TWFanatic's Excelant Ostia Question

[cmacq]

Originally Posted by TWFanatic
...reminds me of something I've been curious about for a long time but have yet to ask. Why is the famous Roman port at Ostia not represented in EB? You cannot even train a fleet in that province if I remember correctly.

Thank you for your time.

Sorry about that I can't spell worth a damn.

[pezhetairoi]

Hmm, wasn't Ostia only really and truly renovated and upgraded in Imperial times? If I recall (can't for the life of me remember from where), Ostia in Republican times was pretty much the same as the rest of Rome, and it was definitely never a naval port IIRC. Which would explain why Campania is a naval province, since Misenum is geographically in the Campania region if I'm not wrong...

When the Romans disbanded all their fleets save two, they based them at Misenum in the west and Ravenna in the east, so Ostia was out of the loop once again. Handling the traffic for an entire capital/most populous city in the known world was probably already all Ostia could handle without having to build warships too...

[cmacq]

Yes, I think the port was build north of the town of Ostia expanded at least twice in the early Imperial period?

This is a photo of the old town based on the old Roman camp and later colony. The Tiber runs through the center of the photo with the sea at the top looking west. The current coast line is much further west of what it was in the 1st century AD.

http://www.ostia-antica.org/photo/aerial.jpg

The port of Ostia or Portus was built on the north side of the Tiber, and I think just under the wing.

And...

you may want to check out this movie???

just click, [Movie: from Porta Romana to the Theatre (broadband only; 9 Mb; right click to Save target as ...) ]


http://www.ostia-antica.org/vinci/vinci.htm

And there is this.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4193310953290210113

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6168642693535166590

Portus was entirely a mercantile port, no military or ship building use at all.

[TWFanatic]

Thanks, Cmacq.

I seem to recall that triremes and quinqueremes were built at Ostia during the First Punic War (modeled after a wrecked Carthaginian model according to Polybius). It was there they so famously trained their crew while building the ships by practicing rowing on land and such.

[cmacq]

Thanks, Cmacq.

I seem to recall that triremes and quinqueremes were built at Ostia during the First Punic War (modeled after a wrecked Carthaginian model according to Polybius). It was there they so famously trained their crew while building the ships by practicing rowing on land and such.

To tell the truth, I'm not familar with that. Which book and para of Polybius was that? If so, that would have been done somewhere near the old town. I think the old port was the northern edge of the old town along the Tiber? However, it was not actually a formal port.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

Just to add my 5 cents worth...

Misenum only grew up as a naval base with the advent of Octavians war against Sextus Pompey. Lacking a proper naval base in the Tyrrhenian Sea Octavian sent Agrippa to Misenum to train a fleet. By connecting two inland lakes Agrippa was able to train without Pompey interrupting and bringing on a battle. Eventually a canal was built to connect the harbour and lakes, forming the first Roman naval base on Italy's Western coast.

Prior to Pompey's campaign against the pirates the navy was very much neglected by the Roman senate in favour of the army. When a fleet was required it could be obtained from allies such as Rhodes. Obviously the Romani had a fleet, but it wasn't powerful.

At the time of the social war (91-88bc) I thought the roman fleet was based in Ostia and some campanian towns such as Herculeaneum.

I have no idea where the main fleet-building infrastructure was located pre-principate, but I didn't think it was Misenum, (ie. I thought it was at Ostia).:wall:

Please correct me if I'm way off.

[Atilius]

I seem to recall that triremes and quinqueremes were built at Ostia during the First Punic War (modeled after a wrecked Carthaginian model according to Polybius). It was there they so famously trained their crew while building the ships by practicing rowing on land and such.

This passage (1.20-1.21) says nothing about where the fleet was built or where the crews were trained. For several reasons, it's most likely that this was done in southern Italy.

The Romans first crossed the straits in 264 using a fleet of triremes and pentekonters borrowed from Taras, Locri, Elea, and Neapolis. This indicates that shipbuilding expertise existed in these places. The Roman fleet mentioned by Polybios was constructed very quickly; Pliny says in sixty days. How that could be accomplished without experienced naval shipwrights and shipbuilding facilities, I can't imagine.

We also know that the towns mentioned above were among those referred to as Socii Navales or naval allies. Rather than supply alae to the Roman army, they contributed ships and naval manpower.

Finally, Ostia was a river port. Basing of a fleet of 100 quinqueremes and 20 triremes there, in addition to handling normal commercial traffic doesn't seem feasible.

[Geoffrey S]

Wasn't it only really given military attention when pirates became a real menace in the first century B.C.? Certainly it served more as an extended commercial port of Rome in EBs timeframe, at the mouth of the Tiber, and I can't say I've come across anything pointing to it being used primarily as a military port or as a military shipbuilding area.

[Goth47]

Thanks, Cmacq.

I seem to recall that triremes and quinqueremes were built at Ostia during the First Punic War (modeled after a wrecked Carthaginian model according to Polybius). It was there they so famously trained their crew while building the ships by practicing rowing on land and such.

Dont forget though that EB starts before the 1st punic war and the romans only ever became serious about building a fleet after the war had started.
Hence there shouldnt really be a fleet building facility at Ostia at the game start, there should only be a trading facility.

Thanks
Goth

[cmacq]

Found this:

Dionysius of Halicarnassus

The river widens considerably as it reaches the sea and forms large bays, like the best sea harbours. And, most surprising of all, it is not cut off from its mouth by a barrier of sea sand, which is the fate even of many large rivers. Ships with oars, however large, and merchantmen with sails up to 3,000 [amphorae] capacity enter the mouth itself and row or are towed up to Rome; but larger ships ride at anchor outside the mouth and unload and reload with the help of river vessels.

This map shows the relationship between Ostia, on your right, and Portus, to your left. Again this was in the early Imperial period.

http://www.ostia-antica.org/users/valkvisuals/fotos/kaart_kust_oud.jpg


N-----S

I also found a referrence to a pirate attack in 68 BC, Ostia was sacked, the port was set on fire, a consular war fleet destroyed, and two prominent senators kidnapped.

[marodeur]

As far as I know, Ostia most of the time was a trading port, especially later on importing crops from egypt and elsewhere to feed the ever growing population of rome. I guess there were some warships stationened at Ostia from time to time, and probably ostia even was a warship-construction-site during the punic wars, but I think in EB it is best represented as a pure trading port, because there were nearly always other, more important naval bases.

[TWFanatic]

Fair enough. After further research, it seems indeed true that Ostia was only a harbor of commerce and trade, not a naval port. EB is right once again. ~:thumb: