Where are the Scottish schiltrons (pikemen phalanx)?

[Crimson Castle]

Hi developers,

I was a little disappointed to not see a Scottish schiltron (special pikemen) unit on offer.

I realize you can't include every single unit. But where you do the patch or mod, can you pretty please include a Scottish schiltron unit (schilton) in it?

Have it so that you have to build a castle and spear workshop to train a 100 Scottish pikemen unit. They should be completely impregnable when faced with a calvary charge but they move very very slowly and are vulnerable to attacks on their flanks and missile fire (due to their mass formation)

Its all within the same timeframe too. For example, Robert the Bruce used them with great effect at Bannockburn in 1314.

AYE!!!

[Yoko Kono]

its unlikely they will do TWO special units for just one province
and besides spearmen do the job well enough against cavalry

[Jagger]

I would have liked to see the formation available. The all-around defense at the cost of inability to move.

I don't know how common the formation was? Did others use the formation besides the Scots? I would imagine so but really haven't read about it.

[dclare4]

BTW is it possible to make a single spear/pike type unit 'form square'?

Gilbert de Clare

[SKD_Navy]

well,since they werent used by more then the scotts they likely wont be in the game...or patch.. maybe in the add on they will be tho

------------------
Proud Leader Of the SKD Clan
Visit Us Here (http://www.skdcorps.cjb.net)

[Jagger]

Actually I wonder if others did use a similiar formation. I seem to vaguely recall Swiss Pikeman in extremis forming all around defense.

I will have to do some research. Does anyone else know?

[Stu35]

Quote its unlikely they will do TWO special units for just one province[/QUOTE]

*coughtheswissgotthreeandtheirishgot2*


I think it takes the piss that the scots are so easy to put down and keep down in the game... I also think it takes the piss the sicilians get their own faction and the scots dont (i mean what the fuck did the sicilians ever fucking do?)

However, this is how the game is, and we have to live with it, or at least try and get our voices louder than those whinging about how easy the game is but they cant complete it because of all the rebellions - and even when you tell them how to stop rebellions they just keep whinging.


Anyway what was my point? ... oh yeah, i updated my web site, first time in quite a while, and my hits has gone down from about 30 a day to about ... umm... 150 in 8 days is ... umm... not as many as it should be.

http://www.geocities.com/wolflord_uk/stu35



------------------
MY MTW WEB SITE (http://www.angelfire.com/games4/mtw)

Alba Gu Bragh

[Soapyfrog]

Hey... the Sicilians own all of Southern Italy, the Balkan states and all of the former Byzantine Empire in my game as the French... Don't mess with the Sicilians!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[cihset]

Don't do the mistake and mix M:TW with history, it isn't supposed to match...

[Crimson Castle]

History doesn't matter in MTW? In that case, I expect to see a Martian or Germaine Greer lesbo faction in MTW2? Maybe they could include Panzer tanks or B2 bombers too http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

History does matter to MTW! The Scots should be able to have their own faction.

[deejayvee]

The Sicilians are Normans aren't they? They were quite a power at that time.

[Grifman]

Quote Originally posted by Stu35:
[B] *coughtheswissgotthreeandtheirishgot2*


I think it takes the piss that the scots are so easy to put down and keep down in the game... I also think it takes the piss the sicilians get their own faction and the scots dont (i mean what the fuck did the sicilians ever fucking do?)[/QUOTE]

Read your history and find out - and drop the stupid profanity. In historical terms, the Sicilians were much more important in the Middle Ages than the Scots. The Scots only plague the English every so often. Big deal - does anyone else in Europe even care?

The "Sicilians" represents what is really the powerful Norman Kingdom of Sicily. This was a real power at the time, dominating the middle of the Med and southern Italy, even at one point expanding into North Africa and taking Tunisia. They had extensive wars/feuds with the Popes and HRE, invaded the Byzants several times, threatening Constantinople itself. The Duke/King of Sicily was in likelihood one of the richest rulers in Europe due to the prosperity of his holdings.

As one source put it, "The Kingdom of Sicily was one of the most powerful kingdoms in Europe during the Crusades."

Grifman

[ltj]

Quote Originally posted by Alita:
History doesn't matter in MTW? In that case, I expect to see a Martian or Germaine Greer lesbo faction in MTW2? Maybe they could include Panzer tanks or B2 bombers too http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

History does matter to MTW! The Scots should be able to have their own faction.[/QUOTE]

that's not what he said. he stated it isn't supposed "to match". its a game first, history lesson never.

[MajorPain]

he maybe have seen braveheart to much. And thats why he want them as a faction.

[Dragon]

Good point.

MAybe if there was a movie with Mel Gibsonn as the King of Sicily some would complain that the Kingdom of Sicily does "rule" and they should be a bigger factor in the game ... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[cihset]

I was actually being sarcastic at CA's part, how they decided to interpret history in M:TW.

[slimey]

Someone's read The Bruce Trilogy right? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Well if you haven't and you're interested in Scottish history, the real scottish history, I recommend it. Author is Nigel Tranter I believe.

And to the point in hand, yes the scottish schiltrons were used to great effect versus the English heavy cavalry, which could hardly touch them. But the english countered them using longbowmen, as clustered up like that they were easy targets. They would operate very like the pikemen, except maybe could deploy into a 360 degrees formation basically meaning they are untouchable by cavalry. But it would be a cool bit of extra history, and make it *slightly* harder to steamroll the Scots with Royal knights.

I guess you could improvise and use 4 units of pikemen to do roughly the same thing, but it wouldn't be so cool because they wouldn't be SCOTTISH!

[Soapyfrog]

There SHOULD be a "square" formation for infantry units.

It would be the opposite of wedge formation, providing a penalty to attack and a bonus to defence (as well as being unflankable)

Downside would be that it loses cohesion and is very vulnerable when it moves.

Maybe only available to trained troops?

[Vanya]

If it weren't for the Sicilians, we wouldn't have the Connolli. Surely, you can appreciate this gift they made to civilization, right?

"Leave the gun, take the connolli."

GAH!

[Kraxis]

Quote Originally posted by Soapyfrog:
There SHOULD be a "square" formation for infantry units.

It would be the opposite of wedge formation, providing a penalty to attack and a bonus to defence (as well as being unflankable)
[/QUOTE]

Well the counter-Wedge is already in the game, it is called Hold Formation. It gives an attackpenalty of 2 and a defencebonus of 2.

Not being flankable would make flank attacks quite useless, as everybody would just adopt that formation when an enemy threatened the flank. And flank attacks is possibly the most important part of the tactics in the game.

One could mod the Scots to have a couple of Pikemen in the beginning, that would make them quite powerful.

As for the Scots not being a faction has nothing to do with the power of Scotland in this time. It is simply stupid to place two factions on top of each other with one of them with no possible way out besides invading the other. As well as the Scots would only have one province (don't give that talk they could just add another province, look at the size of Khazar, Poland, Hungary, Novgorod ect ect).

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[maroule]

no, c'mon guy show a bit more understanding to alita, he wants scot units, let's give him some.

However, as French I DEMAND the addition of a few typically french units :
- camembert throwers : short range, weapon cause fear
- french pouting actress : performs as spy, geisha and princess
- baguette infantry : use baguette as pikes, useless when it rains (the bread gets soggy)
- arrogant emissary : same as emissary but his natural arrogance means he gets slaughtered by other kings

now guys surely you can think of a few english/pole/german units, no?

man, I like this idea so much I'll take it to a new thread

[This message has been edited by maroule (edited 09-18-2002).]

[Jagger]

I thought I had read about the Swiss using an all around defense. They did.

In Oman's "Art of War", he has a section on the Swiss tactics and formations. He references an incident of the Swiss using a "hedgehog" formation. In the Swabian War of 1498, 600 Zurich Swiss were caught in an open plain by a 1000 Imperial troops. The Swiss formed a hedgehog and "drove off the enemy with ease and much jesting".

I suspect the hedgehog or shiltron all around defense was fairly common. It is a natural response to certain circumstances. However it has the major drawback of being immobile and extremely vulnerable to missile fire.

I would like to see the hedgehog formation in the game. Of course, I would to like to see both its advantage of lack of flanks combined with immobility and vulnerable to missiles.

[Soapyfrog]

Agreed!

There are certainly ways it can be made to work.

It could only be employed by well-trained units (i.e. not peasants and militia)

It should break more easily under frontal attack by infantry types.

It should be fairly vulnerable to missiles (basically the units would always be "flanked" by missile fire, but never by melee)

It should be especialy vulnerbale to artillery... nice big square target!!