Decimation

[Javolenus]

Hi All,

As a newcomer to EB I wanted to raise the issue of dealing with captured settlements. I think the EB choices are the same as RTW (Occupy, Enslave, Massacre). But didn't the Romans use decimation (i.e. the killing of one in ten) as a punishment? I'm not an expert but have dredged this up from my memory. Just thought I'd give the idea punt.

[Chris A. T.]

Hello Javolenus,
I don't think those options can be modded as such: Some mods change the names, descriptions and sounds of some of the options ("Suppression" instead of "massacre" f.ex.), but the mechanics seem to stay the same.
By the way, I think decimation was a punishment for cowardice in battle, not a means to control conquered cities, or punish rebelion. In such cases, they would use less systematic slaughter, I think.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well first of all the options you see are generic one-size-fits all names for doing nasty things to local people. In other words, for every faction that scroll reads the same three words, and therefore those words need to have two characteristics: 1) they should be descriptive (and mind you according to the RTW manual, the 3rd option basically means killing off roughly 75% of the entire populace - which is even more brutal than decimation); and 2) the names should be fitting for all factions.

This leaves you with the greatest common divisor, and may or may not completely suit the faction you play with.

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Side notes: the exact nomenclature will probably change for EB 1.1, to remove some of the ambiguity still left.

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I was under the impression that decimation was a military practice of dealing with muntinous legions to 'set an example'; and was considered a brutal measure even by Roman standards?

[antisocialmunky]

Well, if you want to kill 1/10th of your men, just go suicide some against some pointy nudists.

[CirdanDharix]

Part of the brutality in decimation is that it's completely random--basically everyone gets a one-in-ten chance to die. Symbolically, it's like sentencing the entire legion to death, but 'suspending' the sentence on most guys so that they can die doing something useful.

As to what the Romans did to enemy/rebellious settlements, they generally killed all the males, let the soldiers have a romp through the place raping and pillaging for a few days, then they carried the women and children away as slaves and completed the material destruction of the city.

[Javolenus]

Good answers all, so many thanks. And having checked, you're right about decimation being a punishment for cowardice etc. I also take the point that the descriptive terms used must suit all factions, so in that context 'decimation' wouldn't work anyway. Cheers for the replies.

[cmacq]

I believe Tellos Athenaios is correct, decimation was indeed a military punishment applied to a select cohort within a given legion that displayed either mutinous and/or cowardly behavior in battle. The first documented used occurred during the Volscian War in the 5th century BC. and last possible reference may be found in the Strategikon, written sometime in the 6th century AD.

[Ludens]

In fact, the only instance of a decimation I know was when Crassus raised several legions to fight Spartacus, and even then it was already considered Archaic. Did any other decimations take place within EB's time-frame?

[Senatus Populusque Romanus]

As far as i know, Romans "wiped out" a city when the citizens of the city help its militia or deny Roman occupation of that settlement.

Therefore, if the settlement fought but its citizens "accepted" Roman occupation, Romans left them alone.:laugh4:

[Centurion Crastinus]

In fact, the only instance of a decimation I know was when Crassus raised several legions to fight Spartacus, and even then it was already considered Archaic. Did any other decimations take place within EB's time-frame?

I know that Marc Antony threatened to do it. Whether he did it or not I do not know. Julius Caeser I am sure thought about doing it after his legions mutinied on him after Pharsalus.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Decimation was the traditional punishement for cowardice in battle, mutiny would be crucifiction, whether it was one in ten or everyone would depend on how mutinous they were. The most important thing about decimation was that everyone drew lots and then the other nine guys beat the unlucky sod to death.

[cmacq]

Apparently, the Romans called it Decimatio. Yet, there was the Vicesimatio and Centesimatio as well. From what I've seen, these punishments could be given for any major infraction?

Polybius
The Histories
Book 6

Chapter 36

[1] When this time comes, the man to whom the first watch fell by lot makes his rounds accompanied by some friends as witnesses. [2] He visits the posts mentioned in his orders, not only those near the vallum and the gates, but the pickets also of the infantry maniples and cavalry squadrons. [3] If he finds the guards of the first watch awake he receives their tessera, but if he finds that anyone is asleep or has left his post, he calls those with him to witness the fact, and proceeds on his rounds. [4] Those who go the rounds in the succeeding watches act in a similar manner. [5] As I said, the charge of sounding a bugle at the beginning of each watch, so that those going the rounds may visit the different stations at the right time, falls on the centurions of the first maniple of the triarii in each legion, who take it by turns for a day. [6] Each of the men who have gone the rounds brings back the tesserae at daybreak to the tribune. If they deliver them all they are suffered to depart without question; [7] but if one of them delivers fewer than the number of stations visited, they find out from examining the signs on the tesserae which station is missing, [8] and on ascertaining this the tribune calls the centurion of the maniple and he brings before him the men who were on picket duty, and they are confronted with the patrol. [9] If the fault is that of the picket, the patrol makes matters clear at once by calling the men who had accompanied him, for he is bound to do this; but if nothing of the kind has happened, the fault rests on him.

Chapter 37

[1] A court-martial composed of all the tribunes at once meets to try him, and if he is found guilty he is punished by the bastinado. [2] This is inflicted as follows: The tribune takes a cudgel and just touches the condemned man with it, [3] after which all in the camp beat or stone him, in most cases dispatching him in the camp itself. [4] But even those who manage to escape are not saved thereby: impossible! for they are not allowed to return to their homes, and none of the family would dare to receive such a man in his house. So that those who have of course fallen into this misfortune are utterly ruined. [5] The same punishment is inflicted on the optio and on the praefect of the squadron, if they do not give the proper orders at the right time to the patrols and the praefect of the next squadron. [6] Thus, owing to the extreme severity and inevitableness of the penalty, the night watches of the Roman army are most scrupulously kept. [7] While the soldiers are subject to the tribune, the latter are subject to the consuls. [8] A tribune, and in the case of the allies a praefect, has the right of inflicting fines, of demanding sureties, and of punishing by flogging. [9] The bastinado is also inflicted on those who steal anything from the camp; on those who give false evidence; on young men who have abused their persons; and finally on anyone who has been punished thrice for the same fault. [10] Those are the offences which are punished as crimes, the following being treated as unmanly acts and disgraceful in a soldier — when a man boasts falsely to the tribune of his valour in the field in order to gain distinction; [11] when any men who have been placed in a covering force leave the station assigned to them from fear; likewise when anyone throws away from fear any of his arms in the actual battle. [12] Therefore the men in covering forces often face certain death, refusing to leave their ranks even when vastly outnumbered, owing to dread of the punishment they would meet with; [13] and again in the battle men who have lost a shield or sword or any other arm often throw themselves into the midst of the enemy, hoping either to recover the lost object or to escape by death from inevitable disgrace and the taunts of their relations.

Chapter 38

[1] If the same thing ever happens to large bodies, and if entire maniples desert their posts when exceedingly hard pressed, the officers refrain from inflicting the bastinado or the death penalty on all, but find a solution of the difficulty which is both salutary and terror-striking. [2] The tribune assembles the legion, and brings up those guilty of leaving the ranks, reproaches them sharply, and finally chooses by lots sometimes five, sometimes eight, sometimes twenty of the offenders, so adjusting the number thus chosen that they form as near as possible the tenth part of those guilty of cowardice. [3] Those on whom the lot falls are bastinadoed mercilessly in the manner above described; the rest receive rations of barley instead of wheat and are ordered to encamp outside the camp on an unprotected spot. [4] As therefore the danger and dread of drawing the fatal lot affects all equally, as it is uncertain on whom it will fall; and as the public disgrace of receiving barley rations falls on all alike, this practice is that best calculated both the inspire fear and to correct the mischief.

Translation by W. R. Paton

Please see TITI LIVI AB VRBE CONDITA LIBER II Chapter 59 for the first documented example. This occurred during the Volscian War in the 5th century BC.

[antisocialmunky]

TITI

Latin is funny like that sometimes.

[cmacq]

Indeed, the one and only titi, of the many titi, or the titi of Gaul?