Global scrimishers

[placenik]

I know that lots of people here use hit&run tactics but I would like to have you share thoughts and tactics about global scrimishing- attack with small force, make as much dammage as you can, and retreat before you get beaten.

I usually use single unit of fastest HA I can get and ride them around enemy formation untill I am out of arrows.

Any other ideas?

[Charge]

I know that lots of people here use hit&run tactics
I use and prefer hit&CRUSH tactics.

Single unit doesnt make sense. It's easy to control, but it wont do much damage. Take more units, group them (not with in-game feature), and make them fire in the enemy's backs..

[Telys]

I personally dont go out with a small army to with the intent to weaken and retreat. Sometimes i will bribe an enemy army and, if its units are the same as mine ie early greek and macedonian armies, I will turn it around and attack the closest army I can find with absolutely no chance in winning. Mostly to weaken the enemy army. Then I'll disband the survivors.

[Charge]

I personally dont go out with a small army to with the intent to weaken and retreat. Sometimes i will bribe an enemy army and, if its units are the same as mine ie early greek and macedonian armies, I will turn it around and attack the closest army I can find with absolutely no chance in winning. Mostly to weaken the enemy army. Then I'll disband the survivors.
That wont work either - small weak army is likely to flee easily instead of making damage and will do much better in big army.

[Quirinus]

The rationale, I think, is that it was the enemy's troops anyway.

I think hit-and-run tactics are sometimes necessary for HA-dependent factions like Parthia, Scythia and Numidia. Train up a full- or even half-stack of low-tier HAs, shoot the enemy, withdraw when out of arrows. It's not ideal (a lot of casualties get healed, especially because missile fire seems to wound less mortally), but sometimes it's an effective and cheap way to dispose of that annoying army of hoplites carrying long pointy sticks.

[placenik]

That wont work either - small weak army is likely to flee easily instead of making damage and will do much better in big army.
Well I was not doing that either, but can you tell me other way to destroy full stack Macedon army with 4 scythian HAs? Of course without casulties.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

I think hit-and-run tactics are sometimes necessary for HA-dependent factions like Parthia, Scythia and Numidia. Train up a full- or even half-stack of low-tier HAs, shoot the enemy, withdraw when out of arrows. It's not ideal (a lot of casualties get healed, especially because missile fire seems to wound less mortally), but sometimes it's an effective and cheap way to dispose of that annoying army of hoplites carrying long pointy sticks.Early on in the game I do find this strategy the best. Later on, however, it can be easier and faster to fight with some slightly better cavalry, Cataphracts and the suchlike, in addition to horse archers.

It's a bit of an exploit, yet AI doesn't really have the sense to remain stationary and not chase when their troops are being fired at. This leaves vulnerable flanks, which these more weighty cavalry can charge into, withdraw and charge again - its often inadvisable to stay in melee long, since, if not fully broken up, the troops usually forget the ranged horse archer and turn around with their big pointy sticks fairly quickly.

~:)

[Phoenix]

In my Parthian campaign, I never had to use hit-and-run tactics, in the early part of the campaign I'd just surround and fire at the enemy from all sides until I ran out of of ammunition and then charged down the survivors with the General's Bodyguard.

[The Wandering Scholar]

Massed velites vs barbarians are a good strategy, 10 or so with general and one/two cav units. They own Gauls. In a two deep line they'll rout many units before combat, ones that are not routed will be weakened. Then velites can hold their own untill the cav flank. Quite fun watching an army run from a load of short romans in bear skins.

[Punicus]

I, too, have never had to use this tactic, even as Parthia. I'm sure that by the time you've run out of arrows (assuming you've got at least a half stack of horse archers), the enemy will be so weak and out of morale that just using the mass cavalry charge/flank method will make them break and run. Then you can start a chain rout, especially with early Egyptian units. I've almost never had a defeat using that strategy.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

Hit and Run tactics are fun, but you have to be able to give out the commands extremely fast, otherwise you end up with a lot of units lost to friendly fire.
If you want to be able to give the commands to those range units much faster, I would reccomend using hotkeys. They deliver the command much faster than simply using the mouse.
To help you learn an effective configuration, I'd reccomend using one I created. You can locate the link to it in my signature.:7detective:

[Quirinus]

It's a bit of an exploit, yet AI doesn't really have the sense to remain stationary and not chase when their troops are being fired at. This leaves vulnerable flanks, which these more weighty cavalry can charge into, withdraw and charge again - its often inadvisable to stay in melee long, since, if not fully broken up, the troops usually forget the ranged horse archer and turn around with their big pointy sticks fairly quickly.
Yes, but this could be a legitimate strategy too. I've noticed that the hoplites (or any other unit) tend to chase more valuable troops (in this case the cataphracts), which leaves their backs open to a lethal barrage of arrows from the aforementioned horse archers.


Massed velites vs barbarians are a good strategy, 10 or so with general and one/two cav units. They own Gauls. In a two deep line they'll rout many units before combat, ones that are not routed will be weakened. Then velites can hold their own untill the cav flank. Quite fun watching an army run from a load of short romans in bear skins.
Ooh, this is an interesting tactic. I will try that the next time I play the Julii. Though don't the very fast barbarian cavalry usually catch up and shred the hapless velites?

[Caius]

Ooh, this is an interesting tactic. I will try that the next time I play the Julii. Though don't the very fast barbarian cavalry usually catch up and shred the hapless velites?
The trick (I guess) is to charge your cavalry against the enemy cavalry. But I think the velites can shoot them and hit with pila.

[placenik]

OK, looks like noone likes skirmishing here.

First, if you use 1 HA against full stack, HA will not rout unless engaged melee (and if they are, then you have seriously screwd up something). Yes they will be shaken/steady, but they will shoot.
At the begining of game number of enemies killed with single basic HA should be around 70, 50 if you have to fight heavy cavalery or decent hoplites.
Bigger enemy formation is, better- if they chase you they will distroy their lines, if they don't run around as if you are trying to get behind their lines, AI will try to make shield wall facing you and disrupting line again.

Potentialy dangerous units to face:
Other HAs- anihilate them first on any cost, or don't attack at all.
Javelin light cavalery- only shooting unit faster than HA, keep distance and try not to provoke them in chase. When chase starts, start runing and shooting, then press W, and get out of there before you get javelined. Their armour sucks, so you should be able to eliminate at least half unit of them, before you run.
Light cavalery- they are NOT faster than you, shoot in move untill out of arrows, then withdraw.
Heavy cavalery- you are faster, ignore them.


Velites VS barb cavalery- barbarian cavalery has moral 4, if they don't do colective charge, they will get butcered and routed.

[The Wandering Scholar]

The trick (I guess) is to charge your cavalry against the enemy cavalry. But I think the velites can shoot them and hit with pila.

You have the idea Caius. Weak FM are good for this. You know the ones, well bred but useless.

[Quirinus]

placenik, you forgot to mention skirmishers and archers. In a medium- to large-sized army, archers will be protected behind flanks, from which they will decimate your HAs. Even if they're not that well-protected by other troops, you will still lose in an arrow duel, due to your lower numbers. Charge them and you might rout them, but you will lose quite a lot of your own HAs. So IMO, pitting one HA against a full-stack is not a very viable strategy, as there's a good chance that a full-stack will have a few skirmishers/archers.

A mass of HAs, that's a different kettle of fish.

[placenik]

placenik, you forgot to mention skirmishers and archers. In a medium- to large-sized army, archers will be protected behind flanks, from which they will decimate your HAs. Even if they're not that well-protected by other troops, you will still lose in an arrow duel, due to your lower numbers. Charge them and you might rout them, but you will lose quite a lot of your own HAs. So IMO, pitting one HA against a full-stack is not a very viable strategy, as there's a good chance that a full-stack will have a few skirmishers/archers.

A mass of HAs, that's a different kettle of fish.
Well, if you want to exploit dumbness of AI you can even win archer duel- foot archers can't shoot while moving. Of course if they outrange you, you need better HA :laugh4: But even with better range archers, AI will try to chase you. Just stay out of range, and kill other units. a+ archers will not fire while mass-mixed with other units. Thrust me, I had to fight some Cretans very early, it is just trickier than it should be.
Scrimishers with javelines are your easiest target- poor armor and lower range than you.

[Quirinus]

Oh.... I see. I was under the impression that horse archers had lower range than foot archers.

BTW, I tried, without much success, to do this kind of skirmisher tactics with Roman cavalry auxilia against a Pontic army. Didn't go down very well-- the javelins were pretty effective at decimating the infantry, but the chariots shot me to pieces. Should I have targeted the chariots, you think?

[placenik]

Oh.... I see. I was under the impression that horse archers had lower range than foot archers.

BTW, I tried, without much success, to do this kind of skirmisher tactics with Roman cavalry auxilia against a Pontic army. Didn't go down very well-- the javelins were pretty effective at decimating the infantry, but the chariots shot me to pieces. Should I have targeted the chariots, you think?
OK, as a matter of fact both basic archers and HAs have range 120. Advanced archers and advanced HAs (Cataphrat archers, Parthian cavalery, Schytian noble archers, Schytian noble women), have range 170. I know, but game IS that dumb :( (Data for 1.5) And AI is dumb enough to chase yo with light infantry, so archers will run well behind them, and in most cases too much behind them.


Chariots are tough to beat, you can make them run amoc, but killing is another thing. I usually stay out of their way, and find better targets. Also good practice is to try to stay on high ground.
In your case you were using short range javelin cavalery, so you didn't have any chance against chariots (see my previous comment about light cavalery VS HA). Kill infantry and get out of there before they smash you is tactics there. Or better go to Bosforus and hire some real HAs ;) extra range helps.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

I don't believe that firing at the chariots first would have had much of an effect - the chariots may have taken some losses, but you would have needed to have caught up with them first, taking many losses in the meantime. This could be problematic, since the enemy usually keep missile units as far away from attackers as possible when they are attacking.

The general problem with javelin troops is their lack of a sizeable level of ammunition before they are forced to go hand-to-hand. This is semi-negated by the increased power of the javelins, but archers overall can cause quite a bit more damage than javelin based troops. Also they have the weakness of a lower range, making it easier for archers, in this case chariot archers, to decimate them before they are within the range of the enemy.

~:)

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

I know that lots of people here use hit&run tactics but I would like to have you share thoughts and tactics about global scrimishing- attack with small force, make as much dammage as you can, and retreat before you get beaten.

I usually use single unit of fastest HA I can get and ride them around enemy formation untill I am out of arrows.

Any other ideas?

If you do this repeatedly does this effect (increase) the enemy generals rating at all or are thebattles ot insignifcant as only one unnit is involved?

[placenik]

If you do this repeatedly does this effect (increase) the enemy generals rating at all or are thebattles ot insignifcant as only one unnit is involved?

They get command stars, but rearly, and it looks like they are capped to 4 (not sure about this)
To be honest, I don't care, they die soon enough :smash:

[The Wandering Scholar]

Does it improve their command stars or number of bodyguards?

[placenik]

Improves command stars only.
Bodyguards mostly decline due to arrow rain ;)

BTW, if you are worried by general and his stars, kill him first. One unit of basic HAs is usually enough for ~40 general cavalery, and about 20-30 eastern general cavalery (javelines are pointy)

[The Wandering Scholar]

(javelines are pointy)

As opposed to arrows :beam:

:medievalcheers: for info... :balloon:

[Quintus.JC]

Clump your Skirmishers/Archers/Horse Archers into masses and concentrate on one single unit. I first did this with the Huns and the result are 100% positive. after a couple of hits the enemy unit was down and out. after that you could move on to other units.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

To get the best bang for your buck (or volley in this case):
1)Fire when the enemy is moving (not running)
2)Fire into their flanks
3)Fire into their backs
4)Fire when they are clumped together
5)Don't fire when target is in Phalanx or testudo formation (obviously)
6)Fire from hilltop [thanks to placenik]

Did I miss anything?

[placenik]

Yep
6) fire from hilltop if you can

[Good Ship Chuckle]

Of course, how could I forget? I just added it in.
Maybe my post will become a miniguide. Surely, as long as people keep thinking of stuff.

[The Wandering Scholar]

Fire with a greater range (obviously)

[placenik]

Fire with a greater range (obviously)
Actually just opposite- fire at point blanc range if you possibly can :laugh4:

[Quintus.JC]

firing from point blank range does more damage and has more accuracy.

-Use flaming ammo.

[The Wandering Scholar]

Actually just opposite- fire at point blanc range if you possibly can :laugh4:

huh? I thought it was about winning an archery duel

[Good Ship Chuckle]

Well yes, point blank is a good position in terms of accuracy and damage.
However, in terms of keeping your archers safe, point blank is not the place to be. Sure, you'll get one awesomely volley into that cavalry, and then they'll charge and tear you to shreds. lol

[placenik]

huh? I thought it was about winning an archery duel

About scrimishing, not archery duels.

BTW, another tricky strategy, viable only when facing dumbass AI- charge his archers with your HAs, fire at will on. AI will try to scrimish away. Just when you are about o hit them and engage melee, turn back and run out of range. Repeat.


However, in terms of keeping your archers safe, point blank is not the place to be. Sure, you'll get one awesomely volley into that cavalry, and then they'll charge and tear you to shreds. lol
Yes if you are using foot archery. For missile cavalery you can let anything slower than you to approach, and not to waste valuable ammo.

[Permenion]

erhh, as this is my first day here, i don't completely understand the abreviaitions... what does HA mean :s?

srry going off topic

[The Wandering Scholar]

HA= Horse Archer

Welcome, you pick it all up soon enough