US accuses Britain of inexperience in Taleban conflict

[InsaneApache]

Mr Gates said failings in the south were contributing to the rising violence in the fight against the Taleban.

His outspoken criticism, voiced in an interview with an American newspaper, provoked instant reactions from Britain, Canada and the Netherlands, the three most prominent members of the alliance, who have endured much of the fiercest fighting in southern Afghanistan.

The Dutch were so angry at what appeared to be direct criticism that they summoned the US Ambassador in The Hague to explain Mr Gates’s comments.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3201002.ece

Mr. Gates, if I were you I'd be inspecting my foot, you've got a great big bloody hole in it!

What is it with the US administration? Unless you're blowing doors off houses and piling in, all guns blazing, you're not doing the job properly. Idiots. :thumbsdown:

[Fragony]

Dutch politicians angry? If they would just let the military do their work.

[Husar]

Dutch politicians angry? If they would just let the military do their work.
Aren't they doing that already?
Keep in mind our defense minister went there before the troops to see whether it's safe for them over there. :laugh4:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Keep in mind our defense minister went there before the troops to see whether it's safe for them over there. :laugh4:
Priceless :laugh4:

[Fragony]

Aren't they doing that already?
Keep in mind our defense minister went there before the troops to see whether it's safe for them over there. :laugh4:

Quite the hero :beam:

Troops are doing their job but they aren't doing what they think should be done. There isn't much love for our european allies either, they could actually go out and shoot things. It's a bit emberrassing that the politian make such a fuss about such a broad statement. Just release our dogs of war, we have an exceptional army a shame not to use it to it's fullest.

[KrooK]

Dutch soldiers into Afghanistan. OMG.

[Fragony]

Dutch soldiers into Afghanistan. OMG.

Que? We have one of the most effective and well equiped army's in the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX01miySwkI&feature=related

These are pro's.

[Husar]

Troops are doing their job but they aren't doing what they think should be done.
You're not supposed to think in the military, or so I was told. ~;)

[Beirut]

So we can bring our people home and send Gates to Afghanistan instead?

Fine with me. I'll help him pack and even throw in a C-note for the plane ticket.

[KukriKhan]

Maybe bake him a little Humble Pie to eat on the plane, as well.

His spin-meisters are trying to roll back a bit:

Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell said: "The secretary is not backing off his fundamental criticism that NATO needs to do a better job in training for counterinsurgency. But he is not -- nor has he ever -- criticized any particular nation for their service in Afghanistan."

"The article was wrong in suggesting that he criticized individual countries," Morrell said of Gates. "In fact, he has routinely praised the Canadians, the Brits, the Dutch and the Australians who are in the fight in southern Afghanistan. He appreciates their service. He's sympathetic for the losses they have suffered."

(from: Wash. Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/16/AR2008011603785.html)).

Still, seems a bit cheeky, coming from an outfit that started this whole "use the military for a manhunt" strategy, and 7 and a half years, 2 countries, tens of thousands of casualties, and trillions of dollars later, STILL has yet to find the man, and 'bring him to justice'.

[Vladimir]

“I’m worried we’re deploying [military advisers] that are not properly trained, and I’m worried we have some military forces that don’t know how to do counter-insurgency operations.”

:inquisitive: That's it? Doesn't take much for you Euros to get your panties in a bunch does it? Apparently "cultured" means reacting like a 12 year old girl and not taking statements in context.

Is it true? Are forces being deployed to the south that don't have proper training? Everyone isn't the 10th Mountain Division who are trained for the environment and mission.

The Dutch have a decent record combating terrorism but do so while below sea level. What about all the articles posted here about British soldiers not receiving adequate training before they go and care when they return? Maybe there's some basis in fact.

What the hell people!?

[Proletariat]

That was my thought, Vlad. It may or may not be true, but it certainly wasn't a bunch of back stabbing, ingrateful insults. Let's take it easy

[Papewaio]

We Aussies didn't even get a mention... too good for us are ya. :furious3: :laugh4:

[Mikeus Caesar]

Considering how we have a small amount of troops patrolling areas the size of Wales, i'd say we've done a ruddy good job, and all without the need to carpetbomb civilian areas.

[Geoffrey S]

And so everyone springs to the defense of their national troops. Makes for a pretty show of patriotism. Although considering that various forces certainly haven't done any worse in Afghanistan than the US troops and I think the comment was unjustified, I seem to remember quite a lot of complaints about missing equipment and various accusations of lack of support at times among participating nations...

[KrooK]

Que? We have one of the most effective and well equiped army's in the world.
OMG I'm so scared about Dutch invasion :)
Sorry but here we are giving low marks to your effective and well equiped army :) Maybe because of RWANDA :)

Anyway NATO asked Poland to send 1200 soldiers to south Afghanistan when there is "one of most effective and well equiped army" Dutch Army? :) Why do they need us, when there are so many Dutch Dogs of War :)

You can find us here :)
http://www.isaf.wp.mil.pl/plik/file/rozmieszczenie2_afganistan.jpg

And here you can see some pros - this unit is undefeated;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuNVBwD4OxI&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPIZhESH60I&feature=related

[LittleGrizzly]

Anyway NATO asked Poland to send 1200 soldiers to south Afghanistan when there is "one of most effective and well equiped army" Dutch Army? :) Why do they need us, when there are so many Dutch Dogs of War :)


He didn't say there was millions of them just thier effective and well equiped

[Fragony]

OMG I'm so scared about Dutch invasion :)
Sorry but here we are giving low marks to your effective and well equiped army :) Maybe because of RWANDA :)


Wrong genocide. Now if these polish guy are so good give us a hand instead of guarding landing sites.

[Geoffrey S]

OMG I'm so scared about Dutch invasion :)
Sorry but here we are giving low marks to your effective and well equiped army :) Maybe because of RWANDA :)
Yeah, all those Benelux countries must look the same from Poland... good job you put smileys in your post, otherwise it might have seemed like offensive trolling.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Geez, the most GaH!-thread ever. What a complete waste of time this.

For intellectual stimulation I'd sooner join a sandbox of six-year olds discussing whose dad can beat up whose other dad.

[Vladimir]

Geez, the most GaH!-thread ever. What a complete waste of time this.

For intellectual stimulation I'd sooner join a sandbox of six-year olds discussing whose dad can beat up whose other dad.

I may have been a little harsh to my European friends but that was my Newtonian post. The details on just about everything here are sketchy. As soon as I heard "LA Times" my warning radar went up. Maybe referring to Iraq as the sandbox has lowered the collective maturity level.

[Fragony]

Oh common someone wanted be be offended. Politicians :no:

[UltraWar]

I will therefore, accuse America of Collateral Damage and Cocacolization!

[Boyar Son]

Actually, if politicians stop being such dumba**'s, they would know, even a BOOK were written on how to be a politician.

-The Prince

-The Courtier

-The State(smen? not sure but written by Socrates).

After reading some of the Prince I've found out that Iraq is an exact senario covered by Machiavelli. He says that simply occupying does great harm to the treasury, public opinion, and gains nothing.

Iraq is a waste of time.

[ICantSpellDawg]

We had to push the brits to use daytime bombing in WW2 because it was more effective. They were too busy going out at night and missing the broad side of a barn because it was "safer".

On the plus side, they have taught us a number of things. How to drink beer warm, how to shrug off people telling us that our teeth are ugly, and how to have a monarch in the 21st century and lecture other countries on democracy.

We owe them a debt of gratitude.

I'm just kidding - I love the U.K. - I visit once a year.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

We had to push the brits to use daytime bombing in WW2 because it was more effective. They were too busy going out at night and missing the broad side of a barn because it was "safer".

On the plus side, they have taught us a number of things. How to drink beer warm, how to shrug off people telling us that our teeth are ugly, and how to have a monarch in the 21st century and lecture other countries on democracy.

We owe them a debt of gratitude.

I'm just kidding - I love the U.K. - I visit once a year.

Not a great case anyway, so a good job you're kidding.


Actually, if politicians stop being such dumba**'s, they would know, even a BOOK were written on how to be a politician.

-The Prince

-The Courtier

-The State(smen? not sure but written by Socrates).

After reading some of the Prince I've found out that Iraq is an exact senario covered by Machiavelli. He says that simply occupying does great harm to the treasury, public opinion, and gains nothing.

Iraq is a waste of time.

The Republic was written by Plato, not Socrates. As far as we know Socrates didn't write a sylable. As far as The Prince it's worth remembering some of the things advocated therin. Machiavelli himself believed he was going to hell.

[Husar]

Geez, the most GaH!-thread ever. What a complete waste of time this.

For intellectual stimulation I'd sooner join a sandbox of six-year olds discussing whose dad can beat up whose other dad.
You're just mad because my dad could beat your dad any day.

[Adrian II]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3201002.ece

Mr. Gates, if I were you I'd be inspecting my foot, you've got a great big bloody hole in it!

What is it with the US administration? Unless you're blowing doors off houses and piling in, all guns blazing, you're not doing the job properly. Idiots. :thumbsdown:From the LA Times:


"Most of the European forces, NATO forces, are not trained in counterinsurgency; they were trained for the Fulda Gap," Gates said, referring to the German region where a Soviet invasion of Western Europe was deemed most likely.

[..]

Gates' views, however, reflect those expressed recently by senior U.S. military officials with responsibility for Afghanistan. Some have said that an overreliance on heavy weaponry, including airstrikes, by NATO forces in the south may unwittingly be contributing to rising violence there.It seems to me that Gates was criticising other NATO partners for relying too much on the big guns, not the other way round. He is right that such tactics, dictated by lack of manpower, fear of bodybags and other small-town considerations, is counterproductive. Yes, most of our crappy little battalions are doing a decent job under American supervision, nothing less, and certainly nothing more. That's NATO for you.

The gentleman has apologized, by the way. I don't see why, except for reasons of political expedience, he would have to apologize for his accurate analysis.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Whether his analysis is correct or not:

A) Many of those nations are trained for counter-insurgency.

B) The Record of the US is likely the worst of all the Allies.

In other words, it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black, when the pot hasn't ever been cleaned.

He's made himself look like a nit and he's riled up everyone else.

There was a time when such guffs cost men their jobs.

[Adrian II]

Whether his analysis is correct or not:

A) Many of those nations are trained for counter-insurgency.They are not. They may have histories of counter-insurgency operations, but over the past fifty years they have, in the main, trained for the Fulda Gap as the man said.
B) The Record of the US is likely the worst of all the Allies.It's a big country with a big army that makes big mistakes. In this forum we often accuse U.S. troops of being either wasteful and ineffective or overzealous and genocidal. Now that our own tiny troops come under criticism for their tiny mistakes, our inner child is hurt and we can't wait to get back at Daddy. It is pathetic.

[KrooK]

The Republic was written by Plato, not Socrates
Finally interesting information. In Poland this title is being translated as Państwo, which means rather "State" than Republic. Thx for information - It might help me on philosophy exam.

[Abokasee]

US accuses Britain of inexperience in Taleban conflict.

Maybe I will tick the "communist" box on that little green sheet of paper when entering MUAHHAHAAHHAHAHAHH! (Just too see what will happen, although I can predict a baton and some hand cuffs will be envolved) or give them a really long talk about my idea of the perfect goverment which only has one flaw in it

Blaming britain and the other major countries in Afghanistan is a bit silly, USA has always seemed to be bad at counter-insurgancy, vietnam was a disaster for that reason, the general (or man in charge of it, I don't really care about it) treated as a convential war, they had everything going for them, Modern Aircraft, larger numbers (Estimated 1,200,000 troops at 1968 vs the 520,000, although out numbered later on) Better Equipment, but they just :daisy: it up, with a few accidently massacres, and other things.

[Adrian II]

Blaming britain and the other major countries in Afghanistan is a bit silly, USA has always seemed to be bad at counter-insurgancy, vietnam was a disaster for that reason [..]That was in the past. Most European attempts at counter-insurgency during and after decolonization were utter disasters ending in bloodshed: the French in Algeria and Indo-China; the British in India/Pakistan, the Middle East, Malaysia, Kenya, Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, Ireland and Northern Ireland; the Dutch in Indonesia and Papua New Guinea; the Portuguese in Angola and Mozambique; the European blue helmets in former Yogoslavia.

Need I go on?

As to the present, the recently (January 1) retired Dutch ambassador to Kabul, Daan Everts, has given a rather revealing interview to our leading quality evening paper NRC Handelsblad today.

Everts confirms nearly everything Gates and various American high brass have said. He says the European NATO partners know just about everything there is to know about counter-insurgency, but 'in theory only'.

In practice, he says, the U.S. are far ahead: "The Americans invest far more in terms of finances, they spend hundres of millions on establishing schools and clinics and building roads, which is crucial in maintainous terrain. The Dutch, the Canadians and the British are doing this on a far smaller scale. Furthermore the Americans are miles ahead when it comes to involving the Afghan army and police in their operations. This is of the essence in counter-insurgency: if an Afghan door needs kicking in, it's better that an Afghan does it than a foreigner. The Americans have done much more to train Afghan police; after all it is lack of order and justice that leads to Talibanization. The German police-training got off on the wrong foot, the EU then took over and the impact is negligible as before."

Everts confirms that the American comand favors ground troops far more than its European counterparts: "It allows for more precise actions, which is very important for effective conter-insurgency. But there aren't enough ground troops available because some European countries don't want to commit them."

Put that in yer Gurkha pipe and smoke it, lads.

[InsaneApache]

Need I go on?

Malayan emergency? Succesful counter-insurgency.

Northern Ireland-not what you could call an insurgency.


the British in India/Pakistan, the Middle East, Malaysia, Kenya, Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, Ireland and Northern Ireland

Don't recall any insurgency in India in 1947. Rhodesia/Zimbabwe declaration of Unilateral Independence, nowt to do with the British, until the Lancaster Gate initiative. Eire was created under the 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty and formally declared independent in 1937. The Mau Mau insurgency ultimately failed in Kenya. Pointless anyway as the empire was at it's fag end anyroad.

I would respectfully suggest that the British Army has more experience of counter insurgency than almost any other army on the planet.

As for being trained for action in the Fulder Gap, probably true for a lot of NATO, although nearly 20 years has elapsed since then.

I still think Mr. Gates put his size 9 in his gob. :yes:


Put that in yer Gurkha pipe and smoke it, lads. :laugh4:

You forgot to mention that the US troops are in former Northern Alliance territory. A lot easier to police than Helmand province, a former Taliban stronghold. :skull:

[Conradus]

Finally interesting information. In Poland this title is being translated as Państwo, which means rather "State" than Republic. Thx for information - It might help me on philosophy exam.

Since republic as a word didn't exist in ancient greece, you might as well translate 'politeia' with state, it doesn't make much difference.

[Justiciar]

I'm with Louis and Adrian on this one. It's not a big deal, and the reactions of some are really quite pitiful.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I still think Mr. Gates put his size 9 in his gob. :yes:Nah. What was so outrageous about it? Even if I would think that Gates was wrong, which I don't, then I still think the diplomatic row about his interview was nothing more than the adult version of what happened in this thread on page one. Please, summoned American ambassadors? British MP's that are 'outraged'? Give me a break.

Our trigger-happy gung-ho friends across the Atlantic do have the capacity to transform themselves very quickly. And the news from Iraq and Afghanistan nowadays is that the Americans are actually doing a much improved job. This is not Ronald Dumsfeld speaking anymore, this is his successor, Gates.

And Gates is right: 'Most of the European forces, NATO forces, are not trained in counterinsurgency; they were trained for the Fulda Gap," Gates said, referring to the German region where a Soviet invasion of Western Europe was deemed most likely'.

The Americans have been much quicker to transform their military from a large standing army with lots of gunz and tankz to a professional counter-insurgency instrument. In training, equipment and strategy. The British are actually close behind them. Belatedly, France and Canada are finally slowly waking up. Maybe a French capacity to transport 15k men to the Afghan hills would be more useful than the nuclear aircraft carrier 'Charles de Gaulle' in the Indian ocean. So we won't have to limit our contribution to 500 men drinking tea in safe Kabul anymore. Germany, shockingly, is simply not capable of supplying any meaningful contribution if they wanted to. The German army is still dug in in the mud in Hessen waiting for the mighty Soviet army to come. Italy and Spain are not much better.

I don't know about the also-rans like the Poles, the Dutch and the Faeroer. ~;)

[Husar]

Louis, that hit deep in my nationalist heart, I demand an apology now! :laugh4:

I think we have the KSK and the GSG9, problem is the latter is a police force and they're both rather small. Like I said before, the normal army just goes to where it's safe so nothing happens to their beer, the bottles are quite vulnerable to bullets. :sweatdrop:

[InsaneApache]

Louis, that hit deep in my nationalist heart, I demand an apology now! :laugh4:

I think we have the KSK and the GSG9, problem is the latter is a police force and they're both rather small. Like I said before, the normal army just goes to where it's safe so nothing happens to their beer, the bottles are quite vulnerable to bullets. :sweatdrop:

Ahh for the 'old days'...................:shame:

[KrooK]

Since republic as a word didn't exist in ancient greece, you might as well translate 'politeia' with state, it doesn't make much difference

Hm I think you are right. According to polish philosophy of law "Politea" (politeia) is perfect regime when middle-clans citizens are ruling country (Arystoteles "Politics"). Into Plato's (here we are calling his Platon) "Dialogues" part called "State" or "Republic" might be translated as dialogue which describes perfectly established country.

Anyway thank you for information.

[Adrian II]

Northern Ireland-not what you could call an insurgency.Lol, so why were 27.000 British soldiers camping there by the end of 1972, and why is the episode called "counter-insurgency" in every military manual if there was no insurgency? You may think you have a way with words, whereas what you have is a dead end.

[Tribesman]

Its rather sad to see so many people defending their countries military ability and attacking others .
Whats the point ?
Don't you know that the Irish army is the best and if it wasn't for our 7 soldiers the whole counter-insurgency in Afghanistan would be a waste of time .

[Husar]

Don't you know that the Irish army is the best and if it wasn't for our 7 soldiers the whole counter-insurgency in Afghanistan would be a waste of time .
:laugh4:

But keep in mind we're keeping your beer safe, so if it wasn't for us...

[KukriKhan]

I'm with Louis and Adrian on this one. It's not a big deal, and the reactions of some are really quite pitiful.

I disagree.

It IS a big deal, in my opinion. It's a throwback to Rummy's "Old Europe" remark, and rather explicitly implies that the NATO forces supplied are incompetent for the job-at-hand. Untrue, I believe. But allowing for the fact that I'm merely an armchair general these days:

If that were true, why was that not known ahead of NATO's deployment to Afghanistan? Why were "Lessons Learned" sessions, including joint-training with US troops returning from "the front", not scheduled, to remedy that perceived problem?

Complaining about the quality of NATO troop training, orientation and strategy after they've deployed and in-theatre, when the date they would deploy was set years ago, is a failure to adequately prepare and coordinate on the part of the US Department of Defense.

And complaining also sets the stage for explaining away (pointing the finger away from the US to Europe & GB) any failure in southern Afghanistan - when that failure can more properly be attributed directly to the diversion of US military assets to the optional war in Iraq.

And complaining (finally) sets the teeth of our erstwhile allies on edge, without good reason, and just adds to the list of "to-do" fence-mending tasks for the next US Prez/CinC/Chief Treaty Negotiator.

Fine legacy; another opportunity to lead, blown by an ill-timed, childish remark.

[Vladimir]

They are not. They may have histories of counter-insurgency operations, but over the past fifty years they have, in the main, trained for the Fulda Gap as the man said.It's a big country with a big army that makes big mistakes. In this forum we often accuse U.S. troops of being either wasteful and ineffective or overzealous and genocidal. Now that our own tiny troops come under criticism for their tiny mistakes, our inner child is hurt and we can't wait to get back at Daddy. It is pathetic.

A good example would be that of the Rangers. Thanks to an English general, colonials developed and honed irregular warfare techniques that were used to great effect against the French, natives, and later the English. The irony is that we later had to go back to England in the 20th century and ask them (ever so kindly I'm sure :unitedkingdom: ) if they could teach us how to become rangers again. :rifle:

[Boyar Son]

And complaining (finally) sets the teeth of our erstwhile allies on edge, without good reason,.


Could that reason be that he thinks the allies arent doing a good job?

[JR-]

Malayan emergency? Succesful counter-insurgency.

Don't recall any insurgency in India in 1947. Rhodesia/Zimbabwe declaration of Unilateral Independence, nowt to do with the British, until the Lancaster Gate initiative. Eire was created under the 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty and formally declared independent in 1937. The Mau Mau insurgency ultimately failed in Kenya. Pointless anyway as the empire was at it's fag end anyroad.

I would respectfully suggest that the British Army has more experience of counter insurgency than almost any other army on the planet.

As for being trained for action in the Fulder Gap, probably true for a lot of NATO, although nearly 20 years has elapsed since then.

to add to what you said.

Malaya was indeed the text-book example of successful counter-insurgency.

And the reference to the Fulda Gap is probably a reference to nations like Germany etc:
http://www.comw.org/pda/9911eur.html#4
-
-
-
-
-
-

[cegorach]

Nah. What was so outrageous about it? Even if I would think that Gates was wrong, which I don't, then I still think the diplomatic row about his interview was nothing more than the adult version of what happened in this thread on page one. Please, summoned American ambassadors? British MP's that are 'outraged'? Give me a break.

Our trigger-happy gung-ho friends across the Atlantic do have the capacity to transform themselves very quickly. And the news from Iraq and Afghanistan nowadays is that the Americans are actually doing a much improved job. This is not Ronald Dumsfeld speaking anymore, this is his successor, Gates.

And Gates is right: 'Most of the European forces, NATO forces, are not trained in counterinsurgency; they were trained for the Fulda Gap," Gates said, referring to the German region where a Soviet invasion of Western Europe was deemed most likely'.

I don't know about the also-rans like the Poles, the Dutch and the Faeroer. ~;)


I concur.


About Polish capability in the are and for the task I cannot tell too much.

I would belive that we are not prepared well enough, but it will change after all we have our sldiers on a dozen of foreign missions right now and some of them include such operations.

In addition it is usually selected combat groups consisiting of volunteers with previous experience in Iraq who are sent to Afghanistan.



There were doubts about equipment failures, but apparently such criticism (e.g. 'Rosomak' APC case) seems to haste and unsupported by the real performance.

More pressing matter is the question of command structure which needs to be revised for such operations.

Overall it isn't so bad and the mission will help in the process of structural changes and modernisation.
The only obstacle is the amount of money we can afford to update the equipment of the forces remaning in Poland, but that is why the new government is bargaing so hard to get some material support from the USA for deploying the anti-missile shield here.
Overall I would give us a B, perhaps with a minus for the progress which is apparently not so bad - however
I wouldn't speak so kindly about Germany and some other countries (though in my opinion Germany is the most visable example) which with the resources it can spend doesn't do well enough.


My regards Cegorach

[Fragony]

[
I would belive that we are not prepared well enough

I am sorry but for what you don't? Mad respect for every polish because everything we will ever be is because of them, but I know people from there and it would help if allies actually did something.

[Oleander Ardens]

It is actually funny that somebody mentions the 10th mountain division as suited to fight in the mountains - given that they say "We don't do mountains" (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article197753.ece). Yeah sad but true, a mountain division which isn't trained in mountain warfare.

But at least they guarded their camp with style

Priceless :yes:

[Redleg]

It is actually funny that somebody mentions the 10th mountain division as suited to fight in the mountains - given that they say "We don't do mountains" (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article197753.ece). Yeah sad but true, a mountain division which isn't trained in mountain warfare.

But at least they guarded their camp with style

Priceless :yes:

That is rather funny since the 10th Mountain trains in the Western mountain ranges of New York and use to send lots of soldiers to Winter Warfare school in Alaska.

WIth the server of your link being down - its hard to see the validality of your post.

But yes at least until 2000 10th Mountain was trained in Mountain warfare - just not mountains as high as those in Afganstan.

[KukriKhan]

Oleander Ardens apparently has a long memory. He cites an article of April 2002 in the UK's Independent newspaper, that mostly discusses Brit Marine and SAS operations in Afghan mountains, then quotes a(n un-named) source from 10 MtnDiv:


The problems faced by the US commander of the war, General Tommy Franks, were highlighted by an interview given by a member of the US 10th Mountain Division, who said: "We don't do mountains".

Don't know why that guy said that.

(I still had that webpage in my internet cache, before it 404'd)

[Redleg]

Oleander Ardens apparently has a long memory. He cites an article of April 2002 in the UK's Independent newspaper, that mostly discusses Brit Marine and SAS operations in Afghan mountains, then quotes a(n un-named) source from 10 MtnDiv:



Don't know why that guy said that.

(I still had that webpage in my internet cache, before it 404'd)

Now that make since - a grunt will often say things to the media that conflict what the stated mission and training of the division is and was.

However that does not make it the reality of where and how the division trains and fights - given that the 10th Mountain, 82nd and 101st have been primarily the divisions rotating to Afganstan.

[rory_20_uk]

I recently read an extremely good book entitled "The Utility of Force" By Rupert Smith.

Most modern conflicts are not the old fashioned total wars where targets are clear and the enemy can be easily defined, they are conflicts where the battlefield is poorly defined and the opposition are not easy to detect. Most armies in the world are still trying to fight this conflict with armies that are geared up to combat the Soviet threat.

Winning the conflict requires alienating the enemy and not having the same thing done to yourself.

I understand that the US is upset that another exercise in winning hearts and minds by building hospitals so the locals can visit their relatives who were in the wrong place at the wrong time can be visited isn't working.

Afghanistan has never really worked as a country. Why should we be surprised it still doesn't? Northern Pakistan / Iran is probably in the same situation in terms of lawlessness but there happens to be a line in the sand.

~:smoking:

[Kagemusha]

Well if it relieves anyone´s hurt egos. I can admit that atleast the operation in Afghanistan will not fail because of Finnish forces, since our tiny force of little over hundred soldiers have been so far only successful in wounding one of our own after Afghan police decided to disturb their night live fire exercise by opening fire to them. Our brave soldiers decided to shoot their own sentry, probably because the poor fellow let the bad afghanis to disturb the jolly shooting exercise that was ongoing. Luckily because it was so dark our vicious fighters were only able to injure the poor sentry. Finnish courts are now pondering whether to charge the sentry for failing to guard his comrades or the shooters for not being able to take out permanently the off guard sentry.:laugh4:
Our single casualty came when a Finnish sergeant blew away into high heavens with assistance of IED,while escorting Norwegian medical personnel to a local hospital in Maimana.
I think its better that our troops keep observing the situation, or more casualties will surely follow. To whom...its probably best if we dont find out.:smg:

[Oleander Ardens]

I'm glad that my little remark with no too much of a fondation surprisingly caused the same reaction as the one of Mr. Gates. Who likes that his country and his forces get the blame?

Strange that some don't understand it's nature and act like "Mine is better than yours"...

:balloon2: