Let's talk America

[Fragony]

I just realised I know absolutily nothing of this place. I can point out most states and all that, but it been here for a while. A while ago a portugese guy discovered it, BAM civil war, Kennedy got shot and Bush invaded Iraq. Must have been some things inbetween because it doesn't make sense. It's an intersting place that I know but I don't know why really. What are some of the interesting developments broadly speaking. Gimme a bit of history.

[Tart]

Gosh, where do you start?

A book that really helped me understand our USAan cousins more is this one:

The Penguin History of the USA (http://www.amazon.com/Penguin-History-USA-New/dp/014025255X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-1662515-7009557?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199201156&sr=8-1)

It can be a bit dry at times but it's a great book that covers, well, everything :)

[KukriKhan]

A while ago a portugese guy discovered it, BAM civil war, Kennedy got shot and Bush invaded Iraq.

:laugh4: Talk about a thumbnail sketch. Bravo! :laugh4:

Before the Portugese Guy, the locals organized themselves along family, and tribal lines. Some had written languages, many did not, so their history is clouded by diminishing word-of-mouth legends, though more details are coming to light these days via archeology, anthropology & other sciences.

Between the Portugese guy and Civil War: European royals laid claim to different parts of the continent, often overlapping; so the Pope divvy'd up which Euro Royal got which chunk of land to administer (without consulting the locals). Those Euros set out to develop/exploit the resources, set up trade and industry, and fought, or negotiated with each other and the locals over borders and resources.

English ex-pats, whose grandfathers had come here to escape their state-religion, got a wild hair, and decided they wanted more of a say in how their resources where used and taxed. Their King said: "No", so they banded together and pushed the King's soldiers and representatives off "their" land in a long and surprisingly successful guerilla war of attrition. Emboldened by their success, they set out to get neighboring areas to join their band (now called a Union).

Meanwhile, Napoleon was broke, so he sold much of France's Pope-designated lands to the Union for pennies on the franc, quadrupling the amount of land "held" by the Union - without consulting the locals.

Then, BAM, a civil war, over whether Union States could quit the Union, and who of their residents were actually full citizens. The side that said: "All residents are citizens", and "You can join the Union freely, but you can never leave"... won.

The former French lands organized themselves into States, similar to how the original band had, and over time applied for membership and joined the Union. After a few small wars with Spain, and its successor state, Mexico, the Union gained all the land from Atlantic to Pacific (it also paid the Czar for his holdings on the west coast).

That takes you up to the 20th century.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Before the Portugese Guy...

I thought he was Genoan?

As in: Columbus was Italian, did genoan discovered the West Indies... :embarassed:

[Gregoshi]

I thought he was Genoan?

As in: Columbus was Italian, did genoan discovered the West Indies... :embarassed:
That was just awful BG and I'm terribly jealous.

[Husar]

That was just awful BG and I'm terribly jealous.
I don't get it. :shrug:

But a nice summary Kukri made, didn't know the pope divided it, I thought it was just about who grabbed what first.

[Beirut]

Americans? :inquisitive:

Mad as hatters. Logical as Vulcans. Homogenous as milk. Eclectic as beetle species. Loveable as a koala bear. Dangerous as a hungry Great White. Dumb as fence posts. Brilliant beyond words. Cold as ice. Hot as Madonna on ecstasy.

They drive me nuts and I love 'em dearly. :unitedstates:

[Sasaki Kojiro]

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

[Fisherking]

Yep, the Italian working for Spain rediscovered the western hemisphere.

No body is quite sure who found it when but obviously the people already there knew where it was. An Irish monk sailed around for years and found something very much like it. The Norse found it but were too weak to make a lasting foothold. English fishermen knew about the grand banks and likely landed to dry their catch. Basques and Portuguese also sailed there but the Italian got the credit when Spain told the Pope.

All the major powers tried to establish colonies but most were gobbled up by Spain, France, & England. This is only the area now known as the USA, the rest, mostly south of there is more complicated.

Most of the English Colonies were started by companies but a couple were just taken over from other powers, as in New York having formerly belonged to the Dutch. Of course no one has asked the locals what they thought about it but they were not white Europeans, after all.

Now the English settlers began to pick up ideas from the locals that eventually became a problem for the guys back in England. They got the idea that they were all as good as anyone else regardless of birth and that they should have a say in how they were governed. They were a stubborn and persnickety bunch and would argue and pick political fights over practically anything.

The English government was a little miffed over some of this behavior to say the least. They came up with a few schemes to have the colonists pay for their defense and recoup some of the money they spent protecting them from France in the last war, (the 7 years war).

These ungrateful wretches were refusing to pay and avoiding the taxes and duties levied by Parliament, often with the help and knowledge of colonial authorities. . Naturally the government sent a few troops to help collect their taxes and keep order. This was what was usually done in such cases and always worked before…even with the Irish, (England’s only other Colonial experience)though you may need to kill a few to get the point across with them.

Unfortunately King James I, ill-advisedly granted the American Colonies the same rights and privileges as other British Subjects, as though they had been born in England its self.

Now the ingrates again surprised the home government by complaining about having to quarter the troops in their homes. Now I ask you, where else were they supposed to put them, and how else were they supposed to eat?

Even more astounding, those in closest contact with the English Solders detested them most!
It seemed as though these half foreign colonists were not only ingrates but also disrespectful, uppity scoundrels.

Prime Minister Grenville also discovered that there was too little money coming in from the colonies and he asked the gentlemen of parliament to pass the stamp act, which was a tax on printed materials.

Well this lead to unprecedented uproar. There was rioting and commotion to no end, and worse yet all of the 13 American Colonies formed a league to oppose it.

May I say that the British were surprised by the level of the opposition to the Stamp tax. Unfortunately they were faced with two options, repress the opposition with force or repeal the Stamp Tax. Many in Britain supported repeal of the tax, feeling it was not possible to enforce it. British merchants also supported the repeal, believing that the tax was bad for their business.

There was a heated debate in the British parliament. William Pitt one of the greatest orators in the parliament rose from his sickbed to argue for the repeal of the tax. He said “ This Kingdom has no right to lay a tax upon the colonies. They are the subjects of the kingdom equally entitled with yourselves to all the natural rights of mankind and the peculiar privileges of Englishmen. The Americans are the sons not the bastards of England.” Later in his speech he stated- “Some have the idea that the colonies are virtually represented in this house. I would fain to know by an American is represented here?”


Prime Minister Grenville responded to Pitts speech defending the taxes. The debate went on, and the parliament decided to add a Declaratory Act that stated that the parliament had the right to impose the taxes. Finally, after the King indicated that he supported the repeal, the Stamp Tax was repealed by a margin of 200 votes.

In the summer of 1766, William Pitt was made Prime Minister by the most mad George III. Pitt was popular in the colonies. He opposed the Stamp Act and believed that colonists were entitled to all the rights of English citizens.
Pitt suddenly became sick (more‘s the wonder). Charles Townshend, Chancellor of the Exchequer, took over the effective reins of the government. Unlike his predecessor, Townshend was not concerned with the subtleties of the rights of American colonists. Townshend wanted to strengthen the power of the British parliament which would simultaneously strengthen the power of royal officials. He convinced the Parliament to pass a series of laws imposing new taxes on the colonists. These laws included special taxes on lead, paint, paper, glass and tea imported by colonists. In addition, the New York legislature was suspended until it agreed to quarter British soldiers.
The Acts also insured that colonial officials, including governors and judges, would receive their salaries directly from the Crown.

Can you guess that the rabble-rousers didn‘t take this too kindly? They responded with a boycott which cut trade between them and Briton by half.
This would never do of course, so more troops were sent to Boston, which seemed to be a center of descent. This in turn brought more unrest, for what ever reason they still didn‘t like British soldiers.

A trade monopoly was also given to the East India Company…(draw conclusions why here)

From that point on things only seemed to go from bad to worse, until it erupted into a full scale revolt which lasted until Briton was sick of it and went home.

Everyone know how benevolent the British are, so one can see what irascible, ungrateful, troublemakers the Americans are. They don‘t seem to have stopped to this day, and what it more they have spread those dangerous beliefs, first to France, and then elsewhere. It has deprived Noblemen across a great deal of the globe their god given rights of birth to rule the masses and generally made a nuisance for everyone.



And that boys and girls is why there is a USA

[KukriKhan]

And that boys and girls is why there is a USA

Brilliant (and funny) alternate perspective.

So anyway, we've covered how the land was acquired. Meanwhile, a constant influx of newcomers (mostly from western Euro) fueled the expansion of the country, and the "American Dream" that: with hard work, "street" smarts (even if the 'streets' were a forest or desert), and a bit of luck, any Joe Blow with ambition could move up from street-sweeper/farmer to President in a generation or two.

I say "a bit of luck" because that's part of the dream. Fact is, as a country, "luck" had plenty to do with its success (IMO), and its citizens'.

The 1776 revolutionaries should have been crushed by GB, statistically speaking. The Amerinds should have effectively halted Euro-Am encroachment. But somehow, someway, americans have mostly managed to snatch victory suddenly out of the jaws of certain defeat. Those few loses suffered get ignored as aberrations.

This string of successes led to the development of the 'american mind', IMO. A sort of mish-mash mix of hero legends, borrowed from the immigrants' former cultures, that fixed on the trials and tribulations, and ultimate victory of the individual man - the lone cowboy facing overwhelming odds, yet winning. The cunning woodsman, the lonely frontiersman. This 'mind' also leads to the optimism-beyond-all-evidence that is sometimes loved, sometime reviled, by non-americans.

These paragraphs just scratch the surface of course, but I tried to not be too detailed, per Fragony's OP, and just give a "feel" for the place to the non-resident.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The 1776 revolutionaries should have been crushed by GB, statistically speaking. The Amerinds should have effectively halted Euro-Am encroachment. But somehow, someway, americans have mostly managed to snatch victory suddenly out of the jaws of certain defeat. Those few loses suffered get ignored as aberrations.

Well, Britain was fighting a European war at the time against France, and probably considered it more pressing. But isn't this a topic for the Monastary?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Might as well chip in my 2 cents. Beirut summed it up for me: 'Mad as hatters. Logical as Vulcans. Homogenous as milk. Eclectic as beetle species. Loveable as a koala bear. Dangerous as a hungry Great White. Dumb as fence posts. Brilliant beyond words. Cold as ice. Hot as Madonna on ecstasy.

They drive me nuts and I love 'em dearly..'


There are so many great historical, philosophical and sociological books explaining America for the unintiated it boggles the mind. Anyone who's willing to put in the time and effort can get a firm grasp of America through this. There are a million gems readily available to anyone. I, however, am not going to recommend you anyone of them, since, of course, I am ever to lazy to actually read any.

So instead, I shall recommend a movie. There is a wealth of American literatur, films and music too, which should give anyone at least the ability to scratch the surface of America. (For me, my definate source on America is Bruce Springsteen. And Devastating Dave.)
The name of the thread made me think about 'Once upon a Time in America'. It is not a comprehensive story about America. It is the story of a few Jewish immigrants in Ney York. But this, I think, is how to tell the story of America. The collective stories of the hopes, the dreams and the hard facts that are the lives of millions, past and present, IS America.

https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6996/395pxonceuponatimeinamedp0.jpg


Once Upon a Time in America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_Upon_a_Time_in_America) (Italian title C'era una volta in America) is a 1984 crime film directed by Sergio Leone, starring Robert De Niro and James Woods. The story chronicles the lives of Jewish ghetto youths who rise to prominence in New York City's world of organized crime. The film explores childhood friendships, loss, broken relationships, and the appearance of mobsters in American society.

The film premiered at the 1984 Cannes Film Festival at its original running time of 229 minutes (3 hours 49 minutes). It was released in the United States in a heavily edited and truncated version almost ninety minutes shorter than the original version released in Europe, against Leone's wishes. The short version eliminates the elaborate flashback structure of the film, instead placing the scenes in chronological order.

I quoted the bit above because it is so telling of Americ's mind-boggling ambiguities. They make the best movie ever, and then they cut out 90 minutes of it to dumb it down for American audiences. I find this so exemplary for what I recognised in Beirut's take on America.

[Lemur]

Everything you know can be learned right here (http://www.spschat.com/RareMedia/videos/americanhistory.rm). (RealPlayer warning. Hassle-free way to view RealMedia files here (http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Real_Alternative.htm).)

[Fragony]

Would like to hear some more about folklore and local legends, and great story's in general. I love the way Tim Burton makes america a romantic place in his movies like 'Big Fish'. I want to get a 'feel' for it as Kukri called it. America is a fascinating place, kinda ashamed I know so little about it, it isn't really alive for me as a place on earth, I know only of it's politics.

[Odin]

Talk america?

Were to busy in food lines and fighting armed bandits in the crumbling streets. The entire country is in disrepair, plunging moral and ethical charecter as well as corruption at every level of civil government.

Truly america is on the brink of disaster !

Thank god we have Europeans who have already had thier countries crumble and rebuild to show us the way... :zzz:

:unitedstates:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well, Britain was fighting a European war at the time against France, and probably considered it more pressing. But isn't this a topic for the Monastary?

France, Spain, and the Dutch may have quietly tossed a little aid to the colonial rebels, but did not get into the war fully until after the American victory at Saratoga (By our hero Benedict Arnold :shocked2: ) demonstrated that the colonial rebellion was not a doomed cause. So they didn't really get into it until 1778.

Britain flubbed its chance at a win by not crushing things early, when the colonials hadn't even gotten around to formalizing their declaration of independence. Had Cornwallis been put in charge in 1775 and a serious commitment of troops made quickly, then there is a good chance the rebellion would have ended in 1776.

As the rebellion wore on, the logistical difficulties of fighting a significant land conflict at that distance (in an age of sail) and then the expansion of hostilities into a global conflict by the addition of France and Spain to the war made victory in North America almost impossible.

Most of this is monastery stuff. However, as Odin's post reveals and as Fragony's humorous precis of the USA confirms, there is a political current to this thread that impacts many of the others under discussion. Understanding the USA is a useful component of dealing with any of the major issues of the day -- even if you're position is to advocate the USA take a less central role in those ongoing issues.:cheesy:

[Geoffrey S]

Would like to hear some more about folklore and local legends, and great story's in general. I love the way Tim Burton makes america a romantic place in his movies like 'Big Fish'. I want to get a 'feel' for it as Kukri called it. America is a fascinating place, kinda ashamed I know so little about it, it isn't really alive for me as a place on earth, I know only of it's politics.
Only way to solve that is to visit. Trust me, it's a complete and utter culture shock coming from the Netherlands. Everything is different, some things in rather surprising ways. Travelling around the place makes it impossible to view it as one big United States; sure, for the largest part they're all Americans, but it's like loads of countries inside one big one.

[Strike For The South]

Come to Texas we're America but better looking

[Odin]

Come to Texas we're America but better looking

I havent been to Texas in a few years. Its the only state i have been too where "Mello Yellow" and "Dr Pepper" are beverage items at almost every restaurant (that I went too).

that includes a real barbacue pit in denton county, it was great the cattle were on the ranch, talk about fresh meat !

[Fragony]

Come to Texas we're America but better looking

Aren't we all in a way

[Vladimir]

Americans? :inquisitive:

Mad as hatters. Logical as Vulcans. Homogenous as milk. Eclectic as beetle species. Loveable as a koala bear. Dangerous as a hungry Great White. Dumb as fence posts. Brilliant beyond words. Cold as ice. Hot as Madonna on ecstasy.



Um, well, yea!

Too diverse to generalize. We're the greatest because we build upon the greatest ideas from everywhere; mad *and* eclectic. I just can't wait to see where the next step takes mankind.