View Full Version : Spartans did not throw deformed babies away: researchers
Intranetusa
12-12-2007, 20:10
SPARTANS For The Lose!!!
" ATHENS (AFP) - The Greek myth that ancient Spartans threw their stunted and sickly newborns off a cliff was not corroborated by archaeological digs in the area, researchers said Monday.
After more than five years of analysis of human remains culled from the pit, also called an apothetes, researchers found only the remains of adolescents and adults between the ages of 18 and 35, Athens Faculty of Medicine Anthropologist Theodoros Pitsios said.
"There were still bones in the area, but none from newborns, according to the samples we took from the bottom of the pit" of the foothills of Mount Taygete near present-day Sparta.
"It is probably a myth, the ancient sources of this so-called practice were rare, late and imprecise," he added.
Meant to attest to the militaristic character of the ancient Spartan people, moralistic historian Plutarch in particular spread the legend during first century AD.
According to Pitsios, the bones studied to date came from the fifth and sixth centuries BC and come from 46 men, confirming the assertion from ancient sources that the Spartans threw prisoners, traitors or criminals into the pit.
The discoveries shine light on an episode during the second war between Sparta and Messene, a fortified city state independent of Sparta, when Spartans defeated the Messenian hero Aristomenes and his 50 warriors, who were all thrown into the pit, he added."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071210/lf_afp/greecehistoryarchaeologychildren;_ylt=AgrKfnoNXIyPpfsuLGDUNBmOe8UF
Perhaps, they were making kebabs of them instead of wasting kilos of fresh meat?
Would be a rational decision.
Perhaps, they were making kebabs of them instead of wasting kilos of fresh meat?
Would be a rational decision.
Kebab was not invented at that time. Maybe another dish:laugh4:
anubis88
12-12-2007, 20:29
It will be very difficult for people to accept such evidence... I mean... thi is one of Sparta's Trademarks:thumbsdown:
Livius Andronicus
12-12-2007, 20:30
I thought the myth was that the Spartans let babies that did not meet the cut fend for themselves in the wild. Am I way off base with that idea?
Decimus Attius Arbiter
12-12-2007, 20:48
Yes, its called exposure. My Greek History Professor told me this.
Long lost Caesar
12-12-2007, 20:53
Perhaps, they were making kebabs of them instead of wasting kilos of fresh meat?
Would be a rational decision.
bah, persian filth. wouldnt find a real spartan munching on that. a brit though...
keravnos
12-12-2007, 21:11
Yes, its called exposure. My Greek History Professor told me this.
Correct.
Ancient greeks used to let all unwanted babies on the garbage dump, outside the polis. There, everyone could come and collect those babies. Most would be raised as slaves and even sold for a profit, while good looking girls would wind up as Hetairai. All the above according to O'Connely, but others confirm it as well.
Rodion Romanovich
12-12-2007, 21:14
Kebab was not invented at that time. Maybe another dish:laugh4:
Maybe feta and olives? :inquisitive: :juggle2:
Rodion Romanovich
12-12-2007, 21:18
Re: Spartans did not throw deformed babies away: researchers
Apparently not, and here is the latest evidence:
http://www.qarl.com/qLab/pile/300/SPARTA.jpg
:wink:
anubis88
12-12-2007, 21:24
Apparently not, and here is the latest evidence:
http://www.qarl.com/qLab/pile/300/SPARTA.jpg
:wink:
SO F****** FUNNY!!!! haha.... laughed for 20 seconds!:laugh4:
Two Words
Yahoo News
And...
According to Pitsios, the bones studied to date came from the fifth and sixth centuries BC and come from 46 men, confirming the assertion from ancient sources that the Spartans threw prisoners, traitors or criminals into the pit.
Pitsios didn't say anything about babies in the pit?
This kind of crap has happened to me, I often do not like the media much!
Not all, but many weak-minded-panic-mongers.
Perturabo
12-12-2007, 21:57
These people definitely had a major 'master race' thing happening.. the worlds most glorified Nazis? I also recall my history teachers indicating exposure as the preferred way of removing non master race types from the gene pool.
Maybe more than master race thing? Its all very complex but overall the Spartz lived on the virtual edge. I'm just saying, as an endangered species, physical or mental weakness was a luxury they could ill afford.
Perturabo
12-12-2007, 22:15
Maybe more than master race thing? Its all very complex but overall the Spartz lived on the virtual edge. I'm just saying, as an endangered species, physical or mental weakness was a luxury they could ill afford.
Yes, I understand they had some major (self created) problems that meant every day could easily have been the last. Net result is still the same. Is totally destroying many moral/cultural values really worth it to keep your excessive mass of slaves and subjugated races under control? I'm sure there could have been a better option, however they were simply too narrow minded to see them.
Centurion Crastinus
12-12-2007, 22:32
Correct.
Ancient greeks used to let all unwanted babies on the garbage dump, outside the polis. There, everyone could come and collect those babies. Most would be raised as slaves and even sold for a profit, while good looking girls would wind up as Hetairai. All the above according to O'Connely, but others confirm it as well.
What is Hetairai anyway? Sex slaves maybe?
What is Hetairai anyway? Sex slaves maybe?
Greek Geishas.
Or should that be Geishoi? The S&M ones would be Geishoi thorakitai.
Anyway hetairai looks like the feminine form of Hetairoi, or companions, so i imagine it means they were female companions, or very high class prostitutes desired as much for their conversation and good company as their sexual availability.
Watchman
12-12-2007, 22:55
The term would be "courtesan", I believe.
Another thing to keep in mind is that newborn baby bones are very soft. Also, if not buried straight away they would surely have been scavenged by wild (or not so wild) animals.
Greek Geishas.
Or should that be Geishoi? The S&M ones would be Geishoi thorakitai.
Anyway hetairai looks like the feminine form of Hetairoi, or companions, so i imagine it means they were female companions, or very high class prostitutes desired as much for their conversation and good company as their sexual availability.
Hetairos (and female Hetaira) means companion which as we all know, can mean comrade, friend, lover etc
Hetaira was a high class prostitute, much like a Geisha as you say. Pericles was in love with one, Aspasia.
In ancient Greek society, hetaerae were independent and sometimes influential women who were required to wear distinctive dresses and had to pay taxes. Composed mostly of ex-slaves and foreigners, these courtesans were renowned for their achievements in dance and music, as well as for their physical talents. There is evidence that, unlike most other women in Greek society at the time, hetaerae were educated. It is remarkable that hetaerae not only were the only females who would actively take part in the symposia, but also that their opinions and beliefs were respected by men, possibly due to the importance of pillow talk
Some similarities have been found between the ancient Greek hetaera, the earlier Babylonian Nadītu, the Japanese Oiran, and the Korean kisaeng, complex figures that are perhaps in an intermediate position between prostitutes and entertainers.
Among the most famous were Thargelia, a renowned Ionian hetaera of ancient times Aspasia, long-time companion of the Athenian politician Pericles, Archeanassa companion of Plato, the famous Neaira, and Thaïs, a concubine of Ptolemy, general on the expedition of Alexander the Great and later king of Egypt.
Hetaerae appear to have been regarded as distinct from pornê or simple prostitutes, and also distinguished from mistresses or wives. In the oration Against Neaera, Demosthenes said:
“We have hetaerae for pleasure, pallakae to care for our daily body’s needs and gynaekes to bear us legitimate children and to be faithful guardians of our households.” Nice
In this same oration, Demosthenes mentions that Neaira's purchase price (both at her original purchase by Timanoridas of Corinth and Eucrates of Leucas and her own subsequent purchase of her freedom) was 30 minas. Since the mina was equal to 100 drachmae and the drachma can be thought of as equivalent to the daily wage of a skilled worker, this would make her purchase price over 8 years salary—obviously beyond the means of the average person.
The male form of the word, hetaeros (pl. hetaeroi), signified male companions in the sense of a business or political associate. Most famously, it referred to Alexander the Great's bodyguard cavalry unit (see Companion cavalry).
Btw, there is an ancient Greek saying, I will give a rough translation
"When the lights are off every woman looks like Lais (famous Corinthian hetaira) :laugh4:
Tellos Athenaios
12-12-2007, 23:13
Hetairai is a very, very broad term. Most often it is used as an euphemism for 'courtesan': litteraly it means girlfriend. ('Real' girlfriends, though, are often called philai for the sake of disambiguity.) When the euphemism is nothing more than just that the women are sometimes called "[gunaikes] pornai" which means "prostitutes".
However Hetairai is more often a word used to describe courtesans of similar standing as those in China during for instance the Tang Dynasty.
EDIT: And just in case you were wondering what the pallakae are in the post above mine: the proper Greek transliteration would be pallakai meaning concubines.
MarcusAureliusAntoninus
12-13-2007, 00:14
Up until somewhat recently, many different peoples disposed of imperfect babies. If there is a baby with a deformity, disease, or mental disablity that prevents it from becomeing a preductive adult, the baby would be a drain on a village that had a very limited amount of resources. If you could tell that a baby would never be able to pull his weight and would risk the lives of others in the village, for the good of the group you would kill said baby.
Horst Nordfink
12-13-2007, 00:19
I'm pretty sure that Geishas aren't and never have been prostitutes of any kind. They are simply professional hostesses. I think the impression they are is a Western myth.
Any Japanese forum members that can back me up?
I was expecting a thread about how instead of babies they threw researchers away who had beliefs different from the state ones.
Intranetusa
12-13-2007, 02:35
Greek Geishas.
Or should that be Geishoi? The S&M ones would be Geishoi thorakitai.
.
Hetaira was a high class prostitute, much like a Geisha as you say. Pericles was in love with one, Aspasia.
I'm pretty sure that Geishas aren't and never have been prostitutes of any kind. They are simply professional hostesses. I think the impression they are is a Western myth.
Any Japanese forum members that can back me up?
horst nordfink, I'm not Japanese but you are correct.
The belief that Geishas are prostitutes is a western myth and the result of ignorance...
Geishas are not prostitutes. Their purpose to provide "non-sexual" entertainment.
did they throw black dudes wearing dashikis into big pits?
Beefy187
12-13-2007, 04:56
I'm pretty sure that Geishas aren't and never have been prostitutes of any kind. They are simply professional hostesses. I think the impression they are is a Western myth.
Any Japanese forum members that can back me up?
Not a pro in history but im japanese and your correct:bow:
tapanojum
12-13-2007, 06:21
did they throw black dudes wearing dashikis into big pits?
Yes, but only those who spoke of "madness"
totally destroying many moral/cultural values
Always keep in mind we're the ones that invented those moral/cultural values,
not them. They would have most likely viewed it as a method of crowd control?
Perturabo
12-13-2007, 08:15
Always keep in mind we're the ones that invented those moral/cultural values,
not them. They would have most likely viewed it as a method of crowd control?
I guess so, however even the other Greek cities found it a bit excessive at times. Its all relative.
Even Athenian 'democracy' was vastly different to what we think of democracy today meaning.
Digby Tatham Warter
12-13-2007, 10:13
Another thing to keep in mind is that newborn baby bones are very soft. Also, if not buried straight away they would surely have been scavenged by wild (or not so wild) animals.
True but if your including the deep pit mentioned in the first post, would animals have scavenged down there so readily?
horst nordfink, I'm not Japanese but you are correct.
The belief that Geishas are prostitutes is a western myth and the result of ignorance...
Geishas are not prostitutes. Their purpose to provide "non-sexual" entertainment.
So the movie "Memoirs of a Geisha" is wrong about this part? There she "graduates" by selling her virginity (but indeed this is a very small part of the Geisha business). What other things are incorrect in it? I don't have much more of a reference of Geishas than ShogunTW (mass murderers) and that movie, and they are sort of incompatible already :beam:.
Mediolanicus
12-13-2007, 10:30
How can something they didn't find be an evidence for something?
They didn't find the bones of any newborns, so they didn't kill them?
throughout history there was a huge chance that an infant died in it's first few weeks of live. Even if the Spartans didn't kill their deformed babies, there still would have died many a newborn a natural death...
So if they don't find the remains of those newborns either, there is no evidence that the Spatans did or didn't kill their deformed and sick babies.
Reno Melitensis
12-13-2007, 11:43
Mortality of infants was very high in the ancient world, particulary in there first six months, as thanks to their mothers milk they will by that time be able to produce their own antibodies.
Physical handicap babies where treated as a weakness, a curse by the Gods, or simply as a panishment inflicted by the gods for past sins of the perents. By Medival times this was a very common believe, and in my country as few as 40 years ago such childrean where kept indoors, as something that you have to hide as if it was a shame.
Thanks heavens nowdays people have come to respect them as human.:2thumbsup:
Cheers
M to the A
12-13-2007, 12:31
How can something they didn't find be an evidence for something?
They didn't find the bones of any newborns, so they didn't kill them?
throughout history there was a huge chance that an infant died in it's first few weeks of live. Even if the Spartans didn't kill their deformed babies, there still would have died many a newborn a natural death...
So if they don't find the remains of those newborns either, there is no evidence that the Spatans did or didn't kill their deformed and sick babies.
Not exactly, they are only investigating the Spartan pit where some people say they threw weak babies in. So people dying of 'normal' causes has nothing to do with it, or am I wrong and did they throw everybody in the pit? I don't know anything about the Spartans..
Ok, there are several different things going on here. It seems like déjà vu, all over again?
And...
people have a right to be a little confused. I don't think that was the intent of the media, as typically their goal is just to sensationalize and deliberately mislead people.
First, the media are doing what they do best, making spurious claims about the nature of the archaeological investigation du jour.
Second, as other posts above have amply pointed out the erroneous claim by the media actually concerns the practice of exposure and abandonment and not the implied infanticide. Abandonment (sudo -adoption) occurred in urban and exposure (normally a death sentence) in rural settings.
Third, the Physical Anthropologist cited by the media report, Theodoros Pitsios, clearly states the archaeological excavations were conducted at the Apothetes near Mount Taygete and the site of ancient Sparta. Now the report does seem to quote him several times; 'There were still bones in the area, but none from newborns, according to the samples we took from the bottom of the pit' and 'It is probably a myth, the ancient sources of this so-called practice were rare, late and imprecise,' however one does not know what the question was or if the citation was complete. My guess is that the reporters question was something like, 'where’s the dead babies' and the Phyical Anthropologist's answer was 'no this is not the place were babies were abandoned...'
Forth, according to tradition the Apothetes was a pit where the bodies of adults were deposited. Tradition never stated that babies were placed herein.
Fifth, the end of the report finally returned to reporting 'According to Pitsios, the bones studied to date came from the fifth and sixth centuries BC and come from 46 men, confirming the assertion from ancient sources that the Spartans threw prisoners, traitors or criminals into the pit.'
I hope this helps clear it up a little.
Kebab was not invented at that time. Maybe another dish:laugh4:
the dating of kebabs is disputed. cooking meat on a skewer is a fairly obvious way of cooking, so it is easily conceivable that the spartans utilised this technique.
Watchman
12-13-2007, 21:43
So the movie "Memoirs of a Geisha" is wrong about this part? There she "graduates" by selling her virginity (but indeed this is a very small part of the Geisha business). What other things are incorrect in it?I understand that movie tends to take flak for being somewhat sensationalised.
That aside, while the geisha technically speaking were not in the business of providing 'physical entertainment' you get about three guesses if many didn't - and, one would imagine, don't - in practice become the mistresses of their more regular employers...
If nothing else, money and power have universally been found to be strong aphrodisiacs.
the dating of kebabs is disputed. cooking meat on a skewer is a fairly obvious way of cooking, so it is easily conceivable that the spartans utilised this technique.
The Spartans were not really into gastronomic research. "Melas Zomos" remember? Damn, I hate their life.
That aside, while the geisha technically speaking were not in the business of providing 'physical entertainment' you get about three guesses if many didn't - and, one would imagine, don't - in practice become the mistresses of their more regular employers...
If nothing else, money and power have universally been found to be strong aphrodisiacs.
Well if I was paying money for entertainment I would want the whole "package". Especially if I were a medieval Japanese warlord.:whip:
....'no this not the place were babies were abandoned...'
"These are not the bones you're looking for" [makes jedi hand-motion]
the dating of kebabs is disputed. cooking meat on a skewer is a fairly obvious way of cooking, so it is easily conceivable that the spartans utilised this technique.
Ah yes, but in the true spirit of the article, no kebabs were found in the pit, therefore they did not exist!
woad&fangs
12-13-2007, 23:15
Correct.
Ancient greeks used to let all unwanted babies on the garbage dump, outside the polis. There, everyone could come and collect those babies. Most would be raised as slaves and even sold for a profit, while good looking girls would wind up as Hetairai. All the above according to O'Connely, but others confirm it as well.
Isn't that what happened in the ancient Greek play Oedipus Rex?
keravnos
12-13-2007, 23:28
Yes. Oedippus was left to die in the wilderness so that his father would avoid his fate, aka his son killing him.
Yes. Oedippus was left to die in the wilderness so that his father would avoid his fate, aka his son killing him.
After Oedippus however it became clear that you can't trust wild animals or shepherds with a job. If you want something done, do it yourself.
Priamus, however living on the other side of the Aegean never heard of it, so he did the same thing with Paris.
And since Latin farmers knew nothing of Greek myths, somebody did the same with some twins (apparently Italian wolves are vegetarian) and we got those damn Romans!:inquisitive:
Sounds like a title for a new Romanian pop hit; 'Balsam cel Vegan-Lup??'
Or the 'Sarmizegetusa-luptătorii?'
the dating of kebabs is disputed. cooking meat on a skewer is a fairly obvious way of cooking, so it is easily conceivable that the spartans utilised this technique.
Cooking meat on skewers gets a regular mention in Homer. While it is hard to date anything in the Illiad and Oddysey, both texts (I personally think there were two different authors) are consistent in their descriptions of sacrifices involving the meat being threaded on skewers and cooked. Then the meat was taken off the skewers and eaten by the congregation.
Perhaps this is an unlooked for reason why human sacrifice became less common in hellenised places. At an animal sacrifice you get lunch.
Tellos Athenaios
12-14-2007, 01:41
After Oedippus however it became clear that you can't trust wild animals or shepherds with a job. If you want something done, do it yourself.
Priamus, however living on the other side of the Aegean never heard of it, so he did the same thing with Paris.
And since Latin farmers knew nothing of Greek myths, somebody did the same with some twins (apparently Italian wolves are vegetarian) and we got those damn Romans!:inquisitive:
Not to mention the tale of how the Medians lost their rule to a Persian.
Were shepherds the social services of the mythological world?
Perhaps the ones that visited Mary and Joseph were just checking up on them.
Intranetusa
12-14-2007, 09:21
So the movie "Memoirs of a Geisha" is wrong about this part? There she "graduates" by selling her virginity (but indeed this is a very small part of the Geisha business). What other things are incorrect in it? I don't have much more of a reference of Geishas than ShogunTW (mass murderers) and that movie, and they are sort of incompatible already :beam:.
That movie is a sensationalized work by Hollywood, based off of a book written by an American author named Arthur Golden.
And we all know how historically IN-accurate Total War games can be... :D
Were shepherds the social services of the mythological world?
Perhaps the ones that visited Mary and Joseph were just checking up on them.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
(Sorry for the blasphemy:shame: )
Shepherd: "I am sorry Mr. Joseph but child care is going to take care of baby Jesus. Giving birth in a stable clearly shows that you can't take care of the child."
Joseph: "No, no you got it wrong. He is the Son of God"
Sepherd: "Yeah right, we have heard that one before"
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