AI battles

[Hooahguy]

i was just reading how HA's suck in auto-calc, so it got me thinking: are the battles that the AI fight with each other unbalanced? a HA heavy full stack may lose to a half stack of infantry through auto-calc. now, if we were fighting that battle, it would be different, obviously. so does that mean that all the battles that the AI fight with each other are unfair?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Auto-calc takes weird things into account. Some certain factors seem to be ignored entirely. For example, a ten star general with a unit of pantodapoi could defeat a whole stack, because autocalc over estimates command stars. Also, certain unit types are over/under-estimated. Chariots do great in autocalc, HAs do poorly.

It seems, some times, that the auto-calc compares attack, defense, unit number, and command stars, without much else looked at (including formations, special abilities, and fighting styles [like HAs not actually going into melee]).

[overweightninja]

I think using VH or H difficulty skews it a fair bit too.

[Aradan]

Actually there is a way to balance auto-resolve now, according to one's personal taste... Look to the bottom of the Guide (I hope you don't mind a bit of shameless self-promotion)

Complete EDU Guide (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=88859)

Auto-calc still ignores fortifications and overpoweres command stars, but things are much better now, and using a script one can make auto-resolving siege-assaults a nightmare for the attacker.

[Tellos Athenaios]

From what I've seen: missile units in general usually tend to fare much worse in auto-calc than in played battles; and phalanxes seem to make a much more massive impact in auto-calc too.

[Seyduna]

@Aradan:

The second value of stat_health can be used to improve the balance of auto-resolve. Certain units like chariots are currently overpowered in it, while other like mounted and missile units are underpowered. Here follow some rough suggestions on how to assign sec hp values in order to balance auto-resolve more evenly:

* Animal units stay as they are.
* All other units get 5 sec hps.
* Units with 2 or more prim hps get -1 sec hp for each extra prim one.
* Missile units with low-medium missile attack get +1 sec hp.
* Missile units with medium-high missile attack get +2 sec hps.
* Mounted units with low-medium charge get +1 sec hp.
* Mounted units with medium-high charge get +2 sec hps.


Nice work there! Your suggestions are reasonable and I would like to see these in EB. It would nerf heavy infantry-based factions over cavalry or missile-based factions. I want to give it a try in my campaign but EDU file is so large to make changes.:laugh4:

[bovi]

Most horse archers and horse javelineers are given another hit point for autocalc this way in the next version. We fear that it may be too effective though.

[Megas Methuselah]

Speaking of which, when is the next version?
:beam:

[Aradan]

@ Bovi; Imho, giving +5 all around as a base roughly balances every other unit with animal units so that elephants and espeially chariots don't kick butts in auto-calc, plus it has the advantage that the HA bonus of +1 hp is now only 20% compared to the other units, whereas otherwise it would be 100%, and therefore won't overpower them... High sec hps all around also means fewer casualties (in auto-calc) which I *think* is more historically accurate.

[bovi]

Adding 5 all over will make infantry complete pushovers. No can do.

[bovi]

Although, I am under the impression that added hitpoints for infantry have no effect. If they do, this would be a good approach, and would only cause headaches for balancing the elephants and chariots (whose mount hitpoints are also taken into consideration in player-controlled battles).

[Aradan]

Ah, I think you missed the Guide update. Let me quote myself:



On the second value of the stat_health line:

[hp_extra] : Hit points of animals of the unit. Note that ridden horses are not assigned separate hitpoints. Max value is 15, as everything higher will still be considered 15. Note that this value, even though being ignored during battle-map mode for non-animal units, it is actually taken into account for auto-resolve for all units. See below at Related Information.


Excerpt from the Related Info part:

The second value of stat_health can be used to improve the balance of auto-resolve. Certain units like chariots are currently overpowered in it, while other like mounted and missile units are underpowered. Here follow some rough suggestions on how to assign sec hp values in order to balance auto-resolve more evenly:


Animal units stay as they are.
All other units get 5 sec hps.
Units with 2 or more prim hps get -1 sec hp for each extra prim one.
Missile units with low-medium missile attack get +1 sec hp.
Missile units with medium-high missile attack get +2 sec hps.
Mounted units with low-medium charge get +1 sec hp.
Mounted units with medium-high charge get +2 sec hps.



The global +5 is exactly meant to negate the huge bonuses chariots and elephants get in auto-resolve because of their own secondary hps. That said, being a one-man team it takes time to come up with very precise values, so these are rough suggestions, not completely thoroughly tested.

[Sarkiss]

Most horse archers and horse javelineers are given another hit point for autocalc this way in the next version. We fear that it may be too effective though.
horse archers should be able to kick some ass. all infantry army versus all HA imo should ideally be annihilated, or if its not take very heavy casualties.
silly question perhaps... but is terrain taken into consideration by auto resolve?

[Mediteran]

so um what do i have to do to make the auto resolve battles better? i dont understand that edu thing :D

[bovi]

so um what do i have to do to make the auto resolve battles better? i dont understand that edu thing :D
Then you'd probably better not.


horse archers should be able to kick some ass. all infantry army versus all HA imo should ideally be annihilated, or if its not take very heavy casualties.
silly question perhaps... but is terrain taken into consideration by auto resolve?
I don't think terrain is taken into consideration.


Ah, I think you missed the Guide update. Let me quote myself:



The global +5 is exactly meant to negate the huge bonuses chariots and elephants get in auto-resolve because of their own secondary hps. That said, being a one-man team it takes time to come up with very precise values, so these are rough suggestions, not completely thoroughly tested.

That global +5 will render our elephants rather useless in autocalc, as ours only have 2 extra hit points instead of vanilla's 10 or 12, I can't remember. Our chariots have no extra hitpoints for mounts (which seems like a bug actually, I'll ask about this in EBH).

Still, we could perhaps increase secondary hp by 1 round bout. This would reduce the effect of the HA's extra one, if we decide they get too hard-hitting with base 0.

[Watchman]

horse archers should be able to kick some ass. all infantry army versus all HA imo should ideally be annihilated, or if its not take very heavy casualties.The spearman-archer tag-team was a wee bit of problem for them when properly used, though...

...well, okay, the combination of sufficient missile troops with heavy infantry in general when properly used, really. Ask the Parthians how much fun they had dealing with the Romans once the latter learned the lesson and stacked up on archers and slingers.

Or the Turks how nice the Crusader States' armoured spears - crossbows tactics were to face.

[Sarkiss]

The spearman-archer tag-team was a wee bit of problem for them when properly used, though...

...well, okay, the combination of sufficient missile troops with heavy infantry in general when properly used, really. Ask the Parthians how much fun they had dealing with the Romans once the latter learned the lesson and stacked up on archers and slingers.

Or the Turks how nice the Crusader States' armoured spears - crossbows tactics were to face.
i asked them ages ago and what they told me was all infantry army versus all HA should ideally be annihilated:laugh4:
no doubts, a substantial missile support is needed to successfully counter such a mobile hit and run force.
what pisses me off is to see how all phalanx (typically Ptolies, AS) army utterly destroy predominanetly missile, all cavalry army in auto resolve...

[Watchman]

what pisses me off is to see how all phalanx (typically Ptolies, AS) army utterly destroy predominanetly missile, all cavalry army in auto resolve...Point. :sweatdrop:

[The Wandering Scholar]

This could be the reason that Egypt always expand but Synthia never do. Blatantly unbalanced.

[marodeur]

This could be the reason that Egypt always expand but Synthia never do. Blatantly unbalanced.

Synthia? What faction do you mean?

[Seyduna]

He wanted to write Scythia and meant Sauromatae, I guess :)

[marodeur]

He wanted to write Scythia and meant Sauromatae, I guess :)
Under those circumstances I can only agree with him.

[The Wandering Scholar]

Yh I did sorry for the confusion, vanilla names just stick with me.
I meant the Ptollies and the Steppies.