The Romani Princeps

[Calypze]

The faction leader of the Romani faction is called Princeps.

However, when I checked that word up, it appears that that title was used by the Roman Emperors, i.e at the end of the EB timeframe, long after 272 BCE.

I understand that the Roman republican system of consulars being elected every two years are probably not possible to represent in the RTW engine. But where does the Princeps come into the picture at 272 BCE? Shouldn't the Roman titles for faction leader and faction heir be treated as if they don't exist, and thus not give any bonuses?

Another question... is the Republican system represented in any way in any part in EB?

[Michiel de Ruyter]

The principle of a "Princeps"(= First citizen) was well known before the Principate, althoughto my knowledge only in an unofficial connotation. It was simply applied to the most dominant (for whatever reason) man in Roman politics. Supposedly the eagerness to reach this status was what partially fueled many rivalries (Marius vs Sulla, Caesar vs Pompey) or fueled many factional conflicts (trying to prevent a single man from obtaining or keeping this status, like ie Scipio).

Only under the Principate the term Prrinceps became part of the official titulature.

[Apgad]

Also, consuls were elected in pairs for a year at a time. The one with the most votes was the senior consul, and took slight precedence over the other. If one died in office the Senate could appoint a replacement (suffectus) for the rest of that year. This could also happen if a consul resigned, which didn't happen much until Augustus' time. IIRC, he (and his "recommendees") would do this so that other loyal supporters appointed to the post would gain automatic admission to the Senate, in order to bump up the numbers. By this stage the number of senators had, umm, dwindled a little, what with civil wars and proscriptions...

[cmacq]

Princeps Senatus traditionally was applied to the oldest member of the Senate whos voice was always heard first in debate. In affect the Princeps acted as the presiding officer over the Senate, but included no organic power. This office tended to be occupied by members of the same families.

[CirdanDharix]

Not always the eldest. Scipio Africanus was Princeps Senatus when he was still quite young. To put into modern terms, it was the speaker, or president of the Senate; the Princeps gets to speak first and to lord it during Senatorial debates, but he still only gets one vote when push comes to shove. How much power he wields depends solely upon himself and how influential he is; the office only gives him a slight bump in prestige.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What has been said above is more or less correct but "Princeps" was not an office during the Republic. The elected magistrates would usually preside in debate, not the Princeps. You weren't granted the title, you kept it as long as you could hold onto it. Marius, Sulla, Crassus, Pompey, Ceasar and Cicero could all have been deemed Princeps at one time or another.

Their official power at the time, particually Cicero's, was zero.

[cmacq]

Right, I said 'acted as the presiding officer,' not an office. I also said, 'traditionally was applied to the oldest member,' not always applied. But I get your point.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Nuance is a bitch, being a writer and a historian I have a lot of practice.

Often though, the nuances of Tacitus and Cicero are damned irritating.

[cmacq]

Not a fan of Cicero, but I looked up the word 'nuance' the other day and found this:


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Tacitus1.jpg

Sorry, that's a bad joke.
This was what I found:

http://z.about.com/d/ancienthistory/1/8/E/E/Tacitus.jpg

[stupac]

I don't want to shift the subject too much, but what about the depiction of the republican system in RTW? Clearly you wouldn't be able to do much fighting if only consuls could lead armies, but weren't there situations (albeit few and far between probably) when other men could lead armies? E.g. I don't think Scipio Africanus was a consul when he took command of the Iberian theatre. So how would roleplaying the Romani work in EB?

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

I'm fairly sure certain Praetors were given the right to lead armies in times of crisis, or when two leaders were not enough.

Certainly Sulla led an army into Cappadocia will the governor propraetore of Cilicia, but that was considered an emergency and no actual fighting took place. While on this expedition however he crossed the Euphrates implying that he had a free rein (no previous Roman Army had ever done so). Around the same time, before the social war, Q. Bruttius Sura (governer propraetore of Macedonia) was also fighting a long and brutal war against the Scordisci tribes in what is now the Balkans when Mithridates the Great invaded Greece. This seems to support my theory that Praetors at least were able to take command.

Also proconsuls, or men who had been consul and were then governing provinces had command of a certain number of legions, ostensibly to keep the peace, but could embark on a 'defensive' war for the good of Rome if authorised by the Senate. They were still below the Consul of the though. This caused a problem in 106bc when the proconsul Q. Servilius Caepio refused to hand over command of his army to the consul Gn. Mallius Maximus (novus homo) due to his 'poor' social status. The two armies never combined and were annihilated at Arausio by the Germani.

So in answer to your question, consuls, proconsuls, praetors and propraetors command armies. I'm also fairly certain that in times of need Consulars (ie. those who had already been consul) could command armies.


PS:I think in certain situations Aediles (and possibly Quaestors) could be authorised by a superior to detach a force to operate, but I'm not sure.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

Apologies, I can't remember if Bruttius Sura was actually the governor of Macedonia, or just his legate. But my basic point remains the same, sorry.

[CirdanDharix]

When he first lead an army in Iberia, Scipio Africanus had not held an office higher than that of Aedile, to which he had been elected before meeting the age requirement. However, he was given, by a special law, a command "equivalent to that of a proconsul".

[stupac]

Interesting, so how would you guys roleplay in EB? Is it just impossible? So just throw out the republican system and let anyone lead armies and govern cities. Clearly if you try to strictly follow the republican system due to the constraints of RTW's engine you will have lots of young men sitting around waiting to move up senatorial ranks to eventually gain command of armies or settlements. And then you'll never be able to finish your battles before your consul loses his rank. Maybe it's possible to bend the rules a bit to maintain playability and some simbalence of history? Just wondering how folks here play their Romani campaigns.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

There are definately some Roman scholars here, so I won't make airs otherwise. In regards to your question on enjoyable, playable, pseudo-historical guidelines, I find guild member Konny's "house rules" to be just the thing. Check them out and see if they are what you are looking for.
All this talk of Roma ... almost makes you want to take up that eagle standard ... almost ... :)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In order to lead an army you need Imperium, the power of life and eath over Roman citizens. So Praetors, Propraetors, Consuls, and Proconsuls can lead armies. Consulars don't have Imperium, but they are more likely to be granted it by the Senate.

These Magistrates could deputise to others (Legates etc.) but the Legate wasn't actually commanding the army. Under the Principate all governors and generals recieved their Imperium from one Proconsul, the Emperor.

[konny]

In addition to that there is always the possibility to assign a Dictator


Interesting, so how would you guys roleplay in EB?

In my recent Romani campaign I use the following system:

There are two Consuls, faction leader and facton heir. Unfortuantly I can't change the faction leader so only the faction heir is elected annualy. To become a Consul a character must have been Praetor prior and have the age of 40 (42 for Plebians). Of the suitable candidates the one with the highest military ranking is elected, that is command stars + (or minus) troop moral + experince of the BG. To this added is the charcters influence. Members of the same family and/or gens can support each other and add their ranking to the one they want to be elected (usually the head of the family or the one with best chances).

Consuls can command the two Consular Armies everywhere (see below).

In the beginning there is only one Praetor Urbanus. He is the governor of Rome, but might also reside in Arretium or Capua when a Consul with a higher management ranking is present in Rome. After the conquest of Taras and Rhegion a second Praetor Peregrinus is elected who resides in Taras. With the conquest of further provinces new Praetors will be elected for each one during Camillan and Polybian times. That is not a Praetor for every settlement but a Praetor for a group of settlements that historicaly or logicaly from a Roman Province, for example Sicily. In Marian times the Pro-Praetors and Pro-Consuls will govern provinces, that are characters that had held these offices before (save for the faction leader).

To become a Praetor one has to be 39 and must have held the office of Aedile or Quaestor prioir. Of the suitable characters the ones with the highest law ranking plus their influence can be eleceted. Once again members of the same family and/or gens can support each other and add their ranking to the one they want to be elected.

Praetors can command armies in their Province if there is no Consul present.

There are four Aediles. Two Plebian Aediles residing in Ariminum and Arpi and two Patrizian Aediles residing in Arretium and Capua. To become an Aedile one has to be 36 and held the office of Quaestor prior. Of the suitable characters the ones with the highest squalor ranking (that is reducing the most squalor) plus their influence can be eleceted. Once again members of the same family and/or gens can support each other and add their ranking to the one they want to be elected.

When there are not enough suitable Aediles these towns will be run by Quaestros regardless of their class. Aediles do not command armies.

The number of Quaestors is changing throughout the game according to what is needed. As a rule of thumb there is one Quaestor per every Consul and every Praetor, but this number can also be raised for example when there are not enough Aediles to rule the Italian towns. Every Consul has the right to name one Quaestor his "adjutant" when he goes on campaign, what is in particular usefull when there are young Quaestors of the same family or gens that are able either in military or unrest/law abilities and can be a great help on campaign.

The provinces also have at least one Quaestor who is governing one of the towns, the other towns are usually run be Legates who do not need to be elected but named by the respective (Pro-)Praetor/Pro-Consul. Rhegion, Segesta, Patavium and Bononia are also ruled by Quaestors because they are homelands.

To become a Quaestor a character has to be at least 30 (28 for Patrizians). Of the suitable characters the ones with the highest management ranking plus their influence can be eleceted. Once again members of the same family and/or gens can support each other and add their ranking to the one they want to be elected.


You can see, that I let my magistrates govern that cities instead of hanging around in Rome. That is first of all due to the lack of FMs. Also because of that the magistrats can be re-elected in their office without limit, until someone more suitable/influenced is elected or they advandce in office.


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Outside this cursus honorum there is the office of the Plebian Tribune. Only Plebians can become Tribunes. Of the suitable characters the one with the highest unrest ranking (that is reducing the most unrest) plus their influence can be eleceted. Once again members of the same family and/or gens can support each other and add their ranking to the one they want to be elected. The Tribune is always residing in Rome. Becuase no one can be Plebian Tribune and hold another office at a time, is mostly a position for Plebians who didn't make it to Quaestor.

But he is nevertheless important because the Plebian assembly is passing laws and so make the military reforms happen. I had changed their requirements and tied them to the numbers of provinces only, but made it a houserule that they will only take place if there is Plebian Tribune who has at least a ranking of unrest and influence of 5 or there is a Popular Consul who holds the majority within the Senate (very rare). Otherwise I won't build the respective MICs.

Also, a high ranking Tribune, by influence and unrest, can veto the actions of the Senate/the Consuls. That is preventing them form starting a war, for example.

Also not part of the cursus is the office of Dictator. Dictators are elected by the Senate any time a hostile army enters Italy and both consuls are absent and the Praetor Urbanus is a military 0, or a Consular army had been defeated in a homeland province. The Dictator names a Master of the Horse as his second-in-command, and can command every army. His term is limited to one year. In Marian times Dictators will be installed more frequently.


The last one is the Censor. He is responsible to name new members of the Senat, what becomes important when there will be more candidates than free seats (see below). The faction leader is always considered to hold the office of Censor.

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The Senat has a maximum of 30 members (60 in Marian times, 30 in Imperial times). Usually everyone who became Quaestor will also become Senator. And every character with the "Nobile" trait will become Senator with 30 if he has not became Quaestor before.

Within the Senat every Senator has at least one vote (his own) plus client votes according to his influence, so a maximum of 10. Senators of the same gens or family are supporting each other in voting.

The Senate can order with his majority each magistrate to do something (for example order a Consul to move out and attack an Eleutheroi town). It can also make exceptions from the cursus, for example name a Quaestor pro praetore as governer of a province if there are no more Praetors available. It can basicaly decide on war and peace because it can order a Consul or Praetor to use his army against a town held be another faction. But all this - save for the decision to elecet a Dictator - can be vetoed by a Plebian Tribune, provided he "is someone".

The votes of the Senators are determined by their basic traits. Patrizians, and in particular Optimates, are usually for war because the rich profit from it; while Plebians and in particular Populares are usually against it because the poor have to fight it. But you can also roleplay your characters a bit more, for example some one optimistic might look foreward to new conquest while a pessemist might be anxious of loosing it. An uncharismatic character might be influenced by the speach of a charismatic character (only Consuls and Praetors have the right to speak and so influence other characters). etcpp.


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Let's turn into material: The Army.

I Camillan time there are four Legions (consider them to be double Legions for historic convenice)

Two a raised in Rome consisting each of:

1x Leves
1x Rorarii
1x Accensi
2x Hastati
2x Principes
2x Triarii
Consul

One in Arretium and Arpi:

1x Leves
1x Rorarii
1x Accensi
2x Hastati
2x Principes
2x Triarii
Young familiy member as military tribune or 1x Equites Romani

One in Capua and Arpi

1x Leves
1x Rorarii
1x Accensi
2x Hastati
2x Hastati Samnitici
2x Samnitici Milites
Young familiy member as military tribune or 1x Equites Campanii

The Consular Army is made up of one of the Roman Legions plus one of the other.

In Polybian times there will be two more and the line up changes:

Two in Rome, each:

1x Velites
1x Accensi (for gameplay reasons, you need missle but not 2 Velites)
2x Hastati
2x Principes
1x Triarii
1x Pedites Extraordinarii
1x Equites Extraordinarii
Consul

One in Arretium and Arpi:

1x Velites
1x Accensi
2x Hastati
2x Principes
1x Triarii
1x Equites Romani
Free slot for additional auxilia
Military Tribune, or another free slot

One in Capua and Arpi

1x Velites
1x Accensi
2x Hastati
2x Principes
1x Triarii
1x Equites Campanii
Free slot for additional auxilia
Military Tribune, or another free slot

One in Taras and Rhegion

1x Velites
1x Toxotai
2x Hastati
2x Principes
1x Triarii
1x Hippeis (you'll have Level 3 MIC in Taras until then)
Free slot for additional auxilia
Military Tribune, or another free slot

One in the three northern towns

1x Velites
1x Iaosatae
2x Hastati
2x Principes
1x Triarii
1x Equites Romani
Free slot for additional auxilia
Military Tribune, or another free slot

In addition to the above there will be of course additional forces raised from the local of the other provinces.

I also make a "Pseudo Marian" reform sometimes halfway between Polybian and Marian times. After that reform no more Hastati and Triarii will be raised but replaced with Principes.

[Calypze]

Thank you for the replies. So Princeps during this era is more like an honorary title than anyting which carries authority, right? And would the most historically realistic way to play be to make the eldest character (or occasionally an extremely successful general) the heir of the Princeps?

And, is the Roman government represented in any way, and if so, how? Or is it just something "behind the scenes" which doesn't affect the game, and is only in the player's fantasy? I assume that the "family members" are all Roman politicians of one sort or another, am I right?

Btw, those house rules are interesting, I'll have to check them out more closely, but I'm also interested in what is actually built in into EB.

[Michiel de Ruyter]

Thank you for the replies. So Princeps during this era is more like an honorary title than anyting which carries authority, right? And would the most historically realistic way to play be to make the eldest character (or occasionally an extremely successful general) the heir of the Princeps?

The title princeps does not carry any legal authority. However, there is the prestige factor, which was hugely important within the Roman aristocracy, and one could exert significant influence through that. Basically using prestige (and clients) to influence politicis behind the scenes.

My guess is that those who held the legal power and those who held the position of princeps tended to belong to the same aristocratic faction. The only way to break that stranglehold was either through reallignment of alliances within the aristocracy or by courting the mob (and later millitary), like the Gracchi and Sulla did.