Destroying siege equipment

[foop]

I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm missing something when it comes to sieges. When I start wheeling rams and towers towards the enemy walls, it feels like they only get five yards before bursting into flames and collapsing. When the enemy assaults me, they almost always seem to get to the walls.

Ignoring complicating issues like ballista and cannon towers, is there some reason for this? Am I doing something wrong? I'm lining the walls with archers (retinue longbowmen in my latest fiasco) and making sure that towers are active by having units nearby. It doesn't seem to help.

[auto]

Glad to know I am not the only one this happens to. :sweatdrop: I look forward to seeing an answer to your question too :help:

[FactionHeir]

When playing on higher difficulties, the AI's towers start shooting faster, thus increasing their cumulative chance of setting your equipment on fire and generally increasing their tower's kill rate.

If you don't like that, play on a lower difficulty or get more equipment (or long range artillery).

The accuracy of the projectiles is the same for the AI and you as far as I know. This is controlled by the file descr_projectile.txt.
Normal arrow accuracy and bombard shot accuracy applies to arrow and cannon towers respectively.
Ballista towers have their own separate accuracy rating.

[Alpedar]

So AI does recieve in battle bonus? I thought dificulty affects only its behavoir in battle.

[InsaneApache]

As a side note:

I see that you can destroy seige equipment, is this feature there to stop it being used again by the enemy from another stack? If so why? Surely the 'reinforcements' would need to have ballistas/catapults/cannons etc. in the stack to be able to do this, rather negating the advantage.

Always bothered me that one. Not a lot, you understand, just a bit. :smash:

[FactionHeir]

So AI does recieve in battle bonus? I thought dificulty affects only its behavoir in battle.

Yes, it receives a bonus in this regard and a morale bonus as well as a bonus to ammo size on higher difficulties, but not a stat bonus.



I see that you can destroy seige equipment, is this feature there to stop it being used again by the enemy from another stack? If so why? Surely the 'reinforcements' would need to have ballistas/catapults/cannons etc. in the stack to be able to do this, rather negating the advantage.

I take it you mean artillery rather than siege equipment? Artillery crews have the ammo stored on their bodies, not on the artillery piece, so if their own piece is destroyed, they could use their mates'.
As for siege equipment, the other stacks can use it, but the AI very very rarely ever does, except in multi layer sieges. Also, it takes much too long to destroy unless you have artillery.

[TheLastPrivate]

Should always use the siege towers to draw fire first..and to keep the enemh troops dispersed as well.

[ReiseReise]

I don't know for sure, but from my experience every fire arrow has a certain percentage chance of starting a ram/tower on fire, sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't, even if you reload and play the same battle. I say this because I have seen enemy towers burst into flames after 2-3 volleys and sometimes you can put 20 volleys into them with no effect, so there definitely is a random element involved. i don't use towers myself very much, especially in early game when you don't have DFKs yet:laugh4:. I usually build 2 rams and a ladder (I don't use the ladder, but you need 3 engines so the general doesn't get Questions Technology trait) and send a sacrificial ram first, with the 'real' ram close behind, but not so close that it gets hit by errant shots aimed at the first.

[Alpedar]

In one battle, i sent cavalry aginst enemy catapults&trbeuchets (mercenary cavalry, so their survival was not priority) before coming close with rest of army (which was parked in corner of map on hill).

I managed to get around enemy army to one catapult crew. Enemy fired fire arrowss and later i noticed one of their catapults is on fire.

[ReiseReise]

I remember setting fire to a catapult in RTW, I don't know about M2. A better bet though is "anti-artillery artillery" It is expensive (as much upkeep as a knight), so perhaps it is not very useful, but if you have one city that keeps getting besieged..... One catapult missile will destroy just about any siege engine the enemy brings up, the problem is getting them to actually hit it :shame:

[phonicsmonkey]

For the perfect artillery roast.

Play as Byzantines in Kingdoms: Crusades

Besiege one of those Turkish cities with ten Trebuchets inside.

Capture the gateway and hang around there for a while until the enemy has started the slowmotion Trebuchet charge down the main street towards your men.

In the meantime, flank with Greek Firethrowers and sneak up behind the queue of Trebuchets

Burn them!

Even better, try to get the rest of the enemy to rout back down the main street, straight through the mass of burning Trebs

Ouch!

[foop]

Thanks for all the useful feedback. I'm still puzzled by this.

I just tried to repel an Aztec assault from the stone walls of a large city with ballista towers. I had five units of yeoman archers on the walls. I play on M/M (I know, but I have a young son and it's nice to have some battles in my life that I can actually win). I managed to get the enemy ram to 14% before it hit the gates. I tried this several times to try and work out what I was doing wrong. The only way I could get things to work was to rush out a sacrificial unit to pin their ram.

One obvious thing is that the archers are falling foul of the battlement trajectory problem and firing in huge arcs. Apart from that, I can't work out what I'm doing wrong.

[FactionHeir]

You are not doing anything wrong. Its just the problem with your towers shooting slow and not hitting the ram. Or hitting another unit and getting stopped, as tower ballista projectiles are not body piercing.

Destroying equipment with normal tower ballista projectiles is nigh on impossible anyway. You need to hope that the flaming ones ignite it. Shooting at their ram with your archers tends to be a waste of time as well. Better shoot at the units carrying the ram with normal arrows and hope that they lose enough to stop the ram in its tracks.

As aztecs in general have poor morale and weak stats, one or two infantry stationed at the gateway should take care of any incoming hordes, and your archers should be able to take out any natives that arrive via ladders or towers.

[Darius]

Well other than getting massed fire arrows to fire on siege equipment I don't know how to increase chances of destroying siege equipment. However if you want your equipment to reach the enemy fortifications it's always nice to have a few sacrificial lambs.

Economically it's best to use something cheap, possibly peasants or if you can afford it, something with a nice big shield and decent armor. Naturally you'll want them to be in loose formation and stretched really thin, so as to make it as hard to hit them as possible.

Personally I would have killed for the chance to have an "Orderly withdrawl" button so that when I end up ordering the frontline units to pull back they wouldn't just about face and walk/run to where they're going. Simply walking backwards slowly as a unit with their shields FACING the enemy would have been so much more intelligent.

[WhiskeyGhost]

Well other than getting massed fire arrows to fire on siege equipment I don't know how to increase chances of destroying siege equipment. However if you want your equipment to reach the enemy fortifications it's always nice to have a few sacrificial lambs.

Economically it's best to use something cheap, possibly peasants or if you can afford it, something with a nice big shield and decent armor. Naturally you'll want them to be in loose formation and stretched really thin, so as to make it as hard to hit them as possible.

Personally I would have killed for the chance to have an "Orderly withdrawl" button so that when I end up ordering the frontline units to pull back they wouldn't just about face and walk/run to where they're going. Simply walking backwards slowly as a unit with their shields FACING the enemy would have been so much more intelligent.

I'd personally go for having Guard mode/Formation button(stay in formation). If it did this as well, it would be awesome. You could just hit Formation, and when you click behind your troops, they walk backwards so they can block arrows being fired at them as they withdraw.

[TheLastPrivate]

if you have time it is possible to destroy siege weapons with infantry. It may take a while too and the collapsing siege weapon will kill some of your units but sometimes u can defend this way when enemy reinforcements are approaching. Peasants are best for this job.

[FactionHeir]

Takes forever and exhausts the unit too.
Doesn't work for ladders.

[Ramses II CP]

You can force your units to maintain facing while marching, i.e. orderly withdrawal. I've forgotten the command, and they can't run IIRC, but it is possible. Check the manual?

As far as burning rams, just kill the guys pushing it.

:egypt:

[FactionHeir]

Err are we talking about the same game Ramses? :tongue2:

[_Tristan_]

Err are we talking about the same game Ramses? :tongue2:

Was about to ask the same question...:inquisitive:

[Ramses II CP]

Evidently not! I would've sworn it was in the manual or tutorial or something, but seemed so useless that I never bothered with it. I'm guessing I was wrong.:laugh4:

Not the first time, not the last. Sorry. :shrug:

Err, so, about that siege equipment. The AI doesn't protect it, so just send your cavalry out to smash the guys pushing it. Half the time the AI won't pick it up again either.

[DVX BELLORVM]

Takes forever and exhausts the unit too.
Doesn't work for ladders.
Were you talking about infantry destroying the ladders? It can be done.

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

[FactionHeir]

Infantry can take ladders off the walls, but they cannot actually destroy them as they are indestructible.

[Vladimir]

Infantry can take ladders off the walls, but they cannot actually destroy them as they are indestructible.

Infantry can destroy ALL siege equipment in less the mods I use have changed something. Watch out for bits of ladder falling on your head though.

[FactionHeir]

Note ladders can be taken off the walls and this may result in some casualties to either side. But they can be picked up again afterwards still.
If you hit ladders on the floor, I tried with 2 dismounted feudal knights for 30 minutes real game time and the ladder was at 2% after a few minutes and stayed this way and could still be used.

[WhiskeyGhost]

Note ladders can be taken off the walls and this may result in some casualties to either side. But they can be picked up again afterwards still.
If you hit ladders on the floor, I tried with 2 dismounted feudal knights for 30 minutes real game time and the ladder was at 2% after a few minutes and stayed this way and could still be used.

They can be destroyed, but its sheer luck whether the attacking unit can clip it properly when attacking. I've had a unit of spearmen take a ladder down after about 3 minutes in game, but it was just 1 ladder, out of 4! It's easier just to tell them to grab em, and either move them away from the wall or inside or something

[TheLastPrivate]

Takes forever and exhausts the unit too.
Doesn't work for ladders.

You can destroy ladders with peasants. I just did it - you just have to give it some time.

OMG! For the first time FH didn't correct me right in the kisser! :laugh4:

[Philbert]

I remember a recent siege by the Mongols. They sent out their ladders and tower to the walls, but I left those alone because I had Dismounted Norman knights to slaughter the Mongol infantry up on the walls. Instead I focused my firepower all on their ram, and did burn it before it hit my gate.

I immediately was sorry, because now the Mongol cavalry including their 10 star general simply stayed out of bowshot, and waited until my archers had picked off the last of the Mongol infantry.
My spearmen were ready to receive the Mongol cavalry with open arms and chat with them underneath the gates, while my archers rained death upon them from the walls, except now they never bothered to visit and that general got away home free.

So if you have good infantry it is not always good to destroy the ram, is my point.

[Vladimir]

If you have a catapult guarding the gate, the last thing you want to destroy is the ram.

[FactionHeir]

They can be destroyed, but its sheer luck whether the attacking unit can clip it properly when attacking. I've had a unit of spearmen take a ladder down after about 3 minutes in game, but it was just 1 ladder, out of 4! It's easier just to tell them to grab em, and either move them away from the wall or inside or something

I'll try it again when I get back then. Last I tried was in 1.1 times anyway.

[DVX BELLORVM]

It's easy to knock the ladders down from the walls (unfortunately you cannot do it from the top of the walls), but they are not destroyed (I thought they were). You can try to destroy them once the ladders are on the floor, but it seems it takes ages.

You can pick up the enemy ladders, but can't get them into the city As soon as you order your soldiers to move behind the walls with the ladders, they drop it. A bug?

BTW, I'm playing 1.3

[Alpedar]

Would be fun to steal enemy siege equipement (But being able to do so would probubly mean you can win anyway).

[FactionHeir]

You can pick up the enemy ladders, but can't get them into the city As soon as you order your soldiers to move behind the walls with the ladders, they drop it. A bug?

BTW, I'm playing 1.3

Yep, that's what happens in city sieges. In multilayer sieges, it is possible to carry them all the way in though :yes:

[Vladimir]

Never take ladders off of your walls. You *want* them to use ladders.

Siege towers are the most deadly as they allow the greatest amount of troops to reach your walls. If you have a catapult defending the gate the best thing is to trap them in a kill zone after the breach the gate.

[DVX BELLORVM]

Never take ladders off of your walls. You *want* them to use ladders.

Siege towers are the most deadly as they allow the greatest amount of troops to reach your walls. If you have a catapult defending the gate the best thing is to trap them in a kill zone after the breach the gate.
Well, I consider taking the ladders off of the walls to be a somewhat academic issue, since as someone already mentioned, if you are strong enough to go out and take the ladders, you are certainly strong enough to defeat the enemy without dirty tricks ~D

Although stealing someone's ladders in multiplayer can make your day ~D