Overextension - Anticipating loss of infuence

[Jxrc]

In my current HRE campaign I basically got carried away and I am pretty much now running out of steam ...

In a nutschell, the following happened. Started as usual for me and I manage to develop my starting homeland until about 1110 ... Then the Poles attacked and .... surprise .... all my alliances were cancelled and I was attacked by the French ... Problem was that I only got two heirs from my first king (the future king with two stars and his brother with three) ... While the original king (three stars) remained in Austria to check the Hungarians and Italians, the tow princes were my only two half decent general available. One whipped the floor with the Poles (who had no outstanding general either and use way too many crappy troops) while the other was lucky enough to smash the French army lead by a six star general (but they used way too many peasants to fill the ranks). Became the proud owner of Silesia, Poland, Pomerania, Ile de France, Flanders and Champagne .... King of France was killed a few years later.

Surprisingly enough, the English, Italian and Hungarian joined the fray. The only "historical" general I got in the meantime was Albrecht der Bär (4 stars) who got almost immediately the "pride" v&v .... Only "good news" was that the Aragones took Toulouse and limit the risk of a French reappearance near my border. On the western front, my remaining prince was then a four star specialist attacker and manage to deal a swift blow to the English who went into civil war (AI was silly enough to siege the castle in Ile de France without leaving any cover serious troops in Anjou and Normandy ==> Took those with a few spearmen, attacked the besieging army who got trapped after being defeated). Brittany was rebel and I bribed the French general (4 stars) for 5,000 florins (a huge amount for a HRE player). Bad news was that he got his butt kicked so that my old prince had to finish the job. Then I attacked Aquitaine and the silly English king retreated without a fight and got ransomed (+10k !!!!). On the Italian front, I had a lucky break and the Italian got into civil war pretty much spontaneously (just lost one fight before) so that it was easy for my King to conquer all the Italian holdings on the continent. The Doge retreated to Serbia where the bulk of his troops was and attempted to land in Venice three years in a row but got beaten every year with more ease (leading an army of urban militia with the "good runner" and "retreat often" vices is indeed hard business). For the Hungarian, they first took Bohemia but were pushed back and I was able to occupy Hungary with about 900 men. Next year they came back in force but for bridge battle that they lost with heavy losses. Later my army from Venice attacked Croatia, trapped their king who died without an heir.

Surprisingly again, the Aragonese attacked Anjou from Toulouse. They were pushed back and driven back to Arragon. They will probably attempt a come back in the next turn but I could not find the courage to fight one more battle after thirty years with one or two battles every turn ...

Now to my problem. It about 1165, I have no great deal of money, only a few decent general (old prince now five stars in Toulouse - king now four start in Croatia - three stars general in Hungary). The rest are just one stars general who were in charge during the odd battle ...

On several fronts thing are ok

In the northwest, the English are still trying to recover from their civil war and should leave me alone for quite a while.
In the southwest, that should be ok since I have at least one good general there (I intend to keep the Aragonese alive to use as a buffer between me and the Spanish).
In Italy, things are all nice for the moment but I doubt the Pope will leave me alone for long. More worrying, the Sicilian will probably try to land somewhere in the near future (they go three stacks in Naples and I have not ship at all in that region).
In the northeast I am faced with the Poles who make a nice buffer (they have dodgy troops and probably no money to get any development going since they only have Prussia and Volodyna) between me and the Russians.
In the Southeast, this look doomed. Indeed Walachia, Serbia and Carpathia are rebel and I would need to take those if I want to avoid a come-back by the Hungarian.The problem is that the Byz worry me quite a bit since they are amassing troops in Moldavia, Greece and Bulgaria lead by the usual jedi-princes ... Can be sure that as soon as I have a border with them (or when they will be no rebel province left) they will attack and I have pretty much nothing that could match their force and no money to spam units "en masse". Notwithstanding my recent conquests, my king influence is nothing to sing about (7) and my generals' average loyalty is still rather poor (4). My question is thus what is the best way to deal with a setback in territorial terms ? Retreat without a fight ? Or can I afford to loose a fight firing all my arrows and withdrawing before it gets ugly ? Any advice welcome!! No a familiar situation for me ... I usually turtle but due to the absence of good generals I had to rush things more that I like to ...

[Innocentius]

From what I can tell, your eastern border is made up of Pomerania, Poland (you're playing Vanilla, right?), Hungary and Croatia. That sounds like a nice five province border to me, and with a buffer state to the NE, and two decent-to-good generals in the SE, you should probably be off pretty fine unless you further overextend yourself by advancing further.

I'd leave the rebel provinces in the SE to the rebels - take the risk. Even if the Huns re-emerge, chances are they might be forced to stay in place with your armies on one side and the Byz on the other. Moreover, I wouldn't worry too much about the Byz, actually. Their stacks, and specially in Bulgaria, tend to consist of really lousy units (Slav infantry, mostly). Have you checked what kind of troops they have?

Numerically, the player - and the HRE in particular - is always at a disadvantage, but as long as your troops are of better quality than that of your enemies, you should be able to lure them into senseless battles where you, as the defender, can easily crush them. Remember that smaller numbers can actually work in your favor, on several occassions the AI have attacked me with numerically superior, although technically inferior, forces (once in Bulgaria, I fended off 2000 Cumans with one unit of Halberdiers, one Boyar (general) and two Arbalesters at a bridge). Other than that, I don't think I can give any more precise advice other than the usual (develop your economy, initiate trade routes, make sure your army is ok) unless I know more about the situation. Good luck!

[Jxrc]

From what I can tell, your eastern border is made up of Pomerania, Poland (you're playing Vanilla, right?), Hungary and Croatia.!


I'd leave the rebel provinces in the SE to the rebels - take the risk. Even if the Huns re-emerge, chances are they might be forced to stay in place with your armies on one side and the Byz on the other. .!

Will try that but my garrisons have become pretty small due to constant castle assaults to avoid excom. Pumping up what I can but nothing fancy (no cash to spare really since I have basically no trade network ... only connected Flanders, Friesland and Saxony with Denmark and Finland ... the rest has no port or is hostile). It will be mounted x-bows and spearmen for a while .... With a little luck the rebel provinces will create a distraction for the Byz.


Moreover, I wouldn't worry too much about the Byz, actually. Their stacks, and specially in Bulgaria, tend to consist of really lousy units (Slav infantry, mostly). Have you checked what kind of troops they have?.!

We here they have ships in the black sea so that there is a long of coming and leaving each turn (no idea what is happening in asia minor but the Turks are gone and there is no eggy-byz war). Sending agents to make sure but plengty of cutthroats arounds there seems since they get killed pretty quick ... The army composition varies a lot with time ... One year it is just the usual rabble you describe, the next it is improved with a large addition of Trebizon archers, quite a few Byz infrantry, the usual Katatank plus the odd vagarian guard ... They got a bit more than one stack in Greece and Bulgaria but two or four (depending on the year) in Moldovia


once in Bulgaria, I fended off 2000 Cumans with one unit of Halberdiers, one Boyar (general) and two Arbalesters at a bridge. ?.! Respect :2thumbsup: but I am not that good


Other than that, I don't think I can give any more precise advice other than the usual (develop your economy, initiate trade routes, make sure your army is ok) unless I know more about the situation. ?.! If things stay idle for about twenty years, I should be great since I will have the time to get some money rolling and will get a few additional heirs. The things is that the rythm of this campaign has been very fast so far (I war with every faction I connect with basically - except the Danes !!!)


Good luck! Thanks !!! Many thanks for the tips too.

[Heidrek]

Never underestimate the power of a bridge.

I'm playing a campaign as the Russians in High age at the moment. Early on in the game the golden horde arrived with their masses of cavalry and archers right in my back yard. I immediately lost Volga Bulgaria and Kazar, and had no where near the concentration of troops necessary to fend off their legions in a stand up face to face battle.

Fortunately, a few of my new border provinces had rivers that meant that there very few invasion paths the Mongols could take. I concentrated my troops in these more vulnerable provinces and put my best generals in command of them.

In those provinces where I'd be defending a bridge (right clicking the invading territory and moving the mouse over to the border of the defending one will tell you whether or not there is a river to defend) I stationed a couple of units of Halbardiers, a couple of missile units and as much artillery as I could find. Taverns were good for this and I managed to net a few extra catapults this way.

A few turn passed without any attack. The Mongol hordes were massed along the borders trying to decide whether to attack my heavily defended provinces or the weakly defended but hard to take bridges. Each turn I moved a couple more units into the non river provinces. I was hoping they'd take the hint and move down into turkish held territory.

Finally the mongols attacked one of the bridges. I had 2 units of Halbardiers, 2 catapults and I think one unit of Horse Archers. The mongols attacked with around 1000 troops. The result was a total masacre. My Halbardiers killed unit after unit of Cavalry, including the enemy general while the catapults lobbed rocks into the massed archers on the far side while out of range. I didn't even need my second unit of Halb's, I only lost 20 of the first unit in the whole fight. Hundreds of mogols killed and the Horse Archers chased down about a hundred more which I immediately executed so they couldn't be ransomed back.

You can get amazing results if you can force bad matchups for your opponent. Numbers don't mean much to be honest. I've routinely defended against armies 2-3 times my size without bridges simply because my troops were better than thiers and I had the advantage of terrain or choosing my starting line up to counter theirs.

One final point about defending against greater numbers while trying to "get your breath" - You can do very well at outlasting your opponent by handling invasions and sieges well. Pesants and Slav warriors are fine garrison troops in peace times but not much chop in a real battle. They will however deplete you castles food reserves very quickly and vastly reduce the amount of time a siege will take.

Lets say you have 2 pesants, 2 catapults, 1 arbalesters, 1 archers, 1 sword unit and 1 Halbarier/spear unit as a defensive army with a Castle and you get invaded by a superior force. You could retreat immediately to your stronghold, but you'll probably only last a year or two before it falls, not really long enough to raise a liberating force.

What you could do though is engineer what I call a "smart siege". Defend the province, and set up your army near the map edge. Have your Artillery, Archers and Arbalesters do some damage to the incoming enemy. If possible try and take out some of their best attacking troops. As they close in, withdraw your Catapults and Arbalesters as well as either your swords or Halb/spears depending on which is better. Throw your pesants at them or run them off towards the other side of the map in the hope they get chased down and killed. you want them to die. you want only your best troops in the Castle and not very many of those.

With the two catapults, one infantry unit and one arbalesters in the catle it'll hold out much longer. Probably 3-4 years which should give you enough time to raise a liberating force AND tie up their main army. If they try to storm the castle without artillery it'll cost them very dearly, as your catapults can fire over the walls, and you can station your arbalesters just outside the gate to volley at attackers as they approach then retreat them inside to pepper attackers once they break the gate then rush your infantry at them or retreat to the next gate.

In an ideal situation you'll have an Organ Gun or two (usually mercenary as the build requirements for this are nuts), a few catapults and a couple of elite infantry troops defending your castle only (dismounted royal knights are good for this). With a good stronghold you can hold out for many years against a siege, and you'll take a huge toll on any attacking army - sometimes to the point that they retreat and abandon the battle.

[Vladimir]

It's great fun to smash the horde against the fortress of Kazar.

[Jxrc]

From what I can tell, your eastern border is made up of Pomerania, Poland (you're playing Vanilla, right?), Hungary and Croatia. That sounds like a nice five province border to me, and with a buffer state to the NE, and two decent-to-good generals in the SE, you should probably be off pretty fine unless you further overextend yourself by advancing further

I'd leave the rebel provinces in the SE to the rebels - take the risk. Even if the Huns re-emerge, chances are they might be forced to stay in place with your armies on one side and the Byz on the other. Moreover, I wouldn't worry too much about the Byz, actually. Their stacks, and specially in Bulgaria, tend to consist of really lousy units (Slav infantry, mostly). Have you checked what kind of troops they have?

Did as you suggested and things worked out fine. The Hungarian did reappear with five stacks. They had no decent general so they just attacked once, got beaten badly and stayed idle since then. Byz attacked twice in Poland but with poor timing, once with a poor general and half-decent units (horse archers, byz infantry, the odd unit of vagarian guards, trebizon archers), once with a good general but nothing more than peasents and slav warriors so that it was not really a challenge to beat them each time. It now 1211 and I have not moved further east (except that I took Prussia from the Polish who now only have one province - Vorosomething the strip of land next to Poland). Hungarian went into civil war and only keep Wallachia (The Byz have taken Transylvania from the rebels).

On the other fronts, the Aragonese and Elmos are out and the Spanish have asked fro peace after they were pushed out of the Peninsula (they now own the Elmo Late Homeland: Granada, Morrocoo, Algeria, Tunisia and Cyrenaica).

Had taken all of Italy from the Sicilians and Papacy that was nicely left in the Papal States with just a few hunderd men to avoid constant resurgence). Unfortunately the idiot manage to get one peasant revolt and the next turn the Sicilian reappered beside the besieging rebels with five stacks of quality troops ... Seems that my plan to keep the papacy cornered has failed. I need to check how long the keep will hold - perhaps if I attack the Sicilians immediately I will have a chance to get rid of them before they kill the Pope... Wonder if I will be excommed if I win that battle (which is bound to be quite boring ...)

For the Byz, I have destroyed all their fleet (was amazed at my success rate in sea battles) and took Rhodes, Crete and Cyprus. I am now buzzy landing in weakly defended provinces, destroying all I can (even the citadel in Constantinople was razed to the ground) and moving out ....

As you can see, unless something very nasty occurs, the game is pretty much won.

[Innocentius]

As you can see, unless something very nasty occurs, the game is pretty much won.

The Horde?:beam:

[Jxrc]

The Horde?:beam:

I am not the one who will suffer the most ... Once they show up, they will run into the:

1) Byz (they own basically everything around the Black Sea - Khazar, Crimea, Kiev, Moldavia, Bulgaria, Constantinople, Trebizon, Georgia - plus Greece, Anatolia, Nicea and Rum)
2) Russian (all of Russia except the part owned by the Byz)
3) Egyprian (Armenia, Syria, Edessa and their normal homeland)

Even though the Horde has a tendency to be drawn to my lands just like by a magnet, I can hope that the Horde will have lost a great deal of its edge before we share a border (shortest routes would be Khazar, Kiev, Volosomething or Lithuania followed by Poland or Prussia) . Siege battles and rebellions should take their toll ...

Producing harbs and arbs in number juste in case since 1205 so I should be fine (but it could be quite time consuming to deal with them since I never auto-calc a battle - I understand that it is pointless against the Horde anyway) ...

Could invade Kahzar myself and stop it when it shows up but I am not up for another three-hour battle (did it a few weeks ago as the Polish and it was so boring)... I say let the AI factions deal with that sh...t !!!:smash: :smash: