Le Pen is Mightier than the Sword?

[Vladimir]

Sorry for the title but for some reason French politics is exciting to me. Probably because it's happening to them and not me:

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/theworld/2008/January/theworld_January395.xml&section=theworld&col=

PARIS - A scion of France’s veteran far-right leader and and Europe’s best known Muslim intellectual wrangled over whether immigrant children should adopt French names and other cures for suburban unrest at a rare left-right clash in Paris on Monday.

Plus the word "scion" reminds me of our resident mod specter.

[Fragony]

My favorite muslim brotherhood associate who pretends to be liberal got invited again huh, glad we aren't the only country hanging onto every-word-he-says, craving for his attention.

[Vladimir]

I give you gold and you give me Fragony?!

Just kidding man. ~;)

[HoreTore]

Bah, how anyone could take a fascist like Le Pen seriously is beyond me.

Let such people gain control of a few nations, and the world's demand for mustard gas will skyrocket...

[Fragony]

They don't, they do however take Tariq Ramadan seriously, he's the posterboy of the intelelctual elite but he isn't quite the liberal muslim he pretends to be. He is known to have contacts with the muslim brotherhood and some other very shady characters. They should pit him against Hans Janssen, now that I would like to see.

[hellenes]

Bah, how anyone could take a fascist like Le Pen seriously is beyond me.

Let such people gain control of a few nations, and the world's demand for mustard gas will skyrocket...

Nah If they had defeated their enemies we would be reading about the monstrus Churchill and the Devil Rousvelt...combined with Armagedon Stalin...History is written by the victors...its aint anything new...

PS
Check this out:
http://www.waronline.org/terror/hizballah/recruts.jpg

[Fragony]

That goes back a long way http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/2543

[Louis VI the Fat]

Just to be clear: this Le Pen is Marine Le Pen, daughter of Jean-Marie, 'the' Le Pen. She is the future heir to both his political party and the family's single brain cell.

They have little to add to any serious debate. And have become marginalised anyway because Sarkozy was the first respectable politician who finally dared to talk about an immigration policy that takes French interests into account because of the staunch and ever relevant resistance of the left to anti-immigrational fascist tendencies in French politics.

Intellectual debate in the Front National is limited to such stimulating questions as whether the FN should remain a party rooted in France's creepy anti-semitic underbelly or whether the FN should seek an alliance with French Jewry against the common foe of the Muslims. *sigh*

I don't know much about Ramadan. From what I gather, he sounds about as useless as the FN.

Ramadan, Le Pen and their respective supporters in a single room. What an opportunity they missed to bar the doors, throw away the keys and let the rest of the world move on.

[hellenes]

Just to be clear: this Le Pen is Marine Le Pen, daughter of Jean-Marie, 'the' Le Pen. She is the future heir to both his political party and the family's single brain cell.

They have little to add to any serious debate. And have become marginalised anyway because Sarkozy was the first respectable politician who finally dared to talk about an immigration policy that takes French interests into account because of the staunch and ever relevant resistance of the left to anti-immigrational fascist tendencies in French politics.

Intellectual debate in the Front National is limited to such stimulating questions as whether the FN should remain a party rooted in France's creepy anti-semitic underbelly or whether the FN should seek an alliance with French Jewry against the common foe of the Muslims. *sigh*

I don't know much about Ramadan. From what I gather, he sounds about as useless as the FN.

Ramadan, Le Pen and their respective supporters in a single room. What an opportunity they missed to bar the doors, throw away the keys and let the rest of the world move on.

Its so funny how the Muslims were and still are Nazis best friends...and still skinheads and neonazis hate and love them at the same time... :beam:

[Tribesman]

Nice website Frag , I was wondering about some of the glaring innaccuracies on the page , but hey a quick link to where they gather their "facts" from explains a lot of it .

[Fragony]

Nice website Frag , I was wondering about some of the glaring innaccuracies on the page , but hey a quick link to where they gather their "facts" from explains a lot of it .

Random website, google. There is plenty about this Tariq Ramadan if you happen to be interested, he is no good. Why don't you be an inquisitive boy and look for some facts starting with him being the grandson of the founder of the muslim brotherhood in Egypt, you know about thse guys no?

[HoreTore]

Random website, google. There is plenty about this Tariq Ramadan if you happen to be interested, he is no good. Why don't you be an inquisitive boy and look for some facts starting with him being the grandson of the founder of the muslim brotherhood in Egypt, you know about thse guys no?

I'm the grandson of the former leader of the Christian People's party.

[Fragony]

I'm the grandson of the former leader of the Christian People's party.

Just google him and see what the 'intellectual' elite is holding onto their chest. Idiots.

[Tribesman]

look for some facts starting with him being the grandson of the founder of the muslim brotherhood in Egypt,

Wow thats absolutely stunningly amazing , such an eye opening revelation...so what ?


Just google him and see what the 'intellectual' elite is holding onto their chest.
Well if they was really holding it close to their chests then a google wouldn't turn up anything would it . :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Though you do puzzle me Frag with the old "intellectual elite" line .
Are you going for the crazy stalinist version of it or the crazy NSDAP version .
Funny isn't it , its a phrase the crazies use , are you one of the crazies by any chance ?
If its not the Muslims its the intellectuals:dizzy2: They are all out to get ya Frag

[Fragony]

It is what it is, I am right you are wrong simple as that. Now if only it would be that simple.

[Tribesman]

It is what it is, I am right you are wrong simple as that.
Yes I suppose you are right , if viewed it from the perspective of a paranoid extreme xenophobe you are definately right .
Actually come to think of it that wouldn't make you correct would it , it would just make you a paranoid extremist .
Oh well , simple as that:shrug:

[Fragony]

Only an extremist would consider me an extremist

[Banquo's Ghost]

Is this a new episode of "Tribesy and Frag Go Large" or a repeat? I've watched them so often, I lose track.

(In other words, please get back on topic). :beadyeyes2:

[Fragony]

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/000753.php

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/3231

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

The hope of the intellectual elite, he's no good :juggle2:

[HoreTore]

That first site was seriously weak, Frag...

Obsessed right-wing fanatics are hardly a credible source.

[Fragony]

Fanaticaly against fanatics, that would make them extremily moderate.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sorry for the title but for some reason French politics is exciting to me. Probably because it's happening to them and not me.French politics is very exciting indeed. French political debate is too. And I am flattered by your interest. But there's just something about the current subject that always brings out the fanatics from the left and the right. They stifle the debate with their shouting, their mutual insults, their tedious repetition of old moves. Normal people leave, with a severe headache, tired of this same teh old all the time.

'Adopting French names, proper French language and French customs'. What is that - the pinnacle of an enlightenment society reaching out and accepting people from everywhere into its midst? Or the pinnacle of fascism, of a society so unaccepting of difference that it demands absolute assimilation? That is a great debate, and it shouldn't be left to the extremists from either side. But I can't be bothered to go into the fray - see the bit above and my quote below.


Ramadan, Le Pen and their respective supporters in a single room. What an opportunity they missed to lock the doors, throw away the keys and let the rest of the world move on.

[Vladimir]

That and French book reviews :grin:

Never read the book but speak on it with such 'authority' and great articulation that people agree with you.

Or something to that effect.

[Fragony]

Don't know about France but north african kids get an instant double passport here and parents aren't allowed to pick a dutch name.

[Tribesman]

That first site was seriously weak, Frag...
Which one ?
Is it the one that is banned in lots of places because it is classed as a racist hate site or is it the one that is described as xenophobic zionism with elements of Macarthyism , founded by someone who is described as being so determined to spout propoganda that he has lost all objectivity.:inquisitive:


Don't know about France but north african kids get an instant double passport here and parents aren't allowed to pick a dutch name.

Such utter drivel

[Fragony]

Making things up again Tribes? Now in Brittain it wouldn't surprise me, they made 'anti islamic activity' a criminal offence after all, but let's completily forget about the uk for now and from now on, but what the? No?

[Tribesman]

Making things up again Tribes?
No but you obviously are . I shall get back to that after this..... then again I don't have to get back to it since your next bit
Now in Brittain it wouldn't surprise me, they made 'anti islamic activity' a criminal offence after all,
Is also made up .
Just for your information it was that bastion of liberalism elite intellectuals the US government who classed it as a racist hate site .

But hey lets continue with more of your made up nonsense....
Don't know about France but north african kids get an instant double passport here and parents aren't allowed to pick a dutch name.

you don't even know the laws of your own country , laws which you want to moan about , but laws which you have to invent .



A little lesson for ya Frag .
It is quite a simple lesson , see if you can follow it

If you have to make up lies to support your point then your point has very little or no validity .
If to get information that supports your views you have to refer to lunatic fringe websites then it is a pretty safe bet that your view is of the lunatic flavour .

[Vladimir]

You two just need to have sex and get on with it. :argue: :knuddel: :quiet:

[Fragony]

AdrianII, enter please, the Tribes just won't eat what I feed him maybe he needs a hand he knows.

Come to think of it, why aren't ya with me so much silence from the dutch you know what I know.

[KukriKhan]

This wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_nationality_law) on Dutch citizenship seems to support


...north african kids get an instant double passport here...

But I can't find anything reputable about


...parents aren't allowed to pick a dutch name.


I reiterate Banquo's Ghost's warning to stay on topic and refrain from ad hominems.

[Tribesman]

Come to think of it, why aren't ya with me so much silence from the dutch you know what I know.
Perhaps the silence from the rest of the Dutch is because they actually know hollands citizenship laws and know that you are making up rubbish .



Don't know about France but north african kids get an instant double passport here and parents aren't allowed to pick a dutch name.

So Frag , try and point out anything in your statement that is true .:inquisitive:
Here how about...
Don't know about France perhaps that is true , should you add "don't know about Holland" to it , since on this subject it would certainly seem to be true .

But hey some of what you wrote could be true , if the North African kid had parents from two different North African countries and the respective countries had citizenship laws that covered descendants born abroad for both the father and the mother then they would get the instant double passport .:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: hmmmmm....just like they would anywhere else in the world .

Come in Adrian , Fragony really needs some :help:

edit to add
No Kukri it doesn't , fromthe article....

Children born in the Netherlands to foreign parents do not acquire Dutch citizenship at birth.

it no change to what it was in the earlier version , birth in the Netherlands does not come with an automatic entitlement to citizenship .

[Fragony]

How about all that I say is true and it is for you to denounce it. Let's clear il-Tariq from all doubt. And while you are at it the entire muslim world.

[Tribesman]

How about all that I say is true
That would be another lie then Frag , and a very obvious one .
Whassup did you get stuck on trying to find a single bit of your statement that was true so just decided to pile on some more ?


it is for you to denounce it.
There is no need , the sources you use to support your views speak volumes .


Let's clear il-Tariq from all doubt.

My my thats a big task , from all doubt of what ?


And while you are at it the entire muslim world.
Wow thats an even bigger task , the entire Muslim world , what is that exactly ...oh yeah its teh Muslims that are out to get ya , all of them
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Fragony]

Maybe you should try rap

[Vladimir]

Fragony has a LOT of friends. :laugh4:

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/32867/Europeans-think-Islam-is-dangerous

Looks like the shoe is on the other side of the pond!

[Tribesman]

Looks like the shoe is on the other side of the pond!

Interesting , I was expecting something from the express to read ....

The Jewish merchant prince is leaving his counting-house,
the banker his board-room, the shopkeeper his store, and
the pedlar his humble barrow, to join together in what has
become a holy war .
But OK
Last night an MP warned it showed that political leaders in Britain who preach the benefits of unlimited immigration were dangerously out of touch with the public.


Now who are these supposed politicians who preach about "unlimited immigration" did David Davies invent them . Is there any country in Europe that has a policy or even proposed policy for unlimited immigration ?



AN “overwhelming majority” of Europeans believe immigration from Islamic countries is a threat to their traditional way of life
Did it also say that people believe Hindu immigration , Asian immigration and eastern european immigration is a threat to their traditional way of life . Whatever they may think their traditional way of life is or what merits the tradition has .


“a growing fear among Europeans of a perceived Islamic threat to their cultural identities, driven in part by immigration from predominantly Muslim nations”.
Ah a percieved threat , is that the same as a real threat ?
Or is it like the "Muslims gonna get ya" percieved threat Frag suffers from .

Oh look ...
“There is an absence of trust towards Muslims, but to my mind that is very much driven by an uninformed media. "
hmmmm..does that uninformed media include a rag like the express ? OK its not quite as bad as the mail but is a pretty crap media source .


The report says people have little enthusiasm for greater understanding with Islam and attempts to improve relations have been “disappointing”.


oh looky people can't be arsed , they prefer to just read rubbish in the tabloid press to form their views .


And with the EU Muslim population expected to reach 15 per cent by 2025
OMG , quick panic ...15% it must never be allowed to rise above 10% if it gets above 10% they will take over europe and no one will be allowed to give their children dutch names :dizzy2:

So ...
Fragony has a LOT of friends.
Yes there are lots of them , they even have their own political parties and lots of entertaining websites , visit a few and see for yourself if they fall into the deluded muppet category .

[Fragony]

We really should do something about them.

[Vladimir]

The Jewish merchant prince is leaving his counting-house,
the banker his board-room, the shopkeeper his store, and
the pedlar his humble barrow, to join together in what has
become a holy war

:laugh4:

Yea, I had a similar reaction when I caught site of one of the report's authors.

And yes, a perceived threat is the same as a real threat. ("We only know what we can perceive and we can only perceive what is already in the mind.")

[Fragony]

It is a percieved threat and how it is handled is the real danger. Islamists couldn't conquer their donkey without falling of, it's the lefties whose blind multiculturalism leads to idiotic solutions that are meant to just save the confortable bliss of today, nothing is being taken it is given away. It's a religion like all others and that is why we have a seperation of church and state, to protect us from zealots.

[Tristuskhan]

We really should do something about them.

About who? Muslims?

You want to do something about my egyptian father-in-law?

Warmongering, uh? More in words than in acts, I bet...

[Tribesman]

Yea, I had a similar reaction when I caught site of one of the report's authors.

That quote is actually taken from the express (a front page headline article), its an exerpt you find repeated quite often on the "we hate immigrants" websites , they consider it has proof that hitler was right and the "international Jewish conspiracy"was trying to take over europe...and then the world:dizzy2:


And yes, a perceived threat is the same as a real threat.
No it isn't , the perception can be flawed , the precieved threat can exist only in the mind , when it comes to paranoid xenophobes the percieved threat can be entirely the construct of their paranoia and prejudice .

[Vladimir]

No it isn't , the perception can be flawed , the precieved threat can exist only in the mind , when it comes to paranoid xenophobes the percieved threat can be entirely the construct of their paranoia and prejudice .

How can one take action against a threat they can't perceive? States take action based on what they perceive to be in their best national interest. Individuals follow a similar path. The only way to verify a threat is if it materializes, then it's too late. Your perception is largely influenced by your bias, we all have them.

[Fragony]

About who? Muslims?

You want to do something about my egyptian father-in-law?

Warmongering, uh? More in words than in acts, I bet...

Especially him

[Tribesman]

How can one take action against a threat they can't perceive?
How can one take action against a percieved threat that is the result of flawed perception ?


Especially him:dizzy2:
Well Trist , you are lucky , as your father in law is egyptian it means your wife is also an egyptian citizen , but as she is of the female sort your kids will not automaticly get the egyptian citizenship that Frag worries about so much , though I think you had better check with him on what names you are permitted to give your offspring ....apparently certain names are not allowed:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Vladimir]

How can one take action against a percieved threat that is the result of flawed perception ?

Stop it. You're not making sense and you know it.

One takes action by, taking action! How would you know your perception is flawed, hmm? Would you rely solely on the perceptions of others? Time and circumstance don't always allow this.

Where are the Japanese going to attack?

Just apply the same scrutiny to Fragony as he applies to this perceived threat. He's willing to back it up with something. While you are good at destroying an argument something has to be built back up in its place. Just not with:


:laugh4:

:laugh4: :laugh4:
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Tribesman]

Stop it. You're not making sense and you know it.

Of course it makes sense .


One takes action by, taking action!
How do you take action against something that only exists in the mind .


Just apply the same scrutiny to Fragony as he applies to this perceived threat.
I have , he talks of laws that don't exist .


He's willing to back it up with something.
yes and look at what he uses to back it up , its not exactly what could be viewed as very reliable sources to form your views from .
In fact a lot of it can be described as complete nonsense .

[Fragony]

You really have to do something about that reading thing. When children from foreign, and that would mean no-dutch passport asylum seekers you get it, are born here they don't aquire dutch citizenship. And I never said they did learn to read.

"Don't know about France but north african kids get an instant double passport here and parents aren't allowed to pick a dutch name."

Watch the double, that would mean it would already have 1 no? So that other would be on top of it, get it?

[Tristuskhan]

I don't understand a word of what you want to say about that naming thing...

Every child born in France has the right to claim french citizenship. My girl is french (and never tell her she's egyptian, she went there twice in her life and did not like it at all). And we have the right to give our children any name we want.
In our case it could be Joseph Stalin Le Bourhis-Sahally or Gamal Nasser Le Bourhis-Sahally. Or maybe we should give them one of those pretty dutch names... Tojdbeurlikjt Le Bourhis-Sahally. Top-end blind lefty multiculturalist would it be...

Hey Frag, stop moaning about "muslims" in general as you do... Judge people on their own acts, not on those of their supposed-to-be cousins. Or you'll harm innocents and go down to the level of your so-called ennemies.

Frag, I did not even understand your thread's tittle... Do you believe this debate was a clash? Le Pen(s) and Ramadan want the same things for most, i.e. different laws for the different communauties, influence of religious "morale" on the public life, in order for the different "communauties" to keep as "pure" as possible. They are not friends but can agree on much.
Tarik Ramadan: brilliant orator, elegant, calm, and, I confirm, VERY VERY dangerous mind clearly linked with the worst conservative islam .

[Fragony]

Names is a dutch thing I guess. And I can say exactly the same thing in endless variations, sod the muslims, overrated. The problem is terrified people on important places, see the fearmonging we have seen the last months about Wilders little movie, which by the way now has evolved in sucking up 'thank you for opening the debate' when they found out the dutch weren't as scared as their leaders, cowardice comes in many forms.

[Tribesman]

When children from foreign, and that would mean no-dutch passport asylum seekers you get it, are born here they don't aquire dutch citizenship. And I never said they did learn to read.

Oh so you mean that Dutch citizens that also are entitled to another citizenship get entitled to another citizenship ...oh how shocking .:dizzy2:



but north african kids get an instant double passport
No they don't , Dutch kids who are entitled another citizenship get another citizenship .:yes:

If they were North African they would get no automatic entitlement to a dutch passport , just like if an Irish citizen who didn't hold Dutch citizenship wouldn't automatically get a Dutch passport for their kid on top of their entitlement to an Irish one , unless of course they were really sneaky and errrrr.....had Dutch citizenship:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

How do you take action against something that only exists in the mind .

Stop thinking.

[Fragony]

Oh so you mean that Dutch citizens that also are entitled to another citizenship get entitled to another citizenship ...oh how shocking

Didn't say it was, you said it isn't true.

[Tribesman]

Didn't say it was, you said it isn't true.
Fragony what you wrote isn't true ,
You wrote ...
Don't know about France but north african kids get an instant double passport here and parents aren't allowed to pick a dutch name.
...the second part is completely false , and the first part would only be true if you had written , "People of North African decent whose parents are citizens of the Netherlands and as such would be entitled to a Dutch citizenship would also be entitled to additional citizenships if the relevant countries that their forebears also hold citizenship of have laws that provide citizenship to descendants of citizens born abroad ".....but as such it would also apply to a multitude of dutch citizens from any country in the world that has those laws (and there are lots and lots of them)and also in the opposite direction to any descendants of Dutch citizens born abroad that meet the dutch descendants born abroad provisions in your laws .
What you tried to do is take a normal law that applies in many countries throughout the world and use it as a "its teh Muslims " rant again ...in doing so you once again fall flat on your face .:oops:

How about getting outraged about ..hmmmm....A child born out of wedlock in a foriegn country to a Dutch mother is entitled to Dutch citizenship:scared: Oh my God , they are giving dutch citizenship to foriegn bastards:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Fragony]

So it is exactly as I said it was, second part is true as well.

[Tribesman]

So it is exactly as I said it was, second part is true as well.
Errr Fragony , since North African kids do not get an instant double passport and there is no law banning Dutch names how on earth can what you wrote be true ?
What you wrote may be right , as in very very extreme right , but it isn't true .

[Fragony]

Since they do what I say is true.

http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article444498.ece/Marokkanen_willen_zelf_naam_voor_hun_kind_kunnen_kiezen

[Fragony]

ps, is a marrocan law not a dutch, one of the many complexities of double nationality.

[Tribesman]

Since they do what I say is true.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Nice try Frag .Hmmm...instant double passport :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:


ps, is a marrocan law not a dutch, one of the many complexities of double nationality.

Tell you what Frag , why don't you look at North African coutries citizenship laws and see how many even allow double passports , then see how many give instant ones , and then see what rules and restrictions there are on the one country that gives instant ones .

[Fragony]

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/h.dillen/images/ambulance.gif