Chariots

[Hellenic_Hoplite]

I don't understand why the defence on chariots is only a one. it doesn't make much sense the rider in the chariot was standing in his "box" which makes it seem like it would protect him (at least somewhat), also the scythed chariot riders are wearing full armour. :dizzy2:

is there any historical evidence claiming chariots were particularally vunurable? I've heard people call them "ancient tanks", is there any truth to this? (protection wise)

[Barbarian]

I agree with this. I would rather like to see chariots fewer in numbers but stronger in defence. Seeing half of the army of chariots who fall like flies doesn't seem right.

But wait till the AI gets silver and gold chevron chariots with improved armor.
In my current campaign Pontus and Egypt uses tons of chariots with attack 17-20 and defence 5-7. They slice through phalanxes like throught the butter. After that they circle arround so fast, that it is impossible to reform the lines :wall:

[mrdun]

I'm no expert but I would have said that chariots were a force on the battlefields, and more importantly that especially as an infantry unit they would be hard to kill, maybe not for a Gaullic kamikaze but for a legion to try to reah up without leaving the formation. I think it would be hard yes. I also think that the height alone would be defence attributes.

[woad&fangs]

I think that Chariots have multiple hitpoints which somewhat makes up for their weak defense. Either way, the key with chariots is to keep them moving. They also have the ability to knock a lot of enemies down so your own troops can break through weak points in the enemy line.

[Punicus]

I think it's more an issue of CA wanting there to be balance than of inaccuracy (though yes, it is inaccurate to have their defense that low).

In my opinion, it would make less sense to have chariots have one hitpoint and more defense than vise versa anyway. And I couldn't imagine facing chariots that had both good defense and multiple hitpoints right off the bat - let's not even go there. :no:

[Good Ship Chuckle]

This configuration of defence and hitpoints shows the genius of CA.
In history, chariots were used to hit formations right where it hurts, and cause maximum disruption (not necessarily killing). But once the chariots were slowed down and lost momentum, they became easy targets for infantry.
The configuration of hitpoints and defence in RTW allows for this same senario to take place. When the chariots hit initially, they send everyone flying. Infantry can hardly get a hit off, despite the 1 defence. But once they get bogged down, the infantry can finally hack away at the hitpoints, thus killing the chariots very fast.:7detective:

[mrdun]

interessante

[Barbarian]

That still makes them quite weak against missiles. Seems odd to see chariots falling from 1 or 2 arrows, when even the infantry can withstand more. They should be prottected against arrows more than the basic cavalry. In the reallity, the arrows/javelins can't do anything against the cart, and also against the armoured crew. Only, if they hit horses, there would be some effect. Or maybe, the chariots should start runing amok, after missile fire, representing that the crew is dead, and the chariot is out of control.

But I doubt that two arrows can kill two crew members and horses + cmash the cart ~:eek:

[Quirinus]

This configuration of defence and hitpoints shows the genius of CA.
In history, chariots were used to hit formations right where it hurts, and cause maximum disruption (not necessarily killing). But once the chariots were slowed down and lost momentum, they became easy targets for infantry.
The configuration of hitpoints and defence in RTW allows for this same senario to take place. When the chariots hit initially, they send everyone flying. Infantry can hardly get a hit off, despite the 1 defence. But once they get bogged down, the infantry can finally hack away at the hitpoints, thus killing the chariots very fast.:7detective:
Yep, and if chariots had only one hitpoint and higher defense, they would play like regular cavalry, which pretty much defeats the point of chariots being special units.

But it would be much cooler if the engine showed the chariot riders dying one by one, instead of resisting tons of arrows and then suddenly dying all at once when the cart collapses. I find that to be both unrealistic and annoyingly unfair to the chariots' opponents.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

A similar problem exists with elephants - the crew dying only when the elephant is dead. This is fine for the more basic form of elephants, but is a little unfair for the more elite elephant units (which also happen to include arrows).

If it were possible, it would have been nice for chariots (and elephants) to act like two+ independent units which, to start with, are fixed onto each other. These units would, obviously, be the rider(s), the beast(s) and (in the case of chariots) the cart.

If the beast(s) are killed, the charioteers/elephant riders, could jump off and begin fighting in melee. Likewise, if the riders are killed, the beasts, as said, could just run around slaughtering anyway. Maybe enemy units could take control of the surviving unit, calm the beasts and use them to their own advantage if they so wish. If the cart was destroyed (with the charioteers on board), which could realistically only happen in melee, the riders would die, and the horses probably would be trapped by ropes restraining them.

Before anybody even is killed, however, it would have been nice it it was possible for the charioteers to simply jump of their chariots (leaving one man on each one for security reasons of course), and attack nearby units. Then reboard and go wherever else they are needed. I believe the ancient British boarded their elites onto chariots like this in their battles.

~:)

[Barbarian]

Those are a good ideas to tell, when Rome 2: Total war will be in the making process :laugh4:

[Quirinus]

That'd be sorta hard to implement though... :laugh4: The same problem exists with wardogs and incendiary pigs, I suppose-- these units aren't even supposed to be in a unit in the first place-- Hannibal had only, what, two, three elephants at Trebia? But instead in RTW you see scenarios like a quarter of an army consisting of chariots.

[caravel]

This configuration of defence and hitpoints shows the genius of CA.
In history, chariots were used to hit formations right where it hurts, and cause maximum disruption (not necessarily killing). But once the chariots were slowed down and lost momentum, they became easy targets for infantry.
The configuration of hitpoints and defence in RTW allows for this same senario to take place. When the chariots hit initially, they send everyone flying. Infantry can hardly get a hit off, despite the 1 defence. But once they get bogged down, the infantry can finally hack away at the hitpoints, thus killing the chariots very fast.:7detective:
I disagree. Chariot warfare pre-dates cavalry, and it is debatable as to whether there should be significant numbers of chariots during the time frame of RTW as chariots would have been disappearing from the battlefield around the 4th and 5th centuries BC. Cavalry superseded chariots in every way: A decent cavalry charge is stronger, more manoeuverable and more capable than any chariot charge and horse archers are superior in every way to chariot archers. If anything chariots in RTW are overpowered, shouldn't be there and are in fact just another ahistorical cock up. What has led some to believe that chariot warfare continued is the fact that they were still present in Arenas for many centuries.

[mrdun]

Move to monastery?

[caravel]

The Monastery is for purely historical discussions whereas this thread is about the use of chariots in RTW so I'd say that it is best left here. It's ultimately up to Omanes or whoever though of course.

:bow:

[professorspatula]

I remember doing loads and loads of tests on chariots and modding their defence, armour and hit point levels to get them more balanced. I can't remember all the results of the tests, but I found lowering the hit-points and instead increasing the chariot's armour made them more effective without making them any more powerful during auto-calcs. You could at least charge through an enemy unit without all the chariots falling apart. Changing the armour of the crew had virtually zero effect whether they had 0 points or 50.

By the way - it is possible for the passenger (not the driver) on a chariot to die before the chariot itself breaks, but it is really rare. If you do enough chariot battles you may see it happen but it is pretty uncommon which is a shame.

[Caeser The III]

acully, chariots were basically the power unit of britan during the attack from the rome

[caravel]

acully, chariots were basically the power unit of britan during the attack from the rome
There is some debate as to the roles of chariots in in Britain. Roman sources seem to suggest that they were used to convey the infantry into the battle rather than to actually engage the enemy themselves - rather like an ancient armoured personnel carrier. They were small wicker chariots not "heavy" scythed chariots as depicted in the game. Some of the chieftains may have driven scythed vehicles. Also chariots may have persisted in Britain due to it's being more isolated and the size of the horses at the time.

A good unit would have been a "british chariot warband" that ride into battle throwing javelins then unload their infantry to attack on foot.

[Quirinus]

I remember doing loads and loads of tests on chariots and modding their defence, armour and hit point levels to get them more balanced. I can't remember all the results of the tests, but I found lowering the hit-points and instead increasing the chariot's armour made them more effective without making them any more powerful during auto-calcs. You could at least charge through an enemy unit without all the chariots falling apart. Changing the armour of the crew had virtually zero effect whether they had 0 points or 50.
Haha, yeah, I remember reading with interest your description of the difficulty and pitfalls of modding (or something like that). But, as previously mentioned in this thread, wouldn't reducing the hit point of the chariots from two to one and increasing their armour turn them into (essentially) just another cavalry unit?


By the way - it is possible for the passenger (not the driver) on a chariot to die before the chariot itself breaks, but it is really rare. If you do enough chariot battles you may see it happen but it is pretty uncommon which is a shame.
I've never actually seen that in played battles, only in auto-calc results. What causes them to die individually rather than break their necks simultaneously when their cart collapses?

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Haha, yeah, I remember reading with interest your description of the difficulty and pitfalls of modding (or something like that). But, as previously mentioned in this thread, wouldn't reducing the hit point of the chariots from two to one and increasing their armour turn them into (essentially) just another cavalry unit?I'm in doubt over whether that would be the case - chariots have a different method of attack compared to other cavalry types, so probably would still have the same disadvantages (their vulnerability to being slowed down) and advantages. I'm not into the ins and outs of modding though, so it's not really my department.

~:)

[Quirinus]

I have no idea either, it just seems to me that the RTW chariots' unique playing style (great while mobile, die like flies when stationary) comes more from the unusual stats (multiple hitpoints, no defense) than anything else.

Has anyone tried to give a regular cavalry unit two hitpoints plus no defense?

[Barbarian]

Don't think the cavalry would be effective with such stats - cavalry can be stopped much sooner than chariots, after a few seconds of charge, they go into melee.

[professorspatula]

Haha, yeah, I remember reading with interest your description of the difficulty and pitfalls of modding (or something like that). But, as previously mentioned in this thread, wouldn't reducing the hit point of the chariots from two to one and increasing their armour turn them into (essentially) just another cavalry unit?


I've never actually seen that in played battles, only in auto-calc results. What causes them to die individually rather than break their necks simultaneously when their cart collapses?

No the chariots are still chariots. They charge through the enemy, knock them flying, kill the occasional troop, get themselves into a mess and need to escape sharp-ish before their massive frame gets hacked to pieces; whereas cavalry tends to charge and immediately destroy a unit, or at least get stuck into a melee. The advantage of extra armour as opposed to hitpoints means they withstand missile fire better and are less likely to be weakened before they engage in melee. Ie: a 4 hitpoint, 0 armour chariot will be utterly destroyed it if it has already been hit a couple of times before it enters combat, whereas a 2hitpoint, 7 armour chariot is considerably more likely to withstand a couple of melee attacks. If I recall (it's been a while), whilst the combat effectiveness seems to be improved a bit, the battle advantage rating for the chariot seems to have declined - which is a good thing as if you pit a unit versus a chariot unit you are incorrectly told the chariot will win by a mile, when in fact it will probably rout before killing anyone.


As to the passenger dying on his own accord, I don't know what causes it. I just performed dozens of tests in a row whereby chariots were pitted against archers and a spear unit, and on one test, as the chariots routed under archer fire, one passenger fell off the back. I'm pretty sure it is possible for this to happen to elephant crews as well. It's possible the crew has their own very small hit-box, or it's random, or I was tripping.

[Quirinus]

No the chariots are still chariots. They charge through the enemy, knock them flying, kill the occasional troop, get themselves into a mess and need to escape sharp-ish before their massive frame gets hacked to pieces; whereas cavalry tends to charge and immediately destroy a unit, or at least get stuck into a melee. The advantage of extra armour as opposed to hitpoints means they withstand missile fire better and are less likely to be weakened before they engage in melee. Ie: a 4 hitpoint, 0 armour chariot will be utterly destroyed it if it has already been hit a couple of times before it enters combat, whereas a 2hitpoint, 7 armour chariot is considerably more likely to withstand a couple of melee attacks. If I recall (it's been a while), whilst the combat effectiveness seems to be improved a bit, the battle advantage rating for the chariot seems to have declined - which is a good thing as if you pit a unit versus a chariot unit you are incorrectly told the chariot will win by a mile, when in fact it will probably rout before killing anyone.
I see. Though, don't most chariots have two hitpoints only? The only chariot unit I remember with more than two hitpoints is the Egyptian (and possibly the Briton) chariot general, which has five.

I'm playing on v1.3 though, if that means anything.

[Punicus]

I see. Though, don't most chariots have two hitpoints only? The only chariot unit I remember with more than two hitpoints is the Egyptian (and possibly the Briton) chariot general, which has five.

I'm playing on v1.3 though, if that means anything.I'm almost positive that British Light Chariots have two hitpoints. And I think the low-tier Egyptian chariots have two as well, but I could be wrong.

[professorspatula]

Yes, half the chariots have 2HP, and it's the heavy ones and General's ones that have more. The thing is, the chariot's strength is not to kill, but to cause disruption and to cause fear and break any unit already having a crisis of confidence. As most mods reduce the kill rate of units and increase the morale of all units, the poor chariots find it harder to cause sufficient fear. I never quite finished balancing the chariots, but I found 2HP was the minimum, with a moderate armour bonus to give them a chance in melee. Heavy chariots were given 2HP, but with more armour so they weren't overpowered, although that made them a little more inferior cost-wise than their light counterparts. General's chariots had 3HP and same armour as heavy ones. It seemed to make them more effective overall whilst the game no longer said 'victory is certain' when you pit a chariot against another unit. Chariots are only a small part of the game anyway.

[Quirinus]

Unless you're playing against Egypt! D= The chariot auto-calc imbalance means that every battle against a decent-sized Egyptian army has to be played on the battlefield. I resent that, as I detest fighting chariots, skirmishers and cheap phalanx units. Oh wait, that's the whole troop lineup of an early Egyptian army.......

But anyways. I see your point, I think. Does that mean that, if you mod a cavalry unit to have two hitpoints and no defense, it will perform completely differently from a chariot unit?

[professorspatula]

I know what you mean about the auto-calc thing. I once took an army of around 1500 peasants, militia and other troops and attacked some Gold chevron Egyptian general. He slaughtered about 800 of them and caused us to retreat. So next turn I fought him myself and he died without killing a single troop.

I wouldn't even bother modding a cavalry unit to have no defence and 2 HP. If it didn't kill and rout a unit on impact it would be slaughtered pretty fast. So yea, a bit like a chariot unit I guess, although without the ability to send the unit flying all over the place first.