Archery

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Who here shoots? What bow do you have, what equipment do you use?

I have a Martin X-200 Recurve, as seen here.
https://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6416/x2002jl2.jpg



It's only a 45# draw weight, but it pulls evenly and smoothly, and shoots far. It's very accurate, and I really enjoy shooting with it. I use wood arrows, and no other equipment, though I might be looking into a quiver soon. It's a little annoying carrying around arrows by hand.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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We have plans...no dreams...no no long term plans :yes: with some friends to gather and learn it the Ottoman way. There are people practising it, from the making of the composite bow on.
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[Fragony]

.and learn it the Ottoman way.

That's easy is called missing.

Why use wooden arrow Edyz EmfM? Titanium all the way, ultralight and will shoot right through a steel plate.

[Dutch_guy]

Why use wooden arrow Edyz?

Wrong person Frag.

:balloon2:

[Sigurd]

I did archery when I was .. eh.. younger.

I can't remember the specifics but I know it was a longbow (as in not composite or recurve) and I think it was a King bow. I had both wooden arrows and steel tipped carbon arrows. I personally liked the carbon arrows as they went farther and was more accurate.

I don't think it matters what the shaft is made of, but the carbon arrows were slimmer and it had a screw-on steel tip as in opposite to my wooden arrows with a soft metal (tin?) wrapped around the wood tip.
I bet you could get titanium tips for wooden shafts today...

Hmm, to bad I have no sons. Maybe one of my daughters would be interested in archery? It would be the perfect excuse to take up the sport again.

[Sigurd]

I use wood arrows, and no other equipment, though I might be looking into a quiver soon. It's a little annoying carrying around arrows by hand.
Heh, you dont use a wrist protector? I remember not using one when I started archery. If I pulled the cord as far as the arrow allowed, it would slap into my wrist and it really hurt. I don't think I had a 45 lb draw weight. I Imagine a more powerful bow would hurt more.

[Mouzafphaerre]

That's easy is called missing.

Why use wooden arrow Edyz EmfM? Titanium all the way, ultralight and will shoot right through a steel plate.
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There are two techniques: One is concerned with throwing as far as possible; the other is about hitting the target. I may post a couple of pictures showing one of the last native practicers doing both but first I'll have to get them...
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[Fragony]

Was just being a nuissance ~;)

Turkish archers are legendary, an able archer was supposed to fire 5 arrows in 2 seconds and hit their target, while riding a horse :dizzy2:

[Kekvit Irae]

I used to go to archery tournaments. I used a shortbow. Longbows and recurves were too cumbersome for me, and compounds are for no-skill pansies.

[TosaInu]

Hello Evil_Maniac From Mars,

I do. Horse/shortbows, flatbow, recurve and compound.


I used to go to archery tournaments. I used a shortbow. Longbows and recurves were too cumbersome for me, and compounds are for no-skill pansies.

Compound requires different skills. It looks easy, but it's certainly not a walk in the park.

[macsen rufus]

I was thinking just the other day it would be nice to get back into it, but I guess I'd need to find a good club/range nearby as I've moved since I was last in a club. More eagerness than skill on my part, but I did enjoy it immensely. Field courses were my favourite, rather than an indoor range, but I guess you have to take what's on offer. I'd love to try a traditional English longbow, but the draw would be well beyond me right now.... it seems to be in the blood to some degree, my dad made his own longbow when he was young.

[Orda Khan]

I use a Kassai Hun and so does my wife. I make all our wooden arrows (carbon is a swear word) and I also make leather quivers.

https://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8732/hunquivermj5.th.jpg (https://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hunquivermj5.jpg)

Mouzafphaerre
There are some fine archers using traditional equipment in Turkey, you really should give it a try. I've seen some amazing bows crafted by these individuals, either flight or target

.....Orda

[TosaInu]

I'd love to try a traditional English longbow, but the draw would be well beyond me right now.... it seems to be in the blood to some degree, my dad made his own longbow when he was young.

Hello macsen rufus,

Any bow is available in any drawweight (within limits). If you mean over 90# by traditional, anyone may need a workout first. However, one 90# draw is not the other (just like some 50 F days feel colder than others).

http://bickerstaffebows.co.uk/products.php?id=Standard

You'll find longbows up to 35# maximum (granted that's re-enactment stuff, but still functional), up to 60# (typically 30-60 range) and over 60#.

Grozer makes 30-90 range longbows too http://www.grozerarchery.com/htm/long/longbow.htm

It's often possible to have some customisation when ordering with a bowyer (say you want it at only 20 lbs).

One will have to learn the ins and outs first. Starting with a lower drawweight and then gradually increase that when getting stronger (30, 50, 70, 90, 110..).

[Tristuskhan]

I broke my homemade yew longbow last summer (a pity, I waited for five years for it to be dry and stable). Now I understand why yew that grew in atlantic climate was not used in the middle ages and why bowmakers used Italian or Spanish yew. I still have one long and fine yew branch drying, but it's gonna wait for long before I dare using it.

Until then I use a basic leisure bow (quite an huge one).

[TosaInu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKgSC7JPIk&feature=related

[Fragony]

Quite a popular sport here as it turns out, got a bow and shot it a few times but it was something I got because someone owed me some money and bows>money especially when they can be dissassembled and put in a small suitcase it makes you feel like James Bond. Shooting it is easy, pull string and arrow goes where you point it (and through things oh yeah, heard it has same exit speed as an 9mm bullet) assembling it is hell can't do it alone at least.

[TosaInu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKa8cjgw9oE&feature=related

[TosaInu]

Shooting it is easy, pull string and arrow goes where you point it (and through things oh yeah, heard it has same exit speed as an 9mm bullet) assembling it is hell can't do it alone at least.

Something like this at 1:33 Fragony? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzssL3VNwAo&feature=related

[Fragony]

Something like this at 1:33 Fragony? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzssL3VNwAo&feature=related

Well I could probably hit that kid from the same distance if that's what you mean.

[TosaInu]

Sorry, 99.9% off topic and still: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqhmeGikcno&feature=related

[edyzmedieval]

Was just being a nuissance ~;)


No need to be, I shoot myself. ~;)

Lightweight, and sometimes wood, and these are the school's bows. Will buy a pro one for my birthday, as I'm fond of this sport. Compound is really hard to pull when you start it, but then it's easy. It requires good aim though, as it's a powerful and mean curved little thing.

[Husar]

Never even had one in my hand, but someone(Orda?) posted this (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5448367499255467471&q=kassai) here a while ago and it's quite interesting. :2thumbsup:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

That's easy is called missing.

Why use wooden arrow Edyz EmfM? Titanium all the way, ultralight and will shoot right through a steel plate.

Wood is more traditional, and I like the feel. For target shooting I prefer wood. For hunting I will without a doubt use titanium.


I did archery when I was .. eh.. younger.

I can't remember the specifics but I know it was a longbow (as in not composite or recurve) and I think it was a King bow. I had both wooden arrows and steel tipped carbon arrows. I personally liked the carbon arrows as they went farther and was more accurate.

I don't think it matters what the shaft is made of, but the carbon arrows were slimmer and it had a screw-on steel tip as in opposite to my wooden arrows with a soft metal (tin?) wrapped around the wood tip.
I bet you could get titanium tips for wooden shafts today...

Hmm, to bad I have no sons. Maybe one of my daughters would be interested in archery? It would be the perfect excuse to take up the sport again.

Wood shafts warp more easily, and require more care, but I like them just for the traditional value.

There's no excuse needed to take up archery again. It gets you in the outdoors, keeps you strong (lots of pulling), and is a wonderful relaxant.


Heh, you dont use a wrist protector? I remember not using one when I started archery. If I pulled the cord as far as the arrow allowed, it would slap into my wrist and it really hurt. I don't think I had a 45 lb draw weight. I Imagine a more powerful bow would hurt more.

The secret is to keep your arm bent outward. You don't get slapped very often, and, besides, I usually wear durable, but not too loose, sweatshirts and tops when I shoot. I have shot longbows before, and, using the same technique, it works alright. My worst concern is, as I shoot Mediterranean draw, the inside of my fingers on my right hand bruise from holding the string, which means I'm looking into leather gloves for my right hand.


Hello Evil_Maniac From Mars,

I do. Horse/shortbows, flatbow, recurve and compound.


What bows do you use? It sounds like you're really in love with the sport.


I use a Kassai Hun and so does my wife. I make all our wooden arrows (carbon is a swear word) and I also make leather quivers.


.....Orda

I was really hoping to get a word in here from you, as I gather that you're quite the excellent archer. I've been looking into a Hun or Mongol bow myself, actually, but I'll need to wait until I have the money.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Frag, you don't have to try too hard! :laugh4: But that rate sounds really legendary. :dizzy2:

Orda Khan, if you could point any (with contact info) we'll be indebted. :bow:
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[Csargo]

When I was younger I used to be able to shoot a bow. I haven't shot a bow in years though.

[Xehh II]

I made my own bow, piece of crap but it's good enough for me.

[Orda Khan]

Thanks Evil_Maniac From Mars ... not sure I'd say excellent but I do OK.

My Kassai Hun is 45# which is plenty strong enough. Shooting Field Courses requires some energetic hiking, shooting three arrows at twenty four targets over roughly six hours and then repeating it the following day. A weight that can cast well without tiring the archer is ideal and, of course, can vary with each archer. GNAS competitions put a safety cap of 60# on bows.

Like a Longbow, this type of bow requires shooting 'around the bow', otherwise known as the archers paradox. Arrow spine becomes more noticeably important than it would when shooting through the window of a modern riser. Because of this, expect to see your accuracy drop, at least until you become used to it and/or find the ideal arrow set up for the bow.

That photo is my latest quiver and the last dozen arrows I made for myself. They are all spine and weight matched ...40# spine, 400gr in weight, with 100gr brass bullet piles and 5.5" fletchings, hand cut to low profile.

If you are considering a 'horse bow' then I'd definitely recommend Kassai's Hun, it really is a wonderful thing to shoot.

www.eastern-archery.com Plenty to see here

.......Orda

[TosaInu]

What bows do you use? It sounds like you're really in love with the sport.


-This is the 60# Crimean Tartar replica (fibreglass, wood and leather), I use 32" wooden arrows with that.

https://forums.totalwar.org/tosa/KrimTartaar.jpg

-A Mongol/Chinese bow and 37" arrows like this one http://www.grozerarchery.com/htm/mongol/mongol.htm 25# at 28", 40# at 36" (thumbdraw).

Both are static recurves.


-A 35# Samick fibreglass Korean horsebow, a dynamic recurve. Using 32" carbon.

-I don't know the brand of the flatbow, it's 40#, several layers of wood, top fibre laminated and has a window. Shoots 32" wood.

-I purchased the compound when I was a teenager, it's only 20 lbs. It can still handle 32" carbon and I use it at times.

-Another 'toy' is a bamboo flatbow (Bärentöter is the brand I think). It's also very old and even 40" draw won't get more than ~5# out of it. Shoots 40" wood.

-I've also used several other bows (recently), ranging from a crude branch of a tree, compound (still just ~50lbs model from wayback) and modern recurves (20#-45#) with stabilisers, sights and the whole lot.

I prefer barebow (especially thumb). Doesn't need much time to assemble/disassemble, no worry about refitting parts (compound and sometimes modern recurve), no adjusting sights, no uncooperative parts to 'blame', just me, a stick, a string and not yet broken arrows.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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That's a beauty TosaInu-sama. ~:)
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[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I can't remember who said that the Martin was "only" a 45# bow, which it is, without a doubt, but a lighter draw weight also increases stability in the shot, and with a good bow design, can shoot as well as something heavier.

[TosaInu]

I can't remember who said that the Martin was "only" a 45# bow, which it is, without a doubt, but a lighter draw weight also increases stability in the shot, and with a good bow design, can shoot as well as something heavier.

55 lbs is not heavy for a compound bow. 45# for a dynamic recurve is quite something. 60# is the maximum allowed drawweight in recurve competitions here. I do not know many people having heavier than 40# limbs, I do however know many who have 20-30.

It's very true: drawweight isn't everything. Another thing is that drawing 30# isn't/doesn't feel the same effort for all bows.

There's a Chinese saying about bows: It's not relevant how much you can pull, but how much you can release.

It took me a bit to fully draw the 60 (most would, that is still lady pull back in the days though, these bows go up to 120 and more). I had no reason to smile yet though. Releasing it meant getting a blow into neck and shoulders. Maybe it was caused by the pull/tension, but the release made me feel it. I'ld say the saying is true, also because of the stability of the aim and release.

Yes, it's a nice bow Mouzafphaerre. Grozer also makes Turkish replicas, including the authentic tendon and horn: http://www.grozerarchery.com/htm/torok/torok2.htm .

[Mouzafphaerre]

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:2thumbsup:
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[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

55 lbs is not heavy for a compound bow. 45# for a dynamic recurve is quite something. 60# is the maximum allowed drawweight in recurve competitions here. I do not know many people having heavier than 40# limbs, I do however know many who have 20-30.


Yes, the bow is a recurve. It shoots like something much more expensive, so I'm very happy with my purchase.

[TosaInu]

Do you shoot outside or indoors Evil_Maniac From Mars?

[Vladimir]

One day:

http://www.bowstaves.com/

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Do you shoot outside or indoors Evil_Maniac From Mars?
Outside. The most indoor shooting I do is with an awning to stand under at an archery range, but usually completely outside, just me, the target, and the wind.

[TosaInu]

You use a soft straw target? My experience is that wooden arrows tend to lock themselves in the normal targets used by the carbon/recurve shooters. Often resulting in broken shafts when pulling out or lost heads. Have you polished/painted the shaft to make it smoother?

~:) same conditions here, 40 meters being the maximum distance. Haven't been shooting further yet.

Edit: when not having a quiver but wearing jeans, it works fine to stick the arrows in the backpocket (head first).

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Straw or foam. The foam being essentially frozen at the moment certainly makes things harder, but the only thing I've almost damaged an arrow in is solid wood. The shafts are as I bought them, slightly polished.

[TosaInu]

Varnish can make them smoother to retrieve.

[Martok]

Longbows and recurves were too cumbersome for me, and compounds are for no-skill pansies.
A question from the ignorant masses here: Why would recurves be cumbersome? I understand why longbows might be due to their size, but what makes recurves hard to handle?

[Orda Khan]

Hi Martok
The term 'recurve' is normally applied to the bow used in Olympic event archery, as in the bow, sight and stabiliser/s. Imagine the bow with a T.V aerial on the front and you begin to get the picture.
Without the sight and stabilisers, the same bow (modern recurve - riser and detachable limbs) is in a different category, known as bare bow.
Then, and this is the worst part, use that 'barebow recurve' to shoot wooden arrows and it is classed as Traditional. This is the category the Hun and other Asiatic reflex bows fall into, so you can see we are at a disadvantage immediately because we have no cut out window and have to shoot around the bow. Longbows have their own classification.

As for wooden arrows, they really should be treated with thinned varnish or Danish oil or something similar. It's not essential but it does help prevent the shaft absorbing moisture if it's raining or whatever, thus preventing warping or changes in the arrow's characteristics....weight, cast, etc

......Orda

[Rodion Romanovich]

Crossbows and sniper rifles ftw! :2thumbsup:

[Fragony]

A question from the ignorant masses here: Why would recurves be cumbersome? I understand why longbows might be due to their size, but what makes recurves hard to handle?

The sportsbows are big because of the stabilisers, think a stick of +/- 60cm pointing forwards. Don't have to use them but it's more accurate.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I should make it clear that I shoot the bow as is - no extra sights, stabilizers, very traditional.

[mrdun]

No need to be, I shoot myself. ~;)

Could have worded that slightly better :laugh4:

[TosaInu]

A few pictures may help to explain.

A traditional archer.
https://forums.totalwar.org/tosa/traditionalarcher.jpg

A modern recurve targetarcher using sights, stabilisers:
https://forums.totalwar.org/tosa/recurvearcher.jpg

A compound archer:
https://forums.totalwar.org/tosa/compoundarcher.jpg

Both modern recurve and compound bows can be used without sights, arrowrests, stabilisers, some of those, or other tools.

When the last two have nothing at all, they are called barebow, I believe it's even called barebow when it has the sight.

Tools for traditional bows are limited, and rules are confusing regarding when it is still traditional/legal for a competition.

I haven't seen a traditional bow using a stabiliser yet, nor magnifying/laser sights. They can have some sort of basic arrowsupport, a nockingpoint on the string to allow some reference for consistency, colors on the string to make stringwalking easier or partial thickening of the string to make barehanded drawing (and release) less of an ordeal. Not part of the bow really, but a thumbring (or any other [partial] glove to protect the drawing fingers and/or bowhand), armprotector and chestprotector can be used too.

[Martok]

Thanks for the answers, guys. That definitely helps explain it. :bow:

[Orda Khan]

OK....Just to clear up the different bow categories...

Longbow......No aids, string drawn from one point to same anchor/reference point. Tab or finger glove allowed. Wooden arrows.

Traditional.....No aids, string drawn to same anchor/reference point. Arrow rest, Tab/glove allowed. Any recurve bow (the Martin bow pictured is commonly called a Hunter Recurve, generally shorter and not taken down, unlike the longer recurve in Tosa's pic) Wooden arrows.

Barebow.....No sights. Weights in riser, arrow rest, button (to stabilise the arrow) and string walking allowed. Tab/glove allowed.

Recurve.....Sights, stabilisers, button and clicker (arrow is drawn through the clicker until it slips off the tip, at which point it is released) Same anchor/reference point. Platform tabs are usually used in this style.

Compound Barebow.....Generally the same as for barebow but using a compound.

Compound Limited.....Any sight, stabiliser allowed. Same anchor/reference. Tab/glove allowed.

Compound Unlimited....Sights, stabiliser, trigger type release aid.

Incidentally, the thumb draw is generally unrecognised. It is possible to shoot in this style, using the relevant bow type (ie Turkish, Asiatic reflex)
The use of a thumb ring is the cause for concern as it is viewed as a release aid. Therefore, as an example, if I was to use my Hun and wooden arrows and use my thumb to draw....
Without a ring.....OK
With a ring......Compound Unlimited.
All down to the officials' lack of understanding and viewing the thumb ring as an 'aid' when its principle role is the same as a tab or glove, to protect the archer from soreness.
I know a few archers who have been put off using the thumb draw because of this misunderstanding.
As there is no archaeological evidence suggesting the Huns used thumb rings, the earliest discoveries being 7thC Avar, I use my fingers on the bow string

.......Orda

[TosaInu]

Incidentally, the thumb draw is generally unrecognised. It is possible to shoot in this style, using the relevant bow type (ie Turkish, Asiatic reflex)
The use of a thumb ring is the cause for concern as it is viewed as a release aid. Therefore, as an example, if I was to use my Hun and wooden arrows and use my thumb to draw....
Without a ring.....OK
With a ring......Compound Unlimited.

How about increasing the thickness of the string? I recall the Mongols (?) wrapped soft leather around the string where the thumb would grab it.

How about a leather thumb protector? A metal ring makes a smoother release, but a leather one is more comfortable. My guess is that a leather one would also be easier to recognise as a sort of tab too.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I can't remember who said that the Martin was "only" a 45# bow, which it is, without a doubt, but a lighter draw weight also increases stability in the shot, and with a good bow design, can shoot as well as something heavier.

Wow, it was me who said it was "only" a 45#. I really must get my multiple personalities in line with each other. :laugh4:

[Orda Khan]

How about increasing the thickness of the string? I recall the Mongols (?) wrapped soft leather around the string where the thumb would grab it.

How about a leather thumb protector? A metal ring makes a smoother release, but a leather one is more comfortable. My guess is that a leather one would also be easier to recognise as a sort of tab too.
As long as the thickened area is at the nocking point only and could not be deemed as a means of aiming, at inspection. It would even be possible to fit those sleeves you sometimes see, especially on kids bows; but extra weight on the string only serves to slow it down. Most traditional Korean bows have thicker strings.
As you know, the traditional way to string the Asiatic bows is slightly different to western bows. A loop is tied, using a special knot, to each end of the string. There is evidence that these loops were sometimes wrapped in soft skins such as mice.

The thumbring issue I described is the current understanding within GNAS/FITA guidelines (though FITA does not recognise 'Traditional') It is possible that a leather ring would be permitted, it would depend on the judge and/or any objections from other archers.
There are other governing bodies that allow the thumbring but the rules applied to the bow become strict and a little contradictary

......Orda

[edyzmedieval]

Archer experts, I wish to ask you the power required to fully extend a yew longbow. Thank you.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Archer experts, I wish to ask you the power required to fully extend a yew longbow. Thank you.
Depends on the longbow, very simply. Each will have it's own individual draw weight, and the weight on some might feel less or more than the weight on others, even if it says it's the same.

[TruePraetorian]

Evil Maniac, I agree with you on doing it traditional. I've shot many a bow for hunting or just for fun, but the traditional/recurve has always made me feel more "human", know what I mean? I usually use a 55-60 lbs draw wieght on a homeade traditional, with wooden arrows and a leather arm-strap (once, I didn't wear this my arm was red for days when I shot a 60lb). My good buddy shoots only compound, and I don't like how your not "tested" to hold the string back. I prefer to struggle with it while i'm out in the bush; again it makes me feel more tested and I get a better sense of pride when I hit a deer.

The highest weight I pulled back was either a 95lb or a 105lb, but it doesn't come easy...luckily I play (American) football and have to lift weights every day. :smash:

EDIT: BTW home-making takes forever and they often break at the oddest times, so I don't advise it if you don't have the time, uncle to teach you, or live in Michigan with plenty of trees.

[TosaInu]

Archer experts, I wish to ask you the power required to fully extend a yew longbow. Thank you.


Depends on the longbow

That is correct. It also depends on your draw. Someone who pulls a bow 24" may draw 40 pounds. Someone who draws the same bow to 29" may draw 50 pounds (considering both draw as a longbow should be drawn, not one in the center and the other using it like a yumi).

[edyzmedieval]

Thread necromancy...

Bow-experts, I seek your advice on buying a bow. I want a yew longbow to buy, as I am very fond of these huge things. Is it reliable to buy from the internet? (I doubt it but still)

Is it good a yew longbow? Should I choose another material? I am about 1.77m, and I can pull on a low row (not sure if its useful) around 40-45 kg maximum. Will improve this summer.

Longbow only.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Bow-experts, I seek your advice on buying a bow. I want a yew longbow to buy, as I am very fond of these huge things. Is it reliable to buy from the internet? (I doubt it but still)

Actually, buying from the internet is quite reliable, if you have a good dealer. For example, my bow is from Martin Archery, bought online, and it arrived in perfect condition - without a doubt it has become my favourite bow. If you can, find a website where you can calculate your draw length and recommended draw weight, or even better, find a local archery range to get a few shots off. A bow is part of you, in a way, in that you need to find one that fits you like an extension of your own body. Therefore, if you buy online, do your homework.