Assassinating senators

[Quirinus]

What happens if all family members of SPQR die before the civil war erupts? (Say, by assassins.) Does Rome become a rebel city? Will Senate missions still exist?

[Caeser The III]

it doesnt turn into a rebel city.Someone else in the royale SPQR family wil take the old ones place,soooooo, you'll still get tasks

[Quirinus]

No, I meant what if all of them get scythed by Pluto? With other factions, you normally get a 'Faction Destroyed' scroll, and any remaining cities and troops turn rebel. Does it happen with the SPQR?

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Nope, peculiarly, if all the males die then I believe the faction simply carries on living without any living member of the senatorial family to run it. Their family tree does have the possibility of regrowing though, so long as there are unmarried females in the family - this allows suitors to marry in and continue the line.

~:)

[Barbarian]

A new family members are being spawned for them. I killed all Senate (did this to remove opponents for senate ranks at first) and every family member. They still had a faction leader and faction heir all the time. I just kept on assassinating them, killed some 8 leaders and 8 heirs.

Maybe, the problem was, that I had only 3 high level assassins, so I probably didn't kill them in the same turn. Or more believable: they have no leader and heir for the present turn, but int the next turn, a new pair appears.

PS: I got all the senate offices after that:laugh4:

[Quirinus]

I see... what happens if some faction, like, say, Gaul swooped down and conquered Rome? What happens to the Senate then?

[Paradox]

I see... what happens if some faction, like, say, Gaul swooped down and conquered Rome? What happens to the Senate then?
It will still show the Senate Rank scroll, just without S.P.Q.R. I remember eliminating the Senate and the Scipii during my first civil war, than I checked the Senate scroll and saw three Brutii family members listed.

[Quirinus]

So, if, early in the game, Gaul swooped down on the Julii and the SPQR, the Scipii and the Brutii will no longer get Senate missions?

[Paradox]

So, if, early in the game, Gaul swooped down on the Julii and the SPQR, the Scipii and the Brutii will no longer get Senate missions?
That, I'm not sure about. If you're dying to find out, you could always use the money cheat and pay factions into attacking Rome.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

So, if, early in the game, Gaul swooped down on the Julii and the SPQR, the Scipii and the Brutii will no longer get Senate missions?I believe that the senate missions will cease - just as they would should another Roman faction wipe them out. Also, with the senate destroyed, I would predict that the other Roman factions will lose their ability to have to wait for civil war circumstances to be met before they can declare war upon each other.

Unfortunately the latter I'm not sure about though - nuggets of information I have read in the past suggest that there some sort of coding preventing non-player factions swooping down on the SPQR. Due to this, I believe that nobody has as of yet experienced the destruction of the SPQR at the hands of another faction.

~:)

[Pannonian]

You can always spam give_trait and character_reset to allow your assassins to wipe out the SPQR family tree in a single turn, and see what happens. Relevant traits:

Girls
LaxPersonalSecuity
ReligiousMania
IanR
VictorRomanVirtue
Trusting
HarshRuler

[Quirinus]

I believe that the senate missions will cease - just as they would should another Roman faction wipe them out. Also, with the senate destroyed, I would predict that the other Roman factions will lose their ability to have to wait for civil war circumstances to be met before they can declare war upon each other.

Unfortunately the latter I'm not sure about though - nuggets of information I have read in the past suggest that there some sort of coding preventing non-player factions swooping down on the SPQR. Due to this, I believe that nobody has as of yet experienced the destruction of the SPQR at the hands of another faction.

~:)
I see...... well, doesn't that give an unfair advantage to the Roman players, or, at least, the Julii? Or am I understanding you wrongly?

Has anyone played a campaign in which a non-Roman faction invaded Italy from the north? Or is that prevented by coding, as Omanes Alexandrapolites said?

[mrdun]

I suppose that Gaul could take over Julii like Greece could Brutii, Carthage Scipii. Just none can attack the Senate

[Paradox]

None can attack the senate because none are able to, the senate are under the protection (border-wise) of the Scipii and the Julii, while the Brutii are off preventing Greek expansion.

[Barbarian]

It wouldn't be so hard to test if this is a hard coded feature or just a strategic advantage of SPQR. Would require some modding though. My suggestion:

1) You should take the Julii for your campaign, as they are the only ones preventing a land attack on Rome. Naval invasion is almost impossible.
2) Abandon all your cities in Italy, and sail to one of the closest rebel settlements.
3) You must reach and take the settlement before your former cities fall int Gaul hands or even worse: start to rebel. If you are successful, you have a new capital out of Italy, while Gauls have all your previous cities. It means, they are living as close to the Rome as possible, the way for destroying senate is open. See what happens.

The huge and well trained army of Senate + Reinforcements from Brutii and Scipii can be a hard nut for Gauls. To ensure their victory, some modding needed:

1) give Gauls a huge amount of starting money.
2) do the opposite, or think of any new disadvantages for Britons and Germans, as they always threaten the Gauls, and could take their attention away from conquering Rome.
3) make the upkeep of Roman units unbearable, to prevent the Roman factions from recruiting new troops for the battle against Gauls. You are a Roman family to, so, you will either need to disband any roman soldiers and use mercenaries instead, or simply use money cheat.
4) Mod extra high stats for barbaric units, like, charge 35, attack 45, defence 50, to ensure that they win all battles. Of course, units for britons, germans, and gauls are quite similar at the start, so other barbarian factions will be strong too. However, as I said , Gauls will have the most money. Try not to get in their way, btw.
After doing all of this, you should see whether Gauls attack Rome, or ignore the senate and go for Brutii or Scipii. Or maybe they will keep away from invading Italy any further.

[Paradox]

Yes, but what if they outlaw you before the Gauls manage to siege Rome? You'll probably get a message like "Take Arretium or you will be outlawed", if that happens, than the whole operation of the senate being destroyed before any Roman family is outlawed will fail.

I'm going to try this right now.

[Barbarian]

Yes, but what if they outlaw you before the Gauls manage to siege Rome? You'll probably get a message like "Take Arretium or you will be outlawed"

If that happens, I will start each campaign by abandoning my capital - starting the civil war at the very beginning of the campaign would be very useful. Player could destroy other roman factions before they become large and strong + take the Rome in the first few turns.

[Paradox]

Just played the campaign, abandoned all my starting cities and fled to Segesta. The answer is no, the Gauls can NEVER defeat S.P.Q.R, I know this is fact. I gave them most of the money I had, they came with armies larger than mine but despite this, were unable to compete with one Senate faction heir who had less troops. They allied with the Carthaginians and guess what, I see Carthaginian family members and leaders running around the peninsula and it's getting crowded in here.

As for the other Celtic factions, Germania are allied with Gaul and are too busy with the Britons while Spain are at war with no one currently. So than I start undermining the Roman families who are supporting the senate by buying their cities, I bought Croton and all cities in Sicily, cutting them off from the Senate capital.

The strange part is, none of them even engaged with any Senate armies when they were right in front of them!! This is definately hard-coded.

I'll see if I can take pictures of this and show you guys.

[mrdun]

The Org, taking you boldly where no other has gone before.

[Quirinus]

I see. So basically, the non-Roman factions can and will take the families' cities, but is prevented from taking on the SPQR no matter what?

[Punicus]

That's a really interesting find. But maybe it's because CA figured that none of the non-Roman, non-player factions would be able to attack Rome in the first place. Heck, in all of my campaigns, I've never seen a Roman city taken over by a non-Roman faction that wasn't me.

[Quirinus]

Yeah, me neither, but it seems a little too unfair to make it hardcoded. You don't see a hardcoded restriction against Numidians or Seleucids taking Alexandria, though they usually don't in vanilla.

[Punicus]

True, but Alexandria doesn't have nearly as much importance in the game than Rome. Another possibility is that they wanted to save the ultimate battle for Rome with the SPQR for the player to do. I don't know, just brainstorming, but I'm still quite surprised that the SPQR are invinsible to anyone except you even though there possibly are good reasons for it.

[Barbarian]

Well, I am playing a passive campaign now (I only defend), so, I will let one of the AI factions take over the map (I am Greece). Let's see if they leave the Rome standing...

I hope only that romans won't be the ones who conquer the map :wall:

At the moment, only Julii are strong. And the force in the east is strong: The alliance of Parthia-Pontus are destroying the Egypt and Scythia. If they win, they will surely take ove the rest of the map.

I am supporting non-roman factions by giving them money and settlements.

Ps: I have never seen Egypt so weak and beaten by the AI factions.

[Quirinus]

I've thought of something: has anyone tried to exploit this by giving a vital but pathetic region to the SPQR as a buffer, say, Noricum to defend against the Germans/Dacians?

[Paradox]

I've thought of something: has anyone tried to exploit this by giving a vital but pathetic region to the SPQR as a buffer, say, Noricum to defend against the Germans/Dacians?
The question is, would it make a difference? How could there possibly be any family members there? Why would they bother reinforcing it?

[Paradox]

The Org, taking you boldly where no other has gone before.
Yeh, you got that right! :thumbsup:

Think outside the box.

[Quirinus]

The question is, would it make a difference? How could there possibly be any family members there? Why would they bother reinforcing it?
By your own experiments, non-Roman factions are hardcoded against attacking the SPQR, correct? Since your experiments seem to indicate that they don't only avoid Rome the city but also SPQR troops, I would imagine that it's the faction that they are hardcoded against attacking. Hence giving the SPQR settlement would mean that it is secure, no matter the size of the garrison.

[Paradox]

By your own experiments, non-Roman factions are hardcoded against attacking the SPQR, correct? Since your experiments seem to indicate that they don't only avoid Rome the city but also SPQR troops, I would imagine that it's the faction that they are hardcoded against attacking. Hence giving the SPQR settlement would mean that it is secure, no matter the size of the garrison.
Oh, I see what you're saying. Maybe I should try this in the prologue, it would get most of the factions a little more involved. I can imagine Thracians, Greeks, and Gauls all having open routes to Rome, all I probably have to do is transfer to Sicily and stay out of it.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

I don't believe that the SPQR actually accept any foreign regions from other factions - they haven't seemed to when I've tried it with them, despite my offer's generosity. This may be related to their invulnerability and its potential use as an exploit should this happen.

~:)

[Paradox]

Not in the prologue, they were fools in the prologue. ;)

I can see why they made it difficult to eliminate the leading faction of Rome, but I believe that kind of limits the ways of undermining the senate's authority for more power. Hopefully, someone here can prove otherwise.

[Barbarian]

I don't believe that the SPQR actually accept any foreign regions from other factions - they haven't seemed to when I've tried it with them, despite my offer's generosity. This may be related to their invulnerability and its potential use as an exploit should this happen.

~:)

I don't remember in which RTW version it was, but I gave SPQR some 15 settlements (almost all I got at the moment). However, I didn't continue that campaign long after that: The garrisons from all my cities still remained, and their upkeep ate my founds in 2 turns.

If I remember right, you can even download savegames at the TW center, in which players have given huge territories for SPQR, for example, all of Egypt under SPQR control etc.

But have you thought about the opposite: SPQR also doesn't go and conquer settlements from Gauls, for example. All they do is walk around Rome, even though they have one of the largest and strongest armies at the start of the game. Not saying that it is wrong - their main task is to guard Rome, but the very fact shows that there are some limitations for the aggressive AI when it deals with SPQR

[Good Ship Chuckle]

SPQR is too strong at the beginning, to be aggressive and push around other factions. I think CA made a good call when they put SPQR on a leash.

[Barbarian]

Ok, if we are talking about it again, I think that SPQR is heavily coded. I gave all the other cities in Italy to hostile barbarians, who have strong full stack armies there now, and none of them is even trying to do something against them.
Furthermore, have anyone seen AI factions attacking Roman starting regions? It seems that there is even some code preventing that, because in my current campaign Britons are much stronger than Julii, so they took all Julii settlements, but their armies stopped near Aretium and just stood there, although the last two Julii cities are the the most ill defended ones. Britons easily took settlements, which had half a stack garrisons, so it is weird that they decided to stop, when there were only 2 cities, with one unit in each, left. :inquisitive:

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

I do remember somebody else performing a similar sort of "test" in the past Barbarian. I believe that they gave the Romans at the start simple villages with no infrastructure with the hope that it would slow them down.

In the end the Romans were still surviving, albeit a little on the weak side. The other factions outside of Rome had, oddly, not seized their chance to sweep down and were simply sitting there.

Sadly, I can't find the post. Sorry ~:(

I'm not sure if this applies differently when the player is an exposed Roman faction though. Some tests may need to be determined to see if this is the case or whether Roman invulnerability only applies to the AI.

~:)