View Full Version : Creative Assembly longjohn, ECS or Target, why haven\'t you included Crusades for the Dan
Now I'm a Dane... No wonder since I ask this.
Well, I'm sorry to tell you that your are historically incorrect in not including the Danes as being possible for Crusades.
We actually got our present flag (white cross on red background, the opposite of the English), the oldest serving national flag, during a Crusade.
Where did it go? I'll tell you.
It went to Estonia (Livonia) and it succeded. There the king (but mostly Danish traders) helped a certain town prosper. Which one? Tallin, the current capital of Estonia.
Lastly, you have even included Livonia as a part of the Danish kingdom in Late period (fits well enough as the Crusade went out in the 1220's)... So I must say I was VERY surprised to see it was not possible for me to launch a Crusade.
And I can't possibly think it has something to do with balance, as the Danes are pressed for land in the early game and a Crusade could help that by getting land in the Pagan east.
The same is true about the Polish.
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You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Arkatreides
09-11-2002, 21:35
Kraxis, I sympathise with you. However, this is something that is very easy to mod. Just allow chapter houses and crusades to be built. Then pick a crusading unit (I am not sure which one is the most suited here, probably Templar Knights) and activate it for the Danes as well.
Yes, I know.
I got a great mod from Wart where all Catholics can Crusade.
Danish and Polish with Teutonics.
Papacy with any type.
Sicilians and Hungarians with Hospitallers.
Burgundians with Templars.
The Aragonese are not included... can they already Crusade?
But I'm not so interested in using it as I have to swap files when ever I go online.
So I hope this would be included in the patch.
Lastly, I simply wanted to see CA's reason why not to include Crusades for these factions, the Danes in particular as I know we had at least one and a half Crusades (the first was against the Estionians as well, but was hardly more than a very strong raid, though it converted people).
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You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
SFC Tako
09-11-2002, 21:51
Hey danish-dude!
I know what you mean, but sometimes life isn't fair...and that just makes playin' the danes a whole lot more interesting. Yeah, like you play the angry underdog fightin' it out with all the major powers Holger Danske-style! Too bad you can't play as Sweden, but Sweden only existed on paper during those days. In reality it was just a total mess with small time crocks (barons and shit) cutthroating eachother. I've only played as the russians so far (loads of fun) but I think I'll play as danes next.
the Aragonese can already crusade. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
and yes, Wart's mod is good.
GAAAHHH!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
A non-playable faction can Crusade... Gaaahhh!
Beginning to sound like Vanya.
SFC, I can hardly think of it as being more interesting when one of the most interesting and fun (for me) aspects has been left out. It actually drops the interest level a good deal for me. Besides that is the historical part which is incorrect.
So there is actually no reason as to why the Danes should not have Crusades possible.
They would still very much be the underdogs. Crusades I have found is more fun and eyecandy than actually efficient. But for the Danes and Polish I think it actually could be very helpful.
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You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
SFC Tako
09-11-2002, 22:09
I'm getting intrigued by this Crusadin' talk. I've only played as russians so far, byt oh what fun I had launching terror raids from armenia onto the arabs every now and then. I knew I couldn't stay for too long on their turf (them a-holes launched mighty Jihads on me), but everytime I took Syria I totally demolished everything and went back home to the relative safety of Armenia (easy to defend)...and then I came back 20-30 years later hah hah hah.
They are fun, but not overly great.
You get to play with Fanatics (Peasants with a vengeance, great charge), Order units (generally better than most early units) and some Islamic units for Jihads, haven't tried them yet.
A Jihad or Crusade can look very impressive but don't fear them too much.
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You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 09-11-2002).]
*Whistle* Need answeeeerrrsss. Please. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
dagdriver
09-12-2002, 13:54
Kraxis, how do I get my claws on that mod?
I would VERY much like to crusade with the Danes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Arkatreides
09-12-2002, 13:54
I think it is in the download section at the org.
Or I could send it to you... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
But sadly it forces you to swap files whenever you go online. So I don't use it, not anymore.
I'm waiting and hoping for the patch to include at least the Danes as being able to Crusade, hopefully also the Poles.
Crusading is great fun.
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You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Come on...
Would it not balance the Strategic game for all the Catholics??? I think so.
It is a nuisance to have German Crusades siphon away your troops without you being able to do it back. And neither the Danes nor the Poles have the initial strength to cope with this. They are at a disadvantage.
And make sure to read my sig.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Arkatreides
09-13-2002, 16:09
hmm ... I haven't really got anything constructive to add, but I support the issue ... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/cool.gif
... and of course I have to reply everywhere where Kraxis does ... are we the only two people on in the mornings? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
It seems so. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I will keep bumping this, until either I get an answer ("this is why we..." or "It will be included in the patch.") or the thread gets deleted.
Ark, can you bump it for me over the weekend I can't get online from in a few hours.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Captain Fishpants
09-13-2002, 17:25
I seem to remember that there were long discussions as to who should and should not launch Crusades (big "C") in the game, as opposed to allowing everyone who ever ran up a banner and said they were crusading (small "c") to do it. The Normans, for example, called their invasion of England a "crusade", but that seems to have been to mostly drum up support. The French did the same when they invaded to oust the excommunicated King John. But were these Crusades from a MTW gameplay point of view? Probably not.
While Danes and Poles did take part in Crusades from time to time, they weren't really a significant "tool of statecraft" for those countries IMHO. It also helps makes the Danes play a little differently from the usual run of Catholic powers in the game, and that has to be more interesting than having all the factions with pretty much identical options.
MikeB ~ CA
Nightweb
09-13-2002, 18:05
There is a thread about this over on totalwar.com's board.
http://pub24.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm5.showMessageRange?topicID=2138.topic&start=21&stop=29
Just so you know it. In that thread I'm Tarrak.
Fishpants, I know the Normans called it a Crusade when they went to England, but it was never sanctioned. I know that at least one Danish Crusade was sanctioned by the Pope as a Crusade. Damn, why have the Aragonese have Crusades when they never launched a sanctioned Crusade??? They should be in the group you call "who ever ran up a banner and said they were crusading"...
See my point?
Further, while it does make the Danish and Polish destinct, it doesn't do that in a positive way. It isn't a destinction that makes people go "Hey great, I think I'll try the Danish because they are different." It simply makes them less fun, and that is my main gripe. Fun is the all-important issue here.
When everything else is equal, and it is (Aragon = no Crusades, Denmark = Crusades in history), then I think one has to consider the fun. And the Danes lack this aspect which I find highly amusing.
They haven't even got the Orthodox anti-Crusade capability... As if they weren't weak enough.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
eat cold steel
09-13-2002, 19:15
Well there you go, answer from our historian. Convince him and crusade will go in officially, otherwise it's not that hard to get a mod to allow it.
I like it the way it is - those northern countries, while technically catholic, were still highly influenced by the pagan religions of scandanavia, etc.
They never launched crusades anyway.
If it is such a gameplay issue you can mod it yourself. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Arkatreides
09-13-2002, 19:35
Well Kraxis, you seem to have got your official reply ... so persistent bumping DOES work http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
hmm ... guess what I will be doing with my valour thread http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Thank you both for posting, apparently I missed the CA the first time, I guess I have gotten too used to seeing that CA shield. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
JRock, go and tell the thousands of butchered Wenders and Estonians that there was no Crusade up there killing them when they didn't want to be force-converted. It must have been a whiff of the wind I guess...
There were Papal sanctioned Crusades. That can't be refuted.
I know very well it is easy mod, I have gotten a very good mod from Wart, but I have to swap files every time I go online. And I would ofcourse like to get it officially acknowleged.
If it is so important with these Crusades, that only the big crusaders, those who went to the middle east, which to me seems to be what you recognise as the only Crusades in the history. Well, then why have all Catholics Inquisitors?
Shouldn't it have been a sole Spanish thing? With perhaps Fance as a siderunner (along the lines of Aragon having Crusades).
Again, thank you very much for replying.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 09-13-2002).]
Ok, I can't reply any more to this thread this weekend. So don't be offended because I don't reply or forget it in the meantime. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Arkatreides
09-13-2002, 21:01
No worries Kraxis, I'll bump you ... erm ... does that sound rude? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Nightweb
09-13-2002, 21:58
Unless someone hasn't read the above linkage, both denmark and sweden did launch crusades, both had papacy supported crusades too, and imho, it affected them alot, bear in mind that both countries had less citizen than the other nations that went on crusades.
I still think Sweden should have been playable too.. :P
Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
JRock, go and tell the thousands of butchered Wenders and Estonians that there was no Crusade up there killing them when they didn't want to be force-converted. [/QUOTE]
Was the crusade you're referencing started by Danes? I doubt it.
Arkatreides
09-13-2002, 23:23
*doing Kraxis' work*
1107 Crusade of Sigurd Jorsalfar, king of Norway
1147 Danish crusade against the Slavs on Rügen
1155 Crusade of St Erik, king of Sweden, and bishop Henrik to Finland
1160-64 Danish crusades against the Wendes
Thank you Ark. now I'm back. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Now I don't expect any of you to actually be able to read Danish, but I will include a link here and translate the most important part. Any Swede or Dane can verify my translation if you want.
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-19792/dk_valdemarsejr.html
Starting down in the middle of the section "Sunesen og Dannebrog"
"The Pope Honorius III had given Valdemar Sejr (Victory) permission to subjugate all heathen lands he could and put them under the Danish Church. Year 1219 was the year for the great Crusade against Estonia (Livonia). It is said that the jubilation of the 'attack' (not exactly the right word but close) in all of Denmark was great, as it was considered a Holy War. Preperations were not only made with weaponpractice but also with prair and "not eating" (I can't remember the true English word, Fasting?).
Valdemar Sejr and Anders Sunesen (the Archbishop of Denmark) went out into the Baltic with 500 ships in the summer, and landed where Tallinn is now situated. It was here the desiding Volmer-battle took place the 15th of June, when the Danish army, under cover by the dusk was attacked by the Estonian army. It was during this battle the Danish national sybol, Dannebrog (our flag) came to be. The legend has it that Anders Sunesen during the battle, standing looking at the sky prayed with raised arms. As long as he was able to do contiue the Danes were winning, when he got too tired and lowered them the Estonians were winning. When the other Priests noticed this they rushed to his side and held up his arms. Then suddenly a red banner with a white cross fell from the sky, and Gods voice was heard: "Carry it high, then you shall win!" And under this banner the Danes were led to victory. The heathen Estonians had to submit and accept the babtising. This story is though very much identic with the biblical story in 2nd Book of Moses 17:8-16 of the isrialites fight against amalkiterna. In reality the flag is supposed to be a gift from Pope Honorius. But everywhere since this it has been Denmarks national symbol."
It seems to me that this Crusade was much more of a Crusade than so many others, which were just meant to capture lands.
I don't expect you to know the Danish history very well, but an acceptance from the Pope to go out and Christianize the world is actually an acceptance for a Crusade.
This Crusade alongside the others Ark. has presented, should be enough to convince you Fishpants. If not, then I really want to know what you want as proof as then no Crusade would be a Crusade, but just a bunch of people saying they are on one.
And JRock, let me tell a thing about the Danish Chritanisation. It started in the early 800's and in the 950's or 60's the Danish king Harald Blåtand converted and declared Denmark Christian. Hardly true as he was afarid of the HRE to the south. But with the king Chritian the nobility and landowners would quickly follow, as it became very unprofitable to be Pagan.
The time around 1050 is recognized as the time when Denmark was Christian. This is also visible in the Crusifikses, in the beginning they showed Jesus as a strong man defiantly looking out ahead while on the cross, the reason for this was that the former Pagans did not like to worship a weak man.
By about 1050 this changed and we don't see any more of these, now Jesus has become as suffering and apparently as weak as we know him to be now. This means the people no longer worships physically strong men, thus they can't be Pagans anymore. A few diehards lived on for centuries until the last official Pagan was burned in 1450.
A Danish king is not Danish? And the Danish Archbishop is not Danish? Is that was you are saying JRock? Both of them lived their lives in Denmark and spoke Danish and Latin. Latin in Church Danish in general. Next time I advise you to stay out of things you don't know about.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 09-16-2002).]
Arkatreides
09-16-2002, 14:42
wb Kraxis!
(don't forget to bump my posts too http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif )
Well historical reasons aside, since they've been pretty well covered....
When you play the Danes you get all of the drawbacks of being a catholic faction and no benefit. You can get excommunicated for picking on other catholics, you can have crusades called against you (when exxed), but you cant call them yourself.
I always felt that Crusades were a balance for the meddling pope- sure he's a pest, but Crusades make it worthwhile. When you're the Danes- no such luck.
Case in point, Im currently playing as the Danes and have control of all the northern coastal provinces as well as a few inland ones. The elmo heads have just wiped out the french and are knocking on my door with massive stacks of 6+ command generals. My best general has a command of 4. This situation is just begging for a Crusade, but since I can't call one Im being overrun by a virtual tidal-wave of muslims.
Oda Matsu
09-16-2002, 14:58
If you really want to go there, the Spanish should be the kings of crusades. The Portuguese ought to be able to crusade as well (and have the option to be an independant country). And Spanish Inquisitors and High Inquisitors ought to have a special "genocide" capability, where wholesale massacres of heathen populations can be triggered at will (as opposed to waiting for them naturally), with a corresponding loot windfall for the presiding Spanish king.
If there happen to be any hapless Jews in the province, boost the loot.
Exactly Xiahou...
It is the same with the Polish. I don't know if they ever launched any Crusades, but from a balance point of view they should. And to be honest, if they didn't go on Crusades it wasn't because they couldn't. They just didn't need to it seems.
It is the same as my current game with the British, I have yet to launch a Crusade and we are writing 1208. I can, and possibly will soon (when zeal is up again, these historical events is a bummer for zeal), but I don't really need to. Should the British be excluded from Crusading because of this? No, of course not.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Yeah, you'd certainly think that as one of the last bastions of Catholicism left Id be able to call a crusade to stem the tide of Muslim invaders. (see my previous post)
As the Danes, Id rarely feel the need to call a Crusade- but when the situation calls for it... it'd be nice to have.
[This message has been edited by Xiahou (edited 09-16-2002).]
Yes, the need for Crusades are rarely there, but they are too much fun to excluded from a minority.
Sometimes I just launch them to have fun, not because I need to go to war against the Almohads. And it is also a good indicator of your relations, if they refuse then most likely you would have gone to war soon but now you have the advantage.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
What do I see?
BUMPY!!!! Good to see you again little Bumpy.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
BUMPY....
You still haven't left...
Fishpants did you really expect me to roll over and play dead? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Arkatreides
09-17-2002, 03:46
Give the man a crusade! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Yes, then you can certainly expect me to drop this issue and persue other less pressing imbalances and bugs. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
I dont really like the idea that 1 person, supported by perhaps 1-2 others, can influence the developers to alter the game for the certainly hundreds of thousands playing the game.
I especially do not like this when you are essentially doing it by making a nuisance of yourself (i.e. "I will not go away") and that even when you did get a response (re: "no") you kept it going. I understand you want to crusade, but considering how easy it is to mod, this WHOLE DISCUSSION revolves around changing the game for everyone just so YOU dont have the slight inconvienence of swapping a file every now and then.
From start to finish it just strikes me as being a tad lazy and selfish. Remember: the developers are not here to serve you, I think it is a phenomenal luxury that they read/post here often. This is a luxury I do not want to end because whiners constantly solicit them for game changes.
Quote Originally posted by eat cold steel:
Well there you go, answer from our historian. Convince him and crusade will go in officially, otherwise it's not that hard to get a mod to allow it.[/QUOTE]
Well Kalt, that is to me an invitation to convince him. I have posted my reasons, which are all sound mind you, now I await the result.
Fishpants had apparently been unlucky to get any info on Danish Crusades and I wished to help in that department.
While I am lobbying, no denying that, I doubt a successful result is a loss for all but me.
My headline might not have been the best, or well thought, it can hardly take the whole idea out of the reasons.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 09-16-2002).]
Quote Originally posted by Arkatreides:
*doing Kraxis' work*
1107 Crusade of Sigurd Jorsalfar, king of Norway
1147 Danish crusade against the Slavs on Rügen
1155 Crusade of St Erik, king of Sweden, and bishop Henrik to Finland
1160-64 Danish crusades against the Wendes[/QUOTE]
Interesting! Thank you for the education. I wasn't aware Crusades existed outside of southern Europe and headed towards Jerusalem!
theNiceOne
09-17-2002, 12:42
I can add to this that "Jorsalfar" actually means "Jerusalem traveller", and that Sigurd Jorsalfar was the first king to go on crusade.
Well you've got me sold. Too bad that doesn't mean offical sactioning.
VIKING CRUSADERS!!! That'd be funny to see.
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If the world were a cake I would have ruined my appetite eating it
Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
http://www.boomspeed.com/luftwaffle/NewSig2.jpg
Good to see you turned around JRock.
Even better to see that it is not only me Xiahou and the Danes that want Danish Crusades (and all the guys over at the com).
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Ok, to those who have not read Kalt's thread about not pestering the devs, and who are interested in this.
Well, I got what seems to be a definitive answer from Gil. There will be no official Danish Crusades.
I'm glad because I now have no need to go into a fight with Kalt. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
But I'm sad because apparently I failed to produce any convincing evidence of the Danes launching Crusades...
It hurts double because the Crusade I presented was the defining moment of Danish identity.
Well this is the end of it.
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Buuuuuut you can modify this yourself, so what's the problem guv? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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=MizuDoc=
Yes I can, and I guess I'm forced to from now on, but it is a bit of a pain to swap files. You have to go out of MTW for it to work properly, if you are going online.
Not like in SP, then it is just Alt-TAB.
+DOC+ how would you feel if you were told that what defined your national identity was nothing worth bothering with, that it was too insignificant. That is not pleasant.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
KRaxis, i'm not getting involved with all this hooha on your country's historical relevance here.
Take it from me as a Scot, we played a much more important role in medieval history than is represented in MTW, but do you hear me getting all enraged about it? In fact that reminds me.... i may just up the rebellious value of Scotland to somewhere near Portugal's level... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Anyway, suffice to say you can mod it yourself which is a lot better than nothing at all. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
GilJaysmith
09-19-2002, 12:51
Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
+DOC+ how would you feel if you were told that what defined your national identity was nothing worth bothering with, that it was too insignificant. That is not pleasant.
[/QUOTE]
Can I just clarify this without getting into further debate: our position is that we didn't want to add Danish crusades to the game, not that we disputed your facts or decided that the defining moment of your national identity was insignificant.
Gil ~ CA
This all just boils down to "But I do not want to swap files http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif"
boo hoo
Red Inquisition
09-19-2002, 19:18
Swaping file is kinda a pain. If you play alot of mp then it is even more of a pain.
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***Metalpriest***
"Bringing the Faith of Metal to the boyband Heathins"
Quote Originally posted by Kalt:
This all just boils down to "But I do not want to swap files http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif"
boo hoo[/QUOTE]
Kalt have I continued the point of the thread after the end? I did post a few posts to DOC and then let it die.
And I do think that I said I would swap the files, or do you have selective reading enabled???
Where on earth have you come from? If you didn't like this thread, why not just stay away? But you could not keep it in you could you? You had to come with that comment, and I tell you it is more than that.
It is the feeling of the game, the recognition, balancing (you can't argue with that) and then there is the swapping. So while you are right, you are only marginally right.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
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