Jailbreak in Gaza [Archive]

Don Corleone

01-23-2008, 22:23

And the walls came tumbling down. :sunny:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/01/23/israel.gaza/index.html

The Israelis were starving the population of Gaza, depriving them of food and fuel, so the Palestinians did what people should do when locked up illegally - they broke out.

If the other Arab countries have any brains at all, they'll ship supplies to the Palestinians right away, but that might be expecting too much. In any case, this is a wonderful taste of freedom for a people who have had their freedom stolen from them for generations.

I'm sure right now Israel feels just like the Soviets did when they saw the first part of the wall coming down and their prisoner-peoples getting a taste of freedom. They must be going bonkers.

Sorry, Beirut, I missed when the East Berliners were blowing up Soviet school children and when the Poles continually fired rockets into suburbs in Moscow. Could you refresh my memory there, or was that analogy simply for dramatic affect?

FactionHeir

01-23-2008, 22:31

But then I imagine the East Berliners and Poles weren't treated as badly as the Palestinians by the Israelis with supplies being cut, economy starved and brought to collapse with little hope of ever restoring it, daily raids with innocent civilians as casualties, airstrikes, and kidnapping of government officials.
Controlling the media to make their actions harmless as opposed to the oppressed was done in either event I believe.
On the other hand my history of that era isn't all that great either.

Geoffrey S

01-23-2008, 22:44

I can imagine this kind of approach being of more use to Palestinian propaganda than firing mortars into Israel.

Beirut

01-23-2008, 22:49

Sorry, Beirut, I missed when the East Berliners were blowing up Soviet school children and when the Poles continually fired rockets into suburbs in Moscow.

I hear they had their own problems back in the '40s.

Could you refresh my memory there, or was that analogy simply for dramatic affect?

I's a scoundrel, ain't I? ~:smoking:

In any case, the oppressed are free and the oppressors have lost control. I'm loving it!

MiniMe

01-23-2008, 22:53

The problem with this comparison would be that East Berliners had Staatssicherheit and Poles had communists of their own.
Oh, almost forgot to mention: and those insidious barbaric russkies gave many more lives away in their struggle against communism than any other nation. A sad fact that would be very inconvenient for many people to acknowledge

So, perhaps it is not correct to compare these issues.

Louis VI the Fat

01-23-2008, 23:24

I'm sure right now Israel feels just like the Soviets did Excellent analogy!

The Soviets never did return the land they took from the Germans sixty years ago. And never will. Nor will the German refugees ever return.

~;p

Crazed Rabbit

01-23-2008, 23:39

I'm sure right now Israel feels just like the Soviets did.

So the Palestinians are the defeated Nazis, except they still, weekly, launch attacks against the civilians of Israel?

No, wait. I remember now that if one side is defeated in a war they started, they get a free moral pass to kill as many innocents, civilians, and wedding guests as they can for eternity.

You do know that Gaza is cut off because the rulers, Hamas, continually launch rockets into Israel? That if the scum bag terrorists actually ceased trying to kill as many Israeli people as they could, they wouldn't be in this situation? That its their persistence in attempted genocide that has led to their current state?

The Soviets never did return the land they took from the Germans sixty years ago. And never will. Nor will the German refugees ever return.

Lol!

CR

MiniMe

01-23-2008, 23:45

...they took from the Germans sixty years ago...
Oh, dear. One should pity those who's gave his vote for herr hittler. It really had some consequences for them after all

BTW, they were not the only one who took the land from Germany. Winners usually take land from Germany when Germany's losing a war. Elsass-Lothringen would a fine example.

Louis VI the Fat

01-23-2008, 23:58

'tis but a joke, MiniMe. Not a political statement about the SU. I's just a scoundrel, teasing Noam 'Beirut' Chomsky a bit. ~;)

Beirut

01-24-2008, 00:08

So the Palestinians are the defeated Nazis, except they still, weekly, launch attacks against the civilians of Israel?

Well, it was some future PMs of Israel, not Palestine, who were killing Allied soldiers (like the Nazis did) back in WWII, so I'm not really sure where to go with that. I guess I better stick to South African analogies for Israel from now on, eh? Silly ol' me.

In any case, I hope all this leads to something positive.

MiniMe

01-24-2008, 00:21

'tis but a joke, MiniMe. Not a political statement about the SU. I's just a scoundrel, teasing Noah 'Beirut' Chomsky a bit. ~;)
sorry for misreading, my fault entirely. Me got involved in a dispute on .twc recently and must have lost my sense of humor completely.
Damn, me thought to have enough will to abstain from these mudpit disputes over there! me's an idiot :wall:

x-dANGEr

01-24-2008, 00:22

No, wait. I remember now that if one side is defeated in a war they started, they get a free moral pass to kill as many innocents, civilians, and wedding guests as they can for eternity.

So the Palestinians started the war? Isn't this there land that's now got other people living on?

You do know that Gaza is cut off because the rulers, Hamas, continually launch rockets into Israel?
Do you know that they do that because of continious Israeli.. *some pages long of aggravating actions* .. actions.

That if the scum bag terrorists actually ceased trying to kill as many Israeli people as they could, they wouldn't be in this situation?
They are just people who are not ok with the loss of their land. Oh.. that's the definition of "scum bag terrorists" there?

Geoffrey S

01-24-2008, 00:34

'Their land'? Why any more so than third-generation Israelis living there now? Whatever it was sixty years ago, it's not theirs now.

Crazed Rabbit

01-24-2008, 00:42

Well, it was some future PMs of Israel, not Palestine, who were killing Allied soldiers (like the Nazis did) back in WWII,

And are they still doing it to this day?

So the Palestinians started the war? Isn't this there land that's now got other people living on?

Several Arab nations.

Do you know that they do that because of continious Israeli.. *some pages long of aggravating actions* .. actions.

Like giving control of Gaza back to Palestinian groups? And by Israeli actions, you mean like trying to stop the ceaseless rocket attacks on their civilians without slaughtering innocents?

They are just people who are not ok with the loss of their land. Oh.. that's the definition of "scum bag terrorists" there?

Hell yeah it is. Guess maybe they shouldn't have kept on launching wars on Israel, or they would have more land then they do today.

The support of supposedly anti-war types for the Palestinians is mind blowing. But I guess the left just followed the Soviet Union's dictates and haven't stopped.

CR

x-dANGEr

01-24-2008, 00:50

'Their land'? Why any more so than third-generation Israelis living there now? Whatever it was sixty years ago, it's not theirs now.
So you do admit it got "conquered"?
And basing on that, validate their resistance?

Several Arab nations.

Which war you're talking about?

Like giving control of Gaza back to Palestinian groups? And by Israeli actions, you mean like trying to stop the ceaseless rocket attacks on their civilians without slaughtering innocents?

No. No.

Hell yeah it is. Guess maybe they shouldn't have kept on launching wars on Israel, or they would have more land then they do today.
Define "resistance".. "launch war" ?

El Diablo

01-24-2008, 00:50

In threads like this the safest thing to do is

Stop - Drop - and Roll.

I am outta here kids - waaaaayy too hot :dizzy2:

(ED runs like the coward he is)

Geoffrey S

01-24-2008, 01:00

So the Palestinians started the war? Isn't this there land that's now got other people living on?

Several Arab nations.
It's also interesting to note that the Palestinians never actually had a nation, and only started claiming that status for themselves in reaction to the foundation of Israel and when surrounding Arab 'brothers' did astonishingly little to take them in. They were perfectly content to leave the Palestinians to fight a proxy war against Israel for their own territorial ambitions, and leave the mess for the rest of the world to sort out.

So you do admit it got "conquered"?
And basing on that, validate their resistance?
To the first, quite happily. Big mess all around largely caused by the Brits taking over, and the later Israelis capitalized on a situation in which the area was basically up for grabs. To the second, no. Israel is there now and is not going to leave, and is home by now to a native third generation (at least); in my mind that is enough justification for it to take measures against those that attack its sovereignty.

Papewaio

01-24-2008, 01:00

'Their land'? Why any more so than third-generation Israelis living there now? Whatever it was sixty years ago, it's not theirs now.

vs

'Their land'? Why any more so than ninety-generation Palestinians living there now? Whatever it was since Roman occupation, it's not theirs now.

Consider that there are reports of Palestinians tending Olive trees that there ancestors planted and that some of these tress are dying from old age, methinks they may be firmly rooted to their land.

Don Corleone

01-24-2008, 01:22

Beirut

01-24-2008, 01:25

All I know is that the news tonight showed film of Palestinians buying food, getting fuel, and a couple of guys hauling a nice old Honda motorcycle over the remnants of the wall into Gaza. One family was all dressed up, just walking around, enjoying being free for a while.

It looked great! :sunny:

Ice

01-24-2008, 01:29

Apartheid. Holocaust references. Facism. Yes, those nasty Israelis deserve all the scorn in the world, don't they Beirut? Why won't they just let those Palestinians blow up children at school and shut up about it? Why won't they just go away? Why won't they just shut up and die?

In all the years of arguing this topic with you, I've never once heard you offer a solution that doesn't coincide with the Palestinian solution... kill all the Israelis. Hmmm, and somehow, the Israelis are the thugs.

It's fairly typical. I see it from both sides here actually.

Once again, both sides are at fault. The Israelis are starving the people of Gaza, while the government in Gaza allows and most likely funds rocket attacks in Israel. No one here is really in the right.

I guess pointless bickering about who has the moral high ground works better though than finding a solution.

Ronin

01-24-2008, 01:29

Apartheid. Holocaust references. Facism. Yes, those nasty Israelis deserve all the scorn in the world, don't they Beirut? Why won't they just let those Palestinians blow up children at school and shut up about it? Why won't they just go away? Why won't they just shut up and die?

In all the years of arguing this topic with you, I've never once heard you offer a solution that doesn't coincide with the Palestinian solution... kill all the Israelis. Hmmm, and somehow, the Israelis are the thugs.

they´re both thugs....both sides in that problem have long ago lost the right to call them selfs the "good guys"....I say try to keep the explosions to a minimum...and that´s as good as it´s gonna get.

Ice

01-24-2008, 01:30

Don Corleone

01-24-2008, 01:34

And all I know is:

1) Hamas has admitted they played up the blackout/crackdown aspects http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1201070777685&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

and 2) More rockets landed in Israel from Gaza today.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/tharris00/rocket.jpg

Sorry, unlike you, I don't feel like smiling.

Beirut

01-24-2008, 01:37

Apartheid. Holocaust references. Facism. Yes, those nasty Israelis deserve all the scorn in the world, don't they Beirut? Why won't they just let those Palestinians blow up children at school and shut up about it? Why won't they just go away? Why won't they just shut up and die?

I think you'll be hard pressed to find any post where I said that.

In all the years of arguing this topic with you, I've never once heard you offer a solution that doesn't coincide with the Palestinian solution... kill all the Israelis. Hmmm, and somehow, the Israelis are the thugs.

I think you wil be hard pressed to find any post where I said that either.

Anything else?

Beirut

01-24-2008, 01:40

And all I know is:

1) Hamas has admitted they played up the blackout/crackdown aspects http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1201070777685&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

and 2) More rockets landed in Israel from Gaza today.

Sorry, unlike you, I don't feel like smiling.

If we're going to start exchanging photo albums of attrocities, this is going to be a long thread. I can dig up hundreds that show the Israelis being, shall we say, less than diplomatic with their Palestinian neighbours.

Don Corleone

01-24-2008, 01:40

woad&fangs

01-24-2008, 01:51

This will never get solved by politics. This ends when the country's youth look at each other and judge, not on the other persons religion, but on the content of each others character.* If the Palestinians are Ghettoed inside a wall(that bitter taste in your mouth is called hypocrisy. The remedy is to apologize and to tear down the wall) than the Israelis will see rockets instead of the people behind the wall. Rockets don't create friendships, people do.

*I'm on a MLK Jr. binge right now. Isreal could really benefit from a King Jr. like figure right now.

Beirut

01-24-2008, 01:52

I never said you advocate Hamas's exterminate all Jews policy. I said you've never offered an alternative, just that you agree with their conclusions. I've offered a 2-state solution as a compromise, and you've rejected it. You seem quite fixed on the idea that Jews must leave Israel.

I think the founding of Isreal where a population already lived was criminal. No bones about that. But I have said in the past, more than once, that since they're there, they're there, and they're going to stay there.

A two state solution is the way. I've said that before as well. But that means an independant Palestine, not a slave state permanently under the Israeli yoke and gun, which is what Israel wants.

You seem quite fixed on the idea that Jews must leave Israel.

You'll be hard pressd to find where I ever said that either.

Where, according to superior powers of logic, should they go?

Superior powers of logic? Arf! I think we'd need AdrianII in here for that. :toff:

woad&fangs

01-24-2008, 01:52

This will never get solved by politics. This ends when the country's youth look at each other and judge, not on the other persons religion, but on the content of each others character.* If the Palestinians are Ghettoed inside a wall(that bitter taste in your mouth is called hypocrisy. The remedy is to apologize and to tear down the wall) than the Israelis will see rockets instead of the people behind the wall. Rockets don't create friendships, people do.

*I'm on a MLK Jr. binge right now. Plus, Isreal could really benefit from a King Jr. like figure right now.

x-dANGEr

01-24-2008, 01:53

To the first, quite happily. Big mess all around largely caused by the Brits taking over, and the later Israelis capitalized on a situation in which the area was basically up for grabs.
Why should the Palestinian people take the hit when Britain promises and gives what it doesn't own?

seireikhaan

01-24-2008, 01:53

Don, are you telling me that depriving Palestinians of fuel and food is somehow going to deter attacks by radicals? You think sanctions which starve a populace is somehow going to make the average person LIKE Israel more, and thus diminish terrorist threats? Or do you think that getting revenge is more important than actually working towards peace?

Don Corleone

01-24-2008, 02:00

Beirut

01-24-2008, 02:18

Gaza is an independentally controlled area. It's Palestine, if you're looking for a Res Publica to assign it to. Israel has no control there. What Israel has done is establish a wall where no weapons will pass from Egypt to Gaza. Sooner or later, when your neighbor continues to shell you, you try to limit his access to weaponry.

Israel has built a wall to control the people. Period. They want the Palestinians subjegated. Anything less is unacceptable. If the Palestinians "go free", it will show that Israel has been repressing an entire people for generations. Keep them locked up, keep them looking and acting like savages, then they can brutalize them at will and save face with the excuse of, "Oh, but they want to kill us all. Poor, poor us!"

This is, for lack of a better word, a self-inflicted 'famine', blamed on who else? Those filthy Jews, yet again.

A self-inflicted famine? :inquisitive:

That's as extraordinary a statement as I have seen in my five-years at the Org.

And would you please stop calling them filthy Jews. The three kindest, gentlest, most humane people I have ever known were all Jewish, and none of them were filthy in any way.

seireikhaan

01-24-2008, 02:28

Gaza is an independentally controlled area. It's Palestine, if you're looking for a Res Publica to assign it to. Israel has no control there. What Israel has done is establish a wall where no weapons will pass from Egypt to Gaza. Sooner or later, when your neighbor continues to shell you, you try to limit his access to weaponry.

But if anybody read the link I posted (and for the record, don't let the name fool you, the Jerusalem Post is no Olmert apologist), Hamas has decreed as long as shipments are inspected, they'll consider that a boycott and no goods will be allowed.

This is, for lack of a better word, a self-inflicted 'famine', blamed on who else? Those filthy Jews, yet again.
:inquisitive: Hmm? Did YOU read the article? A) I'm not sure I trust the Jerusalem post on an issue regarding Palestinians, B) It never stated ANYWHERE that Hamas inflicted any kind of famine on the people, only blackouts, and C) ITS HAMAS' JOB TO HELP THE PEOPLE THERE! OF COURSE HE'S GOING TO WANT THE SANCTIONS LIFTED, PEOPLE ARE GOING WITHOUT FREAKIN' FOOD, WATER, AND GASOLINE! Would you not expect your own regional leader to stand up for you if you were in the Palestinian position? And before you even go on about Hamas not being elected, how far do you think he'd get if he didn't get support from the populace?

Xiahou

01-24-2008, 02:44

Geoffrey S

01-24-2008, 02:47

[quotes]
Consider that there are reports of Palestinians tending Olive trees that there ancestors planted and that some of these tress are dying from old age, methinks they may be firmly rooted to their land.
Clever. It might have been more useful if I'd been arguing that the Palestinians don't have a right to the land, which I wasn't.

Why should the Palestinian people take the hit when Britain promises and gives what it doesn't own?
They took the hit, just as an incredible amount of other people(s) did in the postcolonial period. The Israelis aren't going to move anytime soon; deal with it. You might notice that the more successful Third World areas are those that moved on from their past rather than engage in a futile rage in which civilians lose the most.

And as I pointed out earlier, the blame for the shoddy condition of Palestinians is certainly not solely at the doorstep of Israel. The humanitarian crisis has been prolonged, exacerbated and in many ways caused by the actions of surrounding Arab nations who over the decennia have quite cheerfully used the situation for the own (internal) political gains.

I might also add, I think similar accusations apply to a lot of the motives of foreign backers of Israel.

Edit: Xiahou, sounds like a plan. Build up the wall again and keep them with their supportive Arab brothers. ~;)

Beirut

01-24-2008, 03:17

Sounds like problem solved then. Egypt can surely take care of the oppressed Palestinians that they care so deeply about and with Gaza being abandoned, there will be no one to bother the Israelis. That was easy- should've done it decades ago. :yes:

Egypt should help the Palestinians. So should every Arab country. It is shameful that the Arabs left the Palestinians to suffer under the Israelis for so long just to use them for political gain. With all that oil money they have, the Arabs (Iran as well) should be building schools and hospitals in Gaza by the dozens. Granted, the Israelis will blow them up as soon as they're built, but at least building them is a good start.

Crazed Rabbit

01-24-2008, 03:56

Israel has built a wall to control the people. Period. They want the Palestinians subjegated. Anything less is unacceptable. If the Palestinians "go free", it will show that Israel has been repressing an entire people for generations. Keep them locked up, keep them looking and acting like savages, then they can brutalize them at will and save face with the excuse of, "Oh, but they want to kill us all. Poor, poor us!"

Geez, Beirut. Do you really think all that BS is real?

They built the wall to stop the Palestinians from sending suicide bombers into Israel. And guess what - it works. What have Hamas and Fatah done after the recent unilateral concessions by Israel? Continued the terrorism. What makes you think they'll stop before they kill all the Israelis? If they had the power Israel had over Palestine, they'd kill every Israeli.

And would you please stop calling them filthy Jews.

How nice of you only to slander Israelis as pure evil.

CR

seireikhaan

01-24-2008, 04:45

How nice of you only to slander Israelis as pure evil.

CR
How nice of you to only slander Palestinians as pure evil.

KK

Crazed Rabbit

01-24-2008, 08:13

@kk :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Anyways, for you 'poor palestinians, they just want their land back', you are arguing an near exact example of a logical fallacy:

Jane: "Did you hear about those terrorists killing those poor people? That sort of killing is just wrong."
Sue: "Those terrorists are justified. After all, their land was taken from them. It is morally right for them to do what they do."
Jane: "Even when they blow up busloads of children?"
Sue: "Yes."
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html

:laugh4:

CR

Fragony

01-24-2008, 09:10

Ah wall? omghowcouldthey

Husar

01-24-2008, 09:57

Poor wall. :no:

Rodion Romanovich

01-24-2008, 10:02

'Their land'? Why any more so than third-generation Israelis living there now? Whatever it was sixty years ago, it's not theirs now.

vs

Consider that there are reports of Palestinians tending Olive trees that there ancestors planted and that some of these tress are dying from old age, methinks they may be firmly rooted to their land.

How about a third option: giving Rome/Latium to either the Palestinians or Israelis? The romans have been the major cause of anti-semitism since the roman era (being partially or indirectly involved in almost every single instance of persecution up to the 19th century), they have never been punished for it, and never attempted to repair the damages they caused. I think there's greater chances of forming a successful new state out of nothing in a place where there is a casus belli against the current holders of it, than where it is currently located. This is a struggle between two parties where both have (also from an outside objective point of view) very good reasons to kill the other party, and with both sides having very good reasons to refuse to ever give up. Such a conflict is both impossible to mediate in and impossible to end, no matter how much support is given to either or both parties. Choosing to support either is about as objective as choosing which football team to support in the leagues. Both sides aruge that the other is demonic because of their choice of weapons to fight with, rather than because of the moral substance of their actions, which is quite equal (or else, one side would eventually accept surrendering, as demonisation of an opponent stops working when you realize you are worse AND have suffered greatly - the latter has already happened, the former not). Not to mention that neither side can tolerate being economically weaker than the other after a peace treaty, since they can't trust each other after so many years of fighting, and thus have a very difficult chance of living peacefully next to each other forever, even if peace would come - a bad peace unacceptable to either side would be followed by new war. Neither side could trust a 3rd party neutral peace keeping force from the UN either, since all so-called neutral parties have always supported one side slightly more than the other. The borders are also hard to defend, the terrain favors offense and preemptive striking over defense, making war more likely if trust can not be established. The involvement of the rest of the world is also absurd - both sides get huge sums of money to keep creating more weapons to slaughter each other: a Nash equilibrium putting us back at the same result as if neither side was supported in relative measures, but with more weaponry and death on both sides in absolute measures. That little piece of dirty soil is not worth risking a world war over, not to mention how many neutrals and outside parties that have already been killed by both sides for saying "the wrong things", not to mention the civilians on both sides that die every week. Only way to end the conflict is to find another piece of land for either side, land which is acceptable to the one who receives it, and there's a good excuse to take it from the current holder. Would be nice to see anyone with sufficient power having the guts to do the right thing. As it is now, all who are involved in the conflict are put under too heavy stress to think clearly, and all serious neutral parties trying to mediate have been murdered because on both sides there are smaller militant organizations who don't want peace. Perhaps time to put up an ultimatum, or do as good old Solomon and the baby...

Somebody Else

01-24-2008, 10:08

Jailbreak in Gaza
Does that mean that they're criminals?

HoreTore

01-24-2008, 11:11

That its their persistence in attempted genocide that has led to their current state?

So......

In other words, you mean that a crime made by the few justifies the punishment of the many?

If one guy commits murder, it's OK to jail 15 people?

HoreTore

01-24-2008, 11:12

Does that mean that they're criminals?

Don't have to be criminal to end up in jail ~;)

Geoffrey S

01-24-2008, 12:01

Paradox

01-24-2008, 12:39

I'm glad Hosni Mubarak isn't being an ass about it this time, helping the Palestinians is something that not even our lazy middle-eastern governments care about.

Husar

01-24-2008, 13:59

And as always Israelis become [insert adjective] Jews, murdering suicide bombers become freedom fighters, a debate becomes a series of disconnected attempts at justifying murder on either side, and I become rather bored...
Why do you hate freedom? :inquisitive:
Is that an attempt to stifle free speech? Are we here to entertain you? ~;)

That said, I do think the Palestinians have every right in the world to bomb Israel into the Pacific ocean and after that they have every right to take revenge on the UK who put the Israelis there in the first place, then they should nuke the US for supporting the UK and Israel, then Europe for trading with both and if they still feel a bit sad afterwards they can kill every Asian because they sold everybody their cheap goods. If that doesn't make up for their suffering I'd have to say that they're quite demanding but since I wouldn't exist anymore at that point, I won't have to think about that. :2thumbsup:

seireikhaan

01-24-2008, 14:04

@kk :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Anyways, for you 'poor palestinians, they just want their land back', you are arguing an near exact example of a logical fallacy:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html

:laugh4:

CR
Hmm, yes. Now I think I understand your position if you're Israel.

"CR, sir, we've news that Hamas rebels have fired rockets into Israeli territory and killed eight of our citizens. What do we do?

"Well, its obvious, isn't it? We're going to carpet bomb the area they may have come from and kill about 50 or so Palestinians. Then build an extension of the wall over where a bunch of houses used to be. Oh, and just to make sure they hate us nice and good and can get plenty of sympathizers who'll join Hamas, lets put some sanctions on them so we can starve the rest of them so they have no food or water or gas. That'll teach 'em nice and good to not mess with us!"

:rolleyes:

CR, perhaps you haven't heard, but, believe it or not, the vast majority of Palestinians are just mostly regular people, trying to support their families and earn a decent living. Amazingly enough, they aren't all foaming at the mouth, crazed, trying for a mass extinction of Israel. Yes, there are some crazies, but all Israel's heavy handed policies do is give those crazies more ammo to work with and turn more and more of moderate muslims against them.

Fragony

01-24-2008, 14:21

CR, perhaps you haven't heard, but, believe it or not, the vast majority of Palestinians are just mostly regular people, trying to support their families and earn a decent living. Amazingly enough, they aren't all foaming at the mouth, crazed, trying for a mass extinction of Israel. Yes, there are some crazies, but all Israel's heavy handed policies do is give those crazies more ammo to work with and turn more and more of moderate muslims against them.

Who would have thought, well let me present my masterplan for peace, stop backing Hamas and stop firing firecrackers. chopchop hadihadi nobelprice for peace don't have to wrap it up I'll just take it like that.

Andres

01-24-2008, 14:23

There is no justification for any type of attrocity commited to human beings. It's as simple as that. Instead of every party involved in the conflict claiming to have some sort of moral justification for their despicable behavior, it would be better if all would just stop their madness.

Guess that's too much to ask, eh :shrug:

Stupid, naive Andres who still believes in goodness and simple solutions :no:

Husar

01-24-2008, 14:27

Why do you want to tell other people how to live their life, Andres? :inquisitive:

On a serious note, you're right.

Beirut

01-24-2008, 15:05

Geez, Beirut. Do you really think all that BS is real?

I absolutely believe that the Isreali government see it as in their own best interests to keep the Palestinians a subjegated people.

They built the wall to stop the Palestinians from sending suicide bombers into Israel. And guess what - it works. What have Hamas and Fatah done after the recent unilateral concessions by Israel? Continued the terrorism. What makes you think they'll stop before they kill all the Israelis? If they had the power Israel had over Palestine, they'd kill every Israeli.

No, they built the wall to stop the Palestinians from going into Egypt. If you're speaking about the other wall they built, they built that to keep out attackers and to steal parts of the West Bank.

By the by, what is this ongoing illusion some people have about "The death of every living Jew!" whenever someone talks about the Palestinans having rights? Israel is a military superpower. They have nuclear weapons. They have a world class air force. They have access to the top tiers of military and spy technology. They are masters at infiltration, espionage, psychological warfare, assasination, interrogation (Hello? Torture?), and for the past few decades have had an American Express card with a $30 billion limit and no monthly payments.

All this, and if Joe Palestine, who lives in a bombed out building with no electricity or water is free to go for a walk with his kids in Egypt and buy some ice cream, it's the death of Isreal? C'mon.

How nice of you only to slander Israelis as pure evil.

I thought it was pretty big of me. :smug:

HoreTore

01-24-2008, 15:11

Why do people mix "israelis" together with "israeli government"?

Fragony

01-24-2008, 15:17

I absolutely believe that the Isreali government see it as in their own best interests to keep the Palestinians a subjegated people.

That is true, and it is even more true for their arab 'brothers'.

LittleGrizzly

01-24-2008, 15:27

Anyways, for you 'poor palestinians, they just want their land back', you are arguing an near exact example of a logical fallacy

do you not see the irony here ?

The isrealis subscribe as much to this as the palestinians.

one for you 'poor isrealis they're just defending themselves' you are arguing an near exact example of a logical fallacy

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html

Theres not much morale high ground for either side to claim the one thing i will say is that Isreal as a country can control its actions things like building the wall bombing palestinians is all done from the top down in an organised command, The Palestinians are much less organised and in control of thier activities.

for example in recent times in Ireland with the peace deals trying to deal with the IRA was difficult, even if the leaders of the IRA wanted to halt terrorist activities they couldn't keep everyone in line, most recent example being the bank robbery not long ago this is after the IRA supposedly gave up criminal activities years ago. But the British goverment had to be above this, we could have turned time back 20 years and say look they're doing this, this and this so we have to defend ourselves, but goverments must be held to a higher standard than terrorist organisations.

i do realise hamas is a goverment (technically) but they're army and such like come from thier terrorist group rather than thier goverment.

Beirut

01-24-2008, 15:33

That is true, and it is even more true for their arab 'brothers'.

Agreed. The Palestinians have precious few friends anywhere.

But I'm one of them. :sunny:

ICantSpellDawg

01-24-2008, 15:34

I agree. The Israelis treat the Palestinians like garbage. They took their land. They then took more land. Then they stated settling more land and set up outposts with armed citizens. They treat the Palestinians like wild animals.

Just like the British treated the Irish. I am very sympathetic with the Palestinians. The idea that we (The U.S.) support a country that excludes people based on their Religion is absurd.

It is safe to say that I would break out of the imposed prison if I couldn't buy food.

I'm a friend of the Palestinians also. Just like I supported the I.R.A. (until diplomacy started to work). Diplomacy doesn't work with Israel.

caravel

01-24-2008, 15:38

The simple facts remain: It's the Palestinians land, whether "Palestine" exists or not. The Palestinians are under illegal occupation by people that are technically immigrants, this is why they have the right to rebel. The terrorism is a different thing to the rebellion against the occupation. The terrorism exists as a direct result of the founding of the Israeli state, the occupation and brutal crushing of rebellion. Terrorism doesn't just appear out of thin air and most western countries seem to have very little understanding of it's causes as most are not exposed to it. Few western countries have suffered in the way that Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan have, so unless you're from one of these countries you're unlikely to understand as to why people become terrorists. These countries were pretty much terrorist free until the west got involved and started invading and dropping bombs.

Fragony

01-24-2008, 15:49

Well I am not a friend of the palestinian people, I am too old for imaginary friends the palestinians don't exist they are arabs who migrated there. Nobody owes them anything at all. If people care so much go to Iran where millions of arabs are being deported and live in much worse conditions, this is peanuts. I have zero sympathy for either side, but I absolutily detest everyone who wants to make a point out of it.

Andres

01-24-2008, 15:49

ICantSpellDawg

01-24-2008, 16:02

Do you believe there exists a justification for, let's say, letting explode a bus filled with people, children included?

To make things clear: I don't think either site in this conflict is "right" or "wrong", they have both done despicable things.

Think about it like this.

Guy A is on top of a hill. guy B walks up next to him. Guy A says hi to guy B. Guy B then throws him off of the top of the hill and plants a flag stating that the top of the hill belongs to guy B - not guy A because he never planted a flag. When guy A protests, guy B starts moving down the hill and hitting guy A. Guy B goes ballistic. From the bottom of the hill, guy A starts throwing rocks at guy B. Guy B shoots guy A. Guy A shoots guy B. Back and Forth.

World Policeman comes over and tells guy A and guy B that they are being ridiculous. World Policeman tells Guy B that guy A has a right to stand in peace at the bottom of the hill without being shot. World policeman tells guy A that guy B has the right to stand at the top of the Hill without being shot because guy B has been through alot and his ancestors stood there 2,000 years ago. Guy A protests, saying that it his ancestors stood there for 2000 years and that he was recently thrown off of the top of the hill and punched and kicked.

But world policeman didn't hear Guy A because he was too busy listening to his police radio.

Years and years have gone by. Guy A and guy B both have sons and they are still at it. But now, guys B have bigger guns and guys A are covered in dirt and starving..

LittleGrizzly

01-24-2008, 16:06

the palestinians don't exist they are arabs who migrated there

like the anglo saxons who migrated to the bit of land to the north west of europe and insist on calling it britian

Andres

01-24-2008, 16:07

Think about it like this.

Guy A is on top of a hill. guy B walks up next to him. Guy A says hi to guy B. Guy B then throws him off of the top of the hill and plants a flag stating that the top of the hill belongs to guy B - not guy A because he never planted a flag. When guy A protests, guy B starts moving down the hill and hitting guy A. Guy B goes ballistic. From the bottom of the hill, guy A starts throwing rocks at guy B. Guy B shoots guy A. Guy A shoots guy B. Back and Forth.

World Policeman comes over and tells guy A and guy B that they are being ridiculous. World Policeman tells Guy B that guy A has a right to stand in peace at the bottom of the hill without being shot. World policeman tells guy A that guy B has the right to stand at the top of the Hill without being shot because guy B has been through alot and his ancestors stood there 2,000 years ago. Guy A protests, saying that it his ancestors stood there for 2000 years and that he was recently thrown off of the top of the hill and punched and kicked.

But world policeman didn't hear Guy A because he was too busy listening to his police radio.

Years and years have gone by. Guy A and guy B both have sons and they are still at it. But now, guys B have bigger guns and guys A are covered in dirt and starving..

~:confused:

Is that "yes" or "no" ?

Fragony

01-24-2008, 16:09

Guy B is still alive though, and so is guy A for some reason that defies all logic. I wonder how it would be if it was the other way around. Pitytude fits palestinians like a glove must be comforting in way to be without any prospects nothing like a bit of fatalism.

ICantSpellDawg

01-24-2008, 16:14

~:confused:

Is that "yes" or "no" ?

It didn't make sense? damn.

Yes I support the Palestinians and the children of the Israelis who robbed them of their land.

Fragony

01-24-2008, 16:17

like the anglo saxons who migrated to the bit of land to the north west of europe and insist on calling it britian

Well they went and insist on calling in Palestina but forgot they are with too many to make their precious little desert sustainable. Let's go oldschool, working land, raising cattle, pretty basic things. Never could it work, and it never did most came later. If they want a state they should be able actually be a state, but that would mean have a nice starvation, a little modesty would be splendid.

LittleGrizzly

01-24-2008, 16:20

I wonder how it would be if it was the other way around.

So you wonder how it would be if palestinians had the best land, most of the water, some powerful friends and one the best armys in the world, well lets think on that shall we ?

They wouldn't be anywhere near as angry im sure, full stomach, clean water and a warm bed. Control of thier own destiny lots of people seem to get angry about this one.

So the shoes on the other foot the palestinians have almost everything and the isrealis have nothing, so whats going to happen ? well nothing, they have everything! you only get these extremists wanting thier extermination because they have nothing, some well fed palestinian with a nice job, family and a house isn't going to be intrested in suicide bombing, take away all his prospects and you'd have a person capable of much worse actions

Fragony

01-24-2008, 16:27

So you wonder how it would be if palestinians had the best land, most of the water, some powerful friends and one the best armys in the world, well lets think on that shall we ?

We don't have to think about it because they did have that, quite the badboy that Nasser guy and his bouncing allies. Gambled and lost, not going to feel sorry for them, who pity's Germany after all. So now we will have to keep feeding them because their arab friends that care so deeply about them won't, any state they get will be no more then a zoo.

LittleGrizzly

01-24-2008, 16:55

We don't have to think about it because they did have that, quite the badboy that Nasser guy and his bouncing allies. Gambled and lost, not going to feel sorry for them, who pity's Germany after all. So now we will have to keep feeding them because their arab friends that care so deeply about them won't, any state they get will be no more then a zoo.

you seem to be talking about the arab-isreal war, this is not what i was reffering to.

you said I wonder how it would be if it was the other way around.

which i assumed meant the current situation in reversal rather than the situation some 30 odd years ago. and i'd like to point out that that was arab states rather than palestinians, though palestinians joined up with the invasion AFAIK.

In the current situation reversed i don't think the palestinians would do anything different from the israelis

Fragony

01-24-2008, 16:59

Well then there wouldn't be any jews in current Israel.

Crazed Rabbit

01-24-2008, 17:58

Ice

01-24-2008, 18:01

And as always Israelis become [insert adjective] Jews, murdering suicide bombers become freedom fighters, a debate becomes a series of disconnected attempts at justifying murder on either side, and I become rather bored...

Indeed.

We seem to be seeing eye to on this.

I keep wanting to post replies to both sides on this, but I just stop myself and decide it's really not worth the aggravation.

caravel

01-24-2008, 18:33

Do you believe there exists a justification for, let's say, letting explode a bus filled with people, children included?

To make things clear: I don't think either site in this conflict is "right" or "wrong", they have both done despicable things.
No I don't think there ever is a justification for killing any civilians either through terrorist attacks of any kind or through bombings/rocket attacks as Israel has done in the past in built up civilian areas while trying to take out terrorist leaders.

Hate breeds hate, and this is the problem here. This kind of terrorism gets itself ingrained into the culture and has be pulled out from the roots. The more Israel retaliate and attack the more hatred that is generated and the more young men (and young women) joining the ranks of the terrorist groups.

This problem will never be solved in any other way except through determined diplomacy, all past efforts have fizzled out when Israel have lost patience. Some kind of settlement has to be found. This should take the form of a seperate internationally recognised Palestinian state (whether they're capable to run it or farm it or whatever is not the issue, but they need their own state). There will always be rotten elements within the Palestinian state that will push for return to the old ways. Israel has always been ready to use these incidents as a pretext to reinvade Palestinian areas and renew hostilities. The old claim that the Palestinian Authority is not doing enough to contain the extremists and terrorists is recycled again and again.

Vis a vis the idea that 'The Palestinians are being punished for the crimes of a few' - it is the Palestinians that elected Hamas, who's goal is to destroy Israel.
A flawed argument, as in desperate times equally desperate people will vote for the extremes. Also it was not all of the Palestinians that voted for Hamas in the same way that all Americans did not vote for Bush.

Vladimir

01-24-2008, 19:04

Whoever said genocide wasn't the answer is a fool. Kill the side that is less hostile to us.

Since this thread is based on emotion I might as well throw mine in. Given enough time no one will care.

Mind you none of this would have happen if Israel hadn't handed the land back to its "native" inhabitants.

(Last edit) There is no reason here thanks to the opening post.

doc_bean

01-24-2008, 19:29

Hamas and the terrorists are still supported by the people since Israel is still trying to expand and colonize Palestine further. The wall is often placed deep within what is officially palestine territory and there are several places entirely within palestine territory that are still occupied. Like Hebron, 400 settlers, 1100 soldiers to guard them.
No wonder the Palestians are still andry and still feel like they are fighting a war.

The Israeli government is imo still supported since they convinced the Israeli people that if they weaken for just the tiniest amount, they will all be killed by angry Arabs. Have you ever seen footage of Israeli soldiers guarding the wall ? Most of the ones I saw looked embarresed to be there. They have to be inhuman towards kids (who are not allowed to go the hospital if their papers aren't perfectly in order, even if they're bleeding half to death), and imo it kills most of them inside. I've heard a mother of a young man who was killed in a suicide attack say that she understands where the hatred from the Palestinians come from.

Both sides feel they have to be strong and tough, both sides support cruel and violent regimes. They have more in common than they'd ever want to admit :bow:

Crazed Rabbit

01-24-2008, 21:05

Hamas and the terrorists are still supported by the people since Israel is still trying to expand and colonize Palestine further.

Oh, by making unilateral concessions like withdrawing from Gaza?

CR

FactionHeir

01-24-2008, 21:16

The question is whether it was a strategic move to withdraw from Gaza or a humanitarian one. I would guess the former.

From my reading, it seems that Israel won't really buck and if the government was to do so, their parliament would prevent such a move eventually by electing another. Let's face it, there are extremists on both sides. In fact, the Israeli (government) will not even let Palestinian refugees to return to their homes because "they would out number us poor Jews and destroy our notion of Jewish state". Well, go figure, drive them off their land and then say they cannot come back because then the occupiers wouldn't be the absolute majority anymore.

Going further, I wonder what would have happened if nations hadn't gone gung-ho blocking Palestine off, cutting aid and supplies after they democratically and in a non-rigged election voted Hamas into power. I imagine if the freedom-loving Western nations had stood by them regardless of their differences, there could be prospects for peace, but unfortunately there are lobbies and certain loud voices that would have caused some to not be re-elected, eh?

Paradox

01-24-2008, 21:47

the palestinians don't exist they are arabs who migrated there

like the anglo saxons who migrated to the bit of land to the north west of europe and insist on calling it britian
You're my hero.

IIRC, those Jews you were talking about, caravel, were in fact Arabs. In Islam, prophet Muhammed kicked the Jews out of Medina to where modern-day Palestine and Syria were, and they settled there. They were rich Arab families who lived peacefully with Muslims at one point. Let's say this war isn't mainly focusing on religion, but the nations themselves, whom did Palestine originally belong to? Arabs? Jews? BOTH! It's just that Isreal were excluded I guess.

This isn't really my field, so I think I've said enough as I don't know much about these subjects.

Tribesman

01-24-2008, 21:51

Gaza is an independentally controlled area. It's Palestine, if you're looking for a Res Publica to assign it to. Israel has no control there.
Complete bollox Don .
If it is an independantly controlled area it would collect its taxes , it would distribute its government revenue , it would have control over its borders , its security and its resources .
Since it has control over none of those and instead it is Israel that has it , how on earth can you claim that Israel has no control there ?

Oh, by making unilateral concessions like withdrawing from Gaza?
:dizzy2:
Rubbish rabbit , utter tripe , agreement is what is needed , not one sided unilateral action .
It wasn't a "concession" Israel made , it was an action it took by itself for its own financial benefit .
Patrolling inside the camp and paying Israeli settlers to live there (and providing extra security for those it paid to move there) was too expensive . They decided it was cheaper to move the patrols to the perimeter instead and move the settlers to where they would take less subsidisation .

Israel didn't 'steal' land from the Palestinians; they bought it
They bought very little land Rabbit , but they did buy some , they were also allocated some and also stole some more .
Even now they are still stealing land , the Israeli high court has said so many many times , even last week it ruled again that the ongoing land siezures are illegal .
If you illegally sieze something it means you have stolen it .
If the Israeli courts say it is stealing land then who are you to claim that Israel doesn't steal land ?

x-dANGEr

01-25-2008, 02:10

The idea in the Palestinian conflict doesn't really revolve around Jews. It revolves around Israel. Palestinian Jews are more than welcome to stay in what is also their land.

Have you ever been to Palestine? West bank? Gaza? If not, I suggest you go there to understand the amount of aggravation the Palestinian people goes through each day. To try and give the "least" idea: Mahmoud Abbas (A person who I think really is bad) needs a permission from Israeli forces to get out of his residence in Ramallah. Go figure how the rest fare. Ahmad Qrei' was held on an Israeli check point/block for an hour and a half on his way to meet and negotiate with an Israeli counter party. Again, go figure how the rest fare.

More on it, Fateh has been negotiating with Israel diplomatically and on peace basis for 15 years. Go look at what they achieved: More colonies, more land stolen/taken, more settlers, more road blocks, more palestinians captured/prisoned, no palestinians released, more palestinian bodies (citizens) and let's not forget less no authority. And you'd ask why would the people elect Hamas.

Vladimir

01-25-2008, 05:40

Another one for your moral relativists out there:

One man's terrorist

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/23/601213.aspx

caravel

01-25-2008, 09:47

You're my hero.

IIRC, those Jews you were talking about, caravel, were in fact Arabs. In Islam, prophet Muhammed kicked the Jews out of Medina to where modern-day Palestine and Syria were, and they settled there. They were rich Arab families who lived peacefully with Muslims at one point. Let's say this war isn't mainly focusing on religion, but the nations themselves, whom did Palestine originally belong to? Arabs? Jews? BOTH! It's just that Isreal were excluded I guess.

This isn't really my field, so I think I've said enough as I don't know much about these subjects.
I made no historical references and certainly no references to "jews" so I think you may be misquoting me or referring to the member you had quoted in that post.

LittleGrizzly

01-25-2008, 14:45

Vis a vis the idea that 'The Palestinians are being punished for the crimes of a few' - it is the Palestinians that elected Hamas, who's goal is to destroy Israel.

You could say the same of isrealis they elect thier goverment and are punished for the actions of it, Most recent isreali goverments seem to have a goal of destroying palestine doing it bit by bit but they don't state it as thier manifesto, Hamas just seem a bit more honest about it....

The terrorists are the government.

i think that could easily apply to both goverments, at least under the definition of both causing terror.

Has Israel done wrong - certainly. But Hamas and Fatah could choose peace, and they do not.

Fatah have had several attempts at peace talks over the years which didn't work out, blame for that can be put on both sides as they are both unwilling to be reasonable, and the blame for that can be put on the populations of isreal and palestine.

They both need to learn that the response to extremism isn't to be more extreme, they need to elect moderates who want peace not terrorists who revel in it, both sets of leaders have thier own reasons for wanting to continue the conflict but even if both of sets of leaders wanted the peace thier repsective populations parliments ect. would reject it.

They should both be cut off from the world forced to wipe each other out or work together, or maybe just round up the extremists from each side and let them wipe each other out and just leave the reasonable citizens who want peace left.

Incase anyone was wondering the reason i seem to end up on the palestinian side is because the palestinians die more than isrealis, isrealis have job's cars houses a fairly comfortable lifestyle whereas the palestinians are poor, the isrealis have the means to agree a peace (an organised goverment controlling the army ect.) whereas the palestinians are not an organised entity and can't stop the aggression as easily.

Both sides feel they have to be strong and tough, both sides support cruel and violent regimes. They have more in common than they'd ever want to admit

completely agree, what i was trying to say but couldn't think how to put it.

You're my hero.

That's got to go in my signature!

Beirut

01-25-2008, 16:04

The terrorists are the government.

When Jewish terrorists who murdered Allied soldiers during WWII became Prime Ministers of Israel (who then complained that the Allies didn't do enough to save the Jews during WWII, figure that one out) they got an American Express card with a $30 billion limit and no monthly payments, unlimited UN support, as well as enough fighter planes, tanks, guns, and bombs to invade Russia twice over

But if the Palestinians have any terrorists in their government, they get "self-inflicted famine" and are left to rot with the women and children in prison camps?

Perhaps the pigs at Animal Farm were right; some are more equal than others.

Fragony

01-25-2008, 16:31

Goverments give what terrorists want every day. It's a tiny piece of land and I say they earned it by now. What can they do, Palestina is a very modern weapon it's publicity. If they do nothing they will be labeled as ripe, and if they act they are nazi's. There is nothing you can do the right way there I think.

Husar

01-25-2008, 16:41

It's a problem of indoctrination in both cases I think. I've seen this palestinian father inspiring hate in his kid by showing him how the bulldozers destroyed their house and telling his son to hate Israel for that and then we had this video here of Israelis kids throwing stones at palestinian schoolchildren while police only seemed to stop them from doing much worse.
Seems pretty obvious they both teach their kids from a young age who they have to hate and this way it is rather unlikely to end.
Have to say though if they like it that way, fine with me, they can both bomb eachother to hell and I'm only sorry for those who try to make peace but don't get anywhere among all those nutters. I'd say time to go elsewhere but I guess some can't get out of there easily or are hindered by irrational patriotism or whatever

Crazed Rabbit

01-25-2008, 16:52

When Jewish terrorists who murdered Allied soldiers during WWII became Prime Ministers of Israel (who then complained that the Allies didn't do enough to save the Jews during WWII, figure that one out) they got an American Express card with a $30 billion limit and no monthly payments, unlimited UN support, as well as enough fighter planes, tanks, guns, and bombs to invade Russia twice over

And how many PMs in the more recent past have done that? Not many - they've stopped. Imagine that. But I guess you need to look far back to impugn the Israeli leaders.

And how many billions have been given to the Palestinians over the years in 'aid' and form the UN?

And a big ole LOL at your 'Unlimited UN support'. Perhaps we're talking about different UNs - The one in my world constantly passes anti-Israel resolutions.

blame for that can be put on both sides as they are both unwilling to be reasonable

NO, it can be put on the Arafat and the other leaders who planned the second intifada before Sharon's visit to the Wailing Wall.

How in the world can you gain peace when one side wants war?

CR

doc_bean

01-25-2008, 16:54

Seems pretty obvious they both teach their kids from a young age who they have to hate and this way it is rather unlikely to end.

Wasn't the same thing true for Northern Ireland though ?

Admittedly, I don't know the situation there now, but it seems to be going better than a decade or so ago, at least.

Don Corleone

01-25-2008, 17:01

ICantSpellDawg

01-25-2008, 17:11

For the umpteenth time, Northern Ireland does not equate to the question of Israel/Palestine.

The IRA were not seeking the destruction of the United Kingdom and the extermination of all ethnic Englishmen worldwide. Hamas has publicly declared exactly that.

If you only looks at Northern Ireland you are missing the overarching point.

The IRA was seeking the destruction of ALL English occupation of their lands - much akin to the Palestinians.

It just happens that the entirety of Israel occupies their lands - hence the understandable difference.

Plus, the I.R.A. made quite a few attacks in Britain itself - Pubs, Harrods, government buildings, etc.

I see the two situations as very similar. Obviously there are differences of how they think they will do it based on culture, politics, time elapsed from the start of the affront etc- but the concept is the same

Fragony

01-25-2008, 17:22

How in the world can you gain peace when one side wants war?

Ya. Can't meet their demands because that whould be to stop existing. That isn't a very sound base for dialogue. But it isn't just the palestinians who want war for whatever reason seems to be pretty common, but Israel doesn't really desire peace as well because they are an army with a state.

caravel

01-25-2008, 17:50

Just as the IRA did not represent all of Irish Republicans, Hamas does not represent all of Palestinians. The reason why the Northern Ireland situation is better is because something was actually done about. Diplomacy. It'll take a long time to heal entirely and there will be some that will never forget but it's now on it's way.

The Palestine issue is indeed different. The British mainland was attacked by IRA terrorists and British citizens and military personnel in Northern Ireland were also attacked. The difference is that the UK didn't simply send bombers over and flatten a few houses in residential areas in the hope of killing one or two ringleaders nor did they impose any kind of sanctions on republican areas. In fact if it had employed heavy handed and brutal Israeli style tactics against republicans it would have faced international condemnation, especially from the US. The question is: Why can Israel do this and seemingly get away with it?

Israel needs to start treating the Palestinians as human beings then maybe the Palestinians will start responding like human beings? If the Israelis are such a civilised people they should start behaving in a civilised manner. They should start behaving like real jews: Wise, friendly and peaceful people.

This is one fundamental some of you simply cannot grasp. Don't look at terrorism as the problem look at it as the symptom. If you chain, starve and beat the dog, eventually when you least expect it the dog will break free and recalling the misery you have caused it will wreak it's bloody revenge upon you. The dog will not sit down and think "master is beating me because I'm a bad dog and now that I'm free, I should realise that I'm bad and try to be a good dog".

Again terrorism isn't something that just happens because people come from a certain country or happen to have a certain religion, it occurs as a direct result of occupation, persecution, oppression etc. Iraq for example was terrorist free until the Americans and British arrived on the scene. Palestine had no terrorist problem until the founding of the state of Israel. A people that cannot hope to win an open war against an occupying force that has both military superiority and strong outside support will always turn to paramilitary operations. In this way you will find that Northern Ireland is the same as Palestine.

-Edit: And TuffStuffMcGruff is right.

Beirut

01-25-2008, 18:00

And how many PMs in the more recent past have done that? Not many - they've stopped. Imagine that. But I guess you need to look far back to impugn the Israeli leaders.

Oh, I think a few of the more recent are impugnable as well. Mr. Olmert's savagery in Lebanon hasn't been forgotten. Canada certainly hasn't forgotten, Israeli forces killed a few of our civilians too. (Not to mention the murder of one of our UN Peacekeepers. But we're not supposed to talk about that. Shhh!) Hell, as far as I know, Israel has killed more Canadians than the Palestinians ever have (have they killed any?) but we still deal with them but not with the Palestinians. We must be as stupid as everyone else.

By the by, weren't the the terrorists who became Israeli leaders the same guys who, as Israeli PMs, helped apartheid South Africa develop nuclear weapons? Arafat would have to rise from the dead and destroy an entire universe of orphans and pregnant nuns to reach that level of egregious stupidity and callousness.

So we can deal with an Israeli government that was run by terrorists and helped the international version of the KKK get The Bomb, but we can't even talk to the Palestinians? We're supposed to let them starve and rot and die and until they bend to our awe we can't even talk to them?

It's insane!

There's a poem in this somewhere.

FactionHeir

01-25-2008, 18:17

And how many PMs in the more recent past have done that? Not many - they've stopped. Imagine that. But I guess you need to look far back to impugn the Israeli leaders.

And how many billions have been given to the Palestinians over the years in 'aid' and form the UN?

And a big ole LOL at your 'Unlimited UN support'. Perhaps we're talking about different UNs - The one in my world constantly passes anti-Israel resolutions.

Lets see, I don't recall any anti-israel resolutions that actually passed in the last decade or two. Actually, I think they were all vetoed by Israel's big brother. There may have been the one or two oh-so-carefully-worded reprimands that didn't even read like one that managed to get passed the big brother.

As for Palestinians getting more aid, I think the didn't get all that much more aid than Israel got from outside the UN. All they are getting are funds, food and medication. Israel is getting weapons (including of mass destruction), technology, funds and western media support. And for the amount the Palestinians are getting in excess, you probably could understand it as they don't have any economy to speak of nor trade, both due to Israeli blockade and constant bombings to destroy infrastructure and kill or kidnap political leadership. In fact, most the aid has to go by Israel and quite a bit has been blocked and frozen. Israel on the other hand has a strong economy supported by the outside and no such blackades imposed on it. With most their citizens very well off economically, they wouldn't exactly be eligible for aid, eh?

How in the world can you gain peace when one side wants war?

I think the Israelis got rid of every of their PMs so far who openly wanted true peace, rather than a ceasefire with vast limitations imposed on their Palestinian prisoner ghetto. I think the reasoning was "not hardline enough" or negotiates with terrorists". Go figure. The Israeli gvt doesn't want peace on equal or near equal footing while the Palestinian gvt actually might. Of course neither side's military seemed to be under full control.

As for the general feeling that Palestinian militants are terrorists because they attack civilians, I will reiterate what I said in the past:
How likely is it for them to get close enough to an Israeli squad with their own limited and primitive weaponry and intelligence? I think they are more likely to get killed 9 out of 10 times trying that. So basically the only way for them to fight back is long range attacks (which with primitive weaponry obviously won't be accurate nor devastating) and bombings. I imagine they would rather target the Israeli army with them if they could, but point is they can't.
If you were to give the Palestinian militants the same technology and weaponry and training the Israeli military had, I doubt you would see them blowing up or shooting non combatants.

On another note, I fully agree with caravel's post. Well balanced and eloquent. :bow:

Fragony

01-25-2008, 18:18

This is one fundamental some of you simply cannot grasp. Don't look at terrorism as the problem look at it as the symptom.

No it's a method, and that could just be the problem.

caravel

01-25-2008, 18:35

No it's a method, and that could just be the problem.
I don't hold to the organised terrorism theory where there is a centralised administration and several satellite operations controlling "cells". Experience shows that this is how it works on paper or when politicans want to push the terrorism issue to gain support for taking away even more of your civil liberties. In reality random small groups or individuals commit these acts and a larger group likes to claim responsibility to give the appearance of a centralised control. Suicide bombings are often individual acts or acts carried out by a very small group. There is usually no real plan or chain of command. If it were this organised Israeli intelligence would know their every move. The whole randomness and spontaneity of it is what makes it so difficult to stop.

Fragony

01-25-2008, 18:44

Sorry, but wouldn't it be common sense for the Isreli's to look into it even closer then? No plan no command but these rockets keep landing what would you do. And why you even to do in the first place it isn't like they are lying about thier intentions they want to drive the jews into the sea. Now we all do from time to time but why should they accept it.

Crazed Rabbit

01-25-2008, 18:54

If you were to give the Palestinian militants the same technology and weaponry and training the Israeli military had, I doubt you would see them blowing up or shooting non combatants.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Hamas could target the IDF, they could launch rockets at border checkpoints and army bases, they could send suicide bombers against border guards instead of weddings and restaurants. They can target the military, but they go for the civilians instead.

But they do not; their goal isn't 'resistance' it's extermination, as spelled out in their charter.

Mr. Olmert's savagery in Lebanon hasn't been forgotten.

You make it sound as though they waged war especially more cruelly than other nations. Funny how you are so quick to call a defensive action to stop daily barrages of rockets flying into their cities 'savagery'.

And enough, really, with the conspiracy talk about how we don't 'talk' with the Palestinians - the US has time and again tried to help the peace process by talking to both sides. Yet Arafat decided he wanted a second intifada. If Hamas actually made some steps towards peace - you know, stopping the rockets fired at Israeli cities, maybe change the fact that their charter calls for the destruction of Israel - they could get involved in diplomacy.

Bah. It's all 'See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' of Palestinians with their supporters. Amazing - Arafat started the second intifada when they were on the road to peace, Hamas wants to destroy Israel, but still the excuses flow forth. Amazing.

CR

FactionHeir

01-25-2008, 19:39

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Hamas could target the IDF, they could launch rockets at border checkpoints and army bases, they could send suicide bombers against border guards instead of weddings and restaurants. They can target the military, but they go for the civilians instead.

Of course. That explains why 99% of all those rockets don't actually hit anything . If they really were after extermination as you say and could target their rockets, then you certainly want to tell me why they don't manage to hit a critical target on a daily basis. Those that do hit something seem to at best cause minor injuries for the most part.

So what do you think would help them more, hitting the military bases so there are less Israeli soldiers killing them and less airplanes killing people on the street or hitting a house where maybe a few people live that have little power? I believe their strategy would likely be the former if they had the capability (which they don't)

Similarly, their bombers don't tend to get close enough to the military to inflict any casualties in general. The same way how Iraqi bombers don't get close enough to US patrols before being killed.

Tribesman

01-25-2008, 19:51

The IRA were not seeking the destruction of the United Kingdom and the extermination of all ethnic Englishmen worldwide. Hamas has publicly declared exactly that.:wall:
How many times are you going to attempt repeating that Don ?
What is it now ? at least half a dozen times isn't it .
Do you want to go through it all again or are you going to remember that you are actually talking crap .
BTW the IRA/IRB were seeking the destruction of the United Kingdom ..... and they got it .:book:

their goal isn't 'resistance' it's extermination, as spelled out in their charter.
Oh look someone that hasn't read their charter , but thats OK , don't feel bad about it . Don has read it but still makes the same mistake .

Funny how you are so quick to call a defensive action to stop daily barrages of rockets flying into their cities 'savagery'.

Actually the period before the invasion was relatively quiet , no daily barrages or such like , perhaps you imagimned that part .
The "savagery" of the Israeli government was that despite being signatories to several treaties saying they wouldn't do nasty things they did nasty things .
The worst of which was declaring that no civilians existed . If you declare that no civilians exist in an area where you know they exist and also declare that you are going to eradicate all persons in the area then you have just done something that equates with the imaginary extermination clause in the Hamas charter...the difference being that the Hamas declaration is imaginary and the Israeli one was very real .

Beirut

01-25-2008, 20:38

You make it sound as though they waged war especially more cruelly than other nations. Funny how you are so quick to call a defensive action to stop daily barrages of rockets flying into their cities 'savagery'.

The savagery was the targeting of civilians and the wrecking of the country from north to south. Neither was required but both were exercised with great skill. The Israeli response to the rocket fire was not a series of precision strikes against military targets, but a scorched earth policy against an entire country and its civilian population.

And enough, really, with the conspiracy talk about how we don't 'talk' with the Palestinians...

It is a conspiracy. Israel has used every possible means for decades to dehumanize the Palestinians and to stop anyone from publicly supporting them. In Canada, our govenment is falling all over itself toeing the Israeli line, it's embarrassing. Hamas has been declared an illegal organization and you can be put in jail for supporting them. Over and over our government supports Israel at every turn and says that the Palestinians are persona non grata on the planet until Hamas is gone. I'm not saying that we have to like Hamas, but we sure as shoot have to talk to them.

Bah. It's all 'See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' of Palestinians with their supporters.

Oh, I think there's enough of that mindset to go around for both sides.

To get back to the point, the reason the Palestinians had to blow up the wall and break into Egypt so they could buy food is precisely because everyone in the west is toeing the Isreali line and not helping the Palestinians. As for the other Arab countries and Iran, they should be ashamed. They have acted without conscience or feeling towards the Palestinians. Their behaviour is inexcusable.

Vladimir

01-25-2008, 20:38

Iran (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,325452,00.html).

Crazed Rabbit

01-25-2008, 20:41

Of course. That explains why 99% of all those rockets don't actually hit anything . If they really were after extermination as you say and could target their rockets, then you certainly want to tell me why they don't manage to hit a critical target on a daily basis. Those that do hit something seem to at best cause minor injuries for the most part.

That's because the rockets and their aiming skills are bad.

So what do you think would help them more, hitting the military bases so there are less Israeli soldiers killing them and less airplanes killing people on the street or hitting a house where maybe a few people live that have little power? I believe their strategy would likely be the former if they had the capability (which they don't)

They don't even target the military. Perhaps you should ask why they do aim for civilians instead of the military. You need to challenge your assumption they don't have the capability to target the military.

Similarly, their bombers don't tend to get close enough to the military to inflict any casualties in general. The same way how Iraqi bombers don't get close enough to US patrols before being killed.

Really? I do seem to recall suicide bombers being caught at the border and blowing themselves up, killing IDF soldiers. But the suicide bombers always try to get into Israel to kill civilians, which is harder than merely walking up to a border checkpoint and blowing one's self up when the soldiers check your papers.

EDIT:

The Israeli response to the rocket fire was not a series of precision strikes against military targets, but a scorched earth policy against an entire country and its civilian population.
*rolls eyes*
Hezbollah hid their rocket sites near schools and hospitals, just to give that impression.

It is a conspiracy.
Really? Cuz we always seem to talk with them for the road map to peace. You notice how people in the west bank aren't starving? Hamas, as has been said, is not all the Palestinians, and just because we do not talk to them doesn't mean we don't talk to Palestinians (like, oh, Fatah, aka Hamas lite). Funny you don't quote my whole remark.

CR

Myrddraal

01-25-2008, 21:04

for example in recent times in Ireland with the peace deals trying to deal with the IRA was difficult, even if the leaders of the IRA wanted to halt terrorist activities they couldn't keep everyone in line, most recent example being the bank robbery not long ago this is after the IRA supposedly gave up criminal activities years ago. But the British goverment had to be above this, we could have turned time back 20 years and say look they're doing this, this and this so we have to defend ourselves, but goverments must be held to a higher standard than terrorist organisations.

The Palestinians have systematically violated the agreements they have reached with Israel. They started this current cycle of violence.

So this is all because "They started it!"

This debate seems to be becoming more and more polarised as we go. Reconciliation doesn't come from blaming the other guy.

Beirut

01-25-2008, 21:11

This debate seems to be becoming more and more polarised as we go. Reconciliation doesn't come from blaming the other guy.

Indeed. I am as much to blame as anyone for furthering that style of postation. :shame:

Suffice it to say, I'm just glad my buddies in Gaza are enjoying a few days of freedom.

Xiahou

01-25-2008, 21:27

The same way how Iraqi bombers don't get close enough to US patrols before being killed.Now that's interesting. I thought we lost over 3000 soldiers- many of them to homemade bombs. :no:

As to the Israelis and Palestinians, I can't help but think that had the surrounding countries actually took responsibility for their citizens that were in the territories they lost in a war we wouldn't be having this problem. I also think that had Israel acted like proper conquerors and kicked out the muslims living in the captured territory at the time, we also wouldn't be having this problem. :shrug:

Vladimir

01-25-2008, 21:55

Sorry Axman, not even the Post agrees with you:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/23/AR2008012303327.html

THE HAMAS movement provided a dramatic illustration yesterday of its ability to disrupt any movement toward peace between Israelis and Palestinians. As tens of thousands of residents of the Gaza Strip surged across the border into Egypt, Hamas security forces directed traffic; earlier, they stood by as organized groups of militants blew up the fence along the previously sealed border. As Hamas no doubt expected, the government of Egypt greeted this illegal invasion with a quick surrender: President Hosni Mubarak announced that Gazans would be allowed to shop in Egypt because they "are starving due to the Israeli siege."

In fact, as Mr. Mubarak well knows, no one is starving in Gaza -- though food, fuel and cigarettes are much cheaper across the border. Israel closed its border with the territory and disrupted power supplies over the weekend in response to a massive escalation of Palestinian rocket launches from Gaza at nearby Israeli towns -- between Tuesday and Saturday last week, some 225 rockets were aimed at the town of Sderot, where more than 20,000 Israelis have been relentlessly terrorized. Hamas took advantage of the blockade first by arranging for sympathetic Arab media to document the "humanitarian crisis," then by daring Egypt to use force against Palestinian civilians portrayed as Israel's victims. Its ultimate goal, stated publicly yesterday by Damascus-based leader Khaled Meshal, is to force Egypt to permanently reopen the border in cooperation with Hamas; that would greatly diminish Israel's ability to respond to rocket attacks with economic sanctions, and it would undermine the rival Palestinian leadership of Mahmoud Abbas

Beirut

01-25-2008, 22:07

Sorry Axman, not even the Post agrees with you:

I'm sure very few people agree with me. And to be honest, I don't care.

When I see someone suffering, illegally imprisoned, without friends, treated as less than human because of their skin colour or religion or nationality, that's my cue to speak up no matter how wrong the rest of the world says I am.

My mother liked that about me. :sunny:

Vladimir

01-25-2008, 22:15

I'm sure very few people agree with me. And to be honest, I don't care.

That's cool. :2thumbsup:

When I see someone suffering, illegally imprisoned, without friends, treated as less than human because of their skin colour or religion or nationality, that's my cue to speak up no matter how wrong the rest of the world says I am.

So why did you open this thread?

caravel

01-25-2008, 22:23

Sorry Axman, not even the Post agrees with you
Ah well, that's in then thread closed! American newspapers are absolute gospel after all... :inquisitive:

Vladimir

01-25-2008, 22:35

Ah well, that's in then thread closed! American newspapers are absolute gospel after all... :inquisitive:

Especially if the journalists are black. :yes:

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-25-2008, 22:42

Now that's interesting. I thought we lost over 3000 soldiers- many of them to homemade bombs. :no:

Weren't the majority of those deaths caused by car bombs, ambushes, or enemy IEDs, not necessarily suicide bombs?

KrooK

01-25-2008, 23:10

Jews have what they wanted. Now they can control Gaza (maybe not officially but they can always shot some rockets) and they don't have to pay for that.

FactionHeir

01-25-2008, 23:34

Weren't the majority of those deaths caused by car bombs, ambushes, or enemy IEDs, not necessarily suicide bombs?

What he said

x-dANGEr

01-25-2008, 23:50

NO, it can be put on the Arafat and the other leaders who planned the second intifada before Sharon's visit to the Wailing Wall.

Planned? Do you know what "intifada" means? Look it up.

Ya. Can't meet their demands because that whould be to stop existing. Fateh never had that demand. At least not in the last 15 years.

.. their goal isn't 'resistance' it's extermination, as spelled out in their charter.

Like their rockets "exterminate" people. Lol.

Yet Arafat decided he wanted a second intifada.
Lol x2.

If Hamas actually made some steps towards peace - you know, stopping the rockets fired at Israeli cities, maybe change the fact that their charter calls for the destruction of Israel - they could get involved in diplomacy.

I'd call for the destruction of a country that occupies my land, and kills my wife and children, and makes living hard enough for who's left. But I'm not the Palestinian PEOPLE, neither is Hamas.

Bah. It's all 'See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' of Palestinians with their supporters. Amazing - Arafat started the second intifada when they were on the road to peace, Hamas wants to destroy Israel, but still the excuses flow forth. Amazing.
It's not funny anymore. Arafat didn't start the intifada.

They don't even target the military. Perhaps you should ask why they do aim for civilians instead of the military. You need to challenge your assumption they don't have the capability to target the military.

Cities tend to be quite bigger than Millitary posts, figure they'd hit something here. And.. You're expecting a palestinian rocket to hit a Millitary post? An Israeli one? Don't they have some counter stuff for the most primitive kind of "put some gunpowder in an iron shell then light it"-rockets?

Really? Cuz we always seem to talk with them for the road map to peace. You notice how people in the west bank aren't starving? Hamas, as has been said, is not all the Palestinians, and just because we do not talk to them doesn't mean we don't talk to Palestinians (like, oh, Fatah, aka Hamas lite). Funny you don't quote my whole remark.

I guess all your talk then is worthless, and then effortless to begin with. (PS. Look at what Fateh gained from "talking" with you, in my last post. If that's "talking" and that's supposed to fix it: lol.)

Its ultimate goal, stated publicly yesterday by Damascus-based leader Khaled Meshal, is to force Egypt to permanently reopen the border in cooperation with Hamas; that would greatly diminish Israel's ability to respond to rocket attacks with economic sanctions, and it would undermine the rival Palestinian leadership of Mahmoud Abbas
Bull. Khaled Meshal isn't "Damascus-based", and didn't say any of that. Kudos for understanding arabic, and watching the meeting.

.. where more than 20,000 Israelis have been relentlessly terrorized.Well, they did fire those rockets with more than 100,000 (don't have the exact number, neither an idea of the number, it must be bigger than this) palestinians killed, and some tens of thousands prisoned illegally for tens of years. Poor Israelis.

Btw: I'd be happy with a fair peace agreement (not saying or admitting in any way that "peace" would be "just"... that would be giving palestinians their lands back), but really, I don't see that happening with the current, former and ever actions of the Israeli government. Before the second Intifada, there was a good chance of peace happening. But Israeli government had to ruin that, and nothing was better than using one's religion to do that, especially when most of the "west" would not be able to relate to it, and thus consider it "in-valid" as a response to that action, one way or another. And so, they did what could only be interpreted as "swearing" (PS. trying to use the lightest word I can find. But I can assure you it's much worse) at the muslim nation. And believe me, if was possible, that Intifada would've been from every muslim in the world, not only those in Palestine.

Tribesman

01-26-2008, 02:08

They don't even target the military.
Yes Rabbit , neither do they target the police, the border police or the government .
Its easy to rip into Hamas using facts that are actually true Rabbit , why don't you try it once in a while :coffeenews:

Hezbollah hid their rocket sites near schools and hospitals, just to give that impression.

It doesn't matter where they hid them because Israel declared that there were no civilians .

Really? Cuz we always seem to talk with them for the road map to peace. You notice how people in the west bank aren't starving? Hamas, as has been said, is not all the Palestinians, and just because we do not talk to them doesn't mean we don't talk to Palestinians (like, oh, Fatah, aka Hamas lite). Funny you don't quote my whole remark.

Thats funny , when Abbas was appointed as negotiator for the road map talks they wouldn't talk to him , apparently he was a real dodgy charachter who represented suicide bombers...once his party lost the election they suddenly call him the face of reason that they can talk to:dizzy2:

Incongruous

01-26-2008, 09:52

I have to give it to the Israeli's for making the biggest and best (or worst) concentration camp in history.
Hmmm since Nazism cannot be used here may as well just call it racism legitimised.

Oh no but. that's right Jews went through so much 60 years ago, so we should just heap the punishment on the Arabs of Palestine.
Or, god it happened ages ago they need to let go and accept it, hmmm wait a sec!

Unfortunate for our governments when they just won't shut up and leave or die slowly.

But it don't matter, they are just terrorists after all...

I sadly doubt that much will happen in the next half century, but maybe in 70 Israel will be forced to concede it's shame, it's un-fading shame.
Here's friecken hoping the West get's a spine sooner!

Incongruous

01-26-2008, 10:02

Vis a vis the idea that 'The Palestinians are being punished for the crimes of a few' - it is the Palestinians that elected Hamas, who's goal is to destroy Israel.

It's not a few crazy people launching the rockets into Israel. It is the government the Palestinians chose for themselves. The terrorists are the government.

Israel didn't 'steal' land from the Palestinians; they bought it and Israel was one country out of several formed from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire.

The Palestinians have systematically violated the agreements they have reached with Israel. They started this current cycle of violence.

Has Israel done wrong - certainly. But Hamas and Fatah could choose peace, and they do not.

CR

Israel was created by war and ethnic expulsion, nothing more.
What on God's Green Earth are you reading?

So the Arabs were like "Oh yeah just take our land that's fine, oh you'll pay for it by allowing us water and electricity, what more could we ask for?!"

Isreal has done wrong? Israel only escaped having it's leader being judged a mass murderer because of the U.N's weakness.
Wrong is the light side of that evil.

Redleg

01-26-2008, 23:54

Israel was created by war and ethnic expulsion, nothing more.
What on God's Green Earth are you reading?

This is incorrect - Israel was a mandate by the United Nations. Now the outcome of Israel is something else - but before making such a bold claim and critizing someone of what they are reading - it would help if you actually espoused the facts as they are.

So the Arabs were like "Oh yeah just take our land that's fine, oh you'll pay for it by allowing us water and electricity, what more could we ask for?!"

Read up on the Zionist plans before the mandate, and the fighting that happened because of that. Its rather a pitful and sad history concerning that region of the world. One would ask why haven't the Arab nations surrounding Israel done more to help the Palestine cause then the bare surface support that is given. Look at what Jordan did to the Palenstine refugees. Again Isreal and the Palenstine issue is more complex then a simple statement.

Isreal has done wrong? Israel only escaped having it's leader being judged a mass murderer because of the U.N's weakness.
Wrong is the light side of that evil.

Which Prime Minister? You might want to check into that one just a tad, you might be surprised. Then again what about the leaders of the countries around Israel - are they all knightly saints?

These questions are purely rethorical since I happen to know the answer to many of them alreadly. My point is having such a hard stance against Israel leaves one open to ignore the problems caused by the zealots that are on b oth sides, and the zealots that also encourage them from outside.

I am not a fan of either side. The bloodshed will not end in Israel until everyone has bleed enough to scream quit - or one side is completely destroyed.

The Israel Mandate will be viewed in history as the greatest failing of the United Nations and the event that set the conditions for world wide conflict.

Tribesman

01-27-2008, 00:16

This is incorrect - Israel was a mandate by the United Nations. Now the outcome of Israel is something else
True , if you note that Israel as mandated has never existed .
Is that what you mean by "outcome" Red?

Which Prime Minister?
At a guess I would say he is on about Sharon , in which case his conlusions ......
Israel only escaped having it's leader being judged a mass murderer because of the U.N's weakness.
......are incorrect .

Again Isreal and the Palenstine issue is more complex then a simple statement.

I like that , if you take it and apply it to
Look at what Jordan did to the Palenstine refugees. with a few changes into look at the deal Jordan did with Israel before they went to war "for the Palestinians" .

caravel

01-27-2008, 01:44

Marshal Murat

01-27-2008, 02:01

The 'outside' help solution is not going to work. While it may sound good, it would not work.
I find it helpful to consider the similarities between U.S. segregation and the Israel-Palestine conflict.

The U.S. segregation conflict was an example of general prejudice against African-Americans, both in on a lower level and on the state level.
However, luckily, MLK and his group were intelligent enough to take the peaceful route. They weren't like Malcolm X or the apathetic groups. He worked hard, and was rewarded.

The Palestinians, they followed Malcolm X. They took it to the streets with violence and rockets, and used violence. They need to use nonviolence. Israel cannot be defeated on the battlefield, nor has the guerrilla movement shown any effect. Through non-violence, the Palestinians can unite with the average Israeli and the world at large. To assume that outside intercession will solve this problem is to invite violence and more trouble.

Letter from Birmingham Jail (http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html)

You speak of our activity in Birmingham as extreme. At first I was rather disappointed that fellow clergymen would see my nonviolent efforts as those of an extremist. I began thinking about the fact that I stand in the middle of two opposing forces in the Negro community. One is a force of complacency, made up in part of Negroes who, as a result of long years of oppression, are so drained of self respect and a sense of "somebodiness" that they have adjusted to segregation; and in part of a few middle-class Negroes who, because of a degree of academic and economic security and because in some ways they profit by segregation, have become insensitive to the problems of the masses. The other force is one of bitterness and hatred, and it comes perilously close to advocating violence. It is expressed in the various black nationalist groups that are springing up across the nation, the largest and best known being Elijah Muhammad's Muslim movement. Nourished by the Negro's frustration over the continued existence of racial discrimination, this movement is made up of people who have lost faith in America, who have absolutely repudiated Christianity, and who have concluded that the white man is an incorrigible "devil."

Pannonian

01-27-2008, 02:08

So, all the finger pointing and apportioning of blame aside. What is the solution to the Israel/Palestine Issue? It's easy enough for us to sit here and blame either side but of course in truth both sides are to blame, what most people seem to disagree on is who is the most to blame.

No matter what side you sympathise with and no matter what your reasoning, one fact remains: It's a hopeless situation, and without some kind of outside help it could go on forever, or until one side has been wiped out.
I believe I've suggested quite a few possible solutions, depending on how much effort Israel and the west are prepared to put in (Palestine is a non-entity as far as active solutions go). So take your pick from the many solutions of all shapes and sizes that I've proposed. For me, the idea of fencing off that whole region and letting them sort it out however they want seems quite attractive. Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, and many of those other ME countries offer us nothing that we can't get elsewhere, so we might as well leave them to it and deal with the likes of Saudi and the oil states at need. No sense in wasting money in that region if the protagonists aren't willing to give something back.

Of course, if this hurts business, then an alternative version would be to continue business, but stop all aid of any kind. You want economic aid? Only if you have something to give in return. You want military aid? No chance, if you want to buy basic military equipment, pay for it from your own pocket. There is little reason for our taxpayers to continue throwing money down this bottomless well in the hope that our wishes will come true.

Redleg

01-27-2008, 02:16

True , if you note that Israel as mandated has never existed .
Is that what you mean by "outcome" Red?

Pretty close to what I meant.

At a guess I would say he is on about Sharon , in which case his conlusions ............are incorrect .

true

I like that , if you take it and apply it to with a few changes into look at the deal Jordan did with Israel before they went to war "for the Palestinians" .

Yes I find that part of history rather interesting given that it is often neglected when people discuss Israel.

Vladimir

01-27-2008, 16:59

caravel

01-27-2008, 17:44

Problem is the Jews aren't going to leave voluntarily and their surrounding Arab neighbors like to use Israel as an outlet for their people's anger. Peace in the Middle East is a greater threat to many than the current conflict.
On that point I agree with you, but leaving the so called Arab neighbours out of for now, what else can be done? The Arab neighbours are reluctant to get involved militarily as they probably remember the few occasions they've taken on Israel and lost. In view of this they're not in any position to put pressure on Israel and Israel know this of course. As I see it there are two entities that can really make a difference: Israel and it's main backer the US. The Palestinians as I see it are not in the position to help themselves let alone unify to embrace any kind of diplomatic solution.

Vladimir

01-27-2008, 17:58

On that point I agree with you, but leaving the so called Arab neighbours out of for now, what else can be done? The Arab neighbours are reluctant to get involved militarily as they probably remember the few occasions they've taken on Israel and lost. In view of this they're not in any position to put pressure on Israel and Israel know this of course. As I see it there are two entities that can really make a difference: Israel and it's main backer the US. The Palestinians as I see it are not in the position to help themselves let alone unify to embrace any kind of diplomatic solution.

Part of me believes the US is the only power capable of helping, yet we can't. We've backed Israel for so long and have such a vested interest in its survival that we are (or are perceived as being) too biased in their favor. The current and last Presidents have done a lot to try to alleviate the problem (which always involves Israel retreating) and it hasn't done much good. There was a chance to solve the problem in the 90's but Arafat backed out (another problem about this conflict is people's selective memories). The only thing I like about the elections is the fact that it split the Palestinians and that they're fighting among themselves. If they want their own state let's see if they can run one.

If they want their own state they need to take lessons from Ghandi. He knew how to attack a western government; not through its military but through the emotions of its people. THEN they would be the victims, not belligerents as they currently are.

Crazed Rabbit

01-27-2008, 18:00

The Palestinians can choose a diplomatic solution, they can control their own destiny. Of course, accepting that means accepting that they've chosen terrorism since 2000.

But guess what, if Hamas stopped attacks on Israel, they could start working towards peace, greater freedom for Palestinians. The ball is in their court.

CR

LittleGrizzly

01-27-2008, 18:31

There was a chance to solve the problem in the 90's but Arafat backed out

Im not completely sure but from memory the offer was insulting and would have involved palestinians giving up thier claims on jerusulem and other things, this is why Arafat declared the infidata. By accepting that deal arafat would have given up the palestinians rights to alot.

The Palestinians can choose a diplomatic solution, they can control their own destiny. Of course, accepting that means accepting that they've chosen terrorism since 2000.

I remember everyone saying Fatah are terrorists so we couldn't deal with them and then came along Hamas, oh ok now those Fatah guys aren't so bad but Hamas no thier terrorists, I think the Palestinians should turn round and say we refuse to deal with terrorists either so both sets of terrorists (isrealis and palestinians) could sit there refusing to talk to each other.

But guess what, if Hamas stopped attacks on Israel, they could start working towards peace, greater freedom for Palestinians.

Really ?!

so what was isreal doing before Hamas started attacking ? giggling like a little school winding up the angry dog and then refusing any kind of treatment for the dog on the basis that its angry.

Palestinians just stopping the terrorist attacks would not get them thier land back would not get thier fair share of water and would not even get them an Independent Jerusulem.

rory_20_uk

01-27-2008, 18:33

Like all really "good" conflicts this is based upon religion. Both want the same land more or less "because God said so". Israel doesn't want the West Bank. The Palestinians can have that - so the situation is very different from India.

The USA likes having someone in the Middle East to do its dirty work without being directly responsible.

Many middle east countries like having areas where they can attack Israel without being directly responsible.

To tell Palestinians they have accepted Terrorism is all very well from our nice comfortable seats. No one sends tanks into your neighbourhood and shoots people who protest. And hearing people tell Israel it's not nice might irritate you slightly. Then there's a group who not only appears to fight back, but also seems to help the people (winning hearts and minds) well you might like them.

Saing if Hamas stopped it would all be Roses is either ignorance or bias. There are still illegal settlements. There are still border fences. There are still missile attacks by a country who has no death penalty on its statute books. The death toll is massively against the Palestinians.

BOTH are belligerents. BOTH are guilty. BOTH need to stop.
But Israel suffers a few missiles compared with forming the biggest ghetto in the world.

~:smoking:

Tribesman

01-27-2008, 18:47

But guess what, if Hamas stopped attacks on Israel, they could start working towards peace, greater freedom for Palestinians. The ball is in their court.

Typical rubbish that shows unthinking bias , the ball is in both courts .

Im not completely sure but from memory the offer was insulting and would have involved palestinians giving up thier claims on jerusulem and other things,
It wasn't so much that it was insulting ( any concessions demanded from either side could be viewed as insulting) , the plan was bogus because it refused to deal with core issues , without the core issues being addressed then anything else is simply window dressing .

x-dANGEr

01-27-2008, 19:29

Pannonian

01-27-2008, 19:53

Since I don't really get why are palestinians "wrong" and should give up their lands, can someone please write a post where he/she explains "What to do when a whole stranger nation comes to your land, butchers your people, drives you off your land, lives in your place, and aggravates you for ever after, one that has got the global support?" (As in assuming you all say "resistance" is wrong, I wonder what's your take on it)
The answer is simple. The Israelis should keep their land because there's no way of separating them from it. The Palestinians deserve that land as much as they can get it back. I believe I explained this to you before, a year or so ago, so here it is again. If you want that land back, then why on earth should outside agencies intervene to get them back for you? What would we gain from it? If you can't offer us anything for this favour, why should we do it?

Stop talking about should and should not, and start talking about can and can not. Can you expel the Israelis from their country? If not, why are you complaining?

Vladimir

01-27-2008, 20:32

FactionHeir

01-27-2008, 22:15

The answer is simple. The Israelis should keep their land because there's no way of separating them from it. The Palestinians deserve that land as much as they can get it back. I believe I explained this to you before, a year or so ago, so here it is again. If you want that land back, then why on earth should outside agencies intervene to get them back for you? What would we gain from it? If you can't offer us anything for this favour, why should we do it?

Stop talking about should and should not, and start talking about can and can not. Can you expel the Israelis from their country? If not, why are you complaining?

I think the problem with your argument is that Israel was helped by the outside nations and continues to get vast support from governments abroad to an extent that the Palestinians cannot realistically hope to win by force alone.

However, if you have nothing left and the Israelis send tanks and warplanes over your villages and into your refugee camps, are you just going to sit around and get shot or fight back? Diplomacy is of course an option, but Israel will not negotiate on even terms, which I believe it should if it really wanted peace.

seireikhaan

01-27-2008, 22:16

Stop talking about should and should not, and start talking about can and can not. Can you expel the Israelis from their country? If not, why are you complaining?
Well, I'd imagine they would've had better luck with that if Israel didn't get so much western support in terms of money, weapons, and technology. Militarily, this conflict is competely one sided due to outside factors. Personally, I'm not quite into those "might makes right" arguments, but to each his own.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-27-2008, 22:21

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7211966.stm

Israel will resume supply shipments.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-27-2008, 22:22

Like all really "good" conflicts this is based upon religion. Both want the same land more or less "because God said so". Israel doesn't want the West Bank. The Palestinians can have that - so the situation is very different from India.

I don't know about that. I'd argue religion is being used as an excuse to sway the masses, but the actual people who are in charge behind the scenes have other priorities.

Redleg

01-27-2008, 22:37

Since I don't really get why are palestinians "wrong" and should give up their lands, can someone please write a post where he/she explains "What to do when a whole stranger nation comes to your land, butchers your people, drives you off your land, lives in your place, and aggravates you for ever after, one that has got the global support?" (As in assuming you all say "resistance" is wrong, I wonder what's your take on it)

A correction must be noted concerning weapons - Israel has a core supply within its nation for its weapon development and supply. Yes indeed Israel gets a lot of support from outside sources but it would be a false scenerio to think that Israel could not keep itself armed from within. The cost would distrupt their economic stability but I think Israel would sacrifice that to insure its survival as a nation.

Now to answer x-dANGEr question - minus the global support would be the ingenous tribes of the New World. Ie look what the Europeans did to all the native tribes of the America's and the islands that they decided were theres.

Then there is what the United States itself did to the many tribes after it won its independence from its European overlord.

Have fun with the irony of it.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-27-2008, 23:16

A correction must be noted concerning weapons - Israel has a core supply within its nation for its weapon development and supply. Yes indeed Israel gets a lot of support from outside sources but it would be a false scenerio to think that Israel could not keep itself armed from within. The cost would distrupt their economic stability but I think Israel would sacrifice that to insure its survival as a nation.

Israel recieves money from the outside world, namely the United States, that enables it to keep it's internal arms industry running. Without outside funding, I don't believe Israeli arms would be either as good or as numerous as they are now.

rory_20_uk

01-27-2008, 23:18

I don't know about that. I'd argue religion is being used as an excuse to sway the masses, but the actual people who are in charge behind the scenes have other priorities.

True, but isn't that usually how it goes? And leaders without masses are merely lunatics.

~:smoking:

Pannonian

01-27-2008, 23:21

I think the problem with your argument is that Israel was helped by the outside nations and continues to get vast support from governments abroad to an extent that the Palestinians cannot realistically hope to win by force alone.

I've long advocated the cessation of all aid to all sides, including the Israelis, and leaving them to fight it out or settle down, whichever they wish. Or at least stop all favours, so if they want to buy stuff from us, they'll have to pay full whack without any concessions or credit. Does this mean that we'll be unfairly favouring Israel, as only they can afford to take advantage of this free trade policy? Probably, but as long as they pay us for this privilege, what's wrong with that?

However, if you have nothing left and the Israelis send tanks and warplanes over your villages and into your refugee camps, are you just going to sit around and get shot or fight back? Diplomacy is of course an option, but Israel will not negotiate on even terms, which I believe it should if it really wanted peace.
Nowt to do with us. I might change my mind if either side were inclined to listen to our advice, but since they aren't, we might as well leave them alone.

FactionHeir

01-27-2008, 23:27

I've long advocated the cessation of all aid to all sides, including the Israelis, and leaving them to fight it out or settle down, whichever they wish. Or at least stop all favours, so if they want to buy stuff from us, they'll have to pay full whack without any concessions or credit. Does this mean that we'll be unfairly favouring Israel, as only they can afford to take advantage of this free trade policy? Probably, but as long as they pay us for this privilege, what's wrong with that?

The damage has already been done. Palestine is in ruins and Israel controls pretty much everything there. Its own economy is now one of the world's largest. Changing the policy in terms of neutrality on deals and aid now won't change a lot.
The other thing of course is that no Western nation would sell (read: sell) arms to the Palestinians openly as they do with Israel.

Pannonian

01-27-2008, 23:43

The damage has already been done. Palestine is in ruins and Israel controls pretty much everything there. Its own economy is now one of the world's largest. Changing the policy in terms of neutrality on deals and aid now won't change a lot.
The other thing of course is that no Western nation would sell (read: sell) arms to the Palestinians openly as they do with Israel.
So what do you expect us to do, go back in time and change history? What's past is past, the only thing we can do now is deal with the present. And if my country were to sell arms to Palestine, I'd have no problem with it, as long as they're fairly basic, all paid for with their own money, and they're not receiving any of our tax money as aid. For the latter to be worthwhile, there needs to be economic or political concessions in our favour on their part. Since they have nothing significant of the first, and they're not doing the second, we should cease all spending on them.

rory_20_uk

01-27-2008, 23:48

Pannonian

01-27-2008, 23:57

Without subsidies the Israeli machine wouldn't be able to continue without a much greater part of GDP being spent on it.

Israeli actions anywhere else would have resulted in sanctions, not aid.

But why just leave the Middle East to its own devices, individual interest notwithstanding? Afghanistan is another open sore that is best left to the locals.

~:smoking:
You won't find me disagreeing here, except for one cynical view I've encountered which says that Afghanistan should be kept as the best training ground that the British military can hope for: isolated enough for conflicts, if reasonably managed (eg. not as the Americans are currently doing it), not to spill over elsewhere, locals who are skilled enough to provide a decent challenge, and mad enough never to actually give up, and good, challenging terrain.

rory_20_uk

01-28-2008, 00:01

Now, that's a logic I can understand!

But in that case sod the aid as it's expensive, and increase funding so more of our boys can be shot at.

Speaking of shot at, I'm all for indentured labour from our prison populations. Might scare them to be honest, and let's see them keep contacts in the middle of a war zone.

~:smoking:

Incongruous

01-28-2008, 00:33

If the Western World was to say "it's none of ours!" then it would be the greatest piece of hypocrisy we have yet authored. A rather pathetic excuse, by a region now dominated by pathetic politics.

x-dANGEr

01-28-2008, 00:34

So basically, just to make sure, the answer is along the lines: "Palestinians have the right to resist?!" (And so are not "terrorist scumbags" if they shall do so)

Incongruous

01-28-2008, 00:47

So basically, just to make sure, the answer is along the lines: "Palestinians have the right to resist?!" (And so are not "terrorist scumbags" if they shall do so)

Depends on who you talk to.
For me it's a yes.

Crazed Rabbit

01-28-2008, 06:54

So basically, just to make sure, the answer is along the lines: "Palestinians have the right to resist?!" (And so are not "terrorist scumbags" if they shall do so)

They are when they target civilians. The righteousness of their cause doesn't matter.

CR

seireikhaan

01-28-2008, 07:49

They are when they target civilians. The righteousness of their cause doesn't matter.

CR
So doesn't that make Israel a bunch of "terrorist scumbags" as well?

Tribesman

01-28-2008, 08:30

So doesn't that make Israel a bunch of "terrorist scumbags" as well?:2thumbsup:

Husar

01-28-2008, 10:47

So doesn't that make Israel a bunch of "terrorist scumbags" as well?
No, they target terrorists who happen to be inside droves of hostages civilians.

rory_20_uk

01-28-2008, 11:13

No, they target terrorists who happen to be inside droves of hostages civilians.

Ah, we must be using the American term of "target" here - kill the person you want without trial and anyone in the same area, with ten times the wounded.

Oddly enough the Palestinians aren't grateful for this... :inquisitive:

~:smoking:

Paradox

01-28-2008, 13:06

Meh, who else thinks that the countries mentioned (Afghanistan etc.) should be left alone to solve it's own problems?

Like Mao said: "A nation's problems are better solved by the nation itself" or something like that.

Didn't the people who interfered in this war spark more bloodshed?

Vladimir

01-28-2008, 13:58

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/warner-todd-huston/2008/01/26/reuters-fauxtography-alert-spreading-hamas-propaganda-fake-power

http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2008/01/24/second-draft-examines-another-pallywood-production-gaza-beach-tragedy-exploiting-grief/

Linkage.

LittleGrizzly

01-28-2008, 14:19

from that first link about Hamas faking a power outage

You know, when you see something that just doesn’t look right or sound right, well this might be the case here. As the pictures plainly show it is daylight outside, only a moron could think that somehow these meetings were actually meant to leave the impression it was night out.

Now this struck a chord with me I'm willing to believe Hamas would fake a power outage and willing to believe they could get sympathetic journalists to go along with this, Im really finding it hard to believe they would be so damn stupid, im sure they would have at least made the effort of doing it at night time.

Vladimir

01-28-2008, 20:49

I'm sorry, I've been such a fool. Palestinians have a moral right (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1201367874283&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) to terrorism.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-28-2008, 21:09

So doesn't that make Israel a bunch of "terrorist scumbags" as well?
And America for the (aerial) bombing deaths of civilians in Iraq?

It's so much clearer. Thanks CR. :2thumbsup:

Tribesman

01-28-2008, 21:23

And America for the (aerial) bombing deaths of civilians in Iraq?

No there is a difference .
If America drops a bomb on civilian area then as long as the target was not actually civilians they are collatreral damage .
If Israel drops a bomb on a civilian area and says there are no civilians then the civilians are not collateral damage they are a target .

Beirut

01-29-2008, 00:21

(Something I scribbled today. With apologies. Or not.)

We’re having breakfast with Stalin
And lunch with Mao
But if Hamas comes calling
Please tell them to go
Tell them we’re busy
Having tea with Amin
Or taking long sweaty showers
With Pinochet’s kin
Tell them we’re occupied
Sending arms to the Shah
Or selling bombs to Hussein
And guns to Nicaragua
Tell them we’re polishing nukes
Or testing the gas
But whatever you do
Just don’t let them pass
They’re not our kind of people
They’re killers you see
At least the kind that look bad
On western TV
They suicide bomb
They’re out of their head
They should be civilized
And use cruise missiles instead
It’s all against nature
The way that they kill
They strap on C4
And blow themselves up at will
They’re not even human
They’re just terrorist scum
They don’t use smart bombs like us
They use bombs that are dumb
If they had any conscience
They would kill more like us
Bomb the whole bloody city
Not just one little bus
To kill with good morals
You need technology
You need armies on land
And a navy at sea
You need planes in the air
And satellites too
Before you have any right
To kill like we do
You can’t just go kill
Because the enemy’s near
You need logistics and transports
And expensive gear
You have to do it real modern
You have to do it with style
You have to fill out the forms
You have to find the right file
Killing people is business
It can’t be done on the cheap
There’s profit to be made
When the innocent weep
We’re here to make sales
And protect the corporate line
We make cash when we kill
We sell tanks while we dine
We don’t want the small guys
They’re bad for the buck
They’re bad for PR
And they’re simply bad luck
They’re not one of us
They don’t kill by the rules
They don’t kill like us pros
They kill just like fools
Whether women or children
Who die we don’t care
As long as it’s properly done
With global positioning hardware
People will die in the future
Like they died in the past
Sometimes they die slowly
Sometimes they die fast
But the difference in killing
Whether a city or bus
Is it’s wrong if it’s them
And it’s right if it’s us
We’re having breakfast with Stalin
And lunch with Mao
But if Hamas comes calling
Please tell them to go

Marshal Murat

01-29-2008, 00:35

Get a little bored today, Beirut?

Vladimir

01-29-2008, 00:52

A rather poetic rant, I'll give you that. Now get the limerick thread kick started! :furious3:

Beirut

01-29-2008, 01:15

Get a little bored today, Beirut?

I'm never bored, I just get eloquently useless in the eyes of others. :toff:

Tribesman

01-29-2008, 01:15

I'm sorry, I've been such a fool. Palestinians have a moral right to terrorism.
Come on Vlad , give the full quote about the "moral right", then try and show that Honderich is wrong in what he said .(Don't forget that he supports the establishment of the State of Israel)

LittleGrizzly

01-29-2008, 01:21

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

liked the ryhme

woad&fangs

01-29-2008, 01:42

^^^
Same here.

Crazed Rabbit

01-29-2008, 01:42

So doesn't that make Israel a bunch of "terrorist scumbags" as well?

Are you grouping all the people of Israel together as one?

As for your snarky remark - no, since they don't target civilians. It's Hamas and the other terrorists who hide among the people, just so they can cry about Israel 'targeting civilians' to suckers who buy that line.

And wow, another misguided rant from Beirut as though the reason we dislike Hamas is because of how they kill, not who they kill. :rolleyes:

CR

Vladimir

01-29-2008, 01:47

Come on Vlad , give the full quote about the "moral right", then try and show that Honderich is wrong in what he said .(Don't forget that he supports the establishment of the State of Israel)

This?

"I was shocked to hear Honderich actually say that, 'Palestinians have a moral right to terrorism,'" said Olga Belogolova, a Jewish student from Boston University studying at Oxford for the semester.

Or this?

60. If Pals have the "moral right " to bomb,so has the IRA-and blow up Oxford

Let's see if I get warned for that :sweatdrop:

Sorry, have no idea what you're talking about? Do you mean the election results? Show me where this Honderich supports the established state of Israel.

Tribesman

01-29-2008, 02:25

Ah I see Vlad , you are going on what some dumb student says about what Honderich said without knowing what Honderich actually said .
It is something he has said often so it really shows how dumb that student is as she was "shocked" by it ...it isn't a shocking statement at all , its a simple statement of fact .

Show me where this Honderich supports the established state of Israel.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Show me the "established" State ...there is a reason why countries do not have their embassies in what Israel calls its capital , because that is a matter of dispute whoselegitimacy is not established , they remain in the old capital .

So forget your "established" State as it doesn't actually exist ...what was written was specific and specific for a purpose....the word used was "establishment" .:yes:

As for your snarky remark - no, since they don't target civilians.
Bollox .

It's Hamas and the other terrorists who hide among the people, just so they can cry about Israel 'targeting civilians' to suckers who buy that line.

More bollox :dizzy2: Hey Rabbit , at the opening of the last episode with Lebanon , the Israeli command centre for the Northern Front that was destroyed at the outset of the conflict was hidden where exactly ?
Was it....
In a military base ?
In open countryside ?
In the middle of a Kibbutz ?
Hmmmm...hard one isn't it , it must be 1 or 2 because the Israelis don't hide their military among the civilians do they :oops:

It appears you were saying something about suckers ...due to your unthinking bias you yourself fall straight into that category again and again over the Isreal/Palestine/Lebanon issues .

Crazed Rabbit

01-29-2008, 02:37

It is something he has said often so it really shows how dumb that student is as she was "shocked" by it ...it isn't a shocking statement at all , its a simple statement of fact .

Um, no it wasn't - it was a statement of opinion. Funny how just about anything becomes a 'simple statement of fact' when it suits you. :laugh4:

More bollox
Oh, so Hamas doesn't have any operations placed in the towns and population centers of Palestine?

:laugh4: :laugh4:

CR

Mikeus Caesar

01-29-2008, 02:48

This thread is clearly full of Zionist sympathiser infidels who must be cleansed!

Vladimir

01-29-2008, 02:59

Ah I see Vlad , you are going on what some dumb student says about what Honderich said without knowing what Honderich actually said .
It is something he has said often so it really shows how dumb that student is as she was "shocked" by it ...it isn't a shocking statement at all , its a simple statement of fact .

No, frankly I'm sticking my hand into the ether and seeing what I pull out. It's been a great coincidence that I've found so much good stuff so fast.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Show me the "established" State ...there is a reason why countries do not have their embassies in what Israel calls its capital , because that is a matter of dispute whoselegitimacy is not established , they remain in the old capital .

So forget your "established" State as it doesn't actually exist ...what was written was specific and specific for a purpose....the word used was "establishment" .:yes:

Here you go:

https://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6741/israelpol01jh7.jpg

Big enough that you can even see it through a glass of Guinness; or several in your case. The rest is is subjective Bollox !

https://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6162/urlzs6.jpg

Established 1759. This one's on me.

Boyar Son

01-29-2008, 03:57

@beirut- Theres conventional war for a reason. Whatever doesnt comply to that can be labeled by the U.N. as "terrorism".

And the whole reason for it is that the civs dont get targeted, why it still happens is because of the general preffering the life of his own men rather then the enemy (less casualties for the general), precision of the bomb, the enemy always having civs near them (=bad PR for us later).

Yes but I really dont see a reason to love someone who says "death to America". But I guess the only way to stop him is to treat him fairly, and not as a barbarian.

Beirut

01-29-2008, 04:02

And wow, another misguided rant from Beirut as though the reason we dislike Hamas is because of how they kill, not who they kill. :rolleyes:

CR

Oh, pffffft! At least it had a decent cadence. :beatnik2:

A hypothetical, if I may.

Case A: An F-16 fires a Hellfire missile into a building in Gaza that houses a terrorist. The terrorist is killed along with twenty innocent people.

Case B: A suicide bomber detonates his explosives inside a restaurant in Israel where the Shin Bet are rumoured to frequent. The explosion kills an agent along with twenty innocent people.

Case C: A foreign government targets a non-extraditable war criminal within the United States with a car bomb. The bomb kills the war criminal along with twenty New Yorkers.

If someone said all three acts murdered twenty innocent people, how would you respond? How would you view each on a moral basis? Would all three acts be equal, or is there a difference?

You may, of course, answer this in any way you wish (or not at all), but if you do answer, I would appreciate to know your mind on the matter as opposed to having a discussion on the semantics of the question itself.

Vladimir

01-29-2008, 04:11

F-16's don't fire hellfires.

HAH!

Beirut

01-29-2008, 04:32

F-16's don't fire hellfires.

HAH!

Yes, I'm a boob for writing that. I never said I was smart, just good looking. ~:smoking:

KukriKhan

01-29-2008, 05:25

Yes, I'm a boob for writing that. I never said I was smart, just good looking. ~:smoking:

And one hella songwriter. As soon as I perfect my chord progressions, I think we have a country AND western (see? we're inclusive!) song with your li'l ditty.

Crazed Rabbit

01-29-2008, 05:48

Oh, pffffft! At least it had a decent cadence. :beatnik2:
I didn't say it lacked that. ~;p

A hypothetical, if I may.

Case A: An F-16 fires a Hellfire missile into a building in Gaza that houses a terrorist. The terrorist is killed along with twenty innocent people.

Case B: A suicide bomber detonates his explosives inside a restaurant in Israel where the Shin Bet are rumoured to frequent. The explosion kills an agent along with twenty innocent people.

Case C: A foreign government targets a non-extraditable war criminal within the United States with a car bomb. The bomb kills the war criminal along with twenty New Yorkers.

If someone said all three acts murdered twenty innocent people, how would you respond? How would you view each on a moral basis? Would all three acts be equal, or is there a difference?

B is a case where the target was only rumored to be present. Plus it was an excessive weapon. Seems like it'd be easier to smuggle a pistol instead of a explosive belt.

C doesn't seem like really following the course of justice - you know, trials and all that.

But I see your point. Your hypotheticals aren't that different, morally. But they're only hypothetical.

CR

seireikhaan

01-29-2008, 06:42

I didn't say it lacked that. ~;p

B is a case where the target was only rumored to be present. Plus it was an excessive weapon. Seems like it'd be easier to smuggle a pistol instead of a explosive belt.

C doesn't seem like really following the course of justice - you know, trials and all that.

But I see your point. Your hypotheticals aren't that different, morally. But they're only hypothetical.

CR
Well, maybe its just me, but a missile from an F16 seems a tad excessive as well...And I dunno, I'm not really an expert on whether a pistol would be easier to sneak in, not much personal experience.~;p But I'm glad you're at least picking up and figuring where Beirut(and I) are coming from.

Tribesman

01-29-2008, 08:45

Here you go:

My my thats an old map , but it is sufficient to prove you wrong .
If there was an established state of Israel there would be international borders all round it , solid black lines on that map , there are only two out of four on that map , and as it happens the two that are there are established by treaties that contian clauses that specificaly do not establish the border with the state of Israrel .

Oh, so Hamas doesn't have any operations placed in the towns and population centers of Palestine?

But Rabbit you claimed that its only Hamas and terrorists that do it , you do remember what you claimed don't you , its written down if you forgot .

Um, no it wasn't - it was a statement of opinion. Funny how just about anything becomes a 'simple statement of fact' when it suits you.
If that were the case Rabbit then you would be able to show how the statement is wrong , if it isn't a fact then it must be wrong .

HoreTore

01-29-2008, 08:59

C doesn't seem like really following the course of justice - you know, trials and all that.

Case C happened in the town of Lillehammer here in Norway in the 70's. An innocent guy got shot and killed on the street, with his pregnant wife - because he sort of looked like a terrorist guy. No terrorists were killed, or even present.

Oh, and it was israeli "intelligence" who shot him, if that was unclear. And the agents got protection from the israeli government.

Husar

01-29-2008, 10:37

Big enough that you can even see it through a glass of Guinness; or several in your case.
From what I gather from his profile, Tribes prefers Porter.

Vladimir

01-29-2008, 14:21

My my thats an old map , but it is sufficient to prove you wrong .
If there was an established state of Israel there would be international borders all round it , solid black lines on that map , there are only two out of four on that map , and as it happens the two that are there are established by treaties that contian clauses that specificaly do not establish the border with the state of Israrel .

You have your lines on a map, they have the IDF. Go there and press your claims.

Crazed Rabbit

01-29-2008, 17:13

But Rabbit you claimed that its only Hamas and terrorists that do it , you do remember what you claimed don't you , its written down if you forgot .
What does that have to do with Hamas hiding in population centers? You said, IIRC, that was bollox - are you admitting you're full of ****? :laugh4: :laugh4:

Oh, yeah - show me where I said "only Hamas does it". Remember, don't trust your 'understanding' of English, seeing as you always take one interpretation and treat it as though is the only possible one. :laugh4: :laugh4:

If that were the case Rabbit then you would be able to show how the statement is wrong , if it isn't a fact then it must be wrong .

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

No, silly, if something is an opinion than it is distinguished by not being factually correct or incorrect. An opinion can't be 'wrong'.
:laugh4: :laugh4:

Here, to help you out, is a definition of opinion:

Main Entry: opin·ion Listen to the pronunciation of opinion
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpin-yən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin opinion-, opinio, from opinari
Date: 14th century

1 : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter

Really, I don't expect such blatant absurdities out of you. 'if it isn't a fact it must be wrong'?! LoL!

CR

ICantSpellDawg

01-29-2008, 17:28

CR - check out the casualty rates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#Casualties

In my observation of similar conflicts - the ones with the lower death and injury toll, the better weapons, the better land and the ones who continue to build settlements in the other sides civilian lands are usually the aggressors. The Palestinians always have the option of packing up and moving, becoming second or third class citizens of a Jewish state or staying in sub par lands either inland or walled in from their neighbors under the threat of constant attacks on their sovereignty.

All on land that was theirs until Britain, Israel and the West evicted them.

Good choices all around. Why are they so pissed, are they just crazy from all of the swirly Koranic text reading? We may never know!

FactionHeir

01-29-2008, 18:40

The Palestinians always have the option of packing up and moving, becoming second or third class citizens of a Jewish state or staying in sub par lands either inland or walled in from their neighbors under the threat of constant attacks on their sovereignty.

Fixed that for you ~:)

ICantSpellDawg

01-29-2008, 18:43

Fixed that for you ~:)

Oh right. Thanks

Tribesman

01-29-2008, 19:57

You have your lines on a map, they have the IDF. Go there and press your claims.
awww whassamatter Vlad , did your position fall apart .:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
But hey its OK , having the IDF didn't help Israel with their claims , even having a superpowers backing didn't help , not even when other parties in the dispute recieved billions of US tax-payers money to sweeten the deal , the other parties still put in their get out clause which means it doesn't actually give Israel recognised borders .

What does that have to do with Hamas hiding in population centers? You said, IIRC, that was bollox - are you admitting you're full of ****?
No Rabbit , what you wrote is clearly bollox .

Remember, don't trust your 'understanding' of English
Hmmmmm English ...right
It's Hamas and the other terrorists who hide among the peoplequite simple , plain English isn't it , quite definative , the IDF hide among the people , the IDF are not Hamas , the IDF therefore can only be fitted into the "other terrorist" part .
You really are not doing very well Rabbit , so far in a short space of time you have labelled the Israelis as terrorists for killing civilians and terrorists for hiding among the population .
With a friend like you does Israel really need its other enemies ?
I wrote earlier that what you were putting down was the product of unthinking bias , you really are going out of your way to prove the "unthinking" part .

No, silly, if something is an opinion than it is distinguished by not being factually correct or incorrect.
Oh dear you really are having a bad run of it , you missed out a word , a simple word that makes all the difference , it fits quite snugly between "not" and "being" .
Go on Rabbit put in the missing word and see your point fall apart .

Now what would be really funny is if you could take the quote by Honderich that you are going on about and show it to be wrong ...but I get the impression that you havn't even the faintest idea what the actual quote is that you are writing about .

From what I gather from his profile, Tribes prefers Porter.
Shall I let that go :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Husar , what is Guinness ?
but its OK Vlad made a mistake as well , the picture is clearly a pint in a tulip , a glass of guinness is something else entirely .

Crazed Rabbit

01-29-2008, 21:26

Hmmmmm English ...right quite simple , plain English isn't it , quite definative , the IDF hide among the people , the IDF are not Hamas , the IDF therefore can only be fitted into the "other terrorist" part .

Really?

It's Hamas and the other terrorists who hide among the people, just so they can cry about Israel 'targeting civilians' to suckers who buy that line.

I don't think Israel cries much about themselves targeting civilians. :laugh4:

But go and show me some proof of Israel 'hiding' a base or the like among civilians - not just placing one among civilians - and then using a specific attack on that base as more proof that Hamas and Co. target civilians.

Until then, you're just full of hot air.

.but I get the impression that you havn't even the faintest idea what the actual quote is that you are writing about .

Lol! You mean the one were he says the state of Israel is being run by neo-Zionists? :laugh4: It's his opinion that Palestinians have a moral right to fight against neo-zionism. :laugh4: :laugh4:

All on land that was theirs until Britain, Israel and the West evicted them.

I don't think they were evicted; they left, expecting the quick defeat of Israel in 1948. I dare say the ones who stayed in Israel are better off today.

But I'm glad you're at least picking up and figuring where Beirut(and I) are coming from.
I do, but the problem with your examples is that B never really happens - the suicide bombers just try to take out large groups of people.

CR

ICantSpellDawg

01-29-2008, 21:59

I don't think they were evicted; they left, expecting the quick defeat of Israel in 1948. I dare say the ones who stayed in Israel are better off today.

CR

You don't think that they were evicted?

What would you call Muslims moving into your home and declaring it a mosque? Would that be an inclusive move on their part? Or would it be exclusive?

Now lets say that they started attacking you in your rooms as well. Jewish settlers began terrorist actions long before the Palestinians returned the favor.

Are you really familiar with the circumstances regarding the Jewish diaspora to Palestine, or are you just defending the victims of the holocaust? There is a big difference that I'm not sure many people are capable of realizing without reading about the history (the 1880's to today).

Crazed Rabbit

01-29-2008, 22:12

Well, we know why the blockade was so harsh; the Boston Globe reveals that each person in Gaza requires nearly half a ton of flour, per person, per day!

Over 80 percent of the population of 1.5 million
...
Although Gaza daily requires 680,000 tons of flour to feed its population, Israel had cut this to 90 tons per day by November 2007, a reduction of 99 percent.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/01/26/ending_the_stranglehold_on_gaza/

Wow, what cretins.

Or maybe not - some people have ideas about Hamas' plan for this ridiculous amount of flour:
http://blog.camera.org/archives/2008/01/gazans_fire_up_ovens_to_welcom.html

There's going to be a new strongman in Gaza. That's right. In the name of national unity, Hamas and Fatah have come together and agreed to bring in a third party -- a giant gingerbread man modelled after the Muffin Man's oversized creation in "Shrek II" (himself a close cousin of the towering Stay Puft Marshmallow Man in "Ghost Busters.")

CR

Tribesman

01-29-2008, 22:42

But go and show me some proof of Israel 'hiding' a base or the like among civilians - not just placing one among civilians - and then using a specific attack on that base as more proof that Hamas and Co. target civilians.

Until then, you're just full of hot air.

Silly Rabbit , I already have , its back in the topic on the war on Lebanon :book:

I don't think Israel cries much about themselves targeting civilians.

Hmmmmm...With a friend like you does Israel really need its other enemies ?

Lol! You mean the one were he says the state of Israel is being run by neo-Zionists?
It is Rabbit , without their support the government collapses . If a government cannot function without then then they are running the state . There is much debate within Israel itself about how they are running things , especially in Jerusalem .
So before you give it a "Lol" why don't you drop the unthinking crap for a change ....or is it too hard for ya:stupido3:

It's his opinion that Palestinians have a moral right to fight against neo-zionism.
Poor Rabbit still hasn't read the quote so of course cannot show it to be wrong ..though of course even if he had read the quote he still couldn't show it to be wrong .

Crazed Rabbit

01-30-2008, 05:06

Silly Rabbit , I already have , its back in the topic on the war on Lebanon :book:
I will assume you are lying until you show otherwise.

Or is that too hard for you?
~;p

So before you give it a "Lol" why don't you drop the unthinking crap for a change ....or is it too hard for ya:stupido3:

Poor Rabbit still hasn't read the quote so of course cannot show it to be wrong ..though of course even if he had read the quote he still couldn't show it to be wrong .

I was laughing at your insinuation that I haven't read the quote:

This is that the Palestinians have had and now have another moral right. They have a moral right in all of historic Palestine, including Israel, to their terrorism against the ethnic cleansing of neo-Zionism.

He may state it like it's a fact, but its still his opinion they have that right, and opinion that 'neo-Zionists' are engaged in ethnic cleansing.

You don't think that they were evicted?

No, for the majority I don't think they were.

But for your next post, why don't you list your complete opinion on the whole conflict, including the history of it, who's at fault, who's responsible for the lack of progress towards peace, how Fatah compares to Hamas, and what the solution should be, etc., etc.

CR

ICantSpellDawg

01-30-2008, 05:38

I will assume you are lying until you show otherwise.

Or is that too hard for you?
~;p

I was laughing at your insinuation that I haven't read the quote:

He may state it like it's a fact, but its still his opinion they have that right, and opinion that 'neo-Zionists' are engaged in ethnic cleansing.

No, for the majority I don't think they were.

But for your next post, why don't you list your complete opinion on the whole conflict, including the history of it, who's at fault, who's responsible for the lack of progress towards peace, how Fatah compares to Hamas, and what the solution should be, etc., etc.

CR

Long story short I don't believe that there should be a "Jewish State". It should be a state with Jews, Christians and Muslims. This failed to work in Lebanon because Israel exists and made it into a battleground. Every other nation with sizable minorities are stressed to be inclusive and until Israel realizes that the only possibility for them to exist is as a Jewish-majority state, like every other "Christian" nation has been forced to become. Their own xenophobia and "chosen ego" infuriates those whose land they have made ethnically inhospitable. In turn, the radicalization of the Islamic countries, due in part to the double standards of the British Empire and western nations, needs to be calmed down as long as "Israel" becomes more inclusive. This is an unlikely outcome, but it is one that much eventually come to pass for peace to be realized

The truth is that Israel had the opportunity to build a nation and chose to do it in an inequitable way - they have enjoyed the consequences ever since.

Nation building, double standards and xenophobia caused and fuels the issue.

Tribesman

01-30-2008, 08:42

I will assume you are lying until you show otherwise.

Since it has already been shown that says a lot about your assumptions .:yes:

He may state it like it's a fact, but its still his opinion they have that right, and opinion that 'neo-Zionists' are engaged in ethnic cleansing.

In the context it is a fact and as for the "opinion" of ethnic cleansing , its their stated policy and their practice so that is also a fact . A fact that extends not only to non-Jews , but also to Jews who are of the wrong flavour . You really should follow events In Israel more , it may stop you making a fool of yourelf so often on the subject .

Banquo's Ghost

01-30-2008, 08:58

Gentlemen,

Whereas long experience teaches us that the Israel-Palestine conflict provokes heated discussion, I would appreciate less use of personal insults, accusations of idiocy/mental deficiency/attention deficit and other ad hominems.

Unwarranted calumnies aimed at Guinness will also be severely reprimanded. :wink:

HoreTore

01-30-2008, 09:54

Unwarranted calumnies aimed at Guinness will also be severely reprimanded. :wink:

We're no longer allowed to say what we want about water?

I think you may have gone too far on this one, good sir.

Pannonian

01-30-2008, 11:28

Daniel Barenboim (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2248865,00.html)

x-dANGEr

01-30-2008, 13:16

I don't think they were evicted; they left, expecting the quick defeat of Israel in 1948. I dare say the ones who stayed in Israel are better off today.

CR
They left? Oh?! Good to know. They really just left?! As in, packed their bags and said.. "it's getting boring here in Palestine.. Let's take a ride around the un-welcoming world" ?!??! Wow, how did I miss that. All the stories I heard from our grandfathers seem wrong after all.. Why did they lie to us.. They actually mentioned a lot of killings, and some kind of extermination that was based on religious originality.. I actually remember hearing something about "welcoming people who later killed them".. I'm not sure of anything anymore.. Too bad. ~:(

Vladimir

01-30-2008, 14:49

Palestinian victims (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125046)

You know, I think Beirut may be right. Those poor souls.

sic

Ice

01-30-2008, 15:03

They left? Oh?! Good to know. They really just left?! As in, packed their bags and said.. "it's getting boring here in Palestine.. Let's take a ride around the un-welcoming world" ?!??! Wow, how did I miss that. All the stories I heard from our grandfathers seem wrong after all.. Why did they lie to us.. They actually mentioned a lot of killings, and some kind of extermination that was based on religious originality.. I actually remember hearing something about "welcoming people who later killed them".. I'm not sure of anything anymore.. Too bad. ~:(

Emotional appeal is retarded. Stop it.

Since it has already been shown that says a lot about your assumptions .

Forgive me on intruding on the ****fest which is going currently between you and Rabbit, but let me see if I have this correct:

Tribesman: I've posted evidence before, but I won't post it again because it's already posted.

CR: show me

Tribesman: No, [insert demeaning word]

x-dANGEr

01-30-2008, 15:46

Emotional appeal is retarded. Stop it.
What's that?!

drone

01-30-2008, 16:04

What's that?!
The saying here goes something like, "emotional appeal is it's own refutation". Nothing personal, Ice could have worded it better. When debating, facts and reason matter, not "think of the children" style histrionics. :bow:

Crazed Rabbit

01-30-2008, 16:49

Palestinian victims (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125046)

You know, I think Beirut may be right. Those poor souls.

sic

Oh, but I'm sure that it's those evil Israelis who are holding up the peace process, and that if they just gave the Palestinians what they wanted, they'd stop the terrorism and not be further emboldened to attack at all.

CR

Beirut

01-30-2008, 19:17

Oh, but I'm sure that it's those evil Israelis who are holding up the peace process, and that if they just gave the Palestinians what they wanted, they'd stop the terrorism and not be further emboldened to attack at all.

CR

And if the USSR had invaded the US and kept you all locked up in concentration camps with no regard for human rights, for decades, your TV and radio spots would say what exactly?

:singer: "The Soviet Union has generously agreed to let us keep the original 13 states, keeping for themselves only the 37 others. We think this is a Jim Dandy step towards peace. We ask all Americans to join us in a pledge of non-violence with our Communist brothers. And remember, get your water ration cards at your local Lenin Stadium. Curfew starts at sundown. Have a great day!"

I can see John Wayne reading that himself. Can't you?

KukriKhan

01-30-2008, 19:39

Let's stretch that analogy a bit and say: if the USSR had moved thousands of its citizens to Alaska (where they might have had a claim to 'ancestral homelands'), threw up a flag and declared independence... then Canada, the remaining US & Mexico disagreed and invaded Alaska, but LOST that war, and with it Yukon, BC, Washington, Oregon, California, and Baja Cal... then "New Russia" gave up Baja, Wash. & Yukon, but built walls around Brit Columbia, Oregon & Calif...

then we might have an analogous case. Especially if "New Russia" got recognized by the UN quickly.

Vladimir

01-30-2008, 19:40

And if the USSR had invaded the US and kept you all locked up in concentration camps with no regard for human rights, for decades, your TV and radio spots would say what exactly?

:singer: "The Soviet Union has generously agreed to let us keep the original 13 states, keeping for themselves only the 37 others. We think this is a Jim Dandy step towards peace. We ask all Americans to join us in a pledge of non-violence with our Communist brothers. And remember, get your water ration cards at your local Lenin Stadium. Curfew starts at sundown. Have a great day!"

I can see John Wayne reading that himself. Can't you?

More :thumbsdown:. Try locking up 200 + million, for decades. The example you're looking for is the native Americans.

Tribesman

01-30-2008, 20:29

Forgive me on intruding on the ****fest which is going currently between you and Rabbit
Its quite simple , it has been posted before , actually the event was rather a long running news item , it went on for weeks with Israel denying the centre had been hit and insisting despite all reports to the contrary that it was just a Kibbutz .
A bit of a bugger when the loss of the command centre led to serious problems (and losses) for the IDF in trying to co-ordinate their invasion , why I do believe by some strange chance that the reality of the event (rather than the claimed "poor civilians attacked") was actually confirmed by the Isreali government and miltary when they had their official "What went wrong with the invasion" inquiry .
Now if you would like a nice easy link ...tough , it isn't hard to find for yourself .

Beirut

01-30-2008, 20:43

Ice

01-30-2008, 23:27

The saying here goes something like, "emotional appeal is it's own refutation". Nothing personal, Ice could have worded it better. When debating, facts and reason matter, not "think of the children" style histrionics. :bow:

I could do a lot of things. I worded in purposely to fit his response.

Now if you would like a nice easy link ...tough , it isn't hard to find for yourself .

I could care less, as I'm not really participating in the debate.

I was just amused at the chain of events.

x-dANGEr

01-31-2008, 00:41

The saying here goes something like, "emotional appeal is it's own refutation". Nothing personal, Ice could have worded it better. When debating, facts and reason matter, not "think of the children" style histrionics.
Oh.. My bad. I was just trying to show some facts of "a lot of killings" and "some kind of extermination that was based on religious originality" in order to try and establish that they didn't just leave.

Crazed Rabbit

01-31-2008, 00:41

Can we just keep Vermont and call it a deal? ~:smoking:

Interesting analogy. I'll bet the Alaskans would be pretty miffed regardless of how the war went as long as them Commies were still in Anchorage, though.

I'll trade you NY, MA, NJ, CN, RI for BC. :deal2:

Vermont might not take kindly to not being able to carry pistols about with them as they please, though.

But seriously, Beirut, you can't ignore that the Palestinians want more than 1948 borders. They are preaching hatred and annihilation, not mere resistance or recapturing what they claim to be their lands.

CR

Beirut

01-31-2008, 01:14

I'll trade you NY, MA, NJ, CN, RI for BC. :deal2:

Vermont might not take kindly to not being able to carry pistols about with them as they please, though.

We really don't don't want NJ. Really, really.

BC? We'll think about it. But just what would y'all do with the monthly 900 tons of BC Bud you'd get along with the deal? (Not to mention the leftiiest of lefty tree huggers and tofu lovers on the planet.) Not sure you guys are ready for BC and all that it entails.

As for Vermont, they'll gladly exchange their guns for our healthcare, beer, and women. :sunny:

But seriously, Beirut, you can't ignore that the Palestinians want more than 1948 borders. They are preaching hatred and annihilation, not mere resistance or recapturing what they claim to be their lands.

CR

If you read carefully, you'll see a lot of that going around on both sides. Ben Gurion himself said the 1948 borders were just a starting point for the takeover of all of Palestine. You don't think the Palestinians knew that? You don't think decades of human rights violations and imprisonment while watching walls and illegal settlements being built clued them in that Ben Gurion's "dream" is alive and well?

Crazed Rabbit

01-31-2008, 01:22

BC? We'll think about it. But just what would y'all do with the monthly 900 tons of BC Bud you'd get along with the deal? (Not to mention the leftiiest of lefty tree huggers and tofu lovers on the planet.) Not sure you guys are ready for BC and all that it entails.

We just want the ski resorts. Yes, the preciouses...

Ahem. Maybe we'll leave you guys with Vancouver (city and island) and just take the mountains.

If you read carefully, you'll see a lot of that going around on both sides. Ben Gurion himself said the 1948 borders were just a starting point for the takeover of all of Palestine. You don't think the Palestinians knew that? You don't think decades of human rights violations and imprisonment while watching walls and illegal settlements being built clued them in that Ben Gurion's "dream" is alive and well?

That was a long time ago. And considering events like the withdrawal from Gaza, I doubt that idea is still followed. And even then, it meant conquering, not genocide.
:shrug:

CR

Beirut

01-31-2008, 01:45

That was a long time ago. And considering events like the withdrawal from Gaza, I doubt that idea is still followed. And even then, it meant conquering, not genocide.
:shrug:

CR

Well, that big ol' wall in the West Bank pushed the border back a few feet, that's for sure. And as far as I know, there are still illegal settlements going up there. There is also a powerful right wing in Israel who would gladly take much more land if they had the chance. The dream of Eratz Israel is not dead by a long shot.

As for the withdrawal from Gaza, sure it was a good, but how much credit can you give to a guy who breaks into your house, confines you and your kids to the bathroom, eats all your food, uses all the water, and gives you and yours a good thrashing every weekend, but then leaves with a wave and a smile after torching everything he used in the house. Does that guy really deserve a lot of praise?

Maybe it's just me, but threats of genocide by people who haven't the ability to do it versus the reality of multi-generational imprisonment of an entire population, collective punishment, and torture by a military superpower... I don't see a Nobel Peace prize for either side if you ask me.

Tribesman

01-31-2008, 02:47

That was a long time ago. And considering events like the withdrawal from Gaza, I doubt that idea is still followed.
Well that is where you are amazingly wrong yet again , you really are having a bad run of it in this topic .
There are currenty groups in the Knesset who stand on the policy that all non-jews shall be kicked out of Israel , there are also those that want them all kicked out of the occupied territories , then there are those that want everyone kicked out of Jordan too , and then there are the real fruitcakes that consider the State of Israel to be all land from the Nile to the Euprhrates and its only for them and them alone .

So you can take this...
But seriously, Beirut, you can't ignore that the Palestinians want more than 1948 borders. They are preaching hatred and annihilation, not mere resistance or recapturing what they claim to be their lands.
and substitute Israelis for Palestinians , your unthinking bias has undone you yet again Rabbit .
The main problem that the lunatic zionists have with their ambitions is that firstly they cannot afford it , and secondly in their opinion Israel (and the world) contains too many of the wrong sort of Jews for them to do it .

Hey Rabbit , Vladimir was kind enough to link to a settler mouthpiece earlier in the topic , you really should visit the forums there , but then again doing that might open your eyes a little and with your views you certainly wouldn't want your illusions shattered .

KukriKhan

01-31-2008, 04:04

you are amazingly wrong yet again , you really are having a bad run of it in this topic .

your unthinking bias has undone you yet again

doing that might open your eyes a little and with your views you certainly wouldn't want your illusions shattered .

Alas, alack, and alarum. A tiny bit of information buried by: More tedium. More sarcasm. More ad hominem, despite public admonitions, and private traffic.

You Sir, are ordered out of the thread. Any further contributions, of whatever value, will be deleted on-sight.

Sorry for the interruption posters and readers. Please carry on.

Crazed Rabbit

01-31-2008, 08:06

Well, that big ol' wall in the West Bank pushed the border back a few feet, that's for sure. And as far as I know, there are still illegal settlements going up there. There is also a powerful right wing in Israel who would gladly take much more land if they had the chance. The dream of Eratz Israel is not dead by a long shot.

Yes, the wall did, but it is to protect the current settlements - not just to seize land.

Also, are there new settlements going up? I read that the first ones in the west bank were built on Jordan government land after Israel captured it in the war. And what would you define as a 'legal' settlement?

As for the withdrawal from Gaza, sure it was a good, but how much credit can you give to a guy who breaks into your house, confines you and your kids to the bathroom, eats all your food, uses all the water, and gives you and yours a good thrashing every weekend, but then leaves with a wave and a smile after torching everything he used in the house. Does that guy really deserve a lot of praise?

:rolleyes: at the emotional appeal. And I sure remember the Palestinians fellows getting lots of praise for merely saying they're going to work towards peace. Doesn't Arafat have a street named after him somewhere in Europe?

Maybe it's just me, but threats of genocide by people who haven't the ability to do it versus the reality of multi-generational imprisonment of an entire population, collective punishment, and torture by a military superpower... I don't see a Nobel Peace prize for either side if you ask me.

Military superpower? Perhaps you should read the recent report on Israel in Lebanon. Imprisonment, torture of a whole people? Come on, enough of the exaggeration.

Funny you mention the peace prize. Think maybe the fact that Arafat did get it speaks to a slanted perception among a lot of people? That, as long as one side wants to commit genocide and indoctrinate their children with that belief, there can be no peace? That's the important point.

CR

x-dANGEr

01-31-2008, 12:30

Yes, the wall did, but it is to protect the current settlements - not just to seize land.

So you'd accept Lebanon building a wall into Israel to protect themselves?! (And thus, be able to dismiss the "moqawamah" (resistance), and then end the whole Israel - Lebanon conflict ?)

Also, are there new settlements going up? I read that the first ones in the west bank were built on Jordan government land after Israel captured it in the war. And what would you define as a 'legal' settlement?
A settlement in your own territory?! Or if in other territories, maybe agreed upon by the governors of that other territory?

*roll* at the emotional appeal.
It can be put in another way: As for the withdrawal from Gaza, sure it was a good move, more to the Israeli army, though. Gaza had become more and more expensive to "control" and "sit" on, so the Israeli government just decided it to "control" it in a far less costy way, after hugely disabling it.

Military superpower? Perhaps you should read the recent report on Israel in Lebanon.
Their loss at that war doesn't mean that they are not a super power. In fact, count the losses from each side, and you'll see it was only a "morale"/objective-wise loss. Israeli army got the biggest sign of their job done pretty well, and that's killing everyone in a certain area.
Imprisonment, torture of a whole people? Come on, enough of the exaggerationHow would you put it without exaggeration? Imprisonment of thousands of palestinians over void basis ?! "

"Stuff" about Israel:

1) Sa'eed al Atabah is a palestinian captive who's till now spent 31 years in Israeli captivity (political captive).

2) The number of palestinians who spent (still spend) more than 15 years in Israeli captivity is 232. The number of palestinians who spent (still spend) more than 20 years in Israeli captivity is 73. The number of palestinians who spent (still spend) more than 25 years in Israeli captivity is 10.

3) Since the West Bank and Gaza are blocked off in all ways, and can only "get through" to the world through Israel, I think it's fair to call them the biggest prisons in the world. (This has been more evident when Hamas was elected government, and wasn't given a chance to "rule", since all their funds were frozen by Israeli government, and even the donations couldn't pass through.

4) There are 7 palestinian government ministers held behind Israeli bars, and 40 Senators in their cells.

5) The number of palestinian captives hangs around 700,000 palestinians. That means that since the start of the "conquer", one of of every four palestinians inside palestine has been captivated. And if you assume that all those were men, then 42% of palestinian men has been into Israeli cells, as in one man out of each two.

6) The youngest captive in the world is held in the Israeli cells, a 13 year-old palestinian child.
7) There are 1175 palestinian students held captives in Israeli cells, of which, 330 are below the age of 18.

8) 12 educational facilities (colleges and schools) have been "militarily" shut by Israel in 2006, and 1125 of them couldn't continue with the education process due to the numerous "assaults".

9) In 2006, 359 education-related offices, schools, colleges, etc.. have been bombed. And 43 schools have been turned into military barracks-es.

10) 848 students have been killed by Israeli fire. 4792 students have been hit by Israeli fire.

11) In 2006, 13,572,896 trees have been removed, 784 agricultural storages have been demolished, 788 farms have been destroyed, 14829 goats and sheep have been killed, 16549 "bee cells" (?!) have been faulted, 425 wells have been destroyed, and 207 houses for farmers with their furnitures have been demolished.

12) There are 5001 military blocks and check points in the west bank. Of which, most are mobile, and only 763 are not.

That, and I can write you a page long about various-of-all aspects behaviors and policies that only show "racial/religious discrimination" in "Israel".

And I guess you'll just reply with "emotional something.." I hope numbers <> emotions.

Pannonian

01-31-2008, 12:43

x-DANGer, once again, what do you think can be done about it? If all the Palestinians are going to do is moan about it, why should others listen? They're not going to win militarily, and they've certainly showed no sign of wanting to settle it diplomatically beyond whining about how pitiful they are. Even the IRA learned to face up to reality and make the best of the situation, and now Sinn Fein (and Northern Ireland) are thriving. If they're not gong to be constructive, I don't see why they should get any material help - it's only going to be wasted, and we're getting nothing for it anyway, tangible or intangible.

Beirut

01-31-2008, 15:27

Yes, the wall did, but it is to protect the current settlements - not just to seize land.

But it did seize land, we agree on that. I'm saying (IMHO) that the formality of the land grab the wall instituted was as much on the mind of the Israelis as self-defence from incursion.

And what would you define as a 'legal' settlement?

A lovely block of two bedroom bungalos in Tel Aviv.

:rolleyes: at the emotional appeal.

I'm an emotional guy. :sunny:

When discussing matters relating to human rights you need to be emotional. The worst thing about not having any rights is that it makes you unhappy. Happiness is an emotion, perhaps the emotion most sought after by everyone everywhere. If people didn't care if they were happy or not, who would care about anything, especially about how someone else felt?

Vulcans we ain't. ~:yin-yang:

And I sure remember the Palestinians fellows getting lots of praise for merely saying they're going to work towards peace. Doesn't Arafat have a street named after him somewhere in Europe?

Well, I named my dog after a city in the Middle East, so who knows what goes on in the rest of the world.

Military superpower? Perhaps you should read the recent report on Israel in Lebanon.

Several hundred F-15s and F-16s. Several thousand main battle tanks. The highest of high tech military gagetry. Access to top shelf US satellitte info. A couple of dozen nuclear weapons. Yeah, that's a superpower.

As for Lebanon, they blew up the whole country from north to south and killed a thousand of the wrong people. Not only did they act like savages, they missed who they said they were aiming at and killed everyone else. In the annals of war, that one has to go on the top ten list of Stupid Military Tricks.

The US is a superpower. Look what happened in Vietnam (or Iraq).

Imprisonment, torture of a whole people? Come on, enough of the exaggeration.

A million people brutally repressed and locked up for decades. What hyperbole could that possibly require to look worse than it is?

Funny you mention the peace prize. Think maybe the fact that Arafat did get it speaks to a slanted perception among a lot of people?

Arafat served his purposse as a figurehead of defiance to an illegal occupation. As bad as he might have been, at least he rallied his people to fight back, though I certainly don't approve of some of the methods used.

That, as long as one side wants to commit genocide and indoctrinate their children with that belief, there can be no peace? That's the important point.

As long as you continue a multi-generational military occupation of a million people, we'll, people will say nasty things about you.

Vladimir

01-31-2008, 16:24

Several hundred F-15s and F-16s. Several thousand main battle tanks. The highest of high tech military gagetry. Access to top shelf US satellitte info. A couple of dozen nuclear weapons. Yeah, that's a superpower.

As for Lebanon, they blew up the whole country from north to south and killed a thousand of the wrong people. Not only did they act like savages, they missed who they said they were aiming at and killed everyone else. In the annals of war, that one has to go on the top ten list of Stupid Military Tricks.

The US is a superpower. Look what happened in Vietnam (or Iraq).

Thank you for reigniting my hostility toward Canada. I was starting to go soft here.

:unitedstates: We were founded not on emotion, or logic, but out of reason; something you consistently lack on this subject (ad homina homina homina)

You do know that more Canadians left Canada to fight in Vietnam then fled to avoid it, right?

Beirut

01-31-2008, 16:40

Thank you for reigniting my hostility toward Canada. I was starting to go soft here.

Oh, how can you be hostile towards us? We're all squishy inside and we make great beer. :canada:

:unitedstates: We were founded not on emotion, or logic, but out of reason; something you consistently lack on this subject (ad homina homina homina)

If you look really closely at the scribble below, you'll see something some ol' codger named Jefferson wrote having to do with Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. But what did he know, eh?
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/horsesass/505px-Us_declaration_independence.jpg

You do know that more Canadians left Canada to fight in Vietnam then fled to avoid it, right?

I didn't know any Canadians fled to avoid fighting in Vietnam. Where did they go, the Cashmere Clouds of Upper Tibet?