View Full Version : What we will see!
i had a "bad" talk today online.
so i will tell u what we will face (just my opinion)
i already posted this unitmisbalance 2 weeks ago and there are many more i figured many out so it comes the day where other find it out too!
i see so many guys moaning about the misbalance and all the "superunits" and i dont think that this units are soooo super!
but ok, if this goes on we change nothing!
if we think 10k is already too much, ok!
change it! but again.. Dont let the masses choose, if u do u will face nothing otehr than we have now.
bring possible solutions.
the best units are maa thats clear, if cheaper its better u can raise the valour. there are mayn units with u can easy raise till 4 valour, still with 8k is this possible. a unit with more than 8 moral is good enought to win and dont rout.
so what we face...
arbas in mass, any other missle unit is shit compared to them.
cavarcher are near useless, crossbowcav is useless too (300 florin)
so at the end we have maybe 6 or 7 usefull units left with enougth power, if u dont use them u will lose vs good players!
so what u want? u go and and say...."dont use this...this .....this...this and this unit"???
lol, this game was made with this units and if we dont can use this units, than why we should play this game?
its in the nature of all guys, we want to win, thatswhy we buy units wich give us a good chance to win.
so plz, accept this units are powerfull use them urself and play it.
i heard today, that the rush is possible again...coz the infantry is too strong, yes!
i thank god ! its possible again, so u guys have to work on ur controll skill to win vs a rush! ofcourse i dont like rush, there is not fun but u wont play this guys twice, so whats the prob?
there are bonusses wich give u an extrem push on 1 point in game, if u know it and use it u cant lose anyway! so what u want?
go below 6k and u get murdered all the time!
face it, this maa are the new monks and everyone will use it, stop moaning and better think about possible counterarmys!
exactly this is what u dont do! u dont go for possible solutions, no first u start to speak about that this is unbalaced and this units are too strong....maybe u tryed some halbediers? if not do it plz maybe ur surprised..... imo u should first test the units and than start to speak about all this "bad unbalanced" units....wich are not such extrem unbalanced.
i love this game, but i saw again that some of our players just go till 1 point and than they stop, they dont think behind this point.
they just use tactics ideas of others but dont bring an own input!
my solution for all this is: dont join games with more than 10k...(or less how u like)
or implent in the patch, that games with more than 10k per player are NOT ALLOWED!
dont give the host the possibility to set what he want. this give just more probs and bugs... bring a standart wich dont allow to choose.
maybe lower this 4 max penalty, raise the penalty if u buy more than this 4/3/2 units.
a good solution is also, if u just can higher the moral with raising the valour, but the unit-stats are stil the same...
horses: i wont explain too much but the bonusses are terrible if u know how to use u can break everything!
spear-units should be have less rearattackpenaltys, maybe more power vs horses...
i try to move on my cloud now and speak from there.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
maybe im stupid or arrogant or whatever, but i think i exploited the system already...
so if u go back and read some of my first posts u will see that i already spoke about th probs where some didnt thougth about it.
anyway....do what u want....im just a player wich is crazy stupid or whatever...
u cant chage the guys! they play there 10k games or higher....so set the rules this is best!
and again: Dont let the masses choose!
ur tired koc
Ppl should take note of the above?
FasT not know what unit does what yet as he not played.But i think Kocmoc has a better idea than most about units...
Cyaz tomoz Kocmoc i shall be online all confused..... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Red Inquisition
09-18-2002, 02:37
Well said for the most part.
I don't agree with setting the Florin limit to only 10k though. Poeple should be able to host with as many florin as they want. If you don't like it don't play their game. I know I won't.
I agree the high florin games suck. being able to have 16 units with 4 valor is not fun.
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***Metalpriest***
"Bringing the Faith of Metal to the boyband Heathins"
[This message has been edited by Red Inquisition (edited 09-17-2002).]
the best units are maa ........
Which units r maa ?
Well, I don't really find these Man-At-Arms so special. They're good, maybe better valuable than other units but hey - they're all beatable. After all the 4 unit max of same type rule is enforced now - a good move I believe. Any solutions to beat MAA? What about ruling out their 'imbalance' by skilled play? Flanking, rearing anyone? And if there is something the Knights are good at it's killing MAA! There are many solutions...being creative is the key.
Tera.
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
yes tera!
i think this too, this game is very well done! u can counter all units and win every game.
u just need some skill, maybe thatswhy they moaning.......coz mi was so easy to play...dunno.....
skill is needed!
koc
SKD_Navy
09-18-2002, 04:04
well said tera!
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Proud Leader Of the SKD Clan
Visit Us Here (http://www.skdcorps.cjb.net)
Hi Mike
I really do hope that this post is not aimed at myself as you completely misunderstood what I said, I know about the maa, s and the only reason I asked if u were limiting maa, s in the game earlier was because after playing a game with one of the wolves clan this week he took 7 maa,s, this is up to him and as many will do it, I just think it is dull. Had you not bitten my head off when I asked the question I would have shut up myself, this game isnt as easy as shogun was, I agree m8 and I played that game as long as you did, it will take longer to master, but there are few troops troops that kill the maa, s cav and armour killers being them, hopefully the patch will sort some of it out.
An annoyed
Sp00n.
Remember that if you take a fifth unit of the same type it will cost more than the original cost - call it an enforced 4 max rule. The more you get, the more they cost. Hence 7 MAA would probably cost loads.
MAA aren't definetely "super ashis" lol - they're maybe the most "easy" units to use, most don't cavalry so that a plus for the use of MAA. Hence they're used a lot.
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
MagyarKhans Cham
09-18-2002, 05:07
men at arms? are that the one that our Khan uses for shooting practice?
soem units are unbalanced, but for now its important as well that teh noobing newbees upgrade their valour instead of a 3 weapon ugrade.
DthB4Dishonour
09-18-2002, 05:13
Hail Everyone,
I agree with much of what Kocmoc has said. This game is so great because of its diversity. When people say yes this unit is to strong or this unit is not strong enough I think they dont see the game for what it is.
Some people seem to want all units equal so that they wont get beat. They dont want to put in the time of testing armies and the different tactics needed for different army makeups. They then wish to play with elite players and be on even ground. This is false they havent put in the time so they shouldnt be on even ground. If you dont want to put in the time then they should be content with being an average player and have fun playing average opponents. Many average players have choosen to work around this by making very high Florin games then saying "who is really good? come to my game florin 99999". This in my opinion negatetes and virtually turns off many realistic options like morale.
I play most of my games at 8-12k. 12k sometimes if its late era if its in late era. Its sometimes nice to be able to buy some rarely used units which otherwise you cant really buy in late era ie Gothic Knights. I do also sometimes play at around 5k but there are often weird chain routs (even units that are full and havent even engaged yet sometimes rout).
I dont agree with Kocmoc in that they should make it 10k for every game without possiblity for changing. I'm assuming he said that sarcasticly However I think that when tournaments are finally hosted they should be 8-10k if early and high, 8-12k if high and late.
RTK Paul
"He who knows himself and the enemy will not be endangered even in a hundred battles"
-Sun Tzu
First of all, I don't know how the rest of you comprehended Kocmoc's post. I tried my best but I'm still confused as to much of what he is trying to say. If someone could fix up his translation a bit I would appreciate it.
From what I gather he's saying MAA are too strong and that we shouldn't be allowed to host games with lots of florin.
Well first of all, the florin limit should be 999,999 florin JUST BECAUSE. Because not everyone bought the game to play against clans and in ladder matches and sometimes people just want to have fun and play with lots of strong units.
Second, the host of each game can set the florin to whatever they want. This alone eliminates any need to shut down the max florin. Just set it low in your own game.
Third, most of the people I play with online use a 5k florin per player limit, so I guess I don't notice all these imbalances since I play with people who use 5k florin/player.
So in summary, make the florin limit 999,999 for fun's sake, and if you are having balance problems, host your games with 5k florin/player and enjoy the game. There are counters for every unit, you just need to learn them. We all do.
[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 09-17-2002).]
ElmarkOFear
09-18-2002, 05:37
I have not found the Men At Arms units to be overpowering yet, but maybe i haven't ran into the player that knows how to use them correctly. I play the Almohad faction all the time and if you look at their individual units there are none that seem overpowering. I played around with upgrades and fought many custom battles and now I have an army that is a match for any army out there. I know how to use each of my units and when to attack, defend, what angle of attack to use, when to stop chasing routing troops, when to hold, when to charge, etc. . Experience is the key. I have seen many people, leave 2v2 and up games once their armies die. They will never become good players unless they stay around and watch what the successful teams are doing to win. They use excuses like: "My partners stink." and complaing about super units etc . . I saw a player who said the unbeatable units in the game were pikemen, and armored pikemen. Even after losing to my team 2 or 3 times with this type of army the person refused to agree that this unit is not a super unit. Oh well, I can see this person being unhappy and leaving the game soon, because he refuses to change and adapt. The secret to victory is to know your enemy!
Kocmoc, I can show you a missile unit that is better in my opinion than the Arbalestors though maybe not for the reason you think. Email me at: el-marko@insightbb.com or catch me online and I will show you this unit and how it should be upgraded, used to good effect. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I think this game is much better balanced than the original or MI game. The arbalestors are not really that overpowering until enemy units are tired or very tired. At that point the arbalestors can easily rout them do to the fear factor. If arbalestors were made to tire more easily and have this effect their shooting, reloading ability, I think that it would take care of the problem. Good luck guys have fun, sorry to make such a long rambling post, but I think everyone needs to experiment more and not stick to one kind of army. Even though I almost always play the Almohads, I do change my army around in subtle ways depending on whom I am playing and what florin level is being used. I agree that a good level is between 8 to 10k. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote Originally posted by ElmarkOFear:
Even though I almost always play the Almohads, I do change my army around in subtle ways depending on whom I am playing and what florin level is being used. I agree that a good level is between 8 to 10k. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/QUOTE]
I'd be interested in learning what you would field in a 5k florin game, as that's the amount I most frequently play.
ElmarkOFear
09-18-2002, 05:53
I rarely play at 5k, mostly 8k, but I will look at what I would choose in the custom battle mode and let you know. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote Originally posted by ElmarkOFear:
I rarely play at 5k, mostly 8k, but I will look at what I would choose in the custom battle mode and let you know. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/QUOTE]
Cool. Thanks. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 09-18-2002).]
ElmarkOFear
09-18-2002, 06:09
Ok here is a good 5k army. A bit smallish, but still a nice rush army if you spread them out wide:
1 - V3 Militia Sergeant General Wep 0 Arm 1
3 - V3 Almohad Urban Militia Wep 0 Arm 1
1 - V2 Militia Sergeant Wep 0 Arm 1
2 - V2 Militia Sergeants Wep 0 Arm 0
3 - V0 Murabitin units Wep 0 Arm 0
I use the 3 Almohad units as my main fighting force in the center. I use the 1 militia sergeant and V3 to cover any horse units coming to my flank. I use the 1 V2 Arm 1 militia seargeant unit to cover the other flank or to help out if enemy has a larger spread of troops. The V2 militia sergeants I use on either flank for the same purpose but I engage them in battle last and only when necessary. My general unit I use in whatever capacity he is needed in. He is very tough and will not rout easily. The Murabitin units I move in behind my Almohad Urban Militia units and try to focus them on one unit that is close to routing. Also, once they have depleted their javelins they actually make pretty decent fighting men. So there you have it. Elmo's secret 5k ElmoHead army!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Very interesting. I wish I knew more about each unit type in the game and how their basic stats are affected by each upgrade - valour, weapon, and armor. It seems like the secret to fielding a formidible force lies there.
Also, how thin do you spread your 3xV3 Almohads?
ElmarkOFear
09-18-2002, 09:51
I only spread em about 3 or four deep. Rarely do I go to 2 deep unless I am trying to stop a flank from cav. Valour adds 2 to morale, 1 to attack, and 1 to defend. A wep upgrade adds 1 to attack and an armor upgrade adds 1 to defend. During your attack the attack factor kicks in first, but after about 1 min or less the defense factor kicks in. That is why you see units initially winning a fight, but then slowly losing ground. Their attack value is higher, but their defend value is lower than the unit they are fighting. Use either Magya's unit compare tool or go to the Shade clan website and use their compare tool to find out the base values for each unit for these 3 statistics. Also, the Brady game guide has an in depth discussion of the computations that go into deciding which unit will win the battle. Good luck and have fun. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif UglyElmo
NinjaKilla
09-18-2002, 16:41
I dont think MAA are too good at all. Personally I ve been playing 6k although I might try 7k as the cav gets underused. Too high a florin level definately ruins the game... what's more I cant be arsed to sit their for ages distributing spare florins on honour...
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
MagyarKhans Cham
09-18-2002, 16:52
6500-8500 florins feels best
ElmarkOFear
09-18-2002, 22:58
I find 8k gives you the flexibility you need to either buy better troops or upgrade lower level ones. You will not be able to buy everything, so you must make choices at this level of florins and know your opponent to get the best value for your money. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
GAH!
Its apparent to Vanya that Kocmoc types faster than he can think.
That doesn't change the fact Vanya thinks there is merit to what he said.
Then again, Vanya has only played a handful of games online, as He is having fun with the SP campaigns right now. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Vanya sez... get Handgunners and pistol-whip the MAAs so their run back to their MAA-MAAs. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif Best put them in wedgie formation just to make sure. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
GAH!
Last time Vanya was online, He saw armies loaded to the brim with Order Foot Soldiers. Vanya sez... too bad He didn't take a Podiatrist into battle then.
GAH!
Sorry to sound so dum http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
But which units r the MAA? the ones with spears?
Or just the footsoldiers? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif
Quote Originally posted by FasT:
Sorry to sound so dum http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
But which units r the MAA? ... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif[/QUOTE]
Those which run back to their harems.
GAH!
We're speaking of the Feudal Man-at-arms here altough the Chivalric version of it is potent too.
Price - 150
Att - 3
Def - 2
Armour - 3
Morale - 2
@ v.0
They're excellent warriors ...very effective once you cheapy upgrade their valour. However as many pointed out they're not super ashis or something - they're easy to use (have a balance between att and def + good morale) but they have their counter enemies...try cavalry and armour piercing units.
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
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