A guide to dining in hell?

[antisocialmunky]

What sort of rations would ancient armies have carried? While foraging is nice and all as a supplement, organized armies usually brought with them a ton of food right? What type of food would armies have been carrying around in the EB time frame and how would they have stored it to prevent deterioration on campaign? :book:

[antiochus epiphanes]

that is an interesting question.:2thumbsup: i imagine that armies of that time would generally live off of the land, maybe bring livestock with them, but im not a expert on that...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Romans carried grain with them and a millstone. They had a mule for each contubernium of 8 men to carry the tent and the grain and the millstone. They grinded the grain every evening I think and made some kind of mash of it.

[pezhetairoi]

If I may quote from Dodge's Hannibal (as I have in other threads because the book happens to be the only one close at hand).

On the Carthaginians

'The subsistence department is clearly defined by Polybius. There were special officers who went out with the foraging parties and gathered corn and beef and wine, and had charge of the depots of victuals. We hear that in Italy the soldiers had regular issues of beef and grain and wine, with cheese, hams, vinegar to cut the water (what does that mean, does anyone know?), oil for rubbing the bodies, and curiously enough, perfumery for the hair.'

On the Romans at Veii (Camillan Era)

'The rations consisted of corn, which the men ground themselves in handmills and made into porridge or a sort of pancake. And there were probably occasional meat rations as well.'

Some kind of chapatti comes to mind.

On the Romans against Hannibal (Polybian Era)

Unground wheat was issued as a ration, once in eight to thirty days, at the rate of four Roman measures, not far from one to one-and-a-half bushels a month for the footsoldier. This was between one-and-a-half and two pounds of wheat a day--what we should call a very scanty ration, if this was the whole of it. But beef cattle were also used, and no doubt generously issued, and the foragers and countrymen brought into camp fresh fruits and vegetables whenever the season warranted. The cavalryman received thrice as much, for himself and two servants, besides forage for three horses. The allies received somewhat less. This corn the men carried, and ground in handmills, and made into the usual cake or porridge. They eat morning and evening only--the common custom--a slight breakfast taken standing, and a heartier supper, at which the men reclined; the latter was eaten in the first watch, six to nine PM. Before an intended battle a more liberal breakfast was usual.

The purchase of rations in bulk was the affair of the quaestors. In the enemy's country rations were collected by forced contributions. Victuals were stored in suitable magazines.'

Hope this helps. Any information on the eastern countries, though? *waits for Persian Cataphract* I'm suspecting also that the steppe peoples' diet did not change appreciably until Genghis Khan's time; mares' milk, dried meat, boiled meat, and perhaps some alcoholic drink they fermented from (something i can't remember). The Mongols called it kumis or something of the sort. The more sedentary Scythians probably had agricultural products, no doubt.

It would appear that nearly all of the 'civilised' armies (though I generalise here) have a logistics system by which supply trains containing grain were coupled with cattle being driven with the army or brought in from the neighbourhood, and all other fresh food was supplemented by foraging and forced donation/'taxation'.

The question that I want to add on to this is: What exactly constitutes foraging? Is it a bunch of horsemen galloping around the countryside going 'we want food! we'll buy it from you', or 'we want food! let us raid your pantries.' or 'we want food! dammit give it to us, or you see this spear here?'

[-Praetor-]

Cutting the water might mean the addition of a substance to water to prevent it from rotting.

Like adding vinegar in case of the romans, or tea leaves in the case of the chinese.

[pezhetairoi]

...Water rots? o.O

[Xehh II]

Water goes stagnant.

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

...Water rots? o.O
Not so much, but it gets gnarly. Ever let water sit in a non-airtight container for a long time? I would imagine the vinegar would stave off bacteria and keep the water fresh.

[pezhetairoi]

Uh, but wouldn't vinegar also make the water practically undrinkable unless you're of the I-love-scrunching-my-face-up variety?

[bovi]

Maybe it's more of a I-need-water-so-I-scrunch-my-face-up thing.

[Apgad]

and perhaps some alcoholic drink they fermented from (something i can't remember).

Fermented mare's milk, probably. The Mongols drink it still.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Uh, but wouldn't vinegar also make the water practically undrinkable unless you're of the I-love-scrunching-my-face-up variety?
During the summer, my breakfast often consists of watered down apple vinegar, maybe with a little honey. Whatever the season, I almost always add some vinegar into my meal.
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[I of the Storm]

Uh, but wouldn't vinegar also make the water practically undrinkable unless you're of the I-love-scrunching-my-face-up variety?
Not if you're careful. If you put just a little in, it can be quite refreshing, cf. Mouzafphaerre. Take too much and it's not.

[pezhetairoi]

Now that's something I didn't know. I shall go try some. *potters off*

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Want the recipe of a refreshing cold drink made from stale tea with vinagar? :chef:
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[I of the Storm]

If the maître d' is willing to share it with us, certainly.

[Uncle Odin]

I would be pleased to try this out in summer time, playing EB and doing nasty things to romans...

Sounds like a cool thing. :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

[antiochus epiphanes]

lol someone needs to make a EB cook book..:book:

[antisocialmunky]

Great thread, lots of interesting information so far.

@antiochus - Would be fun for loading background IE EB Team Brownie Recipe

[Justinian II]

lol someone needs to make a EB cook book..:book:


Or a restaurant.

Something like "Gracchi Brothers Pizzarea: Patrician food at Plebeian Prices"

[Foot]

Perhaps cutting with water describes something like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posca

Foot

[-Praetor-]

Uh, but wouldn't vinegar also make the water practically undrinkable unless you're of the I-love-scrunching-my-face-up variety?

Well, "rots" it`s not an exact word, but as someone said, water goes stagnant and starts to get nasty bugs and bacteria that can get you into disentery really quick.

Talking about vinegar, roman legions were really fond of "posca".


Posca was a type of beverage popular among the Roman legions. It was made from wine that had begun to go sour and turn into vinegar. This was diluted with water and occasionally sweetened with honey. Roman legionaries considered posca to be quite refreshing.

In the New Testament, a Roman soldier is described giving Jesus a sponge soaked in posca to drink (Matthew 27:48).

So, it was pretty common at that time.

In some campaign while I was a sargent during my time in the army, I talked some of my men about this after the dinner, and how roman soldiers drank this stuff and how they conquered gaul with it and builded an fortified encampment for 5000 soldiers in one afternoon and shit.

5 of my 11 men squad, 18 years old all of them, took this motivational conversation a little to the heart, and stormed the kitchen "liberating" a 2 liter apple vinegar bottle. They mixed it with water, and filled their cantines in preparation for their next day`s march.

Feeling like roman legionaires conquering the mediterranean, they drank a part of the breverage right before the march, and saved most of it for the rest of the day.

They were vomiting their brains out at third click.

Someone showed restlessness and started to question my roman army knowledge...

I told them that they did it all wrong, romans made it with wine vinegar, not with apple vinegar.

3 of them were stupid enough to try it again, and again, vomited their brains out even faster than the day before.

Idiots. After that, they stickied to water during marches.

PS: Things like this made my army years the best of my life ~:(

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

If the maître d' is willing to share it with us, certainly.

I would be pleased to try this out in summer time, playing EB and doing nasty things to romans...

Sounds like a cool thing. :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

lol someone needs to make a EB cook book..:book:
Wow! :shocked: I hadn't expected so much interest. :cheesy:

The original inventor of this thing is an old, charismatic friend; an architect and photographer. It's really simple. The entire point is getting the balance right.

Measure your stale tea in glasses (200 cc). It should be in serviceable form, ie if you're adding water, do. For each glass of serviceable stale tea, you add one spoon of -preferably apple- vinegar and one spoon of sugar. Stir them, pour into something that has a covering lid and rest in the fridge for some time. Once you get the balance of the ingredients right, it tastes a lot like tamarind juice and is really refreshing. :barrel:
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[unreal_uk]

I'd like to add some advice learned from a certain famous expedition.

Never eat the honey.

[pezhetairoi]

Sorry, I'm dense, but what expedition is this? And what is this honey of which you speak? *peers*

And I absolutely lol at k_raso's men. XD The dumb fellas. I don't think they did drink it -on the march-, even if they did drink it. I don't think the body wants apple vinegar when it's being strained on a route march. XD

[ElectricEel]

Sorry, I'm dense, but what expedition is this? And what is this honey of which you speak? *peers* Xenophon's Anabasis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_%28Xenophon%29), I think - I recall someone here on the forums mentioning that there was poisoned honey involved.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I'll tag this thread so I may return to it sometimes later and provide an abstraction on the Iranian philosophy of handling of supplies, and what kind of supplies these would usually entail; We'll talk about what can be made out of these, and we'll talk about what the most common staples would have been. There are some vast differences between the Achaemenids, who always retained a very elaborate baggage, early Parthians, who were almost entirely nomadic in the classical Scythian fashion, the later Parthians and early Sassanians who would significantly increase the ratio of heavily armed and armoured cavalry and transition to the pronounced presence of infantry. We'll talk about the later Sassanians as well, and in particular delve into the peculiarities that surrounds the "dîhqân"-reforms of emperor Chosroës I, because there is a lot to talk about.

On cuisine itself, we don't have the plethora of Roman or Greek dishes; Nothing that inclusive, but we have a general framework for the military aspect, including means of preservation, and as always when we speak of the Greater Iran, we almost certainly stumble upon the spectrum of fruits, vegetables and nuts (We usually associate the geography of Iran, by stereotype, as arid, mountaineous, and steppen, which of course forms a part of the vegetation, but we seldom recognize the historically outstanding agricultural flexibility of the area), not to mention spices and other commodities. To make up for the lack of textual evidences, we will have to rely on archaeological means to unveil the domestication of sheep, goats, hogs and bovine cattle, and the first known fermentation of corn, barley, ephedra (Haomâg), and grapes. We will have to argue per cause of tradition and from there make an abstraction of what may have been suitable, for the common soldier on foot, for wealthier horsemen, the knightly caste and finally the general's cadre. What little there is, one must be thankful, because the sources do indeed with utmost fortune discuss these aspects (Beyond the array of ingridients contained in treatises such as "De Re Coquinaria" of Apicius, or the more in-the-depth "Agricultura").

My assessment is that the Iranian perspective, which by the nature of similarity would also largely dictate the traditions of the Armenian logistical model, but also influence the Indo-Scythians and the Kushan empire, is quite comparable to the machinery of the Graeco-Romans in the basics, but would past the aforementioned dîhqân-reforms turn the Sassanid military machine into newer heights of discipline (Trivia: Remarkably enough to the degree where we find Islamic sources speaking of the early Islamic invasions, where the muslims considered the Persians to have superior discipline in battle than the Romans, which undoubtedly must have been part of the popular impact of the victories scored by Shâhîn and Shahrvarâz). I am not going to say "equal" because we'd equate the strengths and weaknesses of other comparable candidates, which would deviate from reality and the available variables.

What may come as a surprise to some of you may be the discussion of how the ancient Iranians used the banquet as a military tool. This was not some random anomaly, but must always have been a part of the regal intrigues, only applied to foreign adversaries.

[pezhetairoi]

*blink* I certainly hope you will return to it later, because I still have no idea from your post just what your ancestors ate on campaign. o.O XD

Though, if you could help it...could you paragraph more? My mind gets a little numb sometimes reading your posts. XD

[Maeran]

No dishes were mentioned, and I think that that the Persian Cataphract's answer was more of a reminder to himself about what to come back to, and an apetiser for the rest of us.

The part of his post that did have potential ingredients, and varied at that, was a paragraph. This one:



On cuisine itself, we don't have the plethora of Roman or Greek dishes; Nothing that inclusive, but we have a general framework for the military aspect, including means of preservation, and as always when we speak of the Greater Iran, we almost certainly stumble upon the spectrum of fruits, vegetables and nuts (We usually associate the geography of Iran, by stereotype, as arid, mountaineous, and steppen, which of course forms a part of the vegetation, but we seldom recognize the historically outstanding agricultural flexibility of the area), not to mention spices and other commodities. To make up for the lack of textual evidences, we will have to rely on archaeological means to unveil the domestication of sheep, goats, hogs and bovine cattle, and the first known fermentation of corn, barley, ephedra (Haomâg), and grapes. We will have to argue per cause of tradition and from there make an abstraction of what may have been suitable, for the common soldier on foot, for wealthier horsemen, the knightly caste and finally the general's cadre. What little there is, one must be thankful, because the sources do indeed with utmost fortune discuss these aspects (Beyond the array of ingridients contained in treatises such as "De Re Coquinaria" of Apicius, or the more in-the-depth "Agricultura").

[unreal_uk]

Xenophon's Anabasis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_%28Xenophon%29), I think - I recall someone here on the forums mentioning that there was poisoned honey involved.

Exactly! xD

Symptoms include - severe puking, crapping, fever, madness and sometimes death.

You've really gotta love honey to keep eating that.

[CirdanDharix]

Exactly! xD

Symptoms include - severe puking, crapping, fever, madness and sometimes death.

You've really gotta love honey to keep eating that.
But this kind of honey is only found in part of the Pontic coast. I believe it's been attributed to bees that frequent the flower azalea pontica.

[antisocialmunky]

*notes diarrhea flower name

Man, PC's post is pretty epic, look forward to seeing your doubly epic final draft.

Here's a related question, did militaries around that time use food preservation techniques on meat, fruit, and vegitables?

[Mediolanicus]

I think only the usual techniques...
Putting them in vinegar, salting, drying or smoking them, letting them ferment or turn into alcohol...

[unreal_uk]

But this kind of honey is only found in part of the Pontic coast. I believe it's been attributed to bees that frequent the flower azalea pontica.

I know! I'm just making an amusing addition to the topic!

[Cyclops]

*blink* I certainly hope you will return to it later, because I still have no idea from your post just what your ancestors ate on campaign. o.O XD...

Well I think the answer is...


...Some kind of chapatti...

I imagine parched grain was the simplest ration an army could carry/acquire on the march. Thyey'd take whatb they could get to supliment it.

On "cutting the water", if you can't find running water then you're in trouble as standing water is often tainted (I think Sun Tzu calls water in pools "dead water"), so a "steritab" is a handy campaign tool.

[bovi]

To make up for the lack of textual evidences, we will have to rely on archaeological means to unveil the domestication of sheep, goats, hogs and bovine cattle, and the first known fermentation of corn, barley, ephedra (Haomâg), and grapes.
I assume you mean grain? I know that, in both Norwegian and Swedish, "korn" is any sort of grain, but corn in English is actually coming from America: http://www.gardenaction.co.uk/images/sweetcorn_lark_small.jpg

I've never heard of Ephedra before, I learned today that Ephedra are a family of reeds with stimulative properties, and can be used to manufacture amphetamine, as well as the medicine Ephedrine and a particular tea known as Mormon tea.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I assume you mean grain? I know that, in both Norwegian and Swedish, "korn" is any sort of grain, but corn in English is actually coming from America: http://www.gardenaction.co.uk/images/sweetcorn_lark_small.jpg

I've never heard of Ephedra before, I learned today that Ephedra are a family of reeds with stimulative properties, and can be used to manufacture amphetamine, as well as the medicine Ephedrine and a particular tea known as Mormon tea.

In Swedish actually "korn" is one of the four main cereals, and corn would specifically be the fourth (Hordeum vulgare), otherwise known as barley, besides wheat, rye and oats. But you are also right that "korn" is also a designation of a certain part of the cereal and that would be the grain itself; That is not what I meant. I'm sure you've heard of "kornvin". The other "corn" is more technically known as maize, and this staple foodstuff did not enter European history until the Spanish interactions with the native Americans. I see from where the confusion came; I mentioned corn and barley in the same sentence, so my bad there :egypt:

Ephedra, or more specifically the Hôm or Haomâ plant, is as you say a family of reeds, with stimulative essences. It was so popular as an alocoholic beverage amongst the ancient Iranians, that it soon came to give a certain Saka tribe the name of "Haoma-drinking Scythians" (Sakâ Haomâvargâ); There were also military or judiciary uses for it, because it was believed to have been a truth-serum. Due to the importance of the tenet of "truth" in Zoroastrianism and specifically the Iranian code of chivalry (Shoot the bow, ride the horse and speak the truth), the ephedra had a sacred appeal to it, even in spite of prophet Zoroaster's recommendation of abstinence:

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Misc/Daryaee4.gif


When, Wise One (Mazda), shall men desist from murdering?
when shall they fear the folly of that intoxicating drink (i.e., Haoma),
through the effects of which the Karpans (mumbling priests),
as well as the evil rulers of the lands torture our (good) intentions in an evil way?

You can read more on the subject here:
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Culture/wine_good.htm

[bovi]

:2thumbsup:

[Cyclops]

I assume you mean grain? I know that, in both Norwegian and Swedish, "korn" is any sort of grain, but corn in English is actually coming from America...

As TPC says corn can be the actual seed, and can mean grain in general (eg the Corn Laws in C18-19 Britain which were concerned mostly with wheat AFAIK).