And the Jackboots are Now On

[Crazed Rabbit]

Or, when the county sends a SWAT team to seize a child from his family so a doctor can apply ice to his forehead.

http://www.postindependent.com/article/20080108/VALLEYNEWS/248366321


County seizes son for medical care

Father says his family's rights were violated

By Pete Fowler
January 8, 2008

NEW CASTLE - The Garfield County All Hazards Response Team broke down Tom Shiflett's door Friday night and, following a court order, took his son for medical treatment.

The doctor's recommendation: Take Tylenol and apply ice to the bruises. The boy was back home a few hours later.

Authorities said they had reason to believe Shiflett mistreated his 11-year-old son, Jon, by failing to provide him proper medical care for a head injury. But Shiflett says his privacy and his rights were invaded, and that he has the right and the skill to treat his son himself. Shiflett, 62, said he served as a medic in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive.

"Who in the world puts a stipulation on how adequate a person is to care for an injury?" Shiflett asked.

Speaking about the incident from his home in the Apple Tree Park on Monday, Shiflett was very upset. Perhaps most offensive, Shiflett said, was that law enforcement didn't announce there was a warrant before breaking into his home south of New Castle.

"I would have let them in," he said. "It was traumatic to my children, and it's unnecessary."

His spouse, Tina, and his six of 10 kids who are still at home were shocked at the manner of entry. Tina said law enforcement, wearing masks, broke down their door with a battering ram and pointed guns in her children's faces.

"They didn't need to bash into my home and slam my kids to the floor," Tina said, adding later, "I think they get a kick out of this."

She said law enforcement threatened criminal charges should the family even try to follow Jon or find out where he was taken. Jon was returned hours later, around 2:30 a.m. Saturday.

"In all there was not one shred of evidence found that we had done anything wrong or that Jon had not been properly cared for at home," Tina said.

According to a copy of Jon's patient aftercare instructions, a physician recommended Jon drink fluids, take Tylenol, use ice and keep his cuts from his injury clean. Jon still had a nasty-looking black eye and visible bruising on his face Monday after having been hurt in a fall on Thursday.

Jon injured himself by grabbing onto the handle of a moving car his sister was driving and falling. Shiflett and his family said Shiflett ran down the street, checked Jon for injuries and brought him back into their home, where they prayed, applied ice to his head and monitored his condition.

Someone - possibly a neighbor - called paramedics. Shiflett said paramedics looked at Jon after coming through an open front door uninvited. Shiflett told them he didn't want them to treat Jon and asked them to leave.

Friday morning, caseworkers from the Garfield County Department of Social Services arrived. Shiflett allowed them to look at Jon briefly but refused to allow them to take his son for treatment or medical evaluation.

Ross Talbott, who owns the Apple Tree Mobile Home Park and rents to Shiflett, said, "I thought it was an incredibly stupid power move by people who went in there misinformed and ill-informed. I think they violated their personal rights, their constitutional rights and their rights to family."

Talbott also writes a freelance column for the Post Independent.

"I've been (Garfield County Sheriff Lou Vallario's) longtime supporter, but I tell you what, to send a SWAT team down there was just absolutely over the hill," he said. "Inappropriate is not nearly strong enough a word. It was gross irresponsibility and stupidity. ... Is this Russia? I don't know what we're coming to when they think your kid needs medical help and they send a SWAT team."

Community relations sheriff's deputy Tanny McGinnis said two deputies were first sent to notify Shiflett of a court order for his son's medical treatment and that Shiflett did not comply.

Phone messages to Vallario were not returned Monday afternoon.

A search warrant and order for medical treatment says there was good reason to believe Jon needed treatment. It states that two social services caseworkers tried to explain to Tom Shiflett they believed the boy needed medical treatment after observing injuries including a "huge hematoma" and a sluggish pupil. They offered to pay for treatment, and said they would have to obtain a court order for treatment if they couldn't get Shiflett's consent, the warrant says.

"Shiflett shouted at this worker and advised this worker that if he obtained a court order, he better 'bring an army,'" the warrant states.

A first responder with West Care Ambulance wrote in an affidavit that she and others in an ambulance crew also believed the boy needed medical treatment.

The responder wrote that paramedics left the residence for fear of their safety after Tom Shiflett refused to let them treat his son and became "verbally abusive" to the ambulance crew.

But Talbott said he was there when paramedics responded, and that Shiflett was not yelling or acting abusive. He only asked them to leave, Talbott said, and paramedics were in fact acting belligerent. Shiflett says authorities had no right to enter his home uninvited and without announcing they had a warrant.

"When American law allows federal and state agencies to come in a home and confiscate family, there is something wrong with our system," Shiflett said. "If I can find a law firm or lawyer that can take this pro bono, because I have no money, I'm going to sue everyone on that warrant."

Garfield County Director of Social Services Lynn Rennick said social services is legally required to intervene when it receives a report about possible mistreatment of children, and that sometimes court orders are necessary. She wouldn't discuss any specific case.

Asked what he thought of being taken for medical treatment after the break-in, Jon said, "I think it's ridiculous. There's no reason for it."

Fascist scum.

CR

[Vladimir]

More faith healers? What makes the father different than a Shaman? The police force may have been excessive but it's hard to generate sympathy for those types of freaks.

[lars573]

Wow that's a lot of incompetence there. Starting with the father. Who's obviously a nutcase, and deficent as a parent. And kept going with the moron social workers who took him at his word. Finishing with police who wanted an excuse to break out the tactical team.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There's obviously something going on there we don't know about. As Lars says, plenty of stupidity to go around.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Thats just not a good thing all around.

First, I don't want to outright condemn CPS (or whatever they called it) for responding to the scene of what they may have thought was a seemingly violent father and his hurt son. I think that they suspected abuse for a neighbor to call in something like that. We need to see if there is any history of abuse or the speculation of abuse before we can truly condemn the police action.

...but I will anyway. It is incredibly scary that a swat team can just burst into your house violently with guns drawn. The response was wildly inappropriate.

[Crazed Rabbit]

More faith healers? What makes the father different than a Shaman? The police force may have been excessive but it's hard to generate sympathy for those types of freaks.

What a #(*$&##$ load of bull. He did the same thing doctors said to do, and prayed a little. He was a medic in a war.


Starting with the father. Who's obviously a nutcase, and deficent as a parent.

Again, a steaming load of bull you've got nothing to back with.

CR

[Lemur]

I've read of legitimate cases in which a child's safety was endangered by a parent's religion. There were a couple of very serious Christian Science cases in the nineties, for example.

This is not one of those cases, not by a long shot. Sounds like the state overreacted. Massively. They owe this man a new front door, and probably some fines to help them remember not to do this in the future.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

We use SWAT teams too much these days, I think.

[Tribesman]

We use SWAT teams too much these days, I think.
Its the price you pay for having a lot of armed citizens .

[Lemur]

If this becomes a gun control thread, can somebody please lock it fast?

[Gregoshi]

If this becomes a gun control thread, can somebody please lock it fast?

Lock and load fellas!

[Xiahou]

Its the price you pay for having a lot of armed citizens .
That has crap to do with nothing. We've always been an armed society, over-militarized police forces are a much more recent phenomenon.


Or, when the county sends a SWAT team to seize a child from his family so a doctor can apply ice to his forehead.Even setting aside the issue of whether the state or the parents should determine what's best for a child, the use of a SWAT team was totally inappropriate. Did they consider sending over a few uniformed officers to knock on the door first? Doubt it.

Whether he's a good father or not is a separate issue from the use of excessive force.

[Vladimir]

Community relations sheriff's deputy Tanny McGinnis said two deputies were first sent to notify Shiflett of a court order for his son's medical treatment and that Shiflett did not comply.

This guy is recalling his 'Nam days, has 10 kids, and refused medical treatment for one of them. That's not a family, it's an infantry squad. Look at in in that context. Oh, and the above. The forced entry seems more logical in light of the court order. Whether or not the court was in the right remains to be seen.

[Tribesman]

That has crap to do with nothing.
It has everything to do with it , do countries with less heavily armed citizenry commonly use SWAT teams if they think the householder (or caravan holder in this case)may be a bit nuts ?


Did they consider sending over a few uniformed officers to knock on the door first? Doubt it.

Errrrrrr...from the articletwo deputies were first sent to notify Shiflett of a court order for his son's medical treatment and that Shiflett did not comply.
damn , words can be hard to read sometimes when they are so well hidden in plain view :dizzy2:

[Xiahou]

Errrrrrr...from the articletwo deputies were first sent to notify Shiflett of a court order for his son's medical treatment and that Shiflett did not comply.
damn , words can be hard to read sometimes when they are so well hidden in plain view :dizzy2:
I meant to serve the warrant.. As long you're enjoying yourself, it's all good though. :wink:

[Blodrast]

This guy is recalling his 'Nam days, has 10 kids, and refused medical treatment for one of them. That's not a family, it's an infantry squad. Look at in in that context. Oh, and the above. The forced entry seems more logical in light of the court order. Whether or not the court was in the right remains to be seen.

First of all, your "shaman/faith healer" comment holds zero weight, since, as the article says, "he was a medic [...] in Vietnam".

Secondly, I think he was perfectly entitled to make a judgment _whether_ his son needed medical help or not. I've had several medical situations in my life, and I didn't go to the hospital/ doctor. Sometimes my parents didn't think it was necessary, and sometimes they did but I didn't want to (I was old enough to discern). And I can assure you that some of them _looked_ (and some were) pretty serious. But they were intelligent and capable enough to treat me without needing to go to a doctor. Such cases do exist.

I find that it's more likely that this is a case of some neighbour seeing the child with some nasty bruises and going for the paranoid "OMG child abuse/think of the children" thing, and he called it in.

[Vladimir]

Again: Court order.

In your opinion I would be an OB/GYN.

[Papewaio]

Lets see, paramedics say they were threatened, the social workers say they were threatened and that they legally (you know the laws that you voted in as a democratic nation) states that they have to source a court order if they believe a child was being abused, the deputies were ignored... so it seems it went through every escalation point possible.

Now lets review the facts. So far the only thing we know is that the son has a badly bruised eye. Now the circumstances to me seem strange: "Jon injured himself by grabbing onto the handle of a moving car his sister was driving and falling. Shiflett and his family said Shiflett ran down the street, checked Jon for injuries and brought him back into their home, where they prayed, applied ice to his head and monitored his condition."

I'd like to see if there were any eye witnesses to that event for confirmation. I'd expect a lot of grazing on the limbs as well as the bruised eye. Maybe there is and the article doesn't list the full context. But there is a fairly large chance that either the reason for him running for the car or that it wasn't a car door or house door or any other inanimate object that caused the problem. If this is in fact damage done by child abuse what chain of events would you expect adhered to to resolve this issue?

=][=

Now assuming everything was right and the kid had a stupid accident as kids are wont to do. Parents will get upset and agitated when their kids are injured. Medics and social workers should understand that and look to the parents concerns on this too. After all the parents should be aided not obstructed in raising their children. And boys in particular tend to learn from one thing only ... pain.

[FactionHeir]

Asked what he thought of being taken for medical treatment after the break-in, Jon said, "I think it's ridiculous. There's no reason for it."

I think that summarizes it.

[Peasant Phill]

"Shiflett shouted at this worker and advised this worker that if he obtained a court order, he better 'bring an army,'" the warrant states.


He can't complain, he asked for it.

Now seriously, you can argue that the state doesn't have the right to invade someones privacy like that and potentially cause more damage than there originally was. However, like it has been mentioned before, it was the court who ordered that the child be brought to a doctor. Denying the courts the power to make decisions based on laws is renouncing the American (and most other) governmental system entirely. Apparently the man would rather live in an anarchy.
I agree that the SWAT team was probably excessive but may not have been entirely unwarranted.

On a side note, who would decline his child a free medical examination? and after that a mandatory (free) medical examination? Or this man is really stubborn, or ...

[Tribesman]

So the father says that he gets violent , the police say that he gets violent .
So no dispute there , it would suggest that reasonable precautions may be needed in serving the court order just like what happened .
The police call to his trailer , no luck , the police swat team call to his trailer , no luck , so they break the door down ...OMG its like Russia :dizzy2: though of course the wife is today comparing the police actions with Nazis so perhaps the outrage factor is being upped .

Now I could understand people getting outraged at this , if perhaps they had carted off the daughter and charged her with causing injury through driving without due care and attention , but outrage over the actual police action ....bollox .

[Proletariat]

We should send in the SWAT teams when we see negligent parents taking a night off from cooking a home made meal and ordering Papa John's or going to McDonald's to feed their children!

:furious3:

[Odin]

We should send in the SWAT teams when we see negligent parents taking a night off from cooking a home made meal and ordering Papa John's or going to McDonald's to feed their children!

:furious3:

haha thats not half bad.

Tribes has a point that there seems to be evidence of the father being a loose cannon and like it or not if there is an inclination of abuse the authorities have to investigate. I dont condone the method used, the swat team etc but I'd rather have a broken door, a hurt ego, then another neglect/dead child story.

However I am troubled by the trend toward disregard of civil liberties and the ability to live ones life on thier own terms. This story presents a lot of conflicts, Im not real sure which way to go on it.

[Tribesman]

Tribes has a point that there seems to be evidence of the father being a loose cannon
Well the evidence is that although he was arrested for chasing somone down the street with an axe the prosecution was not carried through as apparently "making your day" makes prosecutions for axe wielding somewhat difficult . Though it does indeed suggest that the individual may be prone to violence , and when linked to the alledged threats made by the invividual it does rather undermine the "outrage" about the deployment of a swat team to the trailer park .

[Husar]

Tribesman is correct.
as always. :laugh4:

[Crazed Rabbit]

The police never simply knocked on his door with a warrant. Instead they went in pointed submachine guns around a house full of children. People have died that way, when SWAT teams arrest nonviolent and cooperative suspects.

What disgusts me is the people who proclaim guns are bad and people with guns in public will just make things worse, then support a bunch of military commando wanna-bes breaking into a house with children.

There was no evidence of abuse. And yes, the court order may have been legal, but that doesn't make it right. There is a far difference between the two, but all too often I see people just see that some action is technically legal and let it go. And people are surprised civil rights are being harmed across the world?

People should have a right to get angry when government officials walk into their house and say they want to take a child away for a very minor injury. We shouldn't have to lie down like serfs and agree to whatever the government decrees without protest.

CR

[Odin]

The police never simply knocked on his door with a warrant. Instead they went in pointed submachine guns around a house full of children. People have died that way, when SWAT teams arrest nonviolent and cooperative suspects.

What disgusts me is the people who proclaim guns are bad and people with guns in public will just make things worse, then support a bunch of military commando wanna-bes breaking into a house with children.

There was no evidence of abuse. And yes, the court order may have been legal, but that doesn't make it right. There is a far difference between the two, but all too often I see people just see that some action is technically legal and let it go. And people are surprised civil rights are being harmed across the world?

People should have a right to get angry when government officials walk into their house and say they want to take a child away for a very minor injury. We shouldn't have to lie down like serfs and agree to whatever the government decrees without protest.

CR

Well yes. CR is starting to sway me on this one. There should have been an opportunity to present the guy with the court order in a civil manner. The SWAT team is overkill, regardless if its technically authorized.

[The Black Ship]

"Shiflett shouted at this worker and advised this worker that if he obtained a court order, he better 'bring an army,'" the warrant states.

A first responder with West Care Ambulance wrote in an affidavit that she and others in an ambulance crew also believed the boy needed medical treatment.

The responder wrote that paramedics left the residence for fear of their safety after Tom Shiflett refused to let them treat his son and became "verbally abusive" to the ambulance crew.

But Talbott said he was there when paramedics responded, and that Shiflett was not yelling or acting abusive. He only asked them to leave, Talbott said, and paramedics were in fact acting belligerent. Shiflett says authorities had no right to enter his home uninvited and without announcing they had a warrant.

So we have an independent witness for the family, at least concerning the paramedics that it was the authorities provoking the incident. So there's at least a question mark that all the angst was coming from the father.

I also thinks it's queer that numerous social workers, and paramedics were so off on their assessment concerning the seriousness of this kids wounds. I mean Tylenol! C'mon, at least make it look good by writing some prescriptions, it would've made all this fuss seem more justified. Sounds like they were justifying there conclusion that there was abuse going on, and this was a convenient way to get the kid alone.

This is such a poor article to come up with all these conclusions I've been reading. Where's the confirmation that the police served the warrant before the assault, as the sheriff's office implies? Or is the father right that only after did he know they had a legal right?

[Tribesman]

The police never simply knocked on his door with a warrant.
They claim they knocked on his door and explained that a warrant was being issued and would be served , and they claim that the response team knocked on the door with the warrant to serve it and they only broke down the door when the trailerholders didn't answer .

Instead they went in pointed submachine guns around a house full of children.
Thats standard practice for a swat team isn't it , regardless if there are children in the house or not , if it was ordinary everyday patrolmen breaking down the door would they not have been pointing their weapons ?
OK maybe they would have only been pointing handguns , shotguns or AR-15s but whats the big difference ?


What disgusts me is the people who proclaim guns are bad and people with guns in public will just make things worse, then support a bunch of military commando wanna-bes breaking into a house with children.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: oh the irony of that . Isn't the increased use of swat teams a symtom that more people with guns mean more precautionary measures by law enforcement officers .
If every homeskoolin anti-government trailer park resident has the right to defend his trailer with a gun then every law enforcement officer who wants to get access to that trailer is going to come with more guns .

[ICantSpellDawg]

I'm on the fence about this. It seems as though the Social Services were in the right to investigate, but they dropped the ball as far as the extraction goes - going overkill.

Remember Wako? Clearly crazy people that needed to be protected from themselves - but the government dropped the ball in the handling. We are lucky nobody got hurt.

Lets make a compromise! The state gets the kid and the dad can sue the state for lost property (son)

[Crazed Rabbit]

Isn't the increased use of swat teams a symtom that more people with guns mean more precautionary measures by law enforcement officers .

No.


If every homeskoolin anti-government trailer park resident has the right to defend his trailer with a gun then every law enforcement officer who wants to get access to that trailer is going to come with more guns .

Or, gee, instead of acting like wanna-be commandos intent on forcing their way in, they could have just not acted like condescending :daisy: from the start insistent on getting their way and making this guy do as they said.

Oh, and just a couple days ago, a mother with her children at home was murdered by a SWAT team in Ohio. The police aren't saying she acted aggressively at all.
http://www.limaohio.com/story.php?IDnum=47620

These situations are only high risk because the police, to make themselves feel big and get federal money for new toys from the gov't, make them so!

CR

[Vladimir]

If every homeskoolin anti-government trailer park resident has the right to defend his trailer with a gun then every law enforcement officer who wants to get access to that trailer is going to come with more guns.

This is where you loose it, maybe the smilie spam preceding it is a good indicator. You'll find many more examples of academic excellence than good ole incest in home schooling families.

[ICantSpellDawg]

No.


Or, gee, instead of acting like wanna-be commandos intent on forcing their way in, they could have just not acted like condescending a$$holes from the start insistent on getting their way and making this guy do as they said.

Oh, and just a couple days ago, a mother with her children at home was murdered by a SWAT team in Ohio. The police aren't saying she acted aggressively at all.
http://www.limaohio.com/story.php?IDnum=47620

These situations are only high risk because the police, to make themselves feel big and get federal money for new toys from the gov't, make them so!

CR

That was in a bad neighborhood in a crack house. I didn't read where things weren't justified in that case, just that they got out of hand. Crack house busts have been notoriously violent in the past - a SWAT team is usually necessary .

[Tribesman]

Or, gee, instead of acting like wanna-be commandos intent on forcing their way in, they could have just not acted like condescending a$$holes from the start insistent on getting their way and making this guy do as they said.


Errrrr...they was enforcing a law order in a normal manner , a normal manner with precautions for a situation that their commanders had deemed appropriate .

But hey rabbit , answer this one (though its two questions) will ya or was it too hard for ya...... Thats standard practice for a swat team isn't it , regardless if there are children in the house or not , if it was ordinary everyday patrolmen breaking down the door would they not have been pointing their weapons ?
OK maybe they would have only been pointing handguns , shotguns or AR-15s but whats the big difference ?



Oh, and just a couple days ago, a mother with her children at home was murdered by a SWAT team in Ohio.
Errr ....a woman in a crack house got killed and her child that was being raised in a crack house got injured ....oh the outrage , think of the children stop armed police raiding drug dealers:dizzy2:


These situations are only high risk because the police, to make themselves feel big and get federal money for new toys from the gov't, make them so!

Are you calling the police weapons penis extensions ?
Whatever happened to the rabbit with the guns are not toys and their size doesn't matter line .
The situations are only high risk because there is a significant chance that the people in the house are armed so the police approach the situation as if the people in the house are armed .:yes:



This is where you loose it, maybe the smilie spam preceding it is a good indicator. You'll find many more examples of academic excellence than good ole incest in home schooling families.
I lose it Vlad ? You appear to have lost it , where do you find a link between home school and incest ?

[Vladimir]

I lose it Vlad ? You appear to have lost it , where do you find a link between home school and incest ?

Ahem, ah, :nervous: (damn), I didn't say that.


But no. Trailer park jokes = incest jokes.

[Husar]

Well ,one might say that this was indeed superfluous because the armed neighbors could have democratically shot the guy themselves, seeing the state do this is of course very worrying and one has to wonder about the state of democracy in the US.
That the police thinks they have a right to do as the law says and even sway the chances into their favour is quite upsetting, one of the checks and balances of the american democracy aftwer all is that in case of a dictatorial rise the citizens can quickly shoot all policemen, the dictator and the rest of the evil guys and set up a new democratic government. By actually being superior to the average gun-armed citizen/criminal the police are seriously endangering the constitutional checks and balances of the United States of America and to prevent that from going any further, the police forces should be dissolved and taxes lowered accordingly.