Spartiatai Hoplitai

[Kολοσσός]

Is there a realistic reconstruction of the clothing, armor and kit those soldiers had or is it mostly imagination on the part of the artists? I've seen so many different renditions and they're very inconsistent.

Perhaps there are written records by Greek historians describing their gear, uniform and colors?

[Intranetusa]

Is there a realistic reconstruction of the clothing, armor and kit those soldiers had or is it mostly imagination on the part of the artists? I've seen so many different renditions and they're very inconsistent.

Perhaps there are written records by Greek historians describing their gear, uniform and colors?

What are you comparing it to?

Spartans/Greeks used different equipment during different time periods...

[russia almighty]

I think he could be referring to how RTR for example has Spartan's half naked for the most part .

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Is there a realistic reconstruction of the clothing, armor and kit those soldiers had or is it mostly imagination on the part of the artists? I've seen so many different renditions and they're very inconsistent.

Perhaps there are written records by Greek historians describing their gear, uniform and colors?

This is one of the most difficult questions for historians to answer, or rather it's impossible.

The Spartan military included Helots and other non-Spartiates including a corps of pikemen at one point. The Spartiates themselves were those Spartan citizens able to afford the Agoge and pay their mess bills. They always fought as traditional hoplites with the Aspis shield and Dory spear. Beyond that their equipment varried.

Some Spartans were relatively poor and their gear would reflect this, others like the kings would have been fairly flashy by EB's period. Having said that luxury was traditionally frowned upon, a ragged cloak was the sign of a true Spartan.

[keravnos]

Judge for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sellasia

[antisocialmunky]

I'm surprised no one's posted the pimped out merc spartan skin.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We *all* do agree that there is no way we can know for sure what third century spartans looked like. That is good. There is a range of possibilities, and our version is on the higher end of the range for a few different reasons. Some other versions of the spartans at about this same time are on the other end. I can't say that all of our details are right, since most of our information does come from earlier periods (for the sparties). But some things we do know about them that greatly affected our view of the unit was that (in our immediate - very immediate - time period) they fought with the king of sparta, and the served as mercenaries from Sicily and Italy and Greece to Crete and probably in much more distant places on occasion too. They used their money to support their families back home, as the helot business had closed up shop by this point in time. Would the highest class of Spartans at this time, mercenaries who were serving alongside their king in distant places, not have serious armor while campaigning? Plus this is the third century, not the fifth, so some changes in armor and helmets and such would be obvious. Sparta at this time had just begun to permit the minting of coins and had a reputation acquired with our starting king of allowing more luxuries than at any previous period.

Also, how many times do you see these guys in the game? These are guys who spend most of their time as mercenaries (they are doing it in 272 alongside Areus on Crete) or fighting for Sparta. They can only be created in one province, by one faction, at their highest MIC level, and they cost a lot to field, and they have 100 men less than even the simplest pike unit - in other words they are not some sort of crazy elite unit. Last time this came up I just used one unit of decent pike to test them (pezhetairoi - nothing special) on flat terrain with no bonuses or upgrades and shredded a unit of them (I lost 13 men, they lost all). And the pez were 50% cheaper to recruit. Then to further it, I tried this out and defeated them with a single unit of levy phalanx (the crappiest pike unit in the game) on a flat battlefield (just barely won it though). They stink actually. I doubt anyone who has ever played outside of Makedonian or Epeirote factions have ever fought against the unit on a battlefield even - that's how rare they are in the game usually.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Thats all true, from personal experience I cen tell you they are a pain when properly supported but a unit alone isn't a lot of good.

Now, a Spartan phalanx, on level ground, in guard mode, is a bit different but it will still loose because the line will be so dam short.

[konny]

Now, a Spartan phalanx, on level ground, in guard mode, is a bit different but it will still loose because the line will be so dam short.

That's a problem of the AI's abuse of the Hoplites as an armed mob. Hoplites are fine to fight Makedonian phalanx if deployed proper and Spartiates are certainly the best Hoplites. But the AI always let them charge in open order, even against phalanx. Even with a wild mixture of Classicals, Peltastai, Equites Consulares and Hastati I had been able to defeat a Greek army that had two of those Spartiates in their ranks.

[pezhetairoi]

But then again, let's face it, with such a wild mixture you already have good enough troops to even defeat an army with three gaesatae in their ranks.

I find the Spartiatai impressive, but as you say, they are not meant for one on ones, though you can definitely rely on them to desperately hold an entire section of line for you against all comers if you had to, if you are prepared to lose quite a few of them. Something like my Arjos singlehandedly holding off an outflanking column of triple-silver Jugunthiz. They started with 121, they ended with 65. But they routed one of the Jugunthiz and held off the other two till help arrived, so.

[antisocialmunky]

The Spartiatai maybe good at last stands, but young family members are better as KH FMs seem nigh impossible to kill off and grow back with lots of chevrons and have that handy extra point of armour to boot.

[Maksimus]

There is one misfortune in 'engine' to this - as the hoplites are mostly much much weaker in one open battle (even on VH sett.)..
The AI si exploiting autocalculations on phalanx vice versa hoplites in one massive scale!

So In Greece - Makedonia almost always looses from KH after AI hoplites win on atocalc. as a rule against phalanx!? So even when Makedonia has 30-50% of phalanx in the army - she looses against the same numbers of KH that have no phalanx at all :gah:

I have tested it and I found the same solution as one that will (hopefully) be in overwhelming use for Horse Archer's in EB as a solution to 'never win in autocalculations' prob when AI plays. - I set the Hit Point's of phalanx from

1, 0 to (from) 1, 1 (and 1,2 - 1,3 - 1,4) for phalanx in the EDU

That has no effect on open battle but has on the AI autocalc. - so the full stack's of Phalanx Epeiros has in Italy wont 'fade away' that fast :wall:

The same goes for Makedonia at Athenai.. The phalanx armies will just hold their ground longer .. It is wonderfull - it work's very nice :san_wink:

[Perturabo]

Not a great fan of the Spartan Hoplites to be honest. No offence to anyone, but they are ok in flanking and city fighting, but a phalanx will win any time head to head, and in my humble opinion the Classical Hoplites look better and are better value for money.

The new KH bodyguard units on the other hand, well :2thumbsup: Brilliant looking and performing units, though very similar in use to the Spartans as one would expect.

[Senatus Populusque Romanus]

Spartans used their individual symbols on their equipment.

For example, they put their family-symbol or individual-symbol on their shields and other equipment.

However, other Greek citi-states used pretty unified equipment.:2thumbsup:

[Pharnakes]

So custom simybols on the shields for eb2, then?

[Admetos]

I think that you have got your facts slightly muddled up Commilitone. I think it's the Spartans who were uniform and the other city-states weren't.

[Geoffrey S]

Looking forward to seeing a range of Spartans in the units of EB2!

[Moosemanmoo]

Anything but massive leather hotpants

[antisocialmunky]

Spartans used their individual symbols on their equipment.

For example, they put their family-symbol or individual-symbol on their shields and other equipment.

However, other Greek citi-states used pretty unified equipment.:2thumbsup:

I thought most people carried a mishmash of stuff since the infantry man bought his own stuff unless they were someone's retainers. Maybe this was different in the 272 days and someone will probably show up and say we're both wrong.


Anything but massive leather hotpants

I wouldn't mind a greater female EBer: male EBer ratio.:yes:

[TWFanatic]

I think that you have got your facts slightly muddled up Commilitone. I think it's the Spartans who were uniform and the other city-states weren't.
Yes. The Spartans were issued standard equipment by the state, hoplites from other polis had to buy their own.

My question is: why don't have a plume?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't believe that Spartans were issued their equipment by the state, providing it was part of the qualification for being Spartiate. The Helots were issued decent fighting gear with the Lambda on though. Other Polies issued some gear at different times depending on the state treasury and the number of men needed in the field. It was probably nevewr standard practice in the South and there's a big question mark over how much was issued to Makedones Phalangites.

[CirdanDharix]

The Spartans were required to have the lambda on their shield. IIRC they actually weren't the first to insist their hoplites carried a national symbol instead of their personal coat of arms, but they were the first major power to do so and the others followed suit.

[Menander of India]

Spartan Homioi (the 'real' Spartans) that formed the core of the Lakedaimonian army were separated in 'regiments' called mores which took their names from the region of Lakedaimon that each Spartan came from. So, there was the mora of Amyklai etc... Each mora had a symbol (bulls,scorpions etc) that ,most probably, appeared on the shields of all the homioi belonging to it.
However, towards the end of the Pelloponesian War it seems that most Greek city states changed the personal emblems on the shields for the first letter of their city in order to achieve uniformity. The Spartans did that for sure and replaced the emblems of the mores with the L (Λ) for Lakedaimon. By the 4th century BC the 'Λ' had replaced for sure all the other shield emblems.

[pezhetairoi]

So in the time of Thermopylae, Leonidas and Co would not have had a standard symbol on their shield?

[Menander of India]

Yes... The emblem would depend on the mora that each warrior belonged. As for the Spartan king, iirc, he would bear a sun symbol on his shield.

[keravnos]

Actually the "Λ" sign is thought to have been used for the first time in the Peloponnesian war. 431-404 BCE.

[Menander of India]

Around that timeframe for sure. Along with most of the other city-states. National symbols such as 'Λ' for Lakedaimonians, 'A' for Athens etc were becoming the latest trend of Greek warfare.

[konny]

Actually the "Λ" sign is thought to have been used for the first time in the Peloponnesian war. 431-404 BCE.

Makes sense in a civil war in which also a lot of mercenaries fought that were neither part of the phalanx nor could be expected to know all the traditional individual signs of their side.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Civil War is very much the wrong term, the "Peace" after the Persian wars was the exception rather than the norm. The problem was funds and a falling level of individual wealth. At that point states started supplying some of the more costly equipment for their soldiers.

Having said that, Dorians fighting Dorians, Acheans fighting Acheans etc. did cause a fair bit of chaos at various points.

[konny]

Civil War is very much the wrong term, the "Peace" after the Persian wars was the exception rather than the norm.

Yes, I should had placed Civil War in "". Certainly the combatants were not part of the same political organization, such as a state.

[pseudocaesar]

With the help of Keravnos (EB team member), well actually what am i thinking..with the help of my ass. Keravnos has totally researched and created Roma Surrectums entire Spartan unit roster, and Tone and Antiochus Epiphanes have modelled and skinned the units. Just you wait, they are as historically accurate as anyone in EB could hope...and they look insanely good.

Sorry for the shameless advertising, i have to stop it. ahaha. I just love RS, I do enjoy EB aswell..they are just two different games in my view.

[Admetos]

:furious3: We get tortured by the EB team, and now we get tortured by the RS team... :wall:

[antisocialmunky]

With the help of Keravnos (EB team member), well actually what am i thinking..with the help of my ass. Keravnos has totally researched and created Roma Surrectums entire Spartan unit roster, and Tone and Antiochus Epiphanes have modelled and skinned the units. Just you wait, they are as historically accurate as anyone in EB could hope...and they look insanely good.

Sorry for the shameless advertising, i have to stop it. ahaha. I just love RS, I do enjoy EB aswell..they are just two different games in my view.

Aren't you in the wrong sub forum? :laugh4:

[keravnos]

With the help of Keravnos (EB team member), well actually what am i thinking..with the help of my ass. Keravnos has totally researched and created Roma Surrectums entire Spartan unit roster, and Tone and Antiochus Epiphanes have modelled and skinned the units. Just you wait, they are as historically accurate as anyone in EB could hope...and they look insanely good.

Sorry for the shameless advertising, i have to stop it. ahaha. I just love RS, I do enjoy EB aswell..they are just two different games in my view.

Indeed I am. EB has no spartan faction, as it is included in the Chremonidean leage. At the time EB starts of it was. In fact if Chremonidean league could beat the Makedonians, I think Sparta would have stayed with the league as it would have proven the only way for a city state to co-exist among others such like it.

In RS the timeline starts at 216 BCE. In that time Sparta did exist as an autonomous state. Mauled after the destructive loss at Sellassia at 222
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sellasia
Sparta was a shadow of its former self. Still that shadow was far from beaten. My research is based on Greek publications which include the latest research on Sparta, archaeological and historical. I don't claim to KNOW what the Spartans of the time would have looked like, but on the best estimate we could have, as well as some choices the RS team has made.

In due time you will see for yourselves. You may like it or you may hate it. I just posted to confirm that I am a member of RS as well and that I did help concept the Spartan faction.

[CirdanDharix]

Civil War is very much the wrong term, the "Peace" after the Persian wars was the exception rather than the norm. The problem was funds and a falling level of individual wealth. At that point states started supplying some of the more costly equipment for their soldiers.

Having said that, Dorians fighting Dorians, Acheans fighting Acheans etc. did cause a fair bit of chaos at various points.
More chaos was actually caused by Dorians fighting alongside Ionians, than by Dorians fighting Dorians. There are examples from the Peloponnesian War of Messenians using their mastery of the Dorian language to trick Spartans and other Dorians, but chaos describes best what happened during the Athenian night attack on Epipolae: when the Athenians heard the Corcyreans and their other other Dorian allies singing Dorian paeans, they mistook them for the enemy...