They banned youtube in Turkey

[Mete Han]

Some defense attorney somehow managed to get youtube banned in Turkey. The reason is because Ataturk is being attacked. How can he be so stupid? everybody attacks each other on youtube. Though this is not the first time youtube was banned in Turkey and in a matter of days we will have access again. what the hell are they thinking!?!?!

[Mouzafphaerre]

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What bothers me is workarounds of the :daisy: bans that I know of aren't working anymore. (Bypassing the root DNS by Treewalk...) ~:pissed:
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[Mouzafphaerre]

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Found the solution (http://sozluk.sourtimes.org/show.asp?t=yasakli+sitelere+erisim+kilavuzu). :2thumbsup:
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[Strike For The South]

Why is so much emphasis placed on a man?

[Ayachuco]

Isn't he that guy who Westernized Turkey??? Or am I thinking about somebody else?
Sorry for my lack of knowledge of Turkey...I never really payed much attention to it in my studies or readings.

[Geoffrey S]

Same way Founding Fathers were, and possibly still are sacred in the US for quite a while.

[PershsNhpios]

You must remember that Turkey, though Westernized as much as it shall ever be, is a nation successive of an Empire that had loyal, unquestioning soldiery, a populace completely dependent upon the thoughts and words of their leader, who allowed even the structure of their religion to be altered by the Sultan, and by the Young Turks, of which Jemal Pasha, or later, Kemal Ataturk, (Whom I did not realise still lived), and though the Turks housed as many bright and radiant minds as any culture,
they very much defined any breed of cattle in their ignorance of the international world, and concentration on simple lives and tasks alone.
They were very content to either live simply within their community, or be recruited into military service - in which they served a brutal sentence.

From what I can see, and to quote T.E. Lawrence, "The American lifestyle showed the encouragement of free speech, this animated the Balkan nations - the American schools unwittingly taught revolution to the Eastern world", (This is not exact - see Seven Pillars of Wisdom), so the Albanians, Armenians, Georgians, Arabs, Egyptians, Judeans, Persians, Greeks, Macedonians and Belo-Russians all rebelled in a very short period of time, all successfully, and during each nation's rebellion they became Westernized through their new beliefs.
However, the Turks could not rebel from themselves, and so change was, and still is rather difficult for their culture.

This is unless there be a man of the nation himself here to speak, against what I have said, and if he would then I would withdraw most things written as tainted.

[KukriKhan]

Here's the BBC's report: Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6427355.stm).

Excerpt:

...According to Turkish media, there has been a "virtual war" between Greek and Turkish users of the site, with both sides posting insulting videos.

The clip prompting the ban reportedly dubbed Ataturk and Turks homosexuals...

[Papewaio]

Ataturk is quite well known in Australia... for pretty obvious reasons.

Highly respected and the strange thing is that Melbourne has probably the highest population of Greeks in a single city outside of Greece... but we have very little Turkish vs Greek issues... except at football (soccer) and tennis events. :dizzy2:

[Mete Han]

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Found the solution (http://sozluk.sourtimes.org/show.asp?t=yasakli+sitelere+erisim+kilavuzu). :2thumbsup:
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as your name says you are a really muzaffer guy.

[Mete Han]

Why is so much emphasis placed on a man?

He is not a man anymore, his name stands for an institution. When Ataturk is mentioned it brings up the ideas of secularism and modernization to people's minds. So in Turkey when Ataturk is attacked actually it is secularism and modernization movement that is being attacked. When the Turkish independence war was over the assembly wanted him to become the next caliph and the next sultan but Mustafa Kemal rejected this and started over-night revolutions. However even today there are many people in Turkey who couldn't internalize the revolutions and they still want Sheriat or a kind of an Islamic state. The funny thing is the Western Powers want Turkey to be an Islamic state as well, I wonder why? The current prime minister and his party are well known Ataturk and Secularism enemies and they got 47 per cent of votes in the last election. Can you actually believe that people may want to switch their lives for a more totalitarian and irrational regime? I sometimes think that this is because people are so poor in Turkey but then I realize that even rich some people support this Islamic thing, you know. Of course when there is an irrational state of things it is easier to exploit poor people.

And of course there is this tradition for Greeks to attack Ataturk. I really do not understand why they do that. But my guess is with the eighties but actually starting from seventies both Turkey and Greece were literally forced to embrace more conservative policies (right wing) in order to contain Soviet
expansion. These policies were not counter checked and so the two nations became enemies. Well I am not sure about the Greek case but in Turkey this is especially true. The US supported the coup in turkey in 1980 and after that the policies and the constitution became significantly rightist. I hope some Greek friends can help us understand the reasons for bashing Ataturk.

And finally I suspect that the attorney actually issued such a complaint in order to get some promotion or something. I mean censoring things does not solve issues for example the Armenian problem was not discussed in Turkey until some major powers started to accept the claim that there had been a genocide. For years Turkey could not produce counter arguments about it for it was not discussed.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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as your name says you are a really muzaffer guy.

:bow:

While I'll keep my opinions for the person in question to myself (suffice to say that they're not in concordance with the popular one), I have to tell you about the fact that he has a cult, which is virtually almost a state religion. He is protected by law (act #5816 if you wish to check) literally from insult but practically you can't but praise him or you're powned. :wacko:

The idiotic part with this matter lies in the glorious state, being unable to do anything about Youtube itself, bans its citizens from accesing the site. "There's a good kid! You won't go to that nasty place will you! :bobby2:"
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[Mete Han]

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:bow:

While I'll keep my opinions for the person in question to myself (suffice to say that they're not in concordance with the popular one), I have to tell you about the fact that he has a cult, which is virtually almost a state religion. He is protected by law (act #5816 if you wish to check) literally from insult but practically you can't but praise him or you're powned. :wacko:

The idiotic part with this matter lies in the glorious state, being unable to do anything about Youtube itself, bans its citizens from accesing the site. "There's a good kid! You won't go to that nasty place will you! :bobby2:"
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Of course he is protected by law because as I said Ataturk is a major intitution and also is one ofthe foundations of the regime.

Well you cannot ban people fro youtube, they'll get another id and might log on from somewhere else. Noone should be banned from the internet.

[PershsNhpios]

The Greek belligerence against Turkish people?

I would think it generally agreed that over a century of subjection and slavery would produce blood feuds and grudges between two nations violent enough to last an equal length of time.
If you cannot understand this, then picture how the Western world still violates the peace that is deserved in Adolf Hitler's death, by publicly humiliating his image wherever possible.
The Jews, the Americans, and even the Germans themselves do this, and it is for the same reason that the Balkan countries generally despise the Turks.

Kemal Ataturk might be diplomatic in dealing with tourists who wish to recreate the assault on Gelibuli, and he may of done many great things in the name of his country - and in the tradition of his forefathers and his family's beliefs, (As the hated Hitler did), but in the war he instigated as many tortures, proscribed as many murders and humiliated as many lesser men under subjection as any dictator in history.


Myself, I agree with this decision, I adore the idea of nationality again - instead of this damned, 'Global Village', and even this very internet forum helps in keeping us all busily interested in the affairs of other countries, and not our own.
If YouTube is banned in Turkey, though it may seem an invasion of rights and a great injustice, yet it may bring dedication and ambition to the country once more.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Of course he is protected by law because as I said Ataturk is a major intitution and also is one ofthe foundations of the regime.
Everybody is entitled to having opinions so :bow:

Greek nationalists are no better than their counterparts in the rest of the world. It's hilarious how nationalists of different countries poke firstly each other. :clown:
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[Mete Han]

The Greek belligerence against Turkish people?

Kemal Ataturk might be diplomatic in dealing with tourists who wish to recreate the assault on Gelibuli, and he may of done many great things in the name of his country - and in the tradition of his forefathers and his family's beliefs, (As the hated Hitler did), but in the war he instigated as many tortures, proscribed as many murders and humiliated as many lesser men under subjection as any dictator in history.


Myself, I agree with this decision, I adore the idea of nationality again - instead of this damned, 'Global Village', and even this very internet forum helps in keeping us all busily interested in the affairs of other countries, and not our own.
If YouTube is banned in Turkey, though it may seem an invasion of rights and a great injustice, yet it may bring dedication and ambition to the country once more.

Firstly, I understand why balkan people hate Turks. The thing that I dont understand is that when Turks hate Greeks they hate them as a whole and do not point out just one person from Greece. I mean Turks do not hate Venizelos or some Greek General or King in particular where as the Greeks especially attack Ataturk.

Secondly I really don't see how censorsing youtube will revitalize Turkish Nationalism. On the contrary we think the censorship is wrong because we cannot attack back. Individual rights and justice is not an issue in Turkey, we don't care... Turkey has a very collectivist and conformist culture.

[edyzmedieval]

Greeks had strong issues against Turks since 1453, and fanatical Greeks still want Konstantinopouli back. It will continue for a long long time. Nationalism will ALWAYS exist on this Earth and it's present in every country, more or less.

[Geoffrey S]

It shows the risky side of identifying a single person so strongly with national pride. Stupid as it may seem, an attack on the person does become an attack against what has been made a foundation of the nation, and people who actually did anything in their lives are incredibly vulnerable to smear campaigns. I guess Turkish authorities are scared to death of that happening, and don't dare to attempt a Secret Speech while there are so many opponents waiting to pounce.

[Ronin]

all I have to say is that Turkey better not be offered entrance to the European Union while this kind of stuff still goes on.

[Mete Han]

[QUOTE=, and don't dare to attempt a Secret Speech while there are so many opponents waiting to pounce.[/QUOTE]

What is a Secret Speech?

[PershsNhpios]

Medieval, I will write more tomorrow on the subject of Nationalism if necessary, however, it being midnight;
It suffices to be said that Nationalism can not exist in a Union of representatives.
Those European cultures who submit their currency to be labelled a Euro are forfeiting their Nationality by enlisting in a Union that is becoming far more encompassing than necessary.

My country, Australia, forfeits the very possibility of Nationalism for the reason that every citizen is terrified of being labelled racist, and so welcomes in their public image every culture and every person and every religion, without accepting one as the definition of the Australian belief and ambition.
This mistake would be corrected by close attention to the fable of the Old Man, the Boy and the Donkey - in which the moral belief concerns not attempting to please every opinion and request, but doing what you believe is right for yourself.
It is selfish, it is humanity, it is nationality.

And banning YouTube will do little to support my ideal alone, for it is rather extreme in the eyes of all, that worldwide broadcasts would do well to be banned, international media in any case is a tool that, even with the very best intentions, brings positive harm and stagnation to countries, such as mine.
Which, through international media, has allowed the population to become enslaved in the American lifestyle, and belief, and allowed those who machinate the commonalty of the United States to machinate the commonalty of every country in the Coalition.

This media allows those who would spread truth and good to do the greater good, and those who would manipulate and scheme to do the greater injustice - it is only natural for there to exist an overwhelming majority of the latter. And so we become enthralled in cases that serve only as distraction from our own lives.

I give myself as an example, a young Australian rider, who focuses his ambition solely on the study of Classical Literature and Classical Equitation, who in order to distract himself from the boredom that accompanies the idleness of one with a terribly injured leg, uses this media to discuss the relations between the Turkish and Balkan peoples - when otherwise I would be more involved politically or somewhat constructively with my own country, along with many others, with such an interest.

[Geoffrey S]

What is a Secret Speech?
Khrushchev's speech denouncing Stalin, attempting to distance the Soviet Union's leadership from the personality cult of Stalin and reinvent the state.

[Tribesman]

My country, Australia, forfeits the very possibility of Nationalism for the reason that every citizen is terrified of being labelled racist, and so welcomes in their public image every culture and every person and every religion, without accepting one as the definition of the Australian belief and ambition.
Your country forfeits the real possibility of nationalism as you view it because it is made up of many nationalities , there is no defining culture since it is a hodge podge of many cultures , to accept only one culture/person/religeon destroys the very thing that Australia now is .

[Papewaio]

Medieval, I will write more tomorrow on the subject of Nationalism if necessary, however, it being midnight;
It suffices to be said that Nationalism can not exist in a Union of representatives.
Those European cultures who submit their currency to be labelled a Euro are forfeiting their Nationality by enlisting in a Union that is becoming far more encompassing than necessary.

My country, Australia, forfeits the very possibility of Nationalism for the reason that every citizen is terrified of being labelled racist, and so welcomes in their public image every culture and every person and every religion, without accepting one as the definition of the Australian belief and ambition.
This mistake would be corrected by close attention to the fable of the Old Man, the Boy and the Donkey - in which the moral belief concerns not attempting to please every opinion and request, but doing what you believe is right for yourself.
It is selfish, it is humanity, it is nationality.


You do of course realise that Australia is a Commonwealth and hence is the equivalent of a Union of Nations.

Nationalism in the form of sport is very much alive in Australia. There is no reason that all should have to belong to one culture, ethnic group or religion.

I will welcome an identical brotherhood of men when I give up my desire for something so opposite and strange and cultural different as woman.

[KrooK]

I don't see anything bad into this fact. If youtube broke law, it must be punished. I would be for banning youtube if it show something offensive about Pope John Paul II or Marschall Jozef Pilsudski.

[Papewaio]

In places that are Westernised & Secular they would believe in Free Speech. The irony here is restricting free speech for attacking an icon of Westernisation and Secular ideas.

Youtube does not post the video's, individuals do. Also the viewers have the choice or a) Not viewing a video and b) not agreeing with the content and c) then discussing the content in a mature manner. When the state decides that it's citizens are not mature enough to view content then either you have very immature citizens or a state doing things for political gain. Strangely enough most nations have mature citizens, so censorship is generally done for control and or votes.

[PershsNhpios]

Australia takes sporting in general far too seriously, to such a climax as nothing else matters when there is an uproar in cricket or Rugby League, and, semi-jokingly the, "National Pride", is hurt when Australia loses against England or quite really any country participating.
The Australian citizen, not unlike most Western people, attempts to conform his or her ideas to that which is the ethical belief of our international society.

That is, the acceptance of every race, religion and colour of skin as equal, that none of these things describes or ascertains to difference between us and that there should never be a virtuous person who notices dissimilarity.
This is the same topical, hypothetical illusion developed by internationality that led to a supposed, dream of world peace, created in a rosy image to calm one's fear for their public opinion on a global scale.
These things are an unintentional fear tactic that push us further from our nature as we try to avoid upsetting the New World Order.

But we are different, those who come from the continent of Asia are generally shorter, those from Mesopotamia have coarser features and thicker facial hair than those I have witnessed from the Italian peninsula.
These people all have naturally different intentions and, left as a community with the object of achieving the greater good for themselves, as seperate races they will all find different paths of accomplishing this, and inevitably clash with each other in doing so.

By simply allowing every race to form a community together, and then do this, the clash occurs not after nations are formed, but before.

This is not to say people of different races cannot form a community - an example of the positive influence is the Austro-Hungarian Empire, a large territory which included not only many cultures but an overwhelming number of languages.
However, this mix only achieved success by the co-operation of every cultural member, every citizen had to dream of the same end for the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and though at the beginning, there were Serbs and Croatians and Germans and Austrians, and Poles - at the end of all this there were Austro-Hungarians.

But this cannot happen in Australia, because at first the European controlled the Aborigine through conquest, and now the Aborigine and the Asian control the European through the apologetic, passive attitude of the latter.
This means that there are different peoples all requesting different ends and solutions from their country, which is in the hands of another in any case, and some do not wish for anything at all, except Sunday cricket.
No race in Australia wishes to take control, to convince others to conform either to their wishes, or to any one wish, and until one does, Australia can not be a nation.

[Mouzafphaerre]

I don't see anything bad into this fact. If youtube broke law, it must be punished. I would be for banning youtube if it show something offensive about Pope John Paul II or Marschall Jozef Pilsudski.
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Let me say once again: They don't ban Youtube. They simply can't! They prevent Turkish internet users from accessing it, or anything they (dis)like. Miserable.
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[Tribesman]

Well I don't know about the you tube debate , but it appears this topic may have the makings of a fruit loop nationalism debate .

[Papewaio]

This is not to say people of different races cannot form a community - an example of the positive influence is the Austro-Hungarian Empire, a large territory which included not only many cultures but an overwhelming number of languages.
However, this mix only achieved success by the co-operation of every cultural member, every citizen had to dream of the same end for the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and though at the beginning, there were Serbs and Croatians and Germans and Austrians, and Poles - at the end of all this there were Austro-Hungarians.
...
No race in Australia wishes to take control, to convince others to conform either to their wishes, or to any one wish, and until one does, Australia can not be a nation.

Surely your example counters your proposed outcome.

IMDHO it may be that the direction for Australia is to be more Laissez-faire in a cultural context and let individuals be that. Let them chose from the many cultures on display, just like a foodcourt, and let them eat and be merry. Let ideas mix and multiple. All races are different, none are superior and we need differences in a modern economy more then uniformity.


But this cannot happen in Australia, because at first the European controlled the Aborigine through conquest, and now the Aborigine and the Asian control the European through the apologetic, passive attitude of the latter.

Even if you said was 100% and the outcome was as ascertained, you are missing the point that Australians are not all either Aboriginal or European. I find it funny to say that Europeans are more passive then Asians... not sure which communities that is true in. We have a rather large cross-section from around the world. All are welcome, please bring your cultures, traditions, religions, sports, foods, ideas and hard work. Please leave all old hatreds and prejudices at the door. Please keep your mother tongue whilst learning English to communicate with your fellow Aussies.

I enjoy having a Turkish Kebab, Chinese dumplings, Italian cap, large with 2 sugars, Belgian Beer and chocolate... why should I stop at food and not enjoy other facets of culture? Watch a movie from another nation, read a book that has been translated, talk on the internet with people with other ideas. The fruit of progress is in differences not grey out passive uniformity.

The Australian nation is a multi-culture not a mono-culture. It might be too complex for some, but I for one welcome our new multi-cultural overlords.

[KukriKhan]

Well I don't know about the you tube debate , but it appears this topic may have the makings of a fruit loop nationalism debate .

http://www.texascooking.com/gif/new/fruit_loops1.jpg

pretty diverse buncha loops there.

[CrossLOPER]

...According to Turkish media, there has been a "virtual war" between Greek and Turkish users of the site, with both sides posting insulting videos.
Yeah, I've noticed this. I was looking at a M2TW battle that involved Turks and Byzantines and there were some people, presumambly Greeks and Turks, engaging in a flame war.

[Mikeus Caesar]

I don't see anything bad into this fact. If youtube broke law, it must be punished. I would be for banning youtube if it show something offensive about Pope John Paul II or Marschall Jozef Pilsudski.

Why do you hate freedom?

[PershsNhpios]

Waio,

You have directed the last few paragraphs of your reply not to me, or the subject of which I speak, but in a common attempt to improve your image, or sustain it.
This is what I argue against, as soon as one might fear the entrance of racism or predjudice into discussion, they immediately are pressured into supplying reasons to show themselves innocent of such community crimes.
And thus you proceeded to try and justify your position with people of different races by expressing your liking, supposed or not, for their cultural food.

Now it is not a culinary, or indeed racial topic on which I speak, it is a national topic.

I do not intend to say that one race is superior to another - I intend to, I have, and I will say that races are different - and difference is not superiority, that is impossible.
I argue not that nationalism in Australia is railroaded by a vast variety of restaurants, nor literature, or philosophy, or the great amount of languages spoken one after the other in Airports. No!
I write, and argue, that nationalism fails because the different races that introduce these ideals and lifestyles do not even attempt to unite themselves under a single goal, and end for their country that they wish to become dedicated to.
Instead, they all want completely separate things from their residences, and pull conformity to shreds in doing so.

This discussion is not yet concluded, however, I will explain why it is near impossible to have this conversation with an Australian, aside from their fear of predjudice.
Mark how you have taken comments and ideas that did not exist in my speech, but rather in the impression you have taken from a person you have not met, and attempted to use them against me as rebuttals.
You reprimand me dismissively for saying the the European people are more passive than the Asian people, yet I have not said this, this is what I wrote,

"and now the Aborigine and the Asian control the European through the apologetic, passive attitude of the latter.",
neither was proclaimed more so than the other, and this statement was meant not as a racial slur but to comment upon how first one ruled the other by genocide, and then the one was ruled by their own regret. Neither is fair or correct - Neither are practical things!
You have also accused me, charged me with wishing for a nation to be cut off from other cultures completely, to eradicate all but one. But you have disregarded my example of an Empire maintained by several cultures, and how this is possible. You disregarded this and placed efforts that you wanted to despise in my words.
I have said that international media, created in the light of, and for the international community - not, the national communities, do positive harm. This means not to censure literature, or geography, or any factual information that can never be exploited but only provide knowledge, it censures international news and media which are in almost all cases not factual - but opinionated, and therefore completely vulnerable to the charms of what is known as propaganda!

I think that you will be unable of arguing with me fairly, and upon the subject I wish to speak of, until you resign yourself to a neutral seat as I have, and see us not talking about your, or our country, but Australia, or any country with a large multi-culturalism. Because you view all that I say not only with the natural defensive attitude one takes in discussion of their own home, but also with regard to your own personal awareness of the audience of all this, and the dire need to express favour and kindness to cultures and people not present.
As for Mikeus, whose apparent last name I shall not mention for the vanity of it, (Dare not use it in novelty!), if you declare the use of one's freedom to make immature jokes at the expense of the most popular leader of another land, and another populace quite justified, then why do you not, in your defence of truth and freedom - attack the very idea of publishing laws - which in their very definition cause offense to the freedom you scorn KrooK representatively.

Idealism may very well be the anti-christ of the Nationalist religion, the right to suppose as many ridiculous propositions as one might admire - and not do a damned thing to create reality in any one of them.

As for all this fairness and justice and goodness being so outwardly and quickly shown to every race in the, 'family of man', as soon as a different culture is mentioned - Aristotleles is quite correct in his theory that wealth is a greater good than justice, for that which a man would seek without any other knowing of it is to be considered the greatest good, and though all men would seek wealth in all things without the public knowledge, no man sees justice as rewarding and good unless it is known to others.

[Tribesman]

pretty diverse buncha loops there.
Yep that purple one looks smaller and the red one appears coarser than the blue .

[Meneldil]

Wow, some posts I read here are quite scary.

Do the 1930's ring a bell ?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Wow, some posts I read here are quite scary.

Do the 1930's ring a bell ?Why do you hate totalitarianism? :smash:

[CrossLOPER]

I don't see anything bad into this fact. If youtube broke law, it must be punished. I would be for banning youtube if it show something offensive about Pope John Paul II or Marschall Jozef Pilsudski.
It's not really freedom if everything that offends you is banned.

[Tribesman]

Wow, some posts I read here are quite scary.

Come on , they are really hilarious , you gotta love the lame attempt at greek philosophy :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Mete Han]

are there any other video sharing sites that is equivalent to youtube? I know stage6 but there are too few vidoes posted on there. It seems as though we wont be getting youtube back for a long time because nobody is discussing the censorship in Turkey right now. We have other problems as Turban and turban and bla bla bla... god I hate this government.

[Fragony]

are there any other video sharing sites that is equivalent to youtube? I know stage6 but there are too few vidoes posted on there. It seems as though we wont be getting youtube back for a long time because nobody is discussing the censorship in Turkey right now. We have other problems as Turban and turban and bla bla bla... god I hate this government.


www.liveleak.com

[doc_bean]

The funny thing is the Western Powers want Turkey to be an Islamic state as well, I wonder why?

Because most people are idiots, western politicians especially.

[Papewaio]

Waio,

You have directed the last few paragraphs of your reply not to me, or the subject of which I speak, but in a common attempt to improve your image, or sustain it.
This is what I argue against, as soon as one might fear the entrance of racism or predjudice into discussion, they immediately are pressured into supplying reasons to show themselves innocent of such community crimes.
And thus you proceeded to try and justify your position with people of different races by expressing your liking, supposed or not, for their cultural food.


And there is a lot of food I don't like. For instance Stinky Tofu, which the Taiwanese love and I told some of them near and dear to me the reason Taiwan does not have a position in the UN is because of that food. Likewise I do not like all aspects of all cultures. I like to pick and choose the foods that I like, the music I like, the literarture that I like and the way of life I like from the smorgasboard presented to me in a multi-culture. People are prejudiced, that's fine. Its bad when it stops us from understanding and growing.


Now it is not a culinary, or indeed racial topic on which I speak, it is a national topic.

Culture's primary vehicles are language and food. A national identity is linked to its cultural one. So a discussion on nationalism should not skip the day to day links of food and language. After all we need one to discuss the ideas and the other to fuel them.


I do not intend to say that one race is superior to another - I intend to, I have, and I will say that races are different - and difference is not superiority, that is impossible.
I argue not that nationalism in Australia is railroaded by a vast variety of restaurants, nor literature, or philosophy, or the great amount of languages spoken one after the other in Airports. No!
I write, and argue, that nationalism fails because the different races that introduce these ideals and lifestyles do not even attempt to unite themselves under a single goal, and end for their country that they wish to become dedicated to.
Instead, they all want completely separate things from their residences, and pull conformity to shreds in doing so.

And my contention is that the Australian identity is not and should not be a single goal. We should stay multi, cultural, task, ability... there is no compelling reason to unite under a single goal. Mind you I have to ask, what is the single goal? I could say that at the moment it is be all you can be and let the invisible hand create the economic growth.


This discussion is not yet concluded, however, I will explain why it is near impossible to have this conversation with an Australian, aside from their fear of predjudice.
Mark how you have taken comments and ideas that did not exist in my speech, but rather in the impression you have taken from a person you have not met, and attempted to use them against me as rebuttals.
You reprimand me dismissively for saying the the European people are more passive than the Asian people, yet I have not said this, this is what I wrote,

"and now the Aborigine and the Asian control the European through the apologetic, passive attitude of the latter.",
neither was proclaimed more so than the other, and this statement was meant not as a racial slur but to comment upon how first one ruled the other by genocide, and then the one was ruled by their own regret. Neither is fair or correct - Neither are practical things!

I didn't take it as a racial slur, I took it as incorrect. I do not see any control mechanism's attached to Aborigine's desire for an apology. And I definitely don't see European's as passive when compared with Asians.


You have also accused me, charged me with wishing for a nation to be cut off from other cultures completely, to eradicate all but one. But you have disregarded my example of an Empire maintained by several cultures, and how this is possible. You disregarded this and placed efforts that you wanted to despise in my words.

Actually I noted your example and stated that it countered your own train of thought.


I have said that international media, created in the light of, and for the international community - not, the national communities, do positive harm.

We can't really complain as for a nation of our size we have created a lot of that same international media.



This means not to censure literature, or geography, or any factual information that can never be exploited but only provide knowledge, it censures international news and media which are in almost all cases not factual - but opinionated, and therefore completely vulnerable to the charms of what is known as propaganda!

And the reason most people dislike nationalism is that it relies not on facts but on propaganda. Very few nationalists also have a degree, particularly one that is based on hard core facts like science.



I think that you will be unable of arguing with me fairly, and upon the subject I wish to speak of, until you resign yourself to a neutral seat as I have, and see us not talking about your, or our country, but Australia, or any country with a large multi-culturalism. Because you view all that I say not only with the natural defensive attitude one takes in discussion of their own home, but also with regard to your own personal awareness of the audience of all this, and the dire need to express favour and kindness to cultures and people not present.

Oh, I realize that I have prejudices and taking a neutral stance is more difficult as such. I would actually call myself a West Islander first so I do have another layer of biases to contend with. I just see multi-culturalism as the equivalent of an alloy.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Culture's primary vehicles are language and food. Pape for global overlord!! http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Respect/respect1.gif

[Paradox]

There haven't been any official visits from Greece since 1959!?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7203999.stm

I guess this is big news then eh?