Papal Emergence: Odd occurence

[Prussian1]

I was strolling happily doen the Italian penninsula after the Italians got excommunicated, giving me the Green Light from On-High.

I bumbed into the Sicillians in Rome, who were at war with the Papacy, this also fair game. Rome was mine pretty quyickly, leaving the Pope with only the Papal States.

Anyway, when the time was right, the Pope (surprise) attacked me, leaving me with no choice but to squish him and take my usuall approach to Papal Containment. I wiped out the pope, destroyed everything int he Papal States, Jacked up the tax rate to Very High and got out. The rebels consisted of two archers. Fine with me . . .


I set up stacks in the surrounding provinces awaiting the inevitable papal return.

He did come back - in the Papal States AND in Rome (which had 200% loyalty)

My previous experience has been a simple re-emergence in The Papal States.

Anyone have any insight on this??

[macsen rufus]

I usually see him come back in both provinces, and my usual strategy is to defend Rome, and abandon Papal States (usually with very little infrastructure :devil:), then I attack Papal States and once he's besieged, I withdraw - autoceasefire with a very weakened Papacy who is now my poodle. I also tend to leave smallish garrisons here as well - because you can't stop the re-emergence, and the more troops you have, the more he will have.... Where it does get more complicated is when he has spread out before this, as the re-emergence could be anywhere (I have a BKB game going where the Papacy has all of Italy, plus the islands, and stretches across to Hungary and Carpathia. That's going to be one unpredictable re-emergence when I have to whack him down :laugh4: )

[Prussian1]

I'll keep the Rome thing in mind. As mentioned, I usually just see him respawn in Papal States, but I'll reduce the size of the garrison in Rome and see what happens.

[Musket]

Like someone already stated, there is no way to stop the re-emergence of the Pope. Sometimes, I have been in battle with regular nations, and when the war is over, it states that their King has been killed in battle, their heirs captive and they have no more heirs to take over. Yet some time down the line, there is always an heir who somehow managed to escape and launches a rebellion.

I think the best strategy for controlling the Pope and the Papal States, is to keep a small garrison in Rome and the States (perhaps, only 400 men or so), then keep a huge experienced and well-led army outside the Papacy. When he re-appears move your army and annihilate him. The only problem will be that you will have to keep recruiting men in order to keep the army up to strength.

[Jxrc]

I usually see him come back in both provinces, and my usual strategy is to defend Rome, and abandon Papal States (usually with very little infrastructure :devil:), then I attack Papal States and once he's besieged, I withdraw - autoceasefire with a very weakened Papacy who is now my poodle.

That usually does the trick but not always as I have just learnt recently.

Pope started the usual war with the Sicilian who had taken Rome and were besieging the Pope in his Papal States castle. Being a good catholic (and the onwer of North Italy with a strong dislike for unavoidable papal re-emergence), I thought I would lend a helping hand to my ally. I thus kikced the Sicilians out of Rome (which I kept for myself) and the Papal States which was returned to His Holiness. Sicilian ships were bugging me and disturbing my trade routes so that I could not resist the temptation to get Naples and Sicily and wipe them out. All pink and rosy to that point since the Pope was still alive without being any kind of threat (I had only all the troops that can stand in a wooden fort so a bit less than 200 probably). Few years later the Pope cancelled his alliance with and I could not care less. Still a few years later that idiot managed to get a peasant revolt and found itself besieged by the rebels (400 troops max). In order to avoid excom, I send a bishop to suggest an alliance so that I could dislodge the rebels without being excommed (Thought I could do that cause the keep would hold for at least three years before falling). What went wrong was not that the rebels assaulted the keep, not that my alliance offer was turned down but that the silly sicilians took that one year delay to reappear with about four thousand quality troops (feudal knights, CMAA, CS, etc) ... I had planned enough troops to deal with 400 rebels and not enough to successfully attack that many troops (especially given the unfair rule that makes the human player act as an attacker when the same province is simultaneously attacked by an AI faction). The Sicilian killed the Pope and guess what happened three years later in Rome after I had just managed to repell the Sicilians' attempt to come out of the Papal States ... Morality: try to make sure that the Pope is confined to the Papal States but leave him with enough troops to avoid rebellions whatever the tax rate he selects ....

[Prussian1]

So - is the size of the resurgence based on the size of the occupying armies or the facilities in the province?

I'd hate to destroy everything in Rome :embarassed:

But would be glad to leave an army of peasants there just to keep the peace.

[Musket]

I think it is yes. I conquered the papacy twice, once playing as England and the second playing as the Holy Roman Empire. The first time, playing as England, I garrisoned Rome with about 400 men and the Pope re-appeared with 800. When playing as the HRE, I kept over 1,200 men there this time, but the pope appeared with 2,000.

Another thing is, the Pope's troops are very loyal and all believe vehemently in their cause. As a result, they are extremely strong opponents. In my opinion, the Papacy in the long run are the toughest opponents on Medieval Total War. You can just never beat them and keep them away.

[BAD]

One thing I noticed is the Papacy always comes back with more men than the last re-emergence. Gonna have to eventually do that game where I see how many times I can take out the Pope. :beam:

[Martok]

So - is the size of the resurgence based on the size of the occupying armies or the facilities in the province?

I'd hate to destroy everything in Rome :embarassed:

But would be glad to leave an army of peasants there just to keep the peace.
The size of re-emergences are primarily determined by the size of the garrison you have defending the province in which the new army appears. So it's better to have a small army in Rome than a large one. After all, you can always keep a big army in a neighboring province and move them in after the Pope reappears. ~D

[caravel]

I remember someone posting about how they had defeate the Papacy about 10 or more times and eventually they stopped reapperaing?!

The best fix for the Papacy is if you can isolate him on Malta without a florin to his name. :beam:

:sweatdrop:

[Etym]

I remember someone posting about how they had defeate the Papacy about 10 or more times and eventually they stopped reapperaing?!

The best fix for the Papacy is if you can isolate him on Malta without a florin to his name.

In the numerology section over at the Shogun Total War website, there's a comment from one of the programmer/developers about re-emergence design factors. The Pope will ALWAYS re-emerge - it's part of the game.

Therefore, IMHO, "the best fix for the Papacy" is to leave them 'til last. If the game ends when you take him down, there's no future in which to re-emerge. Otherwise, like in GA, I do my best to ignore him. If he starts up with me, I do what macsen_rufus said earlier: take Rome, kill most of his army in the Papal States, and let the siege go on indefinitely. If the castle is going to fall of it's own accord, I'll back out of the province and let him have it back - with a pitifully small army left, he won't be causing any more trouble. What was it Stalin said? "The Pope? How many divisions does he have, anyway?"

[Prussian1]

Perhaps I should have let him try to finish off the Sicilians?

One of the real challenges of playing the HRE is economy of force, usually requiring consolidation of border provinces. Keeping tabs on the Papal States requires garrisons in Venice, Tuscany, Rome and Naples.

As mentioned, the Sicilians had already taken Rome and the Pope was at war with them.

Perhaps a better plan is to take Rome, then attack Naples and Sicily themselves. However, I will withdraw before the ultimate defeat, "allowing" the Papacy to take these Provinces. I can then Take Naples and the Papal States, leaving the Pope effectively confined in Sicily and requiring only a border force in Naples :2thumbsup:

Then, after the asault on Sicily, withdraw, then send in the Holy Roman Diplomatic Corps to effect Sovreign Change . . . effectively dealing with the excommunication problem :beam:

[Jxrc]

I can then Take Naples and the Papal States, leaving the Pope effectively confined in Sicily and requiring only a border force in Naples :2thumbsup

Not a good idea IMHO. With a little upgrade and a basic trade network, Sicily can generate a substantial income that greatly exceeds the aggregate of the rather small income generated by the Papal State and the maintenance cost of the three additional garrison that you will need to keep the Pope in check. That is even truer if you manage to leave the Pope stuck in the Papal States with an army of about 400 men since in that case each of your four armies needs only to have something like 500 men.

Always a bit a pity to leave aside province that grants a one star bonus but if you compare with the nearby province that's the best solution since if you leave the Pope in:

Venice: you loose a massive income and have to guard Croatia, Austria, Tyrolia, Milan, Tuscany and the Papal States - Not an option at all;
Milan: You loose a nice income, HRE GA points and have to keep garrison in Provence, Burgundy, Tyrolia, Venice, Tuscany and Genoa - Not an option at all IMHO;
Tuscany: you loose a very nice income, HRE GA points, Iron, +1 valor to UM and need to keep garrison in Genoa, Milan, Rome, Venice and Papal States- Not an option at all IMHO;
Rome: you loose an usually rather well developped province, a nice title, HRE GA points and need to keep garrison in Tuscany, the Papal States and Naples - possible option but I would not recommend it unless there nothing else to do;
Naples: you loose a very nice trade income, HRE GA points and need to keep garrions in Sicily, Rome and the Papal States -- Not a nice option IMHO;

Of course the best solution would be to keep the Pope on its own in Malta, Cyprus, Crete or Rhodes (or even Corsica and/or Sardigna) but honestly I have never seen the Pope going that far ... Just my two cents

[Prussian1]

ConFOUND it!!! :wall: :wall:


Pulled my garrison out of Rome, except for a single unit of Peasants and the bugger STILL brought about five stacks with him!!

This is a restart-game. The provinces he held just prior to getting the HRE stomp-down were Naples and the Papal States.

Im baffled . . . .