Your (subjective) opinions about Turks

[Mete Han]

The thing is I have been writing this historical novel about a Turkish khan and I need some opinions concerning Turks from a variety of people. I am having some constipation in emulating empathy for understanding what other people thought about the Turks in like 200 AD's. Still your thoughts about mongols and Turks even after they (us) converted to Islam might light some spark. If you guys (European and Middle Eastern preferably) can list your negative and positive opinions about Turks it would be very helpful. Any but any sincere opinion, emotion or belief would be most welcome?

[Marshal Murat]

Before they took Constinantinople, my understanding is that Turks weren't considered to be real civilized. The hill-soldiers, warriors from the mountains.

[Watchman]

Well... for starters it might be slightly difficult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#History) to find legit "Turkish" khans in 3rd century AD... :sweatdrop:

Before they took Constinantinople, my understanding is that Turks weren't considered to be real civilized. The hill-soldiers, warriors from the mountains.Nomads mostly, actually. The Anatolian plateau is a sort of semi-steppe, and the Turks weren't even close to the first steppe émigres to set up shop there.

[Mete Han]

Well... for starters it might be slightly difficult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#History) to find legit "Turkish" khans in 3rd century AD... :sweatdrop:

It depends on what you call Turkish but still your opinions are welcome

[Watchman]

Well, the first ones to actually be known by that name were the 6th-century Gökturks... Turkic-speaking and proto-Turkic tribes had of course been around quite a bit longer, but AFAIK trying to figure out which of those ephemeral steppe empires were proto-Turkic and which proto-Mongol is something of a major headache and bone of contention among scholars.
Not helped one bit by the little detail the buggers weren't too prone of writing things down, or generally too fastidious about who they let into their federations/empires.

[Mete Han]

Well, the first ones to actually be known by that name were the 6th-century Gökturks... Turkic-speaking and proto-Turkic tribes had of course been around quite a bit longer, but AFAIK trying to figure out which of those ephemeral steppe empires were proto-Turkic and which proto-Mongol is something of a major headache and bone of contention among scholars.
Not helped one bit by the little detail the buggers weren't too prone of writing things down, or generally too fastidious about who they let into their federations/empires.

that's hardly what I'm asking, come on!!! what comes to your mind when you hear the word Turk?

[Mete Han]

Before they took Constinantinople, my understanding is that Turks weren't considered to be real civilized. The hill-soldiers, warriors from the mountains.

please elaborate on that

[Watchman]

Steppe nomads.

Whose exact appereance and suchlike actually varied a fair bit from one end of the steppe belt to another - and once they got going, there were soon Turks from Syria and Anatolia to the gates of China, so not too much more specific to add. Doubly so as the early proto-Turks are sort of poorly documented (eg. I've seen the Huns tagged as both proto-Mongols and proto-Turks...).

[Mete Han]

Steppe nomads.

Whose exact appereance and suchlike actually varied a fair bit from one end of the steppe belt to another - and once they got going, there were soon Turks from Syria and Anatolia to the gates of China, so not too much more specific to add. Doubly so as the early proto-Turks are sort of poorly documented (eg. I've seen the Huns tagged as both proto-Mongols and proto-Turks...).

I am writing a novel not a history book. I need emotions. Do you fear'em Like them, Hate them, Respect? whatever... I am trying to put myself in the boots of a person who is not of Turkic descendant.

[KrooK]

You asked to tell the truth. When I hear Turk now I'm thinking about Kebab ;)
Because my favourite kebab bar is being managed by Turk.

But lets take a historical look.
Turk - about 200, 300, 4000 AD I have never heard that there were any Turks around. Maybe Huns, if we count them as Turks.

Turks were ok IMO. Before 1620 century Poland and Turkey respected themselves and did not fought a war (I'm not counting wars on Hunguary, because there there were not too many Poles). I think Turks were very similar to Poles that time. Different country, different culture but similar spirit. Turkish horses and part of weapons were being loved here - hussaria horses had turkish ancestors and part of sabres from Syria (called damascenki) were very popular in Poland.

Into XVI century -due to hard wars - Turks became enemies, but not enemies that you hate. Just guys on the others side, who are enemy and must be killed IMO. I think both nations simply had nothing to each other.
In the XVIII century Turks became liked again.
And in the end of XVIII century, when Turkey did not accept Partition of Poland, Turks became really liked. Now its underlined into historical books.

To sum up. Turks are ok and were ok but they had some disadvantages.
They behaved with prisoners very bad. This is damaging good opinion about them but with all enemies Poland faced into XVI century - Turks were most interesting.

[Watchman]

Why should *I* hate or fear them ? :inquisitive: Contemporaries might be another issue, but AFAIK around 3rd century AD the Turks were yet small enough fry they didn't particularly terrify their immediate neighbours (other steppe confederations - at least one of them considerably stronger than the proto-Turks - and the Chinese, who had already gotten quite practiced in the art of fending off pesky horse barbarians)...

Might be a matter of taste, but personally I tend to insist novels that claim a historical setting also stick to that history. But YMMV.

[Sarmatian]

Watchman, I think you misunderstood the point. A historical novel might as well about a guy on the walls of Constantinople in 1453, who never really existed. Historical novels must have a historical setting but not neccessarily historical accuracy. Like in paintings or statues. There are numerous painting depicting historical persons or events that aren't completely accurate... It's still art. Why should literature be any different...

Back to the original question.

I don't have any particular opinion or emotion about the turks, but I can say how I see steppe people (I was this close to write factions instead of people, what TW modding can do to your brain :laugh4: ) in general...

Fierce, proud, independant, ruthless but fair, honourable, simple (not in a bad way). Also, not very fond of culture and arts, more concerned with the practical aspects of life...
I would probably find them intimidating, but this come from a 21st century guy imagining a member of the Hunnic horde in front of him :laugh4: ...

I remember a book I read when I was younger, about 15 years old, Lathatatlan Ember, about a greek boy who was a servant of some powerful roman and he ended up going with him when he was chosen to be a part of the delegation to the Huns from the Eastern Empire... I forgot the name of the author, I think he was Hungarian. The boy fell in love with the Hunnic way of life and stayed there till Attilas death. He favoured the simplicity and honesty of the Hunns, compared to hypocrycies and intrigues of the roman life.

[Mete Han]

I remember a book I read when I was younger, about 15 years old, Lathatatlan Ember, about a greek boy who was a servant of some powerful roman and he ended up going with him when he was chosen to be a part of the delegation to the Huns from the Eastern Empire... I forgot the name of the author, I think he was Hungarian. The boy fell in love with the Hunnic way of life and stayed there till Attilas death. He favoured the simplicity and honesty of the Hunns, compared to hypocrycies and intrigues of the roman life.

I shoul take a look at that book if I can find a copy. Thank you my friend.

[KrooK]

I think you ought to read Black Angel and Mikael novels written by Mika Waltari. They are describing Ottoman Empire into quite interesting way.

[Innocentius]

Can't say that I know much about Turks. What I think of when I hear the word Turk is basically this:

Seljuks, Nomads
War against the Byzantines
The Ottoman Empire
Siege(s) of Vienna
Wars against Russia

Of course, as a Swede I've read of Karl XII's stay in the Ottoman Empire and the events in Bender, but that's pretty much it.

[Sarmatian]

I shoul take a look at that book if I can find a copy. Thank you my friend.

I checked on the author - it's Geza Gardonyi.

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is an English or Turkish translation. So unless you can read Hungarian or Serbian, you won't have much use of it...

That's too bad, because the novel deals exactly with what you want to know. How a "civilized" boy finds and try to adapts to a "barbarian" way of life...

[Mete Han]

I think you ought to read Black Angel and Mikael novels written by Mika Waltari. They are describing Ottoman Empire into quite interesting way.

Well, I will surely at least take a look at those books so thanx very much. In an interesting way Turkic people (nomads) and Turks (after they converted to Islam in general) played a consistent role as being "the other" for their neighbours when it came to describing and forming their identities. So even though my book will actually be about nomadic Turkic people (proto or pro) the view of the West about the Ottomans might help. Anyway thanx dude. Ihope I can find them.

[Mete Han]

I checked on the author - it's Geza Gardonyi.

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is an English or Turkish translation. So unless you can read Hungarian or Serbian, you won't have much use of it...

That's too bad, because the novel deals exactly with what you want to know. How a "civilized" boy finds and try to adapts to a "barbarian" way of life...

but thanx anyway... I try finding a copy in English.

[Mete Han]

I checked on the author - it's Geza Gardonyi.

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is an English or Turkish translation. So unless you can read Hungarian or Serbian, you won't have much use of it...

That's too bad, because the novel deals exactly with what you want to know. How a "civilized" boy finds and try to adapts to a "barbarian" way of life...

I just found it!!!!! We have the book in Turkish. ~:cheers:

[Furious Mental]

My subjective opinion of Turks is that, like many countries, they have good cuisine but are too nationalist.

[hellenes]

My subjective opinion of Turks is that, like many countries, they have good cuisine but are too nationalist.

Well living in a country ruled by the generals doesnt leave much room for openmindness...

[Vladimir]

Off the top of my head I'd say lots of arrows.

[Mete Han]

Well living in a country ruled by the generals doesnt leave much room for openmindness...

Merry Xmas my Hellenic Friend. Thank you for posting your opinion. Nowadays we would be fortunate to be ruled by the Generals because right now we are ruled by Radical Islamists who are the puppets of the U.S. How these guys cooperate in some contexts and fight each other in somewhere else is ironic, isn't it? But we will destroy all our internal and external enemies in this life or the next.

By the way do you guys still have the same education system that raises all Greeks for hating Turks. Most of the Turkish people have nothing against Greeks.

[The Wizard]

Whoa, whoa... before this delicious bout of Balkan ethnodrama begins, I'd just like to say: don't waste your time. :bow:

[Mete Han]

Whoa, whoa... before this delicious bout of Balkan ethnodrama begins, I'd just like to say: don't waste your time. :bow:

Well I need that. I have to see the mechanism behind how particular groups of people form opinions about and judge the "Other". The book I am going to write about will nothing to have with Middle Eastern and Balkan people but still different mechanisms might apply to contexts. In short I am trying to read between the lines here. So please start the melodrama. I appreciate every opinion posted here.

[Vladimir]

Merry Xmas my Hellenic Friend. Thank you for posting your opinion. Nowadays we would be fortunate to be ruled by the Generals because right now we are ruled by Radical Islamists who are the puppets of the U.S. How these guys cooperate in some contexts and fight each other in somewhere else is ironic, isn't it? But we will destroy all our internal and external enemies in this life or the next.




Speaking about "the other." I'd really like to see you defend this statement. After all, these radical islamist puppets were so gracious as to allow the 4th Infantry Division to invade Iraq from Turkey, right? :inquisitive: Perhaps you should post your subjective opinion about the Turks.

[Paradox]

Might I ask who the "Balkans" really are? I never knew what it is until after you mentioned it. Are they against Islam? Or do you mean they (the Greeks) are raised to hate Turks and not their religion? Sorry, I'm lost.

[Marshal Murat]

Balkans is a term for Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Yugoslavia, parts of Hungary and Romania.

Well, the Greeks and most Balkan nations hate the Turks because until the 1800s the entire region was under Turkish control, and the Turks (to my knowledge) repressed the Greek/Romanian Orthodox Christian religion. This got alot of Greeks angry, to they eventually rose up against the Turks, with aid from Britain and France.

It's history.

[Paradox]

Ah, I see. Just one of those historical conflicts that are still around today.

[IrishArmenian]

Historically, Turkmen went very far in saving what was the shrinking world of Islam.
Obviously, I'm no fan of some of the deeds done by past rulers of the Ottoman Empire and Anatolia who happened to be of Turkish heritage and nationality, but to believe all Turks would do such things is idiocy.
As a people, they are just like any other people: some good, some bad.
Oddly enough, what was a varied, loose confederation of tribes became one group in the minds of many, only to be re-divided (Turkey, Azerbaijan, Kyrgzstan, Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, etc)

[The Wizard]

I believe in Europe, "Turk" was for a long time the term used for a Muslim living within the Ottoman empire.

Besides that, the whole Balkan drama that continues until today is the product of rabid, uncontrolled and thoughtless nationalism. That's as simple as it is. Just like in Austria-Hungary, national movements clashed with older things, and eventually won out, after which they proceeded to bicker amongst themselves. Just that on the Balkans things have continued simmering, and occasionally exploding.

[Paradox]

I remember reading something very similar to this, in Spain, they came up with a term (which I forgot) of offense to Muslims and even Jews. I'm going to have to look it up as I don't remember it right now. However, I do remember it was another word for "pig". :shrug:

I'm going to have to agree with IrishArmenian, to blame them now from what has happened long ago is wrong.

[Sarmatian]

I believe in Europe, "Turk" was for a long time the term used for a Muslim living within the Ottoman empire.

Besides that, the whole Balkan drama that continues until today is the product of rabid, uncontrolled and thoughtless nationalism. That's as simple as it is. Just like in Austria-Hungary, national movements clashed with older things, and eventually won out, after which they proceeded to bicker amongst themselves. Just that on the Balkans things have continued simmering, and occasionally exploding.

I'm really getting tired of your "hollier then thou" attitude. I was only one post from the hellenes, to which Mete Han respond quite normally, but than you had to post twice, I guess to make sure no one missed, about Balkan "ethnodrama" and to explain everyone your opinion (which is wrong, btw). Actually the entire thread was going quite well, before you started explaining Balkan "ethnodrama", from which point it went in totaly another direction and involved 4-5 new people who weren't involved in the original discussion and who continued going off topic after your "ethnodrama" comments...

So, don't judge people and nations - judge persons, and when you do that, start from yourself.

[Paradox]

Ah, sorry about the off-topicness, and I apologise if I offended anybody here.

[IrishArmenian]

I'm going to have to agree with IrishArmenian, to blame them now from what has happened long ago is wrong.
Indeed, but don't get me wrong-- I've had firsthand experience of much nationalism from the old western neighbors and I do believe in reparation but to think that, if given the power, the Turkish government would re-kill everyone is pretty stupid.
Sadly, there are still some people left in the early 20th century and they are truly the crazies-- a lesson we learn the hard way.
For the most part, I always agreed with Hrant Dink-- except for borders, but that is a discussion not for a later time but not to be brought up on these boards.

[The Wizard]

I'm really getting tired of your "hollier then thou" attitude. I was only one post from the hellenes, to which Mete Han respond quite normally, but than you had to post twice, I guess to make sure no one missed, about Balkan "ethnodrama" and to explain everyone your opinion (which is wrong, btw). Actually the entire thread was going quite well, before you started explaining Balkan "ethnodrama", from which point it went in totaly another direction and involved 4-5 new people who weren't involved in the original discussion and who continued going off topic after your "ethnodrama" comments...

So, don't judge people and nations - judge persons, and when you do that, start from yourself.

Ah, so you believe Mete Han's comments involving such fine übergeneralizations such as "all Greeks hating Turks," vice versa, subjective opinions going both ways, neither of which leaves any room for logically constructed, to be reasonable ones? More generally, you support them, apparently, because you seem to take offense at my characterization of this type of (verbal or not) conflict in this region of the world?

In fact, reading your post, you come off as considering such comments normal. No matter what Mete Han's intentions were typing them up, that's pretty disgusting, when such things become a part of everyday life and you no longer stop and think about the absurdity of it all.

Despite that, apparently you haven't read this whole thread. Rather, you seem to only have read my post containing this term of mine (Balkan ethnodrama). You see, what did you expect of this thread despite this? You think these kinds of opinions, ill-constructed and laden with ignorance, which prolong and deepen the age-old and useless conflicts of the Balkans, serve any purpose but to be shot to pieces by people who are actually using their grey matter?

If this is the purpose of Mete Han's project, then all praise and support belongs to him; if not, then I need to go disconnect the palm of my hand from the front of my face. There is no place in this modern world for the type of thinking that led us into the meatgrinders of the Somme.

[hellenes]

Merry Xmas my Hellenic Friend. Thank you for posting your opinion. Nowadays we would be fortunate to be ruled by the Generals because right now we are ruled by Radical Islamists who are the puppets of the U.S. How these guys cooperate in some contexts and fight each other in somewhere else is ironic, isn't it? But we will destroy all our internal and external enemies in this life or the next.

By the way do you guys still have the same education system that raises all Greeks for hating Turks. Most of the Turkish people have nothing against Greeks.

Well I cant take the position that Turks dont hate the Urums (Romans-Byzantines-Greeks) lightly....
When you have the ultra right nationalistic paramilitary organization Boz Gurts in your nominal parliament and ultra right extremist ideas dominating your political landscape....I dont even add your sad idolising and personal cult of Mustafa Kemal in a very scary way resembling Hitler/Stalin's personal cult...
Its so bizzare and disturbing to see how Kemal is higher than Allah in Turkey...

[Mete Han]

Well I cant take the position that Turks dont hate the Urums (Romans-Byzantines-Greeks) lightly....
When you have the ultra right nationalistic paramilitary organization Boz Gurts in your nominal parliament and ultra right extremist ideas dominating your political landscape....I dont even add your sad idolising and personal cult of Mustafa Kemal in a very scary way resembling Hitler/Stalin's personal cult...
Its so bizzare and disturbing to see how Kemal is higher than Allah in Turkey...

Okay now I see that you have some kind of prejudice against Turkey and Turkish people which is totally normal. Is this because you fear that Turkish paramilitary groups might attack Greece some day? This is exactly the point in your psychology that I would like to grasp and understand. Do Greeks hate or have prejudice against Turks because they fear Turks might attack one day?

[Mete Han]

Speaking about "the other." I'd really like to see you defend this statement. After all, these radical islamist puppets were so gracious as to allow the 4th Infantry Division to invade Iraq from Turkey, right? :inquisitive: Perhaps you should post your subjective opinion about the Turks.

I am sorry Vlad. I couldn't understand your point. Do you mean that these guys cannot be radical Islamists since they let US invade Iraq through Turkey? Do you not know other radical Islamists such as Saudi Arabia are US puppets (and even once Al Quaida were). The thing is, the US is supporting radical islamists in the region in order to undermine the order in the region so that they can insewrt more power on the weak governments. Unfortunately with money coming from Saudi Arabia who are the puppets of the US. the Islamists in Turkey literally buy poor people's votes and in return they obey the US. However, ironically, in the beginning of the Iraq invasion the Islamist government could not grant the right for the US troops to invade Iraq through Turkey and they were very much critised by the US. Nobody trusted the Islamist government those days because of their organic ties with the US and Saudi Arabia and other state institutions left the government alone in this decision so the right was not granted by then. So do not make the mistake to think that all radical Islmaists are anti US in middle east. Actually they were all founded by the US in order to counter the pro communist movement in the region and still today they have organic ties with the US. Politics in the Middle East is quite confusing but the thing is you have to look at what the leaders are doing in order to understand what the radical Islamists are, not what mere citizens think.

Did I miss the question?

[Mete Han]

For the most part, I always agreed with Hrant Dink-- except for borders, but that is a discussion not for a later time but not to be brought up on these boards.

On what parts do you disagree with Dink, can you elaborate on that? All most everyone in Turkey condemned the murder and this outrageous act did many harms to the reputation of Turkey and actually this was the motivation behind the murder imho. Anyway, still Armenians and Turks living in nowadays in Turkey hold no grudges against each other. I have several Armenian friends in Istanbul. The way the Armenian diaspora and Armenia use the historical problems will never harm the relationship.

[hellenes]

On what parts do you disagree with Dink, can you elaborate on that? All most everyone in Turkey condemned the murder and this outrageous act did many harms to the reputation of Turkey and actually this was the motivation behind the murder imho. Anyway, still Armenians and Turks living in nowadays in Turkey hold no grudges against each other. I have several Armenian friends in Istanbul. The way the Armenian diaspora and Armenia use the historical problems will never harm the relationship.

What about the yenicharised "adopted" daughter of the dohme Mustafa Kemal? That the murdered by the Kemalist regime of generals Dink revealed that she was of armenian decent yenicharised in 1915...?
Its a very funny image seeing a transvestite "democracy" in Turkey which is practically a military junta dressed as democracy...

[Mete Han]

What about the yenicharised "adopted" daughter of the dohme Mustafa Kemal? That the murdered by the Kemalist regime of generals Dink revealed that she was of armenian decent yenicharised in 1915...?
Its a very funny image seeing a transvestite "democracy" in Turkey which is practically a military junta dressed as democracy...

First of all what does dohme mean? Secondly are you trying to say that Ataturk's adopted daughter was murdered because she was of Armenian descent. Thirdly there is no word in English and Turkish called yenicharished, what do you mean by that?

Lastly, you have been showing your hatred about Turks in every post and every time I asked you to analyze the reason of your hatred. Please stop posting jibrish nonsense. If you do not want to help me with my book then please don't post again in this thread. You sound pathetic every time you insult Turkey. It is time you accepted your defeats at Manzikert, Myriokephalon, Constaninople and almost every time we fought you. The foundations of the Turkish state is two millenia old. Just get over it.

Plus, you should take a look at your own corrupt regime. Abdullah Ocalan, the leader of PKK (a terrorist organization as both EU and US agrees) has photos taken with Greek generals. Also you guys did not hand him over to Turkey when he was residing in Greece. So you support baby killers and terrorists and your regime is quite corrupt. :daisy:

[hellenes]

First of all what does dohme mean? Secondly are you trying to say that Ataturk's adopted daughter was murdered because she was of Armenian descent. Thirdly there is no word in English and Turkish called yenicharished, what do you mean by that?

Lastly, you have been showing your hatred about Turks in every post and every time I asked you to analyze the reason of your hatred. Please stop posting jibrish nonsense. If you do not want to help me with my book then please don't post again in this thread. You sound pathetic every time you insult Turkey. It is time you accepted your defeats at Manzikert, Myriokephalon, Constaninople and almost every time we fought you. The foundations of the Turkish state is two millenia old. Just get over it.

Plus, you should take a look at your own corrupt regime. Abdullah Ocalan, the leader of PKK (a terrorist organization as both EU and US agrees) has photos taken with Greek generals. Also you guys did not hand him over to Turkey when he was residing in Greece. So you support baby killers and terrorists and your regime is quite corrupt. :daisy:

No the murdered Dink revealed the fact that Kemal's ADOPTED daughter was taken from her Armenian family by force during the genocide...
Also please spare me your brainwashed nazi like rethorics...the day that you get rid of that personality cult worshipping dohme (a turkish jew: google it) Kemal like god and having his picture everywhere same way as Hitler did in Germany and Stalin in USSR, that day Ill consider you as free thinking and truly democratic state...
Also its so funny speaking of the horde when Timurleng put the white dog (Bayazit) in prison and slaughtered his central asian people... Turks have same to do with mongols as Khazaks, Uzbeks and even Chinese...
:daisy:

[AntiochusIII]

Gentlemen!

If we are to dismiss Baba Ga'on's warning about Balkan ethnodrama as unnecessary, then please do refrain from behavior that vindicates it.

Thank you; that is all.

:bow:

[KrooK]

Sorry Greek friend but youare talking :daisy:. Maybe should MeteHan looks into Greek history. For example colonels regime or civil war after world war 2.
You are having something to Turks and to portraits of Kemal the Great but have you even seen what he have done. From weak, semi feudal country he turned Turkey into one of the stronges countries on Middle East -strong enough to defeat its indepence (who like who but you should know - Kemal won war with Greece).
Anyway comparing Kemal to Stalin or Hitler shows your lack of criticism. Autoritarism before ww2 was domitating almost everywhere into Europe (generally connected with nationalism). Greece was not an exeption - if Italy did not attack you, Greece would join Axis rather than Allies.
Todays Turkey is democracy IMO. Democracy is when people have freedom of speech. I think Turks have freedom of speech. And yes - looks like there is few authoritarism into turkish democracy but..... democracy in danger always need authoritarism. Turkey is not safe Greece - far from enemies. Turkey must have been strong country able to fast reaction. Especially when they had Saddam as a neighbour.

All in all - please just explain your opinion about Turks, not accuse Turks about everything. And you MeteHan - you can always write something about Greeks into your book.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Gentlemen,

To reinforce AntiochusIII's plea - this is not the stuff of the Monastery.

Stop it or take it to the Backroom please.

[CBR]

Well I guess the friendly xmas days are over and a new year of pathetic drivel is upon us. :thumbsdown:

I'll just the easy way out and send this to the Backroom.


CBR

[Banquo's Ghost]

Well I guess the friendly xmas days are over and a new year of pathetic drivel is upon us. :thumbsdown:

I'll just the easy way out and send this to the Backroom.

Thank you. :bow:

Now this thread is here, let me lay down the law: Personal attacks, bad language and angry nationalism will result in the usual sanctions.

The OP made a reasonable request. Please respect that. It s perfectly possible to discuss differing national perspectives without insulting each other.

Remember: This is no longer the Monastery. Now you're mine. :evil:

[Mete Han]

Dear Friends,

Before posting such a topic I had some concerns for creating trouble because the topic really touches some delicate subjects. Maybe this is time we deleted this thread altoghether. For me, maybe I should look for other places and media for doing my little research. I feel sorry though. I thought we could keep the discussions at a civilized level. I was open to welcome the insults as long as attendants explained the reasons behind their opinions which is actually the thing I need: socio-psychological reasonings and formations. However it seems that the hatred for the "Other" can reach such outrageous levels that even some haters cannot explain why they hate. So if the moderators choose to remove the topic I would respect this. I am really sorry.

[Fragony]

Dear Friends,

Before posting such a topic I had some concerns for creating trouble because the topic really touches some delicate subjects. Maybe this is time we deleted this thread altoghether. For me, maybe I should look for other places and media for doing my little research. I feel sorry though. I thought we could keep the discussions at a civilized level. I was open to welcome the insults as long as attendants explained the reasons behind their opinions which is actually the thing I need: socio-psychological reasonings and formations. However it seems that the hatred for the "Other" can reach such outrageous levels that even some haters cannot explain why they hate. So if the moderators choose to remove the topic I would respect this. I am really sorry.

Good luck finding a more civilised place on the internet. Don't get me wrong nobody dislikes turks as much as me, don't be such a wuss ~;)

[Mete Han]

Good luck finding a more civilised place on the internet. Don't get me wrong nobody dislikes turks as much as me, don't be such a wuss ~;)

okay just explain why you hate so much and let's get back on track

[Fragony]

okay just explain why you hate so much and let's get back on track

I was just kidding mia muca, don't be so sensitive. Hate that.

[Viking]

I have a question slightly on and slightly off topic:

is the term 'gavur' negative or neutral? I only know that it means non-turk or something along those lines.

[Prince Cobra]

The thing is I have been writing this historical novel about a Turkish khan and I need some opinions concerning Turks from a variety of people. I am having some constipation in emulating empathy for understanding what other people thought about the Turks in like 200 AD's. Still your thoughts about mongols and Turks even after they (us) converted to Islam might light some spark. If you guys (European and Middle Eastern preferably) can list your negative and positive opinions about Turks it would be very helpful. Any but any sincere opinion, emotion or belief would be most welcome?

It's been ages I last posted something different than samurais and Byzantine stuffs. :dizzy2:

Hm, to tell you the truth I preferred it in the Monastery... I think it will go too offtopic.

By the way, I read several posts above and I remembered one particular thread I posted almost year ago. It went the same in the middle of nowhere, only arguing... Anyway, it's not the time for very very long posts.

On the Balkan nationalism... (to those who are not very familiar with it) :stars: It hurts. Bulgaria lost at least one war (Second Balkan) in a very stupid way because of her own big ambitions and overconfidence (hm, not that the others were modest, but you certainly can not afford be too maximalistic when situated in the center). But it can also be funny: like fighting for two sqaure kilometres or be tragic (look Yugoslavia). We are very wierd people. Balkans. :stars:which of course is not an obstacle to be a little patriot (not more than enough):p

Back on topic: I certainly can not tell you much on the Turks in 200 AD. I also doubt you will get so much info on it, too. There is just not enough records.
They were certainly nomadic tribes. Later on, there was a huge Turkish khaganate which slowly but surely was falling apart (but I think it's after 200AD). Yet I can tell you that around VIII Century the Khaganate was ally of Byzantium (no, I do not confuse it with the Khazars, which were also allies of the Empire). In Xth century the Turkish tribes of Kharahanids accepted the Islam and then become very important part of the Islamic world. They were the main source of ghulams, elite Islamic warriors and were used by the local Muslim Persian and Arabian dynasties. Later, this Turkish hegemony gave the chance of Togrul beg to unite the area between Afganistan and Minor Asia under his rule. Then the Manzikert happened and I think the Turks become well known.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

As a European in 200AD I think the word would be "irrelevant." Like Watchman said, Steppe Nomads still mostly on the Steppe. Bear in mind that in 200AD "Turkey" was all part of the Roman Empire.

[HoreTore]

Remember: This is no longer the Monastery. Now you're mine. :evil:

You still accept bribes, right?

[Vladimir]

I was just kidding mia muca, don't be so sensitive. Hate that.

Explain why you hate. :laugh4:

[Mete Han]

Thank the heavens for I am back on dry land. Finally I returned from my trip and can play TW. In order to get back on track let me answer some points.

First of all it is true that all the people living in Turkey are not of central asian descent. My estimates depending on my interviews shows that at 40 to 50 per cent Turkish people can easily claim that they have Central Asian Turkic ties. Nowadays even the most crooked scientists who are paid by the anti_Turkish front claim that genetically about 15 per cent of people living in Turkey have direct genetical ties with Central Asian people (their aim is to divide Turkey and start a war based on ethnicity). So that means with the most pesimistic estimates there are 0.15*72.6million= 10.89 million genetically central asian people living in Turkey and that number is equal to the population of some neighbours of Turkey.

The answer to the question whether I look like a mongoloid person or not is irrelevant but still yes I look like a mongoloid person and for this reson I have been always teased by my friends who called me Chinese or Japanese and yet Turcoman blood runs in my veins. Most of the people ask me whether I am Kazak or Tatar but I am neither but still very much Turkish.

The most important thing about the formation of the Turkic nationality from ancient times up until now that it was never done on the basis of race (sometimes this has been in advantage of Turkic states and sometimes in disadvantage). The history of the formation of Turkish nationality goes back to the ancient Xiougnu (Asian Huns). The seeds of this was sown when Tumen (Teoman) and his son Motun (Mete Han, who is the ancient Oguz Han of Turkic legends) united most of the nomad tribes under one banner around 200 bc. However It was Gokturks who first recorded the name Turk. Yet again the Turkic nationality was rather formed on the basis of language and culture. Of course this nationality term I am using here does not imply the same meaning when used to describe the unity among ancient Turkic tribes. Since these nomad tribes lived in a very wide geography ethnically or racially they ranged from mongoloid to white race (arian). What brought this clans or tribes toghether was the common roots of languages they used and their culture, nomadic life style. Therefore it is quite possible for a Turkish person to be really Turkic and not look like a mongoloid person. But there are people like me who look like mongoloid.

So back to Mustafa Kemal's ethinc identity. It has been argued by some people in Turkey (and abroad obviously) that Ataturk is of Jewish descent. Their reasoning is that since one cannot prove to which ethnicity Ataturk belongs to then he must be of Jewish descent. Let us assume that he was of Jewish descent for one moment, so what is the big deal? He still saved Turkey and founded the only secular state where the majority of the population is Muslim who can make rational decisions based on facts. Does being Jewish make you less of a hero?
Fortunately modern Turkish nationalism is not (again) based on ethnicity.

The thing is some eneimes of Turkey need to portray her as the evil in order to form their own unity. Turkey supplies them with the "Other" in order for them to formulate their own identity around it. If you take Turkey out of the equation and put a Christian state in her place then some of her enemies will easily dissolve and become assimilated. It seems as though we are the necessary evil.

Turkey never defined citizenship on race as her predecessors and will never do so. As long as a person coming from any background can say they are Turkish then they are accepted as Turkish. Except for some mongoloids who are called Chinese, just kidding... :bow:

[KukriKhan]

...the only secular state where the majority of the population is Muslim who can make rational decisions based on facts...

I see, I think. Please let me test my understanding.

If I, of western European-christian and North American-animist heritage, learn the Turk language and culture, move to Istanbul and live among Turks, as though I were a Turk - if I then say "I am a Turk.", am I a Turk, as far as Turks are concerned?

[Mete Han]

I see, I think. Please let me test my understanding.

If I, of western European-christian and North American-animist heritage, learn the Turk language and culture, move to Istanbul and live among Turks, as though I were a Turk - if I then say "I am a Turk.", am I a Turk, as far as Turks are concerned?

Yes, like being an American. The American nation does not rely on ethnicity as well but still Americans are a nation, right? Actually look at France, they have got so many different ethinicities living together and they are all called French. Most of the modern constitutions describe their nationalities on the basis of citizenship.

[KrooK]

Mete don't forget about Bizantine heritage. Conquer of Empire changed Turks a lot. Same like milions of slaves captured into Central Europe.

[Mete Han]

Mete don't forget about Bizantine heritage. Conquer of Empire changed Turks a lot. Same like milions of slaves captured into Central Europe.

Of course...

[KukriKhan]

Yes, like being an American. The American nation does not rely on ethnicity as well but still Americans are a nation, right? Actually look at France, they have got so many different ethinicities living together and they are all called French. Most of the modern constitutions describe their nationalities on the basis of citizenship.

Very well. I understood correctly. Thanks. :bow:

[master of the puppets]

Byzantine citizen: Turks? Bah! they are barbaric upstarts, filthy flea ridden goat ******* from the hills in my opinion.
course i've never actually seen one. we don't like them in the city and all, might be hunting for our secrets or trying to spread their mohammed filth!

Old Crusader knight: Turks?, hmm turks, turks, turks. Oh AYE! those wily bastards from the hills. yeah i've fought them, gave us quite a rash of **** on the way to the holy land they did. he he, but once you corraled there little ponies so they can't run away you get a good charge in *gruff laughter*. nothin quite like the look on a barbarian's face when hes stuck between a wall of sheer rock and a grand old norman cavalry charge. HA!

No offense meant to anyone of course, he asked for character reactions, i gave him some.