View Full Version : Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?
Tony Furze
01-19-2008, 07:34
Well, I started a campaign in the middle of the map (as Hojo, I believe) because , foolishly, I was fascinated by a clan that had peasants as its bonus troops... it didn t take very long for my "kingdom" to be carved up like a birthday cake.
So Im playing as Shimazu now.
One difference from MTW-the bridge battles. On defence the AI (the Mori clan) tends to stand its troops a little back from the bridge, unlike in MTW where it does everything except stand on the bridge itself.
The only counter I ve found is to use my general with his cav to charge across the bridge , deflect left and break up the army defending while my men (inf) rush across. This distracting tactic can result in my Gen routing (shame!) So far its not had an effect on my advancing men (I m playing on Normal difficulty) who let their leader shoulder his way through them across the bridge and over the hills and far away....
Well, I started a campaign in the middle of the map (as Hojo, I believe) because , foolishly, I was fascinated by a clan that had peasants as its bonus troops... it didn t take very long for my "kingdom" to be carved up like a birthday cake.
That'd be the Oda clan. The Hojo are the ones in between the Takeda & Uesugi clans (towards the eastern end of the map), and they can build cheap castles. ~:)
One difference from MTW-the bridge battles. On defence the AI (the Mori clan) tends to stand its troops a little back from the bridge, unlike in MTW where it does everything except stand on the bridge itself.
The only counter I ve found is to use my general with his cav to charge across the bridge , deflect left and break up the army defending while my men (inf) rush across. This distracting tactic can result in my Gen routing (shame!) So far its not had an effect on my advancing men (I m playing on Normal difficulty) who let their leader shoulder his way through them across the bridge and over the hills and far away....
When assaulting bridges, I generally deploy a company of light horse (usually Cavalry Archers, although YC works okay too) to lure the enemy out of formation and chase be back across the bridge -- and into the arms of my waiting YA/YS. ~D
If the AI sees through the ruse and refuses to take the bait, however, then I'll make pincushions out of them with my Samurai Archers. Eventually the enemy weakens enough that I can generally then force an old-fashioned frontal assault. Bloody, but it usually works.
Tony Furze
01-20-2008, 02:34
"That'd be the Oda clan."
Thanks Martok-as you can see Im pretty new. Originally I was daunted by the exotic strangeness of Shogun after the relative familiarity of MTW VI. Now Im fascinated.
I treat it as a whole new game if not experience-inspite of apparent similarities:
the same "Hoy!" when you move any stacks
the stack idea itself
the Risk like campaign map
etc etc
The fact is, in many wys, I like it alot-it has atmosphere, simplicity and charm.
I ve just managed to get a useful Japan map for the game to help me out and Im combing places to find useful stuff. Theres still quite a bit to discover...
Thanks again.
R'as al Ghul
01-20-2008, 11:08
I ve just managed to get a useful Japan map for the game to help me out and Im combing places to find useful stuff. Theres still quite a bit to discover...
Thanks again.
Hey Toni,
have you seen this: http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/TotalwarShogun/ ?
There's a Japan map with resources and you can find strategy tips there.
:bow:
Enjoy the game, Tony! Many of us keep going back every once in a while to play this gem.
And if you have questions, don't be afraid to ask ~:)
Tony Furze
01-20-2008, 14:46
Rás al Ghul : that s the very map I m using. The whole site is very tastefully made.
Wasp:Thanks very much.
My Shimazu look like theyre about to overwhelm the map soon. The Dutch have arrived with gunpowder and shot. And i have a Geisha terrorising the Daimyos and their sons.
Welcome to the club, I've never had much luck playing a "middle" faction. There is a delicate balance between turtling and attacking that I can't figure out. I usually lose fairly quickly.
Winter is here, about time for another campaign.
Love the game. glad this forum is still here to help out on occaison.
Matt
Tony Furze
01-27-2008, 07:06
This part of the Forum is like coming to one of those fresh mountain top retreats
where the air is clear and clouds can be seen below drifting past...
The game is very impressive-excellent-with so many subtleties at both campaign and battle levels. I ve won twice-Oda on Easy which I played all battles on autocalc just to get used to the Shogun engine.
Then I was Shimazu on Normal, and I played out the battles till it was quite obvious victory was mine. I have never come across such real heroism you can generate in your units! You feel really proud of them after!
So now its onto Hard...
Awesome, Tony. (I confess I'm a little envious that you're getting to enjoy Shogun this way -- there's nothing like your first time!) ~:cheers: Have you decided as to which clan you're going to play as in your next campaign?
Tony Furze
01-27-2008, 18:00
Thanks Martok. Its really a thrill to play this game... I m glad I went back to it.
I ve started a Hard Campaign as Uesugi. I ve already been attacked several times by various neighbours. Again I m amazed at the heroism that is more apparent than in MTW-something to do with the combination of fewer, more specialized units, the weather and the landscape.
It really gives it an epic feel.
I ve started a Hard Campaign as Uesugi. I ve already been attacked several times by various neighbours.
Yeah, that'll happen -- especially when you've got Shinano. :yes: Thank goodness the province has defensible terrain, otherwise it would be impossible to hold onto! (As it is, I've still lost it from time to time, as I can't always beat the back the constant attacks. :embarassed: )
Again I m amazed at the heroism that is more apparent than in MTW-something to do with the combination of fewer, more specialized units, the weather and the landscape.
It really gives it an epic feel.
Indeed it does. Shogun's always felt a little more "personal" to me as well, like I'm really there with my men and slogging it out against the enemy.
In addition to the superb landscape and weather affects -- which in my experience, have yet to be surpassed by any other game I've ever played -- I absolutely love the music, both in combat and on the campaign map. STW's soundtrack remains superior to any other title I have, especially in terms of instilling atmosphere.
Ah, Tony and Martok. It makes me smile to read you're thinking the same way of this game. :bow:I actually took took the cd's to uni now! ~:) Will be the first time in a loooong time playing Shogun again. I have Rome here too, but gah.. it's just too simple and boring :S
Btw, good to hear you're making good progress. Keep asking specific questions on campaigns and battles!
About the rivers.. well, I usually did the same, taking 1 cavalry unit to cross the bridge and have a part of their army leave the defence to chase it, so the rest could cross more safely. Another tactic was to use my daimyo or a naginata unit or so to cross the bridge, and then just wait. the AI always sends non-ranged units to charge when you get something across the bridge. then I would retreat quickly, and shoot up the charging enemies with loads of archers from my side of the river. the get shot down real quick, because they group together at the bridge and they always wander around for a bit before returning to the rest of their army. of course, this works better vs. ashigaru's, no-dachi's, or warrior monk's, because they have few armour.
It works loads better when the army has no(/few) archers, then your 'bait' won't get hurt and you can kills hundreds losing none.. ~:)
have fun! :bow:
I have Rome here too, but gah.. it's just too simple and boring :S
I'm stuck with RTW for now, because my graphics card/motherboard won't run MTW/STW due to the infinite loop bug. I must say though that I'm slowly getting into the campaign map game and can now see some of it's potential, but it's shortcomings where battles are concerned are often extremely annoying.
To a certain extent I can deal with the battles being too easy as a result of the stupidity of the AI (e.g. no attempt to flank, chariots and cavalry (including the general) charging a phalanx head on etc) but the numerous glitches are what annoy me the most, such as units stuck inside siege towers and extremely poor pathfinding, positioning and manoeuvering inside the city walls. Though I suppose STW/MTW admittedly didn't have real sieges anyway.
This is pretty much why I won't buy M2TW - at least not until I can legally purchase it for next to nothing. Many people swallowed the hype about that being so good and being the 3rd generation of TW but in the end it turned out that Empire is more likely to be the 3G and that M2TW was just a heavily modded RTW with many of the same flaws and some new ones added.
I'm To a certain extent I can deal with the battles being too easy as a result of the stupidity of the AI (e.g. no attempt to flank, chariots and cavalry (including the general) charging a phalanx head on etc) but the numerous glitches are what annoy me the most, such as units stuck inside siege towers and extremely poor pathfinding, positioning and manoeuvering inside the city walls. Though I suppose STW/MTW admittedly didn't have real sieges anyway.
Ah yes... glitches indeed. I hated defending a city because I couldn't normally use my army/units.. But most annoying I found that I won any battle within second killing 95% of the enemies, using an all-cav army. (I played BI as the saxons, first campaign was my last right away) Sometimes heavy spearmen stood and fought for a seconds but then of course I flanked them and they routed and died as well.. it was just too simple. With just one army I could wipe out dozens of others.. :dizzy2: I must admit, I liked the campaign map and new possibilities in the campaigns.
This is pretty much why I won't buy M2TW - at least not until I can legally purchase it for next to nothing.
Hehe, me too. I waited very long with RTW, and I'm going to wait very long with MTW2 as well. ~;)
Another few "bugs" I forgot to mention: Firstly the phalanx bug. This is probably one of the worst in fact. It is where the AI phalanxes appear to be unsure as to whether they should be in phalanx formation or not and keep switching in an out of it. As a result their formation get's twisted up into a mess and they are easy pickings... but then when you charge your cavalry at them they miraculously all try to go back into phalanx mode but totally out of formation and facing in several different directions. Despite this mess they actually seem to be partially effective and suffer no real penalties for this disorder. The second bug, is the "skirmisher still skirmishing while out of ammo" bug. I remember chasing some eastern general heavy cavalry all over the map for about 20 minutes once because of this. It was obvious that the AI was still under the impression it was throwing missiles. Eventually I had to carefully surround the unit, pincer it and rout it off the field. More like "Sheepdog Trials: Total War".
It's a pity CA don't wake up and bring back the old battles of STW/MTW. If the battles were improved for a possible "S2TW" I could live with the campaign map.
The second bug, is the "skirmisher still skirmishing while out of ammo" bug. I remember chasing some eastern general heavy cavalry all over the map for about 20 minutes once because of this. It was obvious that the AI was still under the impression it was throwing missiles. Eventually I had to carefully surround the unit, pincer it and rout it off the field. More like "Sheepdog Trials: Total War".
hehehe :laugh4:
I never liked skirmishing enemies in any of the series :P But that's ok, it would be strange if you liked the way your enemy is acting as a general. ~:) In STW I often got in trouble because of time limits and skirmishing enemies. (especially mongol light cavalry!) Then I discover the most simple way around though.. Just don't chase them, let them fire, while you block off any possible escape route.. then engage and kill all. ;)
In Rome I just sent some light cav after skirmishing enemies and for some reason they always cought then, it was just a matter of time.. :dizzy2:
It's a pity CA don't wake up and bring back the old battles of STW/MTW.
Indeed. Yet, they are doing well, economically seen, I guess? (I don't know for sure) Lots of people buy the game, love it for a few weeks, never get past 'easy', and never understand even half of the game.. but CA has their money. For us, people that dug deeper into stw, and love the game for atmosphere and the complex battle strategies etc, any of the later releases have been quite disappointing.
btw, a while ago I couldn't get MTW:VI multiplayer to work, despite doing what everybody said was necessary. Nobody understood, so I looked for support. After lots of tiring tries, CA sent me to Sega, Sega didn't reply, etc, etc,etc. There is no proper support. I'm just mentioning because, CA overall doesn't seem very nice to us at all... :no:
Edit: Tony! this might help you!
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=56338
It's a sticky here :P Well, it has links to all sorts of campaig stories. If you look back on the last 10-20 pages, there's some detailed reports of battles as well. Campaign stories are usually quite fun to read, and can be very helpful!
Have fun!
:bow:
And don't forget to just sit back and enjoy as you slowly see the world map filled with your own (blue Uesugi ~;) ) colour..
I've been playing Shogun on and off for years. It never loses its' charm. Just finished a campaign with the Uesugi and now am trying out the Hojo. Does anyone know what advantages the AI gets on the harder settings? I've always played at normal as for me this is hard enough..lol.
Hi thip,
Welcome! ~:wave:
On Hard, (and Hardest, the more) the units's the computer uses in battle will be counted with having +1 honour, iirc. So, it's actually a way of cheating for the computer. (on hardest it's +2)
I don't know how the difficulty involves the campaign phase (not battles).. It get slight smarter, I guess..
Note: I used to play on and off as well (still do), and I was always on Easy and Normal, until I became active here. Reading stories, and asking things, etc etc. In no time I could win at Expert.(easily!)
So, stick around if you want to defeat expert soon ~;) :P Questions are more than welcome!
On the difficulty, as for battles, Normal is fair. On Easy, you cheat. On Hard the AI cheats. On Hardest it cheats even harder.
cya!
:bow:
Hello Drisos,
thanks for the quick reply. The increased honour would make it very hard to break the enemies morale. I would definitely have to plan a lot more in advance when attacking....which is hard enough, but very rewarding when the enemy breaks and runs.
Another silly question. Hope you don't mind. But I played a number of campaigns as the Shimazu (Green guys on the western side of Nippon). I would take all the Ronin territory, knock out Mori (Red guys) and move into central japan...to be confronted by Uesugi who out numbers my armies by 10 to 1...rofl.
Silly question..but is it possible for the Shimazu to win? I gave up with them in the end.
Sasaki Kojiro
02-05-2008, 06:01
It is possible. The solution would be to attack faster, or to hold on difensive ground such as that river province just left of yamashiro (kawasaki?) and use archers/muskets to destroy the attacking uesugi.
testing...
It's definitely possible to win, but the Uesugi have the more fertile lands, therefore more cash to spend on troops and upgrades. Like Sasaki says, you'll have to be fast or smart. Preferably both ~;)
Parallel Pain
02-06-2008, 19:53
Is this map http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/TotalwarShogun/
the game map?
Cause it doesn't seem very...historically accurate?
Is this map http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/TotalwarShogun/
the game map?
Cause it doesn't seem very...historically accurate?
I assume you mean the "Map of Japan". Yes, that's the map as used in the game. Notice that it is turned a bit compared to the map of Japan we know from the regular world map; this might have caused your confusion.
Parallel Pain
02-07-2008, 05:07
No what I mean is why does the Oda have such a large area. Didn't Nobunaga actually have to UNITE Owari province first?
And why is Takeda split in two? I thought the Takeda was confined to Kai before Shingen's expansion.
And shouldn't Uesugi not have Echigo, as someone had usurped it? (They only get it back after the Uesugi guy passed on his name to the would-to-be-Uesuigi-Kenshin guy. I'm pretty sure even though the Uesugi had Kantoukanrei title they didn't have real control over the northern provinces.
And they most definately should not have Shinano.
That sort of stuff.
Sasaki Kojiro
02-07-2008, 05:11
The original shogun had a historically innacurate campaign map. The expansion included three campaigns starting in 1530, 1550, and 1580 which have as you say, the Takeda confined to Kai and The Oda in Owari. Of course the expansion also includes invisible ninja super warriors ~:)
Parallel Pain
02-07-2008, 05:35
Is there some way to mod out battle ninjas and kensais?
Along with any other fantasy unit I don't know about?
And make the new units more balanced?
I don't think you can get them out, but you can at least mod their stats in such a way that they become useless. Don't know if that's something you're looking for.
Parallel Pain
02-09-2008, 00:56
Can I make them so expensive that NO ONE would be able to afford them?
Like Iunno 100 000 koku for one?
Parallel Pain
02-09-2008, 01:01
Sorry for double post *Where is the edit button*
If this can be done, would it mess around the AI?
Sasaki Kojiro
02-09-2008, 01:58
It might be possible to tweak it so that the AI never builds it. Check around the modding forum for a thread about removing the geisha.
Parallel Pain
02-09-2008, 08:11
Thanks
Is there a link for a picture of the 3 campaign map starting positions of warlord edition?
Sorry for double post *Where is the edit button*
If this can be done, would it mess around the AI?
I think the edit button isn't there for Junior Members, but I could be wrong.
I unfortunately don't know if it would screw up the AI, though. Sorry.
Another silly question. Hope you don't mind. But I played a number of campaigns as the Shimazu (Green guys on the western side of Nippon). I would take all the Ronin territory, knock out Mori (Red guys) and move into central japan...to be confronted by Uesugi who out numbers my armies by 10 to 1...rofl.
Silly question..but is it possible for the Shimazu to win? I gave up with them in the end.
Hey! Cool to hear. I had the same problem when I was new to the game. If I'd be Uesugi/Hojo the Shimazu/Mori would outnumber me, and vice versa. Just practice. If you get used to bigger/chaotic battles, etc, you'll kick ass even when outnumbered. ~;) (keep asking stuff!)
More simple is to expand your territory faster. If you conquer 2/3 of the map before Uesugi gains the upper hand in the east, he'll stand no chance. It's a matter of, who grows 'big' as the first.
Advice if you need to expand faster... practice small battles a lot, and, attack people even when you have the same number of samurai, or even less. If you can still win small battles when the enemy has more men, you'll get to conquer lands much faster. (don't have to wait till you have huge armies first, to attack ~;)) also, you can keep a closer look on taxes. you can adjust them sometimes to prevent rebellion while leaving minimal units in regions you've recently conquered.
oh yes and as mentioned: playing as the Uesugi/Hojo the problem will be less. They are 'easier clans'. It's easy for them to conquer lands/win, etc.
I think the edit button isn't there for Junior Members, but I could be wrong.
correct, I guess.
Thanks for the reply Drisos. I won a campaign with Uesugi recently and am now playing as hojo on normal and life is definately a lot easier. So much koku to spend...
After this campaign I might try my Green friends again...
A general question guys..do you develop only a couple of provinces with full upgrades to produce specific units or aim to build large castle/fortresses with upgrades in all provinces?
Most players tend to devote specific provinces to producing certain units. So you may have 1 or 2 provinces for Naginata/Heavy Cavalry, another couple provinces for Warrior Monks, etc.
Of course, the lower-tier units -- Yari Ashigaru, Yari Samurai, and Samurai Archers -- can often be produced in a lot of places, as most of your provinces will have Spear Dojos and/or Archery Dojos. That said, it can still be worthwhile to build up specific provinces to train those 3 units as well, provided you're willing to upgrade the Spear/Archery Dojos (along with the castle). :yes:
Thanks Martok. I have been building perhaps too many upgrades in too many provinces. Running out of koku for more units.
Looking on some of the older threads I noticed there is a lot of talk about Shinano. Don't you just love Shinano. Playing as the Uesugi a few weeks ago I decided to hang onto the province and was attacked repeatedly by Oda, Imagawa and Takeda.
In one memorable battle I was down to 300 troops, mostly archers, when Oda paid a visit with 800 troops. Mostly Yari Ashigari, or so I thought. I placed (or misplaced after reading some threads) my troops at the centre of the valley, up high thinking my flanks would be safe.
When Oda's troops emerged from the forest on my right I was feeling a little nervous. The general was leading his troops and they were running as fast as they could to my right flank.
The hail of arrows didn't slow them one iota. They just marched straight up the hill. One huge sea of Ashigaru. I sent my two Yari Samauri to protect the right flank.My general and Odas' clashing head on.
Then I hear "your general has forsaken his honour..." Being so close to the edge of the map he was gone in seconds. In the heat of the moment I hadn't even noticed two Yari Cavalry hit my left flank. The horde of Ashigaru crested the hill and all looked lost. It would only be seconds before my leaderless and outflanked troops fled.
But they held their ground ..holding back the horde...when suddenly a miracle happened. "You have taken the head of the enemy general.." How lucky could you be? I threw my archers into the fray and the Ashigaru wavered..and ran...
The cavalry put up more of a fight, but it was battle over. So there it is...300 (without a leader) against 800...and winning...just.
What a great game....and don't you just love Shinano?
PS As for the disgraced general, I tried dropping a ninja on him but the damn game wouldn't let me..lol.
Yup, that's an example of the greatness of this game ~:)
No problem, thip. :bow:
I have been building perhaps too many upgrades in too many provinces. Running out of koku for more units.
Yeah, it's a common enough mistake for first-time STW players to make. (I myself was suffering the same fate when I first started playing before I finally learned better. ~;) ) Money in Shogun is generally harder to come by than in the other Total War games, so you have to be more careful about what you spend....and just as importantly, where you spend it.
A few tips for you (some of which are probably pretty obvious, but I'll list them anyway just to be on the safe side):
1.) If you own a province that grants an honour bonus to a certain unit, then by all means go ahead and tech up that province so you can train that unit there. So if you own Kaga, you should build up that province so you can train Buddhist Warrior Monks. If you own Totomi, make sure you can train Samurai Archers there. And so on.
2.) Location, location, location. I try to concentrate my main troop-training centers in strategically-located provinces that connect to several of my other provinces. That way it cuts down on the transit time needed to get new units up to my border armies, as well as minimizing the time needed to retrain battered units and bring them back to the frontlines.
2a.) Remember to upgrade your castles in provinces that have rich farmland and/or mines. Mines can be upgraded to Mine Complexes, but you first have to upgrade the castle (to Fortress, if I'm not mistaken) in the province the mine is located in. I believe farm upgrades (at least some of them) require the castle to be upgraded as well.
3.) If you own any provinces with iron sand deposits, you should generally focus them on training just Heavy Cavalry and/or Naginata. (They're the only units that require iron sand deposits.)
3a.) Shinano is a major exception to this, as it grants a +1 honour bonus to *all* cavalry units, not just HC. If you own Shinano (and have actually managed to hold onto it ~D ), then feel free to build it up so that you can train all your cavalry units there.
There's probably a lot more advice I could add, but that should probably suffice for now. Let us know if you have any other questions or problems!
Thanks for the advice Martok. Now I just have to put it into practise. There is obviously a balance between troop producing and province development that I need to find.
Thanks for the advice Martok. Now I just have to put it into practise. There is obviously a balance between troop producing and province development that I need to find.
Ah, yes indeed. Of course, I you build too much, you want money to actuallly use it. So, my priorities are usually,
1. Training new troops.
2. Economical improvements (farmlands, etc, etc)
3. Technological improvements in main training region
4. technological improvements in others training regions
and, to give an indication, I usually build improved farmlands 100% in all regions that say to be good for farming in the description you get when you rightclick. I start upgrading them from year 1.
Furthermore, I use only 1-2 training regions in the beginning. If the campaign gets really far, I might take 2-3 more. For instance, when I'm uesugi, I build up Mutsu, and Shinano. (because of the cavalry plus) Then, I usually take one of the other clans main regions as third centre. (shimosa/kai, or preferably totomi because of the archers) I usually destroy all but financial buildings in regions I conquer. next, I always keep yamashiro for training purposes. I strongly recommend you to do so too.
with 4 you should have enough capacity already.. you can take more though.. Kaga, Kii, Owari, Satsuma, etc etc. Just don't go crazy and build training buildings in half of your regions. only increase the number of regions when you notice you have so much money you can't get rid of it. And especially, keep improving economically!
and btw, I do love Shinano indeed. It's great for killing loads of enemies!! ~:) I usually kill a few hundred of Imagawa #turn1, and I keep killing loads of Imagawa, Oda, Takeda troughout the game. I usually pick the huge hill to the left of the enemy's starting position. And I make sure I have loads of archers!! :yes:
:bow:
Thanks Drisos. I think I get the idea. One or two provinces building high quality units. Once established expand from there. Excellent.
Having fun with Hojo last night. I had just finished off Imagawa and Oda. Japan is nicely carved up into thirds,,Shimazu, Mori and Hojo when tragedy struck...CTD...and I hadn't saved in hours...
LittleGrizzly
02-14-2008, 03:56
Every coastal province can give you a gaurenteed 250 koku income a turn just by building a stage 1 castle and a port
If the enemy army consists of alot of low morale troops try to just quickly hit a few of thier units from all sides and this should start a rout chain going
If you have quite a few cavalry in your army you can often distract some of the computers units take them on a litttle detour and then either use the cavalry to pick of the units that followed you or send the cavarly sprinting into the back of the enemy whilst your main line hits them from the front. If they both hit at the same time then even with hugely inferior numbers and quality the enemy should rout.
when tragedy struck...CTD...and I hadn't saved in hours...
Hey, there's always autosave! (I thought?)
You can load the 'autosave' file just from the 'load game' screen. You probably won't get back as far as you were, but definitely not hours back either.
Ports are good, but actually dangerous, you can be attacked trough sea! Though I've seen the AI do it only very(!!!) rarely.
LittleGrizzly
02-14-2008, 18:24
Ports are good, but actually dangerous, you can be attacked trough sea! Though I've seen the AI do it only very(!!!) rarely.
really ? never saw this happen...
also another good point on the ports it makes transporting armys around alot easier!
Togakure
02-14-2008, 21:18
It's rare, but they do attack port to port on Expert difficulty. Usually it's the Shimazu or Mori, sending a small group of units against Kawachi or Owari, and usually when the big push for Kyoto (Yamashiro) is happening.
A way I've actually triggered it is to block their forward progress with your front line armies and destroy their ports nearby if they have any. Then vacate the port province you want them to attack, and leave several units of ninja there. They only send a few units, and there are bridges in these provinces, so the ninja go to town. Interestingly, the AI will often send the same number of units again and again for a while, and your ninja can honor up very quickly just by hanging out in that port. You can also honor up a 3-star general to a 4-star general quickly by putting him in command at a port that is being constantly attacked in this manner.
***
Is that Wolf Grizz? Long time no see m8, good to see you're still in the mix (we played some fun games back in the day when I went by Toga).
I'm in awe of your cleverness Masamune. Who'd have thought of a strategy like that? Brilliant.
LittleGrizzly
02-15-2008, 01:46
Is that Wolf Grizz? Long time no see m8, good to see you're still in the mix (we played some fun games back in the day when I went by Toga).
heya :)
still playing any TW ?
Nice tactic i was always trying to get nice high honour generals.
My basic game tactic was to get a few provinces early start going for money making ideas for a few years, ports mainly but mines if there or farm upgrades if worth it, then i would just go straight for teching up my units, mainly CA, SA, WM (or ND if shimazu) and then some HC, i try to make do with little units at the start to pay for teching up a few unit producing provinces quickly, it depends on the situation i create a few extra cheap units like YA or YS and SA if they're going to have to fight large battles, with good tactics and few YS and SA defending a hill you can take on repetitive attacks or a large attack.
It's rare, but they do attack port to port on Expert difficulty. Usually it's the Shimazu or Mori, sending a small group of units against Kawachi or Owari, and usually when the big push for Kyoto (Yamashiro) is happening.
I never dug deep into this, but I only recall 2 or 3 times they attacked me through port. I can't remember the situations/regions, sadly.
also another good point on the ports it makes transporting armys around alot easier!
ah yes, we couldn't live without ports. Tranporting troops from Mushu, Shinano etc to the west when you're Uesugi attacking Shimazu (for instance) would be a pain. I usually create loads of ports later in the game. I don't use much shinobi's/ninja's, but build border forts everywhere instead. It seems to work, but levelling up ninja's/shinobi's the same time would be more profitable actually.. it's more out of lazyness that I use the forts. :embarassed:
:bow:
LittleGrizzly
02-15-2008, 14:12
I don't use much shinobi's/ninja's, but build border forts everywhere instead. It seems to work, but levelling up ninja's/shinobi's the same time would be more profitable actually.. it's more out of lazyness that I use the forts.
I do the same, i think it saves you on ninja/shinobi upkeep
True, of course. But by the time I build lots of ports (and those forts), I usually have too much koku already. I build lots of improved farms/mines, and I train troops in only a few regions... I just can't spend it all, so I could afford them.
Same goes for more training centres+more troops. I could conquer japan sooner, more easy, if I'd spend all my money.. but I think I prefer my campaigns to last a little longer, etc. I don't mind. ~:)
:bow:
A general query guys. I thought if you accepted the Portuguese offer and became Christian you lost access to warrior monks. But in my current game I am building churches, temples and trading posts in the same provinces and can build WM and Arq as well.
Have I missed something here?
LittleGrizzly
02-20-2008, 01:00
you still have accsess to both units just uilding a WM makes you buddist again...
Does my entire clan revert to Buddhism or just the province that started to build the WM?
Sorry if the above question looks lame but i can't find anywhere in game to tell who is Christian or Buddhist. My main concern is that there would be no point in building a Cathedral to make some Koku, if building a WM has converted me back to Buddhism.
If you click the 'alliance' tab, you can see who's reverted to christianity by the large cross next to their banner.
Oda made the mistake of converting while their loyalty wasn't too high - didn't take me long to conquer some nice provinces while they had to fend off Warrior Monks!
LittleGrizzly
02-20-2008, 10:25
If you want to be christian you'll either have to stop building warrior monks, or i think if you build another portuguese trading post/church/cathedral you turn back christian (not sure) or you have to accept another trading offer
As a general piece of advice: Either be christian or be buddist. So, when you accept the portuegese offer, don't use Buddist temples and WM anymore. It'd almost certainly cause revolts.
btw, I can't advise to accept the portuegese offer altogether! It makes it only harder to keep your people happy, you'll need to invest lots in churches en priests (which can be assasinated, btw) and you only get arq's. Now I don't recall which version you are on, but iirc arq's can't even fire in rain? plus, SA are usually more useful in battles. (unless you need to shoot for a looong time, arq's have loads of ammo.. ~;))
If you play long enough to let the dutch come, accept. Their offer has no downsides. ~;)
Good luck!
:bow:
If you play long enough to let the dutch come, accept. Their offer has no downsides. ~;)
Yeah, I never accept the Portuguese' offer to become Catholic. While the religious income is nice and early Arqs can be useful, it's still almost never worthwhile for me. Aside from risking revolt and the fact that Arquebusiers aren't *that* nice, I also don't like losing the ability to train WM. :sweatdrop:
LittleGrizzly
02-21-2008, 00:25
well i think if you just accept the offer one turn, start building potuguese trading post (or a few) then after thier complete train a WM and its as if you never changed in the first place, Im pretty sure just training an arq doesn't change you back to christianity.
I would say its worth it to get guns, they have lots of ammo and can kill alot of men in the right situations, with 12 guns a few good infantry units and a good defensive position you can beat a full stack of top qaulity troops, on the cheap!
Thanks guys for the ideas. I can't resist building the churhes everywhere and getting the Cathedral. Heaps of income..lol.
LittleGrizzly
02-21-2008, 13:40
whats the income like ?
I don't think i ever got around to building a cathedral...
I don't recall, but I do recall you could build several cathedrals by making sure they would start building the same turn. (normally you were allowed to build only 1.. while they gave good income.)
btw, very intresting this:
well i think if you just accept the offer one turn, start building potuguese trading post (or a few) then after thier complete train a WM and its as if you never changed in the first place, Im pretty sure just training an arq doesn't change you back to christianity.
I'm definitely going to try! Thans! ~:)
:bow:
LittleGrizzly
02-21-2008, 15:23
One thing, im unsure if its training a WM that changes your religion back or actually building a temple...
Togakure
02-21-2008, 16:53
The risk you run when going Christian is a big drop in overall provincial happiness initially (people don't like big changes). This improves slowly over time. As usual, if you anticipate this you can take steps before going Christian to minimize the impact.
Any province with a Buddhist Temple is at risk of revolt when you go Christian. Therefore, station a larger garrison of Ashigaru (50% less upkeep compared to a samurai garrison, and just as effective when considering keeping the peace), and shinobi in any province that has one.
Any formerly rebel province that was affiliated with or controlled by Ikko Ikki (Kaga, Noto, Etchu, Echizen, Ise, Kii, Yamashiro, and perhaps some of the other initially rebel provinces in the Yamashiro area), will also have a higher rate of unhappiness at first if you choose to go Christian. Kaga, Yamashiro, Ise, and Kii are particular hotspots that will need attention before you go Christian if you want to avoid revolts.
I don't often build border watch towers or forts, but you can build these ahead of time too if you can afford it (shinobi cost less initially, have no upkeep cost that I'm aware of, are just as effective, are portable, and have other functions besides just keeping the peace).
You can still build monks if you controlled Temples before the change, and it doesn't affect your status as a Christian to my knowledge (once a Christian, always a Christian if you look at the alliances tab). Just monitor the happiness in all of your provinces carefully until your subjects get used to the big change. Build churches and use priests to accelerate this process, particularly in Buddhist hotspots. When provincial happiness levels out again you can reduce/reassign your garrisons and reassign the shinobi to other hotspots.
I haven't played in a while so I'm not sure if you can build new Buddhist Temples after going Christian. I don't think you can.
The bottom line is, you can be Christian and still produce and use monks if you manage things carefully.
***
I'm in awe of your cleverness Masamune. Who'd have thought of a strategy like that? Brilliant.
Thanks, you are too kind. Some would consider this strategy exploitive of the AI. I don't make a habit of using the ninja lure or general-star factory nowadays, but enjoyed the counterattack method and fringe benefits when I was first attacked in this manner (back in 2003, lol).
***
Just saw the question about Chathedral income, which is 100 Koku per year from every Church in Japan--even those not owned by you. Like Port income and unlike harvests, it does not fluctuate. Ports, Mines, and Churches are the secret to consistent, predictable wealth (which enables consistent financial planning).
***
Are you playing Warlords 1.02 or the original?? I have never in my uncountable number of SP games noticed my status changing back to Buddhist after accepting Christianity. I play 1.02 when I play SP (except when I play a Mongol campaign; I play 1.03 or 1.05 for that).
Thanks Masamune. Your post explains why I can still build WM and Arcs at the same time. If you can't revert to Buddhism then I won't lose income from Cathedral.
I'm playing with Gold Edition v1.00 and I'm pretty sure I get 200 koku per church. I'll check tonight.
Drisos...love your idea of building several Cathedrals at once. Have to work out now if having 2 Cathedrals would double your church income. I suppose it would.
The end movie about the bamboo curtain and the, ah, "expulsion" of foreign superstitions is still the same, I assume? In which case, I find it rather amusing that your daimyo is merely using Christianity for his own ends... :smash:
How could you think such a thing Spongie? My Daimyo is spreading the Good Word of the Lord to the wretched heathens. To save their poor souls.
But if he happens to make a few Koku out of it...then praise the Lord.
What's this? A daimyo using religion as a tool in his quest to become Shogun? Surely not!
[whistles innocently]
By the way guys. I have been experimenting and just for the record building 2 Cathedrals doesn't double the income from churches. But if you can stop the revolts you get 200 koku per church as well as 200 koku per trading post.
If you built telmples before accepting the Christian offer then you still get WM.
It doesn't get much better than that..lol.
Interesting, thip! So there's no reason to build more than one cathedral?
And is there a disadvantage to training Warrior Monks with your 'old' temples? Revolts or anything?
Togakure
02-22-2008, 16:48
Interesting, thip! So there's no reason to build more than one cathedral?
And is there a disadvantage to training Warrior Monks with your 'old' temples? Revolts or anything?
I haven't noticed any. I don't build a lot of monks usually though. No Dachi in SP serve the shock troop function just fine and are much cheaper. They have a better charge, which is what I use shock troops for, so I tend to use them over monks. If I'm playing Mori I use Sohei instead of No Dachi though.
In WE 1.02 the game only allows you to build one Cathedral. After you build one, the option to build disappears, even if the province meets the requirements for one. I haven't played 1.0 in ages and ages (but this discussion is making me curious to try it again).
By the way guys. I have been experimenting and just for the record building 2 Cathedrals doesn't double the income from churches.
ok, now you mention it, I do recall some discussion on the more-then-one cathedral thing from before. Well.. might not get the income, but it is actually possible to build several. Minor glitch ~;p
The only disadvantage I suppose is that you can't build new temples or upgrade your existing temples once you accept christianity.
Drisos, using your method to get 2 or more temples does have one advantage I realised the hard way. If you lose the province with the cathedral to ronin then they destroy the cathedral and you lose the income. If you had another cathedral you would still get the income.
This is probably more of an exploit I suppose. The game designers probably only wanted/intended the player to have the one cathedral.
Busy fighting off ronin at the moment...and Takeda was resurrected..lol. Not fair...
I was wondering if you guys play with the timer on? I have had the situation in large battles where I have routed the enemy and given chase.
The problem is that as his army exits, his reinforcements then arrive all over the field and usually behind my army which is now exhausted...and can't withdraw without a fight.
Consequently, the time usually expires before I can win. Any thoughts...?
I prefer to play with timer off (true for MTW as well). It means you have to win, rather than playing to the clock... :smash:
I prefer to play with timer off (true for MTW as well). It means you have to win, rather than playing to the clock... :smash:
Same here. :yes: I haven't played STW or MTW with the timer on in years.
I used to play with timer on, always. Nowadays in my first campaigns without timer.
Doesn't make much of a difference it seems. In big battles I don't need victory right away, I just slaughter their initial army and come back next turn to finish the rest.
A timer is useful when slight glitches occur. I've had a couple of times that routing units of the enemy couln't reach the border. They were stuck, and I couldn't kill them either. If you have no timer, you've got nothing but esc and you lose. But it happens only very rarely.
:book:
I never have the timer on either. I think it's a silly idea that if you hide long enough, you win the battle! Now if it was something like, if the timer expires before there's contact, your defensive force secretly retreats to the castle or another province without anybody winning or losing.
Togakure
02-27-2008, 16:46
I play with the timer off. This can create a challenge if the enemy has a cavalry archer unit and you don't have cavalry yet. It can be hard to chase them down and corner them or drive them off the battlefield.
Conversely, with the timer on, it's too easy if you have a cavalry archer unit to just run from the enemy and "win" the battle by avoiding the enemy--even a fairly large army if they don't have cavalry.
LittleGrizzly
02-27-2008, 16:49
In a battle where the enemy had loads of reinforcements i would usually try to chase the enemy most of the way to the back of the map then if im defender choose a hill close by or if i am attacker wait back for the enemy to bring thier army out as on then i would attack.
I would find after killing thier first enemy if they were coming from all over the back of the map and i was trying to fight lots of little skirmishes i would lose more troops
The timer i usually didn't use, though i think it made attacking a bit more intrestng, especially if they had a bi army there.
Conversely, with the timer on, it's too easy if you have a cavalry archer unit to just run from the enemy and "win" the battle by avoiding the enemy--even a fairly large army if they don't have cavalry.
That's why the Benny Hill code is in the game to prevent that tactic from working, although, it was modified to be not as effective when Mongol Invasion was released. The Benny Hill code is not in effect if the ranged unit still has ammo. It's a non issue for me since I simply don't use that exploit, and the AI doesn't do it. I've gone back to playing with the timer on because it makes attacking harder. The idea behind the timer was to simulate having to win the battle before sundown.
Togakure
02-29-2008, 15:36
I guess it wouldn't make much of a difference whether I used the timer now or not. I tend to be aggressive on the battlefield in SP, whether attacking or defending. I find that the AI does better when you attack. If I wait for it to come to me, attacks tend to be poorly coordinated and it's usually easy to repulse them unless I'm significantly outnumbered or have units that don't counter the enemy units well.
I wonder where the idea came from that battles shouldn't extend beyond nightfall. Surely armies didn't just pack up and wait til dawn, or go home if it got dark? Granted, it's just a movie, but in Kagemusha a battle after sundown is illustrated. Can any history buffs comment about this in general--battles extending beyond nightfall throughout history etc.?
Hello Masamune,
Nightfall and bad wheather conditions are used, at least for manoeuvres and raids.
Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen used both in their Kawanakajima campaigns.
Oda Nobunaga killed Imagawa Yoshimoto at Okehazama during a bad thunderstorm.
Night attacks are great, they don't even have to be large scale or directly effective: you'll deprive the defenders/other camp of the needed sleep. A worn out enemy is easier to defeat the next day (your own main army being rested).
I can't tell you stats, sorry.
Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen used both in their Kawanakajima campaigns.
Oda Nobunaga killed Imagawa Yoshimoto at Okehazama during a bad thunderstorm.
The 4th Battle of Kawanakajima did not take place at night.
The Battle of Okehazama took place after an afternoon thunderstorm.
Parallel Pain
02-29-2008, 21:46
Didn't the 4th Battle of Kawanakajima took place on hachimanpara(sp?) after the morning fog cleared?
Though I think TosaInu is talking about nighttime maneuvers. Shingen maneuvered during the night to position himself where he thought he could cut off and destroy a routed Kenshin.
Kenshin himself moved off the mountain under cover of darkness. Though I wonder why he moved off at all. He had height advantage and was equal in numbers against the detachment sent to assault him.
But if he's trying to kill Shingen, then maybe I guess...
Also during I think the 1st Battle, Shingen launched nightraids against Kenshin's rear when he moved too deep into Shinano, forcing him to withdraw.
But night battles do not happen that often. There are many examples of night raids, and a good night raid against an unprepared enemy could end the battle right then and there.
However to my knowledge, the only real night battles are where one side catch the other completely by surprise (and there aren't that many of these). There isn't really night battles where two armies form up to engage each other in the normal head-on and flanking maneuvers because it's too hard to co-ordinate movement at night.
Hello Parallel Pain,
The epitome was fought between 6am and 12 at Hachimanbara at the Kawanakajima plain near the Saigawa and Chikumagawa rivers indeed.
The Takeda plan was roughly that a small force would drive Uesugi off the Saijosan hill (this was a night manoeuvre known as operation Woodpecker, 12,000 men).
The Uesugi forces would panick and rout, cross the Chikumagawa river and run home. The Takeda main body was originally on the other riverbank (known to Kenshin), but Shingen expected a rout/retreat along the opposite bank. And so the main Takeda forces forded the river at night. This mainbody would hit the routing/retreating army very hard.
Kenshin had plans too. He also forded the river at night, unknown to Shingen. Uesugi left a small detachment of 1,000 to defend the ford.
He was going launch a surprise attack (Shingen would face South, he would attack from the West).
The Takeda lined up in the crane formation at 6 am, that's a formation used to surround. At 7 am the Uesugi charged out of the mist, not what Takeda expected and also too soon (as they didn't hear the Woodpecker noise yet).
The Woodpecker force heard the noise now and had to rush downhill, they wanted to ford the river but met resistance. 12 to 1 and they finally won.
The battle was a defeat and victory for both. 72% Uesugi and 62% (including able leaders) Takeda casualties.
Parallel Pain
03-01-2008, 04:27
Yeah I know that.
Not sure if the Takeda actually faced South though. The route Kenshin originally took to get on the mountain (and the route he took down it) would require Takeda to face West. Also the position of the woodpecker force would have effectively prevented any routers from going through the crossing that the woodpecker force ended up taking (a different crossing from the Uesugi force, one more to the East). If Shingen wanted to cut off the retreat at this crossing, he would face south. But the woodpecker force in effect made it so that he had no reason to cut off the retreat at this crossing as no troops would route through there. So I think Takeda faced West. Otherwise the Takeda would have routed almost as soon as it began, and yet they miraculously held on for 6h.
Also an interesting thing from the TV series Fuurinkazan is that Yamamoto Kansuke had the arbequeous fire almost as soon as he saw the Uesugi forces through the fog, and the sun of the arbequeous warned the Takeda troops on the mountian.
I still don't get why Kenshin moved off the mountain though. The wookpecker strategy relies on the fact the 12 000 men team take the Uesugi line by surprise due to the fog. But Kenshin obviously figured out what they were going to do, so Takeda already lost the element of surprised. In fact Kenshin himself had the element of surprise that he can use to hit either one of Takeda's divisions.
Also if I read the Japanese Wikipedia correctly, and I could be wrong as my Japanese isn't THAT great (but in any case I don't trust the English one), the deathtoll is 3000 for Uesugi and 4000 for Takeda. That's far from the obviously-over-exaggerated percentage given by the English one.
Of course given that Kenshin set out from Echigo with 15~18 000, 3000 is still very high casualties.
But its true that Kenshin suffered much casualties that when he went to Kantou again in November, he didn't have enough troops to fight as hard as he wanted. Begs the question where the 100 000 men allied army of the Kantou lords went this time.
Of course the Kouyou Gunkan is also known for a lot of inaccuracies. Maybe this is one of them.
EDIT: YAY! I just realized I am member! Good now edit mistake.
I wonder where the idea came from that battles shouldn't extend beyond nightfall.
That rational for having the timer came from Creative Assembly, and is one of the things they did to make battles seem larger scale. Other things are the limited camera height, shortened range for shooters, fatigue rate and limited range of morale effects.
Hello,
This is the scene, as far as I know:
http://www.totalwar.org/tosa/4thkawa/Image1.gif
Top of the picture is North. The blue line at the top is the Saigawa river. The diagonal one is the Chikumagawa. The two blac lines are fords, the northern one is the Hirose, the southern is the Amenoyima.
The dark green on the left is the Chausuyama (mountain/hill), the one at the bottom is the Saijosan height.
The brown square is Kaizu castle held by Takeda.
The plain doesn't only have those two large rivers, but also several brooks.
Uesugi (blue) arrived from the North at the 25th September 1561 from the North, crossed the Chikumagawa at the southern ford, occupied Saijosan and thus threatened Kaizu castle.
http://www.totalwar.org/tosa/4thkawa/Image2.gif
Shingen received the commanders stresscall and entered the field at the 3rd of October and occupies the other hill (black).
http://www.totalwar.org/tosa/4thkawa/Image3.gif
Shingen quickly left his hill at the 8th and reinforced Kaizu.Kenshin didn't move.
http://www.totalwar.org/tosa/4thkawa/Image4.gif
Kansuke, Takedas general devised a pincher move: the woodpecker force (brown) would scare Uesugi off the hill, Uesugi would run home (or at least need time to regroup on the westbank). Takedas crane would destroy Uesugi there (the Woodpecker being on their tail).
http://www.totalwar.org/tosa/4thkawa/Image6.gif
Uesugi received reports about Takeda movements and anticipated, at least partly, the plan. And deviced a counter. Shingen was quite a warlord and had able generals, it's tricky to give him the initiative. Uesugi had his hill, but an enemy force was manoeuvred in the night up there too. Where would it strike the next morning?
Uesugi also thinked further ahead:the Takeda forces were split and anticipated to launch a surprise pincher. The mainbody would be weakened and was only prepared to slay a confused and routing army. If Kenshin would make the right move, he could kill Shingen and defeat the whole of the Takeda forces.
So Kenshin sneaked down and crossed the same ford again, he left a 1,000 force to guard it (this would cut of routing Takeda after the main attack succeeded, but would also stop the Woodpecker). The attack was going to be the two colum 'winding wheel'.
http://www.totalwar.org/tosa/4thkawa/Image7.gif
The Takeda crane didn't hear 'the run for you life' calls and didn't get a routing enemy to slaughter, instead they faced a strong Uesugi attack. The Woodpecker, now on top of the hill, and no doubt being lost about the disbandoned enemy camp, heard battle cries and rushed down again. They planned to cross the river between the two fords (shortest route), but where stopped.
Uesugi almost succeeded, but his rear force of 1,000 wasn't enough to stop the 12,000 for long.
There are, as often, different accounts on the casualties. Uesugi arrived with, so it's said, 18,000 and Takeda took over 3,000 heads. That would be ~20%.
Different accounts and also different divisions: Uesugi for example had a baggage train + army of 2,000 that didn't take part in the actual fighting, but safeguarded the retreat. It was a bloody battle.
http://www.totalwar.org/tosa/4thkawa/Image9.gif
Parallel Pain
03-01-2008, 17:46
Hmmmm
I reread the Japanese Wikipedia.
Apparently the woodpecker force could have been defeated and the plan would still work. Probably that should Kenshin defeat the Takeda force, he would think he had won the battle and start moving back to Echigo, which is when he would be hit hard by a fresh Takeda force, at the same time the woodpecker force could rally and hit him from the rear.
So by moving off the mountain, Kenshin ensured that even if he is defeated, he has a clear route of retreat back to Echigo. Now it makes sense.
According to Japanese Wikipedia. Kenshin left 5000 of the 18000 men force he start out with at that monastary on the route to Echigo.
And I just realized. Shingen's position effectively placed his troops with their back to the river. No wonder they held so long.
And I thought the kurumagakari (wheel spokes) formation was more a circle. A multi-layer circle. Sort of like 4 units deep in the centre, 3 beside it, 2, then 1. With the attackers rotating like a wheel.
Hello Parallel Pain,
Yes, the 5,000. That's something that's not 100% clear to me. Kenshin left those 5,000 north of the Saigawa when he crossed it to enter the plain at the 25th. I don't know whether they stayed there the whole time or whether they joined the Saijosan. I guess they stayed, as safeguarding the escape route is vital.
The baggage train was guarded by a force too, which would also help Kenshin get away when things went wrong. -2,000. So, what's left was 11,000. And we can bet that the whole 1,000 of the rearguard got whiped out.
I'm not sure how the wheel spokes worked. But this attack started in two colums. One unit engages, gives way and is replaced by the other.
What you say must have crossed Kenshins mind too: at least I can get away now.
Kenshins plan would have worked had the rearguard managed to hold the WoodPecker. 12,000 vs 1,000 is a lot, even when having a river in between. I guess Kenshin either didn't know how large the pecker force was (can't even be sure he knew), or gambled that he would kill Shingen quickly enough.
ReluctantSamurai
03-03-2008, 04:07
"Yeah, I never accept the Portuguese' offer to become Catholic. While the religious income is nice and early Arqs can be useful, it's still almost never worthwhile for me. Aside from risking revolt and the fact that Arquebusiers aren't *that* nice, I also don't like losing the ability to train WM."
___________________________________________________________________
I keep a rather different pov on that.....I ALWAYS accept the first offer that comes along (except as Mori---for obvious reasons). Why? Plain & simple:
MUSKETS RULE!
The idea is not to get the arquebus, but the muskets! You can accept the Portuguese offer at any time but you will stay Buddhist until the moment you build your first trading post. This gives you time to prepare your province pacification program-----shinobi.
Since I make extensive use of them for both defensive and offensive schemes anyway, this is not a problem. Once I have at least two or more shinobi in each of my provinces (more in those previously mentioned Buddhist provinces, if I own any of them), then I go ahead and begin my trading posts. The extra 200 koku income from each comes in very handy during lean harvest years.
I may or may not build any arquebus units at all. It depends on what clan I am playing, the strategic situation, and what upgrades are available (a +3 to attack will do very nicely for holding Owari against all comers, for instance).
As Hojo, you can now go on to build a Gun Factory in Hitachi (after all the appropriate buildings are in place); as Takeda, Aki can do the same; as Shimazu, Nagato will serve the function. As Uesugi or Imagawa you will have to capture one of those provinces.
Now you can make muskets........and years before any of your rivals!:yes:
As to WM......I hardly ever use them anymore, so it's not a big deal to lose the capability to produce them (if later on I capture a Temple Complex in Kaga or Kii, I may keep them to produce a few). Like a previous poster said, No Dachi are cheaper to produce and, with proper armor upgrades make much better flankers than WM's.
Besides, try holding a bridge with WM units against 5-6,000 troops trying to "convince" you to vacate:inquisitive:
I've had many epic battles in my various campaigns (from easy to expert) and most of them involve the integral use of muskets with various other types of units (depending on province and clan) in stopping multiple stacks (sometimes as many as six at one time) from evicting me from a province.
For those who love defending Shinano (or hate it!) there's a beautiful and yet classic way to defend that doesn't involve swarms of archers standing on that big western hill (which gets to be boooooring to me after awhile).
The added income benefits and the ability to create musket units many years before your rivals get them are, IMHO, the two main reasons for accepting the Portuguese offer ASAP..........
For those having trouble deciding how to develop, I have these suggestions:
Always look at your bank account at the beginning of each turn and plan what you will be able to do for the year. Add up the total of your planned building upgrades and balance that with your unit needs. As you get better at conducting battles, you will be able to do more with less troops and need less replacements after a battle thus reducing your unit costs and making more koku available for buildings and other upgrades.
Pay special attention to provincial bonus....and take as much advantage of them as you can (that extra +1 honor can often make the difference between victory and defeat in high level battles on expert setting where the AI gets a +2 bonus for its troops).
Don't bother upgrading farming in areas with under 200 koku yield. It just takes waaaaay too long to see the return on your investment (sometimes over 20years). But instead, concentrate your upgrades on those provinces with much better yields. It also takes a very long time to see a return from lvl 2 copper mines.....I never bother with them unless I've developed the province for other reasons, and have extra koku to burn.
Build ports judiciously at the start.....have a planned line-of-advance and build a port at each corner of your line where you plan on stopping (even if only temporary). Getting troops back and forth from your front lines is crucial in holding lines against multiple-stack attacks......you need to be able to get your troops R&R, and ready your counterattack as quickly as possible. Later, you can add ports wherever you see fit, and as koku permits.
At any rate, hope at least some part of this helps........
I may or may not build any arquebus units at all. It depends on what clan I am playing, the strategic situation, and what upgrades are available (a +3 to attack will do very nicely for holding Owari against all comers, for instance).
I thought the weapon bonus didn't apply to ranged weapons, just to the melee weapons of the ranged troops?
Anyway, Tosa, thanks for that account ~:)
ReluctantSamurai
03-04-2008, 00:41
"I thought the weapon bonus didn't apply to ranged weapons, just to the melee weapons of the ranged troops?"
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I would venture by my experience with combat results that weapon bonus does apply to ranged weapons. Someone with better knowledge than me concerning STW e-files might answer this more definitively:book:
I have STW/WE and the card icon that shows up at the bottom for a ranged unit during battle shows the daggers (+1, +2, +3, as well as any armor upgrades). Now whether this means it's applied during a battle.....I don't know....but again, I notice significant differences in kill numbers the higher the weapon bonus..........
Correct. All weapon/honour bonuses affect melee combat only.
ReluctantSamurai
03-04-2008, 02:10
"Correct. All weapon/honour bonuses affect melee combat only."
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I'm not asking this to be insulting in any way but........you're absolutely sure about that?
I could swear that during body counts (and in looking at the battle results dump which can be created for each battle that the more weapon upgrades I added to my archers and/or muskets, the higher the kill ratio).
Again, I have little knowledge of the workings of the STW e-file, so I may just be full of it.........................
I would venture by my experience with combat results that weapon bonus does apply to ranged weapons.
I've been told that it doesn't. I can't say I ever looked into it deep enough to be sure though. But I think there's no doubt anyway. Other's have done that testing, etc. ~;)
btw, Tosa and Parallel Pain, how do you know all this? I'm puzzled. :dizzy2: Very nice to read about a historical battle, and the trics/tactics of those 2 brilliant generals. Thanks for the story's! :book:
Ah, ReluctantSamurai. I never actually built a weapon factory in so many games.. Guess that's because I only very rarely became christian. Reading your experiences on this, makes me want to try the Portugese offer again. I always found the benefit of having arq's inferior to the loyalty problems. Yet you are of course right, could just as well train muskets with their offer. I'm definitely going to try in my next Sengoku Jidai campaign! :book: :yes:
Togakure
03-05-2008, 01:20
Wow, I haven't had time to stop by and I'm glad--some great reading here. Thanks to all.
***
Yeah, it's been exhaustively documented that wep bonuses affect only melee, not ranged effectiveness. Honor, on the other hand, has an affect, though the magnitude has been debated some. I think the standing position is that honor upgrades offer a slight improvement to ranged performance, but only for the first few levels before the benefit seems neglible when considering the cost of the upgrade (this has been discussed primarily in terms of guns over the last few years).
ReluctantSamurai
03-05-2008, 03:49
"I always found the benefit of having arq's inferior to the loyalty problems."
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You won't have any problems if you prepare ahead of time with shinobi. I go Christian nearly all the time now, and once I learned to post enough shinobi up, I've never had a province go rebel. After a year or two, things calm down especially after you get a few churches built, and by the time you're ready for the cathedral, everyone is happy as pigs in.......well you know:laugh4:
And as I said, I may build several arquebus for river provinces, but I don't start building guns units wholesale until I can produce the musket.
Hello Drisos,
There's of course Wikipedia, always a nice first step:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Kawanakajima
From Samurai-archives:
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Fourth_Battle_of_Kawanakajima
http://www.answers.com/topic/battles-of-kawanakajima
An Osprey book:
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S5627
MUSKETS RULE!
Yes, well I never use those guns in my STW campaigns because they are a mistake that unbalances the game. I put the arq's and muskets back to the original STW stats before MI was released because those are the gun stats that the official designer of the battles chose.
Togakure
03-05-2008, 21:31
In regard to arqs vs. muskets in SP, etc., here's my take:
Both cause a serious morale drop for the unit being fired upon. This is the real weapon. Kills ... cool, but I can kill more by routing them and then sending my reserve cav to run them down when they flee.
Hence, if I decide to use guns, I'll usually use both in a SP game--arqs as soon as I can, muskets when they become available. I don't take a lot though, especially arqs. They don't fire in rain, which limits their usefulness under such conditions. They can still be used to bolster the morale of engaged units by positioning them appropriately, to distract and divert, and to soak up arrow fire, etc..
I prefer to build my gunner training centers in either Owari or Tosa for the ashigaru honor bonus. I find +1 Attack, +1 Defense, and +2 Morale a better overall bonus than +1 Defense, +1 Armor (armor doesn't affect bullet penetration much anyway ...). As neither of these provinces have iron and sand deposits, I usually go Christian in a game where I intend to harness the gaijin weapons. "Timing is everything," and I usually don't wait for the Dutch. By the time they arrive, Japan should be pretty much dominated, if not completely.
That being said, I often take a hardcore traditional stance and do not use guns at all. Unfortunately, the AI doesn't make very good use of them, so it doesn't give the enemy much of an advantage, if any--assuming they even get a chance to build them.
ReluctantSamurai
03-05-2008, 21:46
"Yes, well I never use those guns in my STW campaigns because they are a mistake that unbalances the game."
"That being said, I often take a hardcore traditional stance and do not use guns at all."
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I've modified the stat files for both to reflect the designers original intent. Also, I don't see why not using guns is considered "a hardcore traditional stance." After all, if one of the great generals of the time saw fit to employ them in numbers and develop tactics for them, who would know better than Oda Nobunaga?:smash:
All joking aside, I don't "abuse" the use of guns. And by that I mean that I realize the AI doesn't use them very well, so I don't take unfair advantage by loading up (no pun intended:laugh4: ) on muskets. I typically employ 2-3 in an army.....more for bridge provinces or "ironing-board" topography provinces.
I rarely ever have more than 4 in an army, and even then it would be only temporary. I prefer a balanced approach......the remaining units typically would be 2 CA, 2 YC, 2-4 SA, and the balance infantry units (YS & ND mostly). This mix gets varied depending on terrain, and what the enemy is likely to bring to the battlefield.
Parallel Pain
03-06-2008, 20:14
Didn't Yuuki say that the guns are unbalanced in STW:MI?
That being said, I often take a hardcore traditional stance and do not use guns at all. Unfortunately, the AI doesn't make very good use of them, so it doesn't give the enemy much of an advantage, if any--assuming they even get a chance to build them.
I can't claim I don't use guns at all, but I do use them only rarely. (In addition, I never accept the Portuguese offer to trade, which means I don't get arqs/mukets until after the Dutch show up.) I tend to be more of a traditionalist in this regard -- I much prefer arrows to gunpowder & musket balls. ~;)
Didn't Yuuki say that the guns are unbalanced in STW:MI?
Guns are indeed overpowered in Mongol Invasion, but I don't remember by how much. (Puzz would know.)
Togakure
03-07-2008, 18:10
Yes, guns are strong in 1.02--enough so that they command a lot more respect--no more charging full or near-full teppo units directly with cavalry. If they have a clear line of fire, approaching directly with infantry is also sure death and rout. Archers can seriously hurt teppos with their higher accuracy and better rate of fire--particularly with altitude advantage, but they will lose a shoot out in the long run because they have considerably less ammo (unless of course, you time your oblique cavalry attack against the attritioned teppo units just right ... and pull them out before the counter cav or spears get to you).
1.02 teppos can make taking a defensive stance more difficult as well; if you don't have a decent position and parity countering enemy guns, you have to move and attack/counterattack cleverly to avoid getting slowly shot to pieces.
One of the most annoying things for some folks is that you pretty much have to take teppo if your enemies have them (especially in MP; I very rarely saw less than three teppo units in a 1.02 army that was effective; four was the typical number taken, the max allowed with our rule set). The exception would be a "rush" army, which only a few players/teams knew how to use well consistently.
I play 1.02 MI in SP frequently and don't find the overpowered guns to be a big issue. I just don't take many of them, if any, and if the enemy has them, I respect their power and deal with them accordingly.
In 1.02, talented MP players have proven that an army of high-level "super" ashigaru (Honor 8-9 w/lots of wep and armor upgrades) and teppo can beat just about any army. In this sense, it is definitely "unbalanced." Hence, most serious players in MP feel that 1.02 requires rules to (somewhat) balance the play. Ours was "4 max no ashi," which meant you could take a max of four of any one type of unit, and ashigaru spearmen were prohibited.
In SP, we can adjust our playing style to "balance" out game play and enjoy the many good points of 1.02 (good in my mind, at least).
ReluctantSamurai
03-08-2008, 23:53
In SP, we can adjust our playing style to "balance" out game play
With the WE that is what I do (as well as using modified stats), and "traditional" or "untraditional" I see no shame is using guns. They do not win the campaign for me........battles, yes......but there are many many battles to be fought, many of them 'sans' the muskets. And mistakes or laxity on the strat map, while usually not lethal, can cause one large headaches, guns or no.
Tony Furze
03-09-2008, 16:31
I have a greedy Daimyo who just can t wait to get his hands on those guns. I use them, overpowered or not, rejoicing in the new toys.
Of course it usually ends up backfiring... (pun intended).
I follow Martok, unless I play as Oda and want something different. But, usually it's the traditional way for me too.
Parallel Pain
03-11-2008, 01:34
Say Tosa
You know that battle where Nobunaga crushed Takeda Katsuyori, Nagashino I think it was
Why did the Takeda Cavalry charge at all?
I mean I get the rain thing, but it should be obvious their cavalry can't get pass the stockade rain or shine and will be just left out in the open for archers and arquebouses, while a few spearmen block the stockade entrances.
I mean why oh why did they charge the stockade at all? After all a stockade is a set defence, Takeda could just move to another battlefield and Nobunaga's stockade would be useless.
At least in Kagemusha, Katsuyori seemed desperate to win without Shingen backing him up, so I'd say he got arrogant and rash.
But that's just the movie, of course ~;)
The stockade was probably a much smaller thing than what's depicted in the very nice movie. There's a picture in STW (campmap\Info-Pics\trp0009.tga), that's about the pallisade used.
That looked brittle and insignificant, certainly not something that would stop a horse.
Parallel Pain
03-13-2008, 08:12
From Japanese wiki:
この柵についても、通説では馬防柵などと呼ばれ、騎馬の侵入を防ぐ為の（牧場の囲い柵を連想するような）ものと思われがちだが、柵の跡と一緒に堀や盛り土の土手の跡も見つかっている。つまりこの柵は単体で使用した ものではなく、ここに簡単な城もしくは砦か大規模な陣城を築いて戦った跡だと考えられる。
In other words. The stockade wasn't such light fortifications as a thin bamboo fence. It was almost a fort.
Though I admit I still have to look through carefully at the entire article.
That's possible Parallel Pain. There are different accounts.
There's a (suggested) reconstruction of the battlefield: page 72 http://books.google.nl/books?id=xFaCvUTWEI0C&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=rengogawa&source=web&ots=7DeEWxQjWr&sig=7_kC0jCd_FbpyrPWBGBQKIfqdFI&hl=nl#PPA72,M1
I do not deny the fence was effective, but it (seemed to) looked brittle. Quite different from the one in the movie.
Muskets have a limited lethal effectivity versus armoured samurai. It can still kill at longer ranges of course, but armour would be able to stop many at say 50-100 meters (ignoring the accuracy bit). Of course: what about the horse?
Cavalry in charge would only need a few seconds to cross the killing zone. Just in front of the barricade was a small river and that slowed the charge quite a bit.
The movie makes it look like only the guns acted. There was hand to hand combat.
Katsuyori almost looks like a lunatic in the movie. He wanted to 'better' Shingen and was a bit bold. But he also underestimated and failed to see the situation. It's suggested that the scout reports were not complete and the situation doesn't look that bad from a first glance. It's the famous Takeda cavalry versus some low class Oda infantry.
The Oda/Tokugawa forces had a stack of several terrain advantages. Page 70 and 71 give an impression of this. Woods, high ground, river, man made barricades.
Parallel Pain
03-13-2008, 19:07
Even the simple fortifications as seen in that book is enough to stop cavalry, what with the banks and everything.
And I never seen the movie. I think Katsuyori must have had a reason to fight, I just don't know what it is.
Yes, all together it was enough. The point is, that it probably doesn't look so tough. It's a stack of little things: a cute river, a small slope, some fences, a couple of so called bushis :shrugs: Mighty Takeda cavalry. Charge!
The bank was important:
Cavalry in charge would only need a few seconds to cross the killing zone. Just in front of the barricade was a small river and that slowed the charge quite a bit.
The reason to attack there and then? He was there on a campaign and sieged Nagashino castle. An Oda/Tokugawa relief force popped up and Katsuyori thought he could beat them.
He was probably a bit frustrated in failing to take the castle, Shingen already defeated both armies before, that's the emotional part of him attacking.
The second is that it didn't look so bad in his mind, underestimated but insufficient scouting is reported too.
His veteran generals did not agree, but had to follow.
To 'excuse' Katsuyori: Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Hideyoshi are three formidable generals and knew how to play tricks.
Parallel Pain
03-13-2008, 21:39
Ok I read J-wiki
I will try to throw aside all the legends and exaggerations and work on history
Forces:
1) At Shitaraga Plain, Oda-Tokugawa numbered about 18 000, Takeda 7000
2) Oda-Tokugawa had at least 1000 arquebous at Shitaraga Plain
3) Though called a plain, Shitaraga Plain is far from wide open space, but filled with low hills and a river too. Nobunaga built ramparts and stockade to further reinforce his position.
Battle:
1) Under Sakai Tadatsugu, the siege of Nagashino Castle was broken during the night of June 28th (western calender, May 20th by traditional Asian calender) by a successful night assault on the five Takeda Forts built to surround Nagashino.
2) June 29th Katsuyori moved to Shitagara Plain for the battle.
3) Katsuyori tried to overcome the Oda-Tokugawa with a double envelopment. However, the Takeda centre under Takeda Nobutoyo withdrew prematurely (and without orders), resulting in the flanks having to take more of the fighting than they should. In addition, Nobunaga had concentrated much firepower on his flanks.
4) After hours of heavy fighting, Nobunaga ordered his men (reserves probably) forward. The Takeda, having taken heavy punishment, routed and were cut down.
5) Casualties was 1000~2000 Takeda and 600 Oda-Tokugawa (counting the battle at Shitaraga Plain only). The problem for Katsuyori was that amongst the casualties were too many of Takeda's veteran generals and lords.
Reason's for Takeda's defeat:
1) Numbers (try defeating an army over twice your size)
2) The grounds and defences limited Takeda's attack and suited Oda-Tokugawa's defensive stance
3) Guns
4) Disagreements amongst the Takeda
Why Katsuyori had to fight at Nagashino:
Under Shingen, the plan was to crush the Oda clan by the surrounding daimyo such as Azai, Asakura. But by Nagashino, Azai and Asakura had already been crushed. The Oda clan was growing stronger by the day. If Katsuyori does not fight, the next time the two sides meet Katsuyori could be facing even worse odds. If he does not defeat the Oda now, he wouldn't ever be able to.
(Katsuyori might have decided against a defensive position as he would have faced the force Sakai Tadatsugu plus the defenders of Nagashino on his flank or rear, while Oda-Tokugawa attacked him from the front. He can't withdraw, as that would insure his doom in the long run. With the seige broken and the castle reinforced, Katsuyori can not assault the castle and take it before Oda-Tokugawa fell on his rear. Therefore his only hope of victory is to attack and defeat the Oda-Tokugawa force. He is forced to fight even when all the odds are stacked against him. Even if Katsuyori does win, what's left of his force is not enough to continue the campaign and maybe not even to take Nagashio. Campaign-wise Takeda had already lost. Their only hope of real victory is if they can take the head of Nobunaga)
On the other hand Nobunaga did not even need to fight at Nagashino. With the arrival of his forces, his agreement with Ieyasu has been reached and Katsuyori can't continue the seige. If Katsuyori choose to withdraw, the campaign is won. If Katsuyori choose to fight, as long as Oda-Tokugawa force does not loose the campaign is won. Therefore the huge number and preparations are not to win, but to not loose. By Sakai Tadatsugu's night attack, Takeda's route of retreat was threatened, Nagashino saved, Oda-Tokugawa's morale raised, Oda's power and friendship to Tokugawa demonstrated, and Katsuyori is forced on a time-limit to fight or not.
In short, by Oda's arrival, Nobunaga (as said before) had already won.
Things about the battle:
1) Takeda's legendary cavalry likely did not exist, as from contemporary sources nothing of the such was mentioned. Even if it did, it was likely only 10% of the Takeda's force.
2) The battle went from morning to early afternoon. Therefore for hours the Takeda force had to take the punishing fire from Nobunaga's arquebous.
3) The arquebous did not do the damage as seen in the movie. They but worn down the Takeda. The rampart and other ashigaru forces stopped the Takeda attack. The real blow came at about 1 or 2 PM when Nobunaga ordered his flanks forward (the center stayed put behind the stockade). The Takeda force was tired out after hours of fighting, their ranks disorganized, and had no reserves and were routed. Most of the casualties were inflicted here (as always).
In conclusion, Katsuyori ws neither stupid nor rash. He just gambled on his only chance at victory and lost.
Ok I read J-wiki
Battle:
1) Under Sakai Tadatsugu, the siege of Nagashino Castle was broken during the night of June 28th (western calender, May 20th by traditional Asian calender) by a successful night assault on the five Takeda Forts built to surround Nagashino.
How I understood it: Sakai Tadatsugu broke the Takeda force that continued the siege, while the Shidarahara battle took place. The Takeda advance started at 6.00 AM, the raid followed two hours later. The raid force left at midnight in a thunderstorm.
2) June 29th Katsuyori moved to Shitagara Plain for the battle.
Shidarahara started with manouevres on the 27th and was fought the 28th (Osprey Campaign Nagashino 1575).
Takeda left 3,000 men to continue the siege and the raid was also 3,000 strong.
This is roughly the field:
http://www.totalwar.org//tosa/nagashino/nagashino.jpg
This map is ~5*5 km iiuc.
The yellow are Oda/Tokugawa forces. The thin blue line in front of them is the Rengogawa river, there's also a branch behind them. There's also a small river in the centre of the map.
The large blue lines are the Toyokawa, Onogawa and Takigawa river. These are not small ones like the Rengogawa.
The brown square denotes the Nagashino castle.
The Nagashino campaign from May 30th up till June 28th started further North, Takeda went South and was now halfway back. There was hope to easily grab some key castles, but it all failed. Nagashino was a consolation price. That failed too.
I think it is unlikely that a 3,000 man raid could have defeated a sieging force of 15,000 behind that big river. If that would have happened, it's Tokugawa territory and maybe they could have launched something, I think it's more likely that Takeda would retreat/rout to the east and back home and not cross the river and attack.
There wasn't a tactical need to attack: there was a nice river between them and the Takeda could, they could defend or afaik, just pull back.
There was no strategic need to attack either, other than in Katsuyoris mind. He hadn't achieved anything yet in the campaign, his generals appreciated Katsuyori the warrior and he was the clanleader, but he was not Shingen. The generals disagreed about the whole campaign from the start: they didn't want an offensive one. He wanted to avoid a 'see I told ya'.
Takeda didn't have to defeat Oda, there was no pressing need. Oda had trouble at several fronts: The Mori in the West and the Ikko were a headache.
Takeda could have continued these larger scale raids and Oda would have trouble to manoeuvre from West to East and back again. There was enough room for a better chance tomorrow. In retrospect perhaps.
Takeda left with 15,000 men and only 5,000 returned. Katsuyori was only totally destroyed seven years later. Oda already dealt with the Ikko by then.
Reasons for Oda to leave him: other urging matters in the West, crippled Takeda buffer between him and Hojo.
We have three reports now:
The movie Kagemusha, I think we agree to reject that.
The Japanese wiki.
Osprey.
Which one is correct? I think we need more information, especially maps and such. I assume for example that Takeda could retreat while on the eastbank of the big rivers, it does look possible to retreat home, but is it? If not he could have opted to go to the westbank and not charge but pull back.
Parallel Pain
03-16-2008, 01:35
It's not whether or not Oda have other fronts to fight, it's how strong Oda is, and Oda is getting stronger and stronger.
Before a Clan takes the entire of Honshu it will always have other fronts to fight. The question is its strength. As Yamamoto Kansuke said to Shingen in Fuurinkazan "We will take Shinano, then move into Echigo. After that we will hit Suruga. Once we have done all that our country will be so strong that no one can stop us."
Even when Nobunaga was assasinated, the Oda clan was still fighting multiple fronts. But they had more than enough strength to do so.
That's what needs to be prevented. Remember even by traditional numbers the Oda-Tokugawa force was 38000 total to Takeda's 15000 (and by one thought up by some Japanese military historian in the Meji era, 21000 Oda-Tokugawa and 7000, but who cares, you get the point). Even the other daimyos were feeling the pressure of the Oda Clan's strength, and the desperately tried to gang up on the Oda (again), with Uesugi Kenshin also participating. It's funny the first one broke up when Shingen died and the second one broke up when Kenshin died. But the contrast is that in the first one Nobunaga had quite a bit of trouble dealing with, this second one he dealt with with almost no problem. That's how strong the Oda Clan has become.
It looks like Osprey is using traditional Japanese sources. One could easily question whether or not those numbers are correct.
But putting that aside, we have to remember a large percentage of the army of the time, actually possibly the majority, were ashigaru. A simple surprise strike could sweep them away. Takeda Nobutora had done it to the Imagawa, just like Oda Nobunaga did (also to the Imagawa heh). Hojo Ujiyasu was able to hold Odawara Castle against a reputed (and obviously exaggerated but if you trust traditional sources) 100 000 allied army of the various Kantou lords. Ujiyasu also hit a Kantou army 6~7 times his size at Kawagoe Castle in a night assault and won a decisive victory. So there's no question that it can be done.
Sakai Tadatsugu's raid (according to J-wiki) was also a night raid against an unprepared enemy.
And you have to remember with Oda-Tokugawa army arriving, Katsuyori is forced to move likely most of his troops away from the castle to reform into a battle formation to prevent being caught with his back to the enemy. Sakai Tadatsugu only hit those that were left to keep up the siege. If fact Sakai Tadatsugu chased the routing Takeda troops too far he ran into the main Takeda force and lost one of his generals.
If Sakai Tadatsugu's raid happened like that, then Katsuyori has every reason to attack. By retreating he would be chased and be faced with the combine force of Oda-Tokugawa AND the sideforce under Tadatsugu+Nagashino's garrison. That'll make him be outnumbered more than 3 times instead of only about 2.5 at Shitagara plain. If he takes the defence he'll be attacked from two sides.
BTW, do you mean Osprey publishing's book by Stephen Turnbull? Because he's not exactly known to question the reliability of sources or look at works by modern historians that take into account more stuff and try not to exaggerate and questions lots of things (like how good exactly is Takeda's cavalry). But then I guess the same can be said about Wikipedia.
Hello Parallel Pain,
Yes, it's that Osprey, the link in post 117 http://books.google.nl/books?id=xFaCvUTWEI0C&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=rengogawa&source=web&ots=7DeEWxQjWr&sig=7_kC0jCd_FbpyrPWBGBQKIfqdFI&hl=nl#PPA72,M1
It's showing a few pages only to tease.
It's not that easy to obtain books, a couple of years ago, even Osprey or plain Turnbull books were harder to get (didn't see them in the bookstores).
It's always difficult to learn what has happened, no matter what the source is. This took place over 400 years ago in a totally different culture. On top of that, already colored and incomplete accounts had to 'survive' extra colouring during the Tokugawa era.
=========================================================
There's a book by Dr. Mitsuo Kure. He graduated in medical school but started a research into Japanese history. He is not a history scholar, but being schooled into any art doesn't mean you know the truth about the subject.
His book discusses the battle too.
Katsuyori answered the call of the puppet Ashikaga Yoshiaki. Oda Nobunaga himself 'installed' him as shogun. The puppet was working behind his back to get Oda down.
This book doesn't mention the whole campaign, the reader gets the impression that Katsuyori marches straight up to Nagashino castle in June. Osprey mentions that Nagashino was only the consolation price after a failed tough raid.
The book mentions a few things and some of them do sound logical if you look at what seems to be happening. His main source seems to be a document written by Ota Guichi, a Nobunaga retainer (was he there?).
It mentions 30,000 for the allies and 15,000 for Takeda. The actual number doesn't matter all that much, just that it again states Oda to have a numerical advantage (for starters).
At that time, Oda thought that Takeda was stronger, so they decided to fight defensively. Furthermore, the forces were strictly forbidden to leave the palisade.
My comment: why would Oda, having a 2 to 1 advantage and also a allied castle in Katsuyoris back, not simply march up. I think there's even more reason to that than just thinking he was weaker despite the numbers.
Excavation revealed the defense to be fairly massive: three lines of ditches, earthen walls and timber palisades. It also mentions though, that the used palisades would not suffice to stop a cavalry charge. My comment: it's not the insignificant fence around our garden, but it's not a solid wall either.
The attempt to answer why Katsuyori attacked:
-Because the allied army threatened his rear and forced him to attack.
My comment: The yellow arrow shows how Sakai Tadagatsu flanked. The black arrow shows how Takeda finally routed.
http://www.totalwar.org//tosa/nagashino/nagashino2.jpg
Takeda was in enemy territory and trouble could come from both east and west, realistically only from west though. The major problem was in the west though, camping on the east bank, where they were, would have given a fair defensive position and also an escape to home.
But even after crossing the river, they were not trapped and the retreat back home was always open. There was no tactical urge to attack. The Takeda generals advised a retreat: how could they advise that if there was no option to do so?
The timing of the manoeuvres is a point of discussion then, Osprey even suggests Katsuyori even wasn't aware while he was engaged, but he moved out of a good position himself and ignored the retreat (he could rout home after hours of fighting and losing his army, he could retreat too).
-Katsuyori was a young man, overconfident in his splendid army.
His scouts were killed and thus he didn't get proper report of what defenses were there. Rain and mist My comment (and no doubt also surrounding woods) obscured his own view.
=======================================
What happened according to this book?
The first Takeda wave consisted of sappers to clear the path
My comment: so they did see something and decided to quickly clear that first.
This wave failed, but the second reached the palisade and teared it down. Only to face a second line.
The attacks on this second line failed and eventually Katsuyori withdrew.
The book mentions another thing in a caption, the first makes sense, the second I question:
Arquebusses are black powder weapons, and the smoke of the first volley would have hindered the accuracy of the second, while the Takeda could have used that window to advance. The second is that the allies (Oda and Tokugawa) would not have won if the Takeda launched one big push.
==============End of book=====================
"We will take Shinano, then move into Echigo. After that we will hit Suruga. Once we have done all that our country will be so strong that no one can stop us."
What goes up, must come down. This nobody is going to stop us is just boasting. The problem with getting big is that you get more enemies and/or that you'll make a mistake somewhere.
Katsuyoris strategic mindset seems to have been: 'I must destroy Oda now'. Yes, Oda was growing. That also means he's accumulating enemies (he did) and maybe he isn't tough anymore next year or still tough but occupied in a conflict in the west. A 'we must defeat him' by hit and run raids from all sides, would have sorted more effect in the long run than knocking oneself out one by one.
The book suggests that Oda thought himself to be weaker. That could be their thought (either in quality and/or quantity). But the Takeda army was in 'their' territory for about a month, so they should know better. Maybe he feared the quality? The fence was there to give the ashigaru the idea of safety. The several layers did make it really tough too. He also mixed tougher bushi to prevent a rout.
But was it in Oda's interest to get rid of Takeda? Did he really want to destroy them completely right now?
The alliance knew the war was long and far from over. Nobunaga wasn't famous for kindness and while the other two weren't either, they seemed more cunning.
What could the alliance have won by destroying Takeda? Heavy losses on their own side, less men to fight other ongoing conflicts and a powervacuum in the east. What is Hojo going to do, or Uesugi? Many warlords have the (sleeping) ambition to rule the nation and/or dislike Oda.
I think plan A would be that Takeda just pulls back.
Plan B would be even nicer: Katsuyori is drawn into an attack, the alliance loses little, Takeda a lot and is forced to withdraw. No more Takeda raids and he's still a buffer to stop Hojo and Uesugi so the alliance can focus west.
I think the alliance knew about the Takeda disagreement and about Katsuyoris sentiments.
And so happened: they kept the escape door open, denied Katsuyori proper information, feigned weakness, perhaps even allowed the first fence to be broken. Takeda was only erased years later after the Ikko were destroyed in the west.
Parallel Pain
03-16-2008, 20:05
But the power of Ikko was broken the year before Nagashino
Hello Parallel Pain,
Nagashima yes, but the monks remained a pain up till 1580.
Parallel Pain
03-20-2008, 20:05
Ok so trying to get a topic back on track that I myself have derailed.
How do you effectively assault a castle/bridge? Especially a bridge.
Togakure
03-20-2008, 20:43
Use one unit of spearmen at a time to cross the bridge, draw fire, and draw the enemy melee units into your ranged fire (take a good number of archers and line them up on the bank on both sides of the bridge if possible, units in rows of two). That unit will take a lot of casualties as it races back to your side just ahead of the enemy melee units, but your ranged units will be decimating the enemy melee units. Do this again with a fresh unit, rinse repeat, until the enemy's fighters are decimated and their ranged units are out of ammo. Then cross the bridge and kick butt.
A more fun, less exploitive way to do it is to put cav in columns 2-3 wide, and send them across fast, one at a time. Just as they get to the other side turn hard right or left and race far to the left/right side of the map on the enemy side of the bridge. As the enemy divides to go after them, do it again with another cav unit, to the other side. Use these units to draw attention away from the bridge, staying just ahead of pursuit. When the time is right, cross the bridge with your remaining units and attack en masse. Usually the enemy is spread out all over the place at this point and it's easy to harrass and route them. This technique is not a good one to use if they have a ton of archers (or counter cavalry). A combination of these two approaches often works well. With the second approach, the basic strategy is divide, distract and conquer. It must be well-timed.
The bridge assault challenge has been discussed a lot before so if you dig, you should be able to find stuff about it. Also, check the War College thread at the .com. Wish I had more time ... this is a bit vague. Maybe others who understand what I'm describing will elaborate further.
Use one unit of spearmen at a time to cross the bridge, draw fire, and draw the enemy melee units into your ranged fire
I actually find Yari Cavalry to be fairly useful in this situation (I forgot about that when discussing them in the other thread). They have the necessary speed to get away once they've drawn the enemy across the bridge, meaning I can use them repeatedly in the feinting attacks you just described.
For that matter, Cavalry Archers work in this role as well. While they're not quite as fast as YC, they're a little less expensive -- which can be important, as the "bait" unit may still suffer losses (due to enemy missile fire, if nothing else).
Hello,
I use this bait trick as well.
When the enemy doesn't have much missiles, but a lot of say warriormonks instead, you can also use a ysam on hold. The monks will be inside your misilerange longer while beating the ysam. The ysam will be lost, but you can erase high value monks.
A naginata infantry can be used at times too, and it's high armour protects it a bit against enemy missiles. Note though that these units are slower than ashigaru and may be chased down to zero. Make sure you have a good counter on your bank in case the monks decide to come accross.
It's not possible to command your archers onto the bridge to get in range, or park your naginata there to block and suck monks in, but you can order them to cross it and cancel the move order when they are halfway, same effect.
Togakure
03-21-2008, 13:48
That is an interesting technique Tosa--cancelling movement orders when on the bridge to choke it up. I'll have to try that.
Ysams can be used repeatedly (well, twice at least), provided they are rotated. Send one across, bring them back, let them rest while ordering another unit across, etc..
The main reason I use ysams is lower cost and decent armor. Also, I don't engage the enemy melee units that counterattack on the enemy side of the bridge--I turn around and run back across the bridge, leading them into closer range of my archers. I've found that speed is not essential as long as the turn-around is timed well. I have my archers hold fire until they are fairly close, then turn on Fire-At-Will, maximizing their ammo and kills (and turn Fire-at-Will off when they move back to extreme range). I keep a fresh ysam unit waiting on my side of the bridge to repulse the counterattackers and cover the retreating unit if the pursuers come onto the bridge (they usually don't, retreating once my unit is halfway back across the bridge). Melee engagement comes when my archers are out of arrows, enemy melee units are severely attritioned and fatigued, and I make the big push across the bridge. My ysams are significantly attritioned, but somewhat fresh because I rotate them in the feints across the bridge.
Cav are bigger targets, and I've found that casualties/cost are higher than I'd prefer. I don't turtle a lot, so cost and availability of units is something I usually have to manage carefully. Much later in the game if I've teched up, I've used Heavy Cav for this--decent speed and very good armor and defense. Early on, the Daimyo unit is great for crossing the bridge right off and getting the enemy to chase and break focus and formations. He can gain a lot of personal honor in a single battle doing this. It's not usually a good idea if the enemy has counter cav though (unless it's just their lower-honor Daimyo, in which case it can be a golden opportunity to cut the head from the snake early on, particularly if he has no heirs; Hojo does not early on, and it is greatly desireable for the Uesugi to eliminate them before the maturation of Hojo Ujiyasu).
In this kind of battle, if I can produce them and I'm not going to use the cav-cross-harrass-confuse method, I take a unit or two of Nag cav, keeping them in reserve for the moment the enemy begins to waver in the main attack across the bridge, after all the cat and mouse games. Their attack capability is formidable and usually they are the final blow that routes and then chases down the enemy. A unit or two of monks can be good for this too, so long as the enemy archers are out of ammo or significantly attritioned.
My favorite opening strategy as Uesugi in the original Sengoku campaign requires two well-fought bridge battles with basic troops early on. I abandon Hida and Shinano on Turn 1, shifting all forces east to take Hitachi on Turn 3, and Shimosa on Turn 4, destroying Hojo troop production within the first year. After another bridge battle in Musashi a few turns later, the Hojo are wiped out, and my income more than doubled. Shortly thereafter, I retake Shinano permanently, attacking from Echigo, Kozuke and Musashi simultaneously. As Echigo and Musashi are river provinces, they require far fewer troops to defend effectively, allowing me to stack in Shinano. Three-point defense, two of them rivers: within the first four years this puts the Uesugi in a formidable position strategically and economically. It will be years before attack from Noto/Sado becomes a significant risk, so there's plenty of time to bolster than last pole after establishing command of the eastern provinces.
Anyway, I digress. I enjoy reading about different approaches to try. Thanks.
Masamune, that's almost exactly how I played my last Uesugi campaign; you'll never run out of koku with all those farming provinces.
ReluctantSamurai
03-21-2008, 22:19
One can also not underestimate the effects of weather. If you are short on ranged attackers and the enemy has them in numbers, attacking in rain (hvy thunderstorm=optimal) negates some of the dmg.
I like fog because I can race my CA forward to do some initial damage and depending on how close the river banks are, they can get in a fair amount of targeting from the rear at enemy units retreating away from the bridge.
If I have any fast-moving infantry (like ND or WM) I will often send them across, at this time if enemy formations are disrupted enough. If the havoc thus created is enough, I send my cavalry across (which by this time will get in a fair number of flanking attacks on the disordered enemy).
Without any kind of bad weather, the afore-mentioned tactics will have to do.
One other worth mentioning, for those who don't adhere to any "traditionalist" notions, is to combine fog with BFN & Kensei. When I get slightly bored with the 'usual' I resort to this as a fun diversion. I've taken to creating an entire army of BFN with a Kensei Taisho...........they become my "bridge-busters" as well as my "port-raiders".
Cheesy, but it's a fun diversion, once in awhile:laugh4:
Togakure
03-22-2008, 00:25
These are also interesting tactics and will be fun to try. Attacking a bridge rapidly in fog sounds fun indeed. Weather is one of the best things about Shogun battles, I think. Foggy battles are just too much fun.
I will never forget one MP battle, 3v3, in which Paolino Paperino came at me unseen through fog with his wingm8 supporting, very rapidly from the beginning of the game. I was totally surprised, had no time to think or plan or even type "HHHHELLLEPPPP!!!!" All of a sudden his entire army was right on top of me. Fortunately my wingm8 Anskar has ESP, and managed to save my arse with an incredible counter surprise attack. It was one of those most awesomest of battles you never forget, and the fog made it so. I wish it were possible to force foggy weather in a custom SP or MP battle.
Heh, I think perhaps you took my use of the term "traditionalist" out of context, ReluctantSamurai. By traditionalist, I was speaking in roleplay form, as a Japanese Daimyo who despises using firearms, being cowardly gaijin weapons. Such a daimyo would have no qualms about using ninja or a swordmaster. I only adopt that attitude for variety in gameplay. In SP: whatever floats your boat, I say.
I love using BFN for kicks too, much in the manner you describe, except that I don't often tech up my Sword Dojos enough to sport a Kensai gen. Kensai as gen for a ninja army does makes sense considering that only the gen unit can be seen by the AI. This allows him to lead the enemy into ambush prepared by the hidden ninja units.
Isn't that a fun and somewhat unconventional opening for the Uesugi, Wasp? I love the result. If you want to turtle, that's a great position to tuck tail. If ports are built in Echigo and Musashi, all three front line provinces can exchange troops freely in a turn. The enemies often throw themselves at Shinano again and again, which can be fun for a while. Plenty of opportunity for nonvariable income sources (ports, trading posts, and mines) to supplement the already huge farming income.
Oops, gotta run now to catch my train home!
ReluctantSamurai
03-22-2008, 02:19
Kensai as gen for a ninja army does makes sense considering that only the gen unit can be seen by the AI.
Took me awhile to figure that one out:dizzy2:
It's a blast watching enemy formations head towards the Kensei, only to get bush-whacked by the BFN. Often times the Kensei Taisho hasn't even finished his cigar before the battle is over:laugh4:
Heh, I think perhaps you took my use of the term "traditionalist" out of context,
No, I think I understood:yes: I just didn't want anyone getting their knickers in a snit because of the use of non-historical units. Glad to see someone else enjoys them too, from time-to-time......... :laugh4:
I don't often tech up my Sword Dojos enough to sport a Kensei gen.
I only tech up a few dojo's to produce Kensei......Satsuma for its bonus (IIRC, the ND bonus applies to Kensei) and one or two others to provide armor/weapon upgrades...........
Isn't that a fun and somewhat unconventional opening for the Uesugi, Wasp? I love the result. If you want to turtle, that's a great position to tuck tail. If ports are built in Echigo and Musashi, all three front line provinces can exchange troops freely in a turn. The enemies often throw themselves at Shinano again and again, which can be fun for a while. Plenty of opportunity for nonvariable income sources (ports, trading posts, and mines) to supplement the already huge farming income.
Oops, gotta run now to catch my train home!
Yes, I proceeded to turtle and build up huge stacks of elite forces and had some fun battles between Kenshin and Shingen. With Kenshin having the most cavalry, hehe ~;)
I only tech up a few dojo's to produce Kensei......Satsuma for its bonus (IIRC, the ND bonus applies to Kensei) and one or two others to provide armor/weapon upgrades...........
In my experience, the Kensai seems to get to honour four / five in his first two battles pretty quick, so I usually don't bother with a bonus like that.. just make sure he gets the palace, swordsmith and armory upgrades ~:)
Use one unit of spearmen at a time to cross the bridge, draw fire, and draw the enemy melee units into your ranged fire ...
A more fun, less exploitive way to do it is to put cav in columns 2-3 wide, ...
Made the quotes shorter, they're just there to point at what I'm talking about.
I use both tricks as well, all the time. I can't even remember a battle I didn't. I usually use my Daimyo as bait in the first method. May sound dumb, but believe me, he doesn't die anyway. Otherwise YS/Nag, anything that doesn't die too soon. It doesn't matter if they rout. They'll rally anyway.
It's not possible to command your archers onto the bridge to get in range, or park your naginata there to block and suck monks in, but you can order them to cross it and cancel the move order when they are halfway, same effect.
Ah! Another trick I use sometimes. ~:) I found it helpful against mongol light cavalry that was too eager to cross the bridge. A strong unit of YS will keep them away, while heavy fire destroyes their numbers. ~:) A long while back though, that battle..
The main reason I use ysams is lower cost and decent armor. Also, I don't engage the enemy melee units that counterattack on the enemy side of the bridge--I turn around and run back across the bridge, leading them into closer range of my archers.
Same for me. I send in my YS. I have them turn their back at the enemy. Then when they're close I have them run to my side again. The enemy usually keep chasing until almost at the bridge. This way you can get a nice number of volleys. (But always keep forces ready for when they do cross!)
My favorite opening strategy as Uesugi in the original Sengoku campaign requires two well-fought bridge battles with basic troops early on. I abandon Hida and Shinano on Turn 1, shifting all forces east to take Hitachi on Turn 3, and Shimosa on Turn 4, destroying Hojo troop production within the first year. After another bridge battle in Musashi a few turns later, the Hojo are wiped out, and my income more than doubled. Shortly thereafter, I retake Shinano permanently, attacking from Echigo, Kozuke and Musashi simultaneously. As Echigo and Musashi are river provinces, they require far fewer troops to defend effectively, allowing me to stack in Shinano.
Wow! Cool idea. I definately have to try this one sometime. I usually abandon Hida (But sometimes rebels leave it and I send in forces later on), but I protect Shinano first turn with 6 units. (2 from Echigo as well) This works, but it's a pain. I have to keep sending troops into Shinano, as Imagawa keeps attacking. I usually team up with Takeda to wipe out Hojo. And then I wipe out Takeda as well. I can well imagine that your strategy works faster. (better) So, in my next campaign, I'll have to try. :beam:
I will never forget one MP battle, 3v3, in which Paolino Paperino came at me unseen through fog with his wingm8 supporting, very rapidly from the beginning of the game. I was totally surprised, had no time to think or plan or even type "HHHHELLLEPPPP!!!!" All of a sudden his entire army was right on top of me.
Gah! I do have one MP memory about fog as well. Very scary, though it went well. Was a 1v1 against ehh... RabidGibbon. Ah yes. I think to think to come up with a name. ~:) Such battles/moments are very memorable, I have numerous more. Makes me sad again that's there's no MP crowd left anymore. :no:
I don't really use the Kensai of BFN, because usually when I can train them it's very late in the game, I don't actually need more troops to finish the last stage, and it takes long to train these. I used them occasionally though. I liked about Kensai that it usually took 0 losses while improving it's honour level. :yes:
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