher.

Lo, penury or power May greet us any hour: Your wheel revolves And all dissolves Like ice beneath a shower.

O Lady Luck, alluring But faithless in securing The wealth we prize, From me likewise You hide, your face obscuring.

I've bet my shirt and lost, My hopes of bliss are crossed; And, lose or gain, I still remain Hard up - but hang the cost!

My pounding pulses crave One smile for me, your slave . . . Friends, keep with me And weep with me: She favors not the brave.

(From Carmina Burana: Tavern and Open Road)

Cubiashi
09-14-2002, 20:37
I like it, it makes alot of sense.


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Cubiashi

Perec_Dojo
09-18-2002, 00:17
Bump?

Vanya
09-18-2002, 00:36
GAH!

Nice idea. Just 2 questions though...

1. If a faction does NOT exist, how can it have spies or agents on the field?

2. If a rebellion pops up in a province, why would it have to MOVE to the home province? Wouldn't it already be there? Then again, what defines a HOME province? By name (ie, hardcoded, like Castille for Spain)? By most developed province?

GAH!

And of course, this bumps it too... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

GAH!

Vanya
09-18-2002, 00:40
GAH!

It just occurred to me...

If the king dies and has no heirs of age, the faction continues to exist, although it loses all its provinces and armies. It gets special agents for children heirs to move around and it can keep its spies and assassins. So, it has NO income. And as such, it can keep its current coffers intact.

Which means, the heir-child can use his money to bribe enemy armies if he wants. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

When the eldest gets of age, he 'rebells' and gets his follower army.

The point is, the game has not ended for the defeated faction until ALL his underage heirs are dead!

Sure, you have a bunch of turns where you can't do anything... or maybe you 'teleport' to the year your heir comes of age, but still get to watch the end-of-year events in between, just for many years. Flying emmissaries and princesses gallore.

This way, you too can watch the game evolution after your last king dies, and still have a chance with a rebellion of your own!

GAH!

Perec_Dojo
09-18-2002, 00:54
Vanya,

1. I was thinking of how, after Napoleon was defeated and exiled, his spies and sympathizers were still there, running all over France and Europe causing trouble. The idea is that destroying a faction's military without getting rid of all of it's leadership leaves it with the ability to cause intrigues in its former territory, and the level of this intrigue should a) be proportional to their former level of development and b) spike sharply in the few years prior to a faction's respawn.

2. Yeah, I think each faction should have a hardcoded "ancestral homeland". Since a respawn can happen in any province formerly held by the faction, I figure they will just move toward their homeland. This is a) so we can implement it like a Jihad, and b) so there is a definite goal for the AI to accomplish. There should be a revolutionary period during which the AI gets bonusses and advantages, after which, if they succeed, the become an ordinary faction again. If they fail to recapture their homeland before the "revolution" ends, then they are penalized.

Anyway, these are just ideas, but it's the sort of thing that I'd like to see in an expansion/sequal/mod. Folks should let me know what they think, because I believe their's room for a MUCH more involved and interesting diplomacy game then we have currently. The wonderful dev's who made our beloved game DO read and take note of our suggestions, even when they can't personally respond to every idea.

I believe that by continuing to post clear, well thought out and reasonable alternatives to aspects of the game that we have problems with, we will eventually get those things. CA is one of the only developers who really "get's it". They have been rewarded for their responsiveness to the community and will continue to be.

Thanks for the comments, Vanya.

Perec_Dojo
09-18-2002, 01:49
Great idea, Vanya. There's a great post in the forums around here somewhere about how Medieval Europe was very much more political than what we have in MTW. He explains why the 100 years war lasted so long, because of poor economy, nobles squabbling all the time, king can't raise enough money. I thought that it really hit the nail on the head of what kind of game we would like to move toward. OTOH, we have few enough battles already in MTW, and how are the devs to show off their great combat engine if nobody can make war on each other?

Having the faction respawn for the player faction is brilliant. I think that this aspect of the game, properly implemented, makes the late game very interesting, as you are required to constantly track down and dispose of heirs and such, or face rebellions and respawns. And it is a balancing act, since you have to balance that with your own expansion.

TheWay
09-18-2002, 08:50
BUMP.

Take a long hard look at this developers. Nobody likes a lance up the rear, and an unavoidable, hard-wired one at that.

Chromebender
09-18-2002, 09:19
Actually I find that the current system gives respawning factions loads and loads of really bad troops (except for the Pope who always comes back with a real army). But I agree it isn't very realistic and needs to be changed.