View Full Version : Creative Assembly Can someone explain why this unit routed OR Is this bug fixed in the p
The game is a Custom Battle 2v2 on a map I created (which is actually available at www.wam.umd.edu/~jinman/JRock2v1.zip (http://www.wam.umd.edu/~jinman/JRock2v1.zip) ).
I had a unit of Teutonic Knights that I just pulled out of combat along with it's two group-mate units because a unit of Nubian Spearmen were bearing down on them. I sent two units of Chivalric Sergeants in to stop the Nubians from chasing my knights and crush them.
The Knights, all with immense valour and morale, follow my orders... except one, for no valid reason, ROUTS. And each of the THREE times I was allowed to rally them, it did no good. The third time they actually almost came back for a split second but the Rally trumpet sounded right away again and they continued to flee.
Here is a pic of them routing and a pic to prove their Valour and Morale:
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~jinman/whyrout1.jpg
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~jinman/whyrout2.jpg
Is there any explanation for this?
I am still currently playing the game (I have it paused and minimized) but I will try to remember to save a replay just in case it happens in the replay too. Be back later when I have the replay.
Oops, I just realized this is the game I left sitting at the "Begin Battle" screen for like three hours while I went out. So the beginning of the replay is very long and very boring, LOL. It's also 1.22MB in size. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
I will try to sit here and wait out the intro with time compression and see if the one unit still routs. If so I will post it.
What does the morale explanation text say?
In the replay, "happy that flanks are protected" etc.........
Honestly it's taking over half an hour in fast-forward 100% speed to get to the setup part of the battle so let me go watch and see...
edit - up to almost an hour of fast forwarding. yarrr...
edit again - battle just started. About 50mins of fast forwarding to get to start. LOL
[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 10-03-2002).]
vOkay I figured it out:
"Disheartened by Constant Retreat"
This occurred because I rapidly clicked on a spot I wanted them to move to, because that's the only way to get mounted units to move away from combat.
God forbid one stupid horse comes in contact with an enemy unit - it pulls the entire unit back into battle. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif
The way to avoid this: rapidly click where you want them to go so they stop trying to go back into combat.
The problem: Apparently there's a random chance this will cause the unit to rout.
Solution? None available at this time.
Further screenshots? Pointless because mouse-over data is not shown in them, so you can't see what the unit's status is. =\
Was it fixed in the patch so that a random horse in a unit that is moving to a new location, who gets into contact with an enemy, doesn't cause the entire unit to about-face and come back into combat instead of following the order to move to a certain spot? Will it be fixed?
Because even though their morale and valour are tops, they can be routed simply because the game interprets rapid commands as "Constant Retreat".
I wouldn't have to do that if the stupid horse units didn't constantly head back into battle as soon as one of their last units gets caught by a chasing enemy when they move. I guess the whole issues stems from how horse units have to get in their silly little formation first before moving anywhere. This usually causes a couple of the horses to get caught by the enemy if they're close enough, and that drags the whole unit into combat. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 10-03-2002).]
Not a perfect solution, but still....... Put them on hold formation briefly during the time you want to disengage until they are clear. They should try and follow the leader, and therefore be less prone to plunge back into combat. If they're on engage at will, as soon as one gets caught up, they'll all hurry back to help. In hold formation, they'll still form the square, but will be more likely to walk away. At least that's my experience with it. Hope it helps http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-03-2002).]
As Gil explained in another post, "Disheartened by Constant Retreat" is result from the type of movement in which unit is ordered to move away from it oppenent too often. If you want, you can read the explaination by Gil here.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/002329.html
I guess, if you order the unit to withdraw to get it to disengage then give it another destination before it withdraw from battlefield would be better way.
[This message has been edited by pdoan8 (edited 10-03-2002).]
Nobunaga0611
10-03-2002, 12:18
Yup I had the same problem with a unit of mine, and the wierd thing was I wasn't even making small retreats like Gil said it might be. I was in SP, pushing the enemy all over the map, they were actually retreating a lot. I just kept my men together and slowly kept marching behind them. My army stopped in formation, with the enemy still far away, then, out of nowhere, a full unit of feudal sergeants just runs off the field. They wouldn't rally at all, just ran off the field. Doesn't bother me as much as it is funny. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Benny Hill, the spoiler of many STW battles is still here.
Azmogeddon
10-03-2002, 20:16
I find that hitting Ctrl-W to withdraw will pull a unit out of combat and stop them from re-entering if one man gets stuck. Just make sure you cancel the order once they are all free! I frequently use this on bridge maps to rotate sergeant units around when they get exhausted.
------------------
Azmo
[long-time lurker]
GAH!
Add to that that this unit was a Teutonic kinigit. Gil (or somebody from CA) once said that Teutonic kinigits have a tendency to act on their own, unlike some other kinigit units. So... you can tell them a million times to get out of there. But will they listen? Noooooo!
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Vanya sez... that one bastid thought the rest of his company was getting 4 feathers... so he decided to fend off the marauding pigs all by himself to show his true colors. A valiant lad to the end.
GAH!
I'll have to give CTRL+W another shot. Anything is better than losing an entire unit to routing because they wouldn't disengage. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif
In real life, if you're in a unit that you've been with for years, with buddies that you trust your life with, would do anything for, would you leave one of them to face horrible odds alone?
It's not all that far-fetched that a unit that gets one or two men caught in a meat-grinder would have the remaining men charge back in to help. It's frustrating for you, the general (it's happened many times to me in my campaigns), especially when it's the general's unit and you know the result will be a rout of that unit (and subsequently a bad vice that eliminate's the generals usefulness). But its believable that a unit of tight-knit men wouldn't want to leave a man behind.
Take for example the modern US military. "Leave no man behind" is a motto (forget which branches follow it, if not all). The US military will go to extraordinary lengths to recover one pilot shot down behind enemy lines, for example. There's a famous case of this in Viet-Nam, where a scout plane pilot (forget which type) was shot down, and I think a dozen men lost their lives trying to rescue the one man. I think there was a movie made of that incident.
Now, of course, we see the other side of the equation, when our carefully laid plans go awry because one soldier gets caught by the enemy and your critical unit throws itself into a no-win scenario in an attempt to save him. I, too, if I were a soldier fighting a battle, would rush back in to near-certain death to save my buddy, but I also can see how that could be a big problem for the people in charge of the army.
I've heard repeatedly that what keeps soldiers going in gruelling and lengthy campaigns is not his home, or his loved ones, or the leader barking at them to rush that machine-gun nest. It's his buddy, the people he lives with and fights with and shares fox-holes with. That is what often keeps him going. Ask him to give that up, and you too might see disobediant men who might refuse to fight.
Here's another rationalization: Your knights tried like heck to rescue their trapped buddy. Your general repeatedly ordered them to leave him behind. He dies (or is maybe freed, I haven't watched the movie), and your knights think: This is BS! We're out of here, we're not following the orders of some ******* general who doesn't give a **** about us or our buddies! If the general had any skill at all, he/we wouldn't have been in that predicament in the first place! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
longjohn2
10-04-2002, 01:16
If you keep clicking in the same place, it doesn't count for benny hill count.
Also when disengaging, make sure the point you click on is far enough away. If it isn't then some men may still be engaged when the leader arrives at his new position, and the unit is considered to have finished disengaging. It may charge back in then.
Units do sometimes have trouble breaking off for other reasons. I'll admit I don't know why, but I'm not sure that making break offs easier would improve the game, so I'm not worrying about it.
It's not the actual "disengagement" that is the issue. Heck, I'd already beaten the enemy unit I was fighting. They were running away. My unit disengaged fine.
It's this rout that brought up a problem:
Horse units getting all bent out of shape trying to get in formation before following orders.
So if I click rapidly on the EXACT SAME SPOT, I should be okay and avoid causing a rout? I will try that next time it happens. Thanks for the advice.
Real quickly though, let me go through the chain of events, just to reiterate the problems:
1 - Horse unit engages enemy unit.
2 - Horse unit kills enough enemies to cause their unit to run away. Meanwhile another nearby enemy unit is closing in on my horse unit.
3 - Instead of letting my horse unit chase the fleeing enemy, I order them back to the safety of my own spear units.
4 - In following my order, the way horse units seem to work, they insist on standing around and reorganizing their order until their leader is in front and everyone else is in position before they actually MOVE to follow my order.
5 - In this length of time the enemy unit closes and rushes at my horse unit.
6 - If the enemy happens to engage one or two of the horses in the back of the horse unit's formation, the entire horse unit then turns and decides to engage instead of following my orders.
In reality my orders should supercede that engagement and those engaged should be considered "rear guard delayers" since my order is considered a "retreat" by the game.
Instead they just all get retarded and run back into battle against a 100man spear unit and die (or I can try to keep clicking until they follow my order... although in this occurance they routed.
Also, apparently "disheartened by constant retreat" is an un-rallyable rout. Plus it doesn't show a modifier to that unit's information on the F1 screen. Their morale still showed 16 or whatever it was at.
Is this acceptable? It seems highly convoluted or at the very least, contradictory. No?
Also, perhaps it could be made that the horse units can acquire their proper formation while already on the move instead of having to get in formation first. This would solve the problem at the heart of the issue. Besides, in reality if you're about to be attacked by a massive spear unit and your general orders you to retreat, I would think getting the heck out of there would be the priority, not perfection of your formation. You can reform once you are in safety, as they would in reality. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 10-03-2002).]
Slight clarification upon checking the screenshots I took again:
The unit that routed wasn't even the one who was having issues staying out of combat - it was another of my horse units. Now this issue is totally crazy.
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~jinman/1.jpg
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~jinman/2.jpg
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~jinman/3.jpg
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~jinman/4.jpg
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~jinman/5.jpg
So the issue isn't even with trying to keep a unit from turning around and fighting an enemy that engages one of its horses, it's with having all three horse units selected and ordering them out of combat together, and one of them deciding to rout...
Maybe the solution is to not rapidly click away from combat with the entire group of 3 horse units and only do it with the one unit that is actually trying to head into combat. Perhaps my error was in having the whole Group selected...?
But still then - why would a unit that is (one even engaged in combat) rout because you click it rapidly to a certain location?
[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 10-03-2002).]
Dionysus9
10-04-2002, 05:17
JRock--
This feature as been part of Total War since its inception. It is included to stop an opponent from constantly running away from battle. As I understand it, if you click AWAY from the enemy enough times, your unit will rout. I don't know how many clicks it takes before they run off, but it will happen eventually.
I remember one game against AMP's dastardly All-Kensai army. We finally had a nice wall of guns up against his remaining 5 or 6 kensai. He couldnt face us head on so he kept trying to fall back until he could hide in some trees or something. We would always follow and just before we would get into firing range again he would fall back. So....eventually his units auto-routed because he would not allow them to fight. They just said "Heck Amp, if you want us to run off without a fight, we'd be happy to oblige."
Anyway, I think normally it is a good feature. The fact that you are only now running into one isolated problem suggests it works right 99% of the time. In this one instance you must have clicked away from the enemy a TON of times. Keep it to 3 or 4 double clicks and you should have any problem.
Bacchus
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