Sexism in the Dictionary: Should Words Be Changed?

[gibsonsg91921]

Today in English, we started to have an open discussion on feminism. Mary Daly, uberfeminist extraordinaire, pointed out signs of sexism "inherent" in language, such as "history" or "women". She believes it should be feminine "herstory" when referring to women or the neutral "hystory," and that women should not have "men" in it, rather being "womyn."

Now I laughed at the preposterousness of such a proposal, but a look at the dictionary by my teacher changed my mind. Look at the definition of "man"


1. an adult male person, as distinguished from a boy or a woman.
2. a member of the species Homo sapiens or all the members of this species collectively, without regard to sex: prehistoric man.
3. the human individual as representing the species, without reference to sex; the human race; humankind: Man hopes for peace, but prepares for war.
4. a human being; person: to give a man a chance; When the audience smelled the smoke, it was every man for himself.
5. a husband.
6. a male lover or sweetheart.
7. a male follower or subordinate: the king's men. He's the boss's number one man.
8. a male employee or representative, esp. of a company or agency: a Secret Service man; a man from the phone company.
9. a male having qualities considered typical of men or appropriately masculine: Be a man. The army will make a man of you.
10. a male servant.
11. a valet.
12. enlisted man.
13. an enthusiast or devotee: I like jazz, but I'm essentially a classics man.
14. Slang. male friend; ally: You're my main man.
15. a term of familiar address to a man; fellow: Now, now, my good man, please calm down.
16. Slang. a term of familiar address to a man or a woman: Hey, man, take it easy.
17. one of the pieces used in playing certain games, as chess or checkers.
18. History/Historical. a liegeman; vassal.
19. Obsolete. manly character or courage.
20. the man, Slang. a. a person or group asserting authority or power over another, esp. in a manner experienced as being oppressive, demeaning, or threatening, as an employer, the police, or a dominating racial group.
b. a person or group upon whom one is dependent, as the drug supplier for an addict.
Also, the Man.
–verb (used with object)
21. to furnish with men, as for service or defense.
22. to take one's place for service, as at a gun or post: to man the ramparts.
23. to strengthen, fortify, or brace; steel: to man oneself for the dangers ahead.
24. Falconry. to accustom (a hawk) to the presence of men.
–interjection
25. Slang. an expression of surprise, enthusiasm, dismay, or other strong feeling: Man, what a ball game!
—Idioms
26. as one man, in complete agreement or accord; unanimously: They arose as one man to protest the verdict.
27. be one's own man, a. to be free from restrictions, control, or dictatorial influence; be independent: Now that he has a business he is his own man.
b. to be in complete command of one's faculties: After a refreshing nap he was again his own man.
28. man and boy, ever since childhood: He's been working that farm, man and boy, for more than 50 years.
29. man's man, a man who exemplifies masculine qualities.
30. to a man, with no exception; everyone; all: To a man, the members of the team did their best.

Take note of entry 9 saying qualities typically considered masculine, such as courage. In the dictionary at school, it said "manly" was courageous and brave. Now take a look at woman.


1. the female human being (distinguished from man).
2. an adult female person.
3. a female attendant to a lady of rank.
4. a wife.
5. the nature, characteristics, or feelings often attributed to women; womanliness.
6. a sweetheart or paramour; mistress.
7. a female employee or representative: A woman from the real estate agency called.
8. a female person who cleans house, cooks, etc.; housekeeper: The woman will be in to clean today.
9. women collectively: Woman is no longer subordinate to man.
–verb (used with object)
10. to put into the company of a woman.
11. to equip or staff with women.
12. Obsolete. to cause to act or yield like a woman.
–adjective
13. of women; womanly.
14. female: a woman plumber.


Several problems arise. Entry 6 defines a woman as an affair, "paramour" meaning an illicit lover. Entry 8 defines a woman as the housekeeper.

The dictionary is not the only double standard. For example, if a man has sex frequently, he is known as a "pimp" or "player." When a woman does, she's a "slut." If a man stays unmarried in his 40s, he's a free-spirited, swinging "bachelor." When a woman does, she's an old maid "spinster." Notice the problems?

Language change may seem dramatic, but in the 1970s Ms. as an address was still new. Think about it.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

What the dictonary says should not effect how men treat women, or vice versa. Our language evolved, it was not invented. Therefore, you cannot criticize individual words - they will change over a certain amount of time, as they always have. Dictonary definitions will as well.

By the way, did you get that entry from dictonary.com? It's precisely the same.

Also, Mary Daly is not a person I would necessarily trust. Her track record is rather interesting, for lack of a better word.

[gibsonsg91921]

Yeah, she seems like a nut.

And yes, I copied it from dictionary.com.

[Justiciar]

Give the girl a smack.

Weren't "man" and "human" switched at some point? Man meaning the species, Human meaning Husband-man, and Woman meaning Wife-man? All this "y" nonsense is bleedin' silly. Eh, and "history" isn't English in origin. Thus the his and story parts are not seperate elements. Whatsmoresir, the dictionary may well be sexist - but that isn't a reflection of the language, only the editor.

[Proletariat]

I think history should just be retermed 'vaginastory' so that way there won't be anymore hurt feelings or oppression on us. I can't wait until I get to tell me grandkids I actually had to grow up with this sort of sexual tyranny, but I persevered so that they could live in a world where men are emasculated ninnies and women have moustaches.

Hyperbole aside, I feel the way EMFM does. The words themselves are an absurd fight to pick. The words don't exist without the attitudes behind them, so why not start the focus there? You don't cure tumors without looking at cancer itself. This also isn't to say I even think there is still a fight to be fought when it comes to feminism.

[gibsonsg91921]

Yeah, I'm not saying history needs to be changed, etc. I think that one in particular is ridiculous. I was just throwing this out there, it's food for thought. Eat up, you tired dogs.

[ajaxfetish]

As a descriptivist, I maintain that the purpose of a dictionary is to represent language as it is used, not to make a statement of how it should be used. If anything is to change, it should be the way we as individuals use words. The dictionaries will follow once we give them something to follow. Ms. is not a word that was just added to the dictionaries, and then everyone decided to use it. There was a large push from the feminist movement to encourage people to use it to replace Mrs. or Miss, and although they brought a new word into the language, it was ultimately a failure as both Mrs. and Miss remain in common use today. Instead of removing the issue of marriage from women's titles and bringing them in line with those of men, Ms. just further muddied the issue.

Also, your comparisons are misleading. You note the 9th entry on man as a positive, and compare it to two entries on woman which you consider negative. Yet the entries in question are entirely unrelated. Entry #6 of woman, a sweetheart or paramour, is the equivalent of entry #6 of man, a male lover or sweetheart, and #8 of woman, a housekeeper, is the equivalent of #10 or #11 of man, a male servant or valet. I fail to see sexism in these dictionary definitions.

And Mary Daly's complaints have no basis in linguistics. She has not looked up the etymology of history, as the 'his' part has no relation to the male personal pronoun. It is ridiculous to suggest that letter combinations used in words which denote maleness cannot have a legitimate place in other, completely unrelated words. Is it sexist for Hercules to have 'her' in his name? Is this a sign of the female domination of men? She also seems to put a lot of weight into orthography, as I imagine the pronunciation of hystory and womyn would be the same as history and women, thus making her proposed changes entirely cosmetic and of no effect on spoken language.

I'm all for nonsexist and nondiscriminatory language, but some people take the idea to the point of absurdity.

Ajax

[Zim]

I had a longer response written with some Zim patented bad jokes, but my internet cut out and I lost it. :sweatdrop:

Suffice it to say I actually don't know many people who think this way, but most of the ones I've met are, to put it nicely, idiots. Interestingly, their mental level seems about equal to that of most of the people I've met that needlessly put "y"s into words in place of "i"s, either in the name of feminism or because they think it looks cool. :clown:


The dictionary is not the only double standard. For example, if a man has sex frequently, he is known as a "pimp" or "player." When a woman does, she's a "slut." If a man stays unmarried in his 40s, he's a free-spirited, swinging "bachelor." When a woman does, she's an old maid "spinster." Notice the problems?

Language change may seem dramatic, but in the 1970s Ms. as an address was still new. Think about it.

[Bijo]

I concur more or less with ajax.

[lars573]

*snip*

Ajax
I feel the need to interject this. The name Hercules is an invocation of female power you know. In it's greek form it's Heracles. Meaning glorious through Hera or glory of Hera.

[ajaxfetish]

Thank you, Lars. Clearly Hercules was not the best example. However there are plenty of other femininely coopted words. How about 'there,' 'ashes,' 'smashes,' or any similarly ending words, 'other,' 'father,' 'rather,' and so on.

Ajax

[Lemur]

She believes it should be feminine "herstory" when referring to women or the neutral "hystory," and that women should not have "men" in it, rather being "womyn."
Dude, 1980 called, and it wants its sexual warfare politics back.

[Gregoshi]

But I don't want to eat Hishe Kisses.

[Lemur]

And I refuse to be taken to my resting place in a hearse. I prefer a himse.

O, that way madness lies; let me shun that;
No more of that.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Now I laughed at the preposterousness of such a proposal, but a look at the dictionary by my teacher changed my mind.

I think this is telling, you thought it preposterous until you looked in a dictionary. So any sexism in language is only apparent if you research the origin of words? Then it isn't really there at all.

[HoreTore]

Finding the meaning of words in a language such as english, which is a complete mix of a dozen languages, becomes utter nonsense if you try doing that by comparing the words as they are now.

[Papewaio]

But I don't want to eat Hishe Kisses.

I take it they are cream filled. :inquisitive: :dizzy2:

[Brenus]

We don't have this problem in French. Words and nouns have gender... The main problem for ultra-feminist is France is female... Is it a hint of self-degradation? :beam: Don't think so...
But some still argue about some hight position which have only male form. Mmm la Présidente for ex, is the wife of the Président de la République. However, la Présidente of a bank is a title (or a function)...:beam:
A hurricane can be an "ouragan" (m) or "tempête tropicale" (f)...
In the 70', some were arguing that most of the destructive forces are female gender: LA guerre (war), une inondation (flooding) etc.:inquisitive:
The answer was they were Nature forces as well...

What made a word male or female in the french language is unknown, at least from me, but i don't think it is due to a perception of power...

[Raz]

The suffix -myn is so funny. If anybody from Australia remembers a show named "Sit-Down, Shut-Up" starring Stephen Curry you'll know why it's so funny. :laugh4:

[Husar]

I think history should just be retermed 'vaginastory' so that way there won't be anymore hurt feelings or oppression on us. I can't wait until I get to tell me grandkids I actually had to grow up with this sort of sexual tyranny, but I persevered so that they could live in a world where men are emasculated ninnies and women have moustaches.
:laugh4:

My opinion: Bollox.

I'd even say that's a problem of a dictionary, that the "his" in "history" could have anything to do with gender never ever occurred to me before, in Germany we say "die Geschichte" and the article clearly makes it a female word, I guess we will have to say "das Geschichte" from now on to make it neutral. :sweatdrop:

I think das Mary Daly is an attention her and should stop meddling around with language as language is a means of communication and even if it manages to change das language(die Sprache, another female word in german, I'm really starting to feel oppressed as I cannot even communicate without using something female :drama2: ) that won't stop me from insulting it if I really want to. Language is more than a bunch of lined up letters(smenoe tlod me taht we raed olny the fsrit and lsat lteetr aynawy and can raed a snatecne eevn if olny toshe are crorcet, jgdue for yuroslef) so changing only them won't do a lot about how (many) men think about women anyway.

[Fragony]

Dictionary should do nothing more then inform about language, wether or not the language is full of sexist or racist (look for jew in dutch dictionary) stereotypes doesn't matter.

[Sigurd]

If you want a sexist language, try Bergensk for a start. It has changed all gendered words to male.. even 'a girl' becomes male with the 'en' qualifier [en jente - jenten (m) vs. ei jente - jenta (f)]

[Ironside]

Bah, it's already proven that women dominates the world.

The femininum of master is mistress, and that is a word that is used on another place as well. Rule through the bedchamber. :laugh4:

[rory_20_uk]

No.

~:smoking:

[Adrian II]

Language reflects perceptions, it does not change them. If we were to call men 'X' and women 'Z' from now on, then 'X' and 'Z' would acquire the exact same connotations as 'man' and 'woman' before you can say 'useless feminist'.

[Viking]

Modern feminists.. :wall:

[Vladimir]

Give the girl a smack.

Weren't "man" and "human" switched at some point? Man meaning the species, Human meaning Husband-man, and Woman meaning Wife-man? All this "y" nonsense is bleedin' silly. Eh, and "history" isn't English in origin. Thus the his and story parts are not seperate elements. Whatsmoresir, the dictionary may well be sexist - but that isn't a reflection of the language, only the editor.

:laugh4: You're missing the point. It isn't about reason or fact, just emotion. This chick lacks balance.

[macsen rufus]

I would say "GAH!", but I'm still trying to discover its gender.... :clown:

+1 for Ajax's position :2thumbsup: Denotation and connotation are independent. Attitudes are sexist, not words.

The "history" example has always wound me up :wall:

[Rodion Romanovich]

The dictionary is not the only double standard. For example, if a man has sex frequently, he is known as a "pimp" or "player." When a woman does, she's a "slut." If a man stays unmarried in his 40s, he's a free-spirited, swinging "bachelor." When a woman does, she's an old maid "spinster." Notice the problems?

Everywhere I've been, it's the other way around. The current generation that is growing up is being taught at TV and in magazines that a man who isn't a masochistic self-loathing person whose greatest desire in life is to worship an ugly sadistic woman without personality for her personality is almost called rapist and mass-murderer.

We should be more concerned about the male population in western countries these days. The male population is often given inferior starting positions on the job market and in education, and are neglected in education.

Not to mention a few other interesting facts:
- in branches with female bosses, female salaries are much lower compared to male salaries than in any other branches
- female bosses usually have higher salary than their male counterparts
- most feminists focus more on having more female bosses, than on improving conditions for the majority of women. Most branches that have been under influence from feminists for a while have seen dramatic decrease in female salaries except for the female bosses
- feminists count in the astronomical salaries of very rich male bosses in average salary statistics for men vs women. But men in general - the vast majority - doesn't benefit from that some CEO has a ridiculously high salary. In fact, in many branches among the regular workers, the men are being repressed.

Feminists are just the modern counterpart to hippie-communists. The mere fact that they call themselves feminists is fascistic, in the sense that they deny the fact that there are men who suffer exactly the kind of treatments they claim to be against. They're not interested in equality, they're just interested in waging some pathetic war against all males, and especially to gain legitimacy for screwing and controlling poor and weak innocent men for their own purposes, not to strike against the small minority of men who do cause and reinforce some forms of inequality.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I think this is telling, you thought it preposterous until you looked in a dictionary. So any sexism in language is only apparent if you research the origin of words? Then it isn't really there at all.

Also English words are often not composed of English words combined to make new words like in say German where the nutters would have a slightly better chance arguing their case. English words are formed by combining words from other languages, combining words from several languages, anglicizing words from other languages, and just plain stealing words from other languages so you can't say "History" comes from "his-story" without fully researching exactly when people started to say "history" and whether that came from Latin, German, Norse , Spanish, French, or even Arabic, Native American languages, and pretty much any other language on the planet.

All in all English is a pretty darn egalitarian language and feminists would do better to work for equal wages with men across the board than attempt to put an end to this vile "sexist language" which has served us so well in the past and is currently being picked over for new words by other languages!:yes:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think history should just be retermed 'vaginastory' so that way there won't be anymore hurt feelings or oppression on us. I can't wait until I get to tell me grandkids I actually had to grow up with this sort of sexual tyranny, but I persevered so that they could live in a world where men are emasculated ninnies and women have moustaches.

Hyperbole aside, I feel the way EMFM does. The words themselves are an absurd fight to pick. The words don't exist without the attitudes behind them, so why not start the focus there? You don't cure tumors without looking at cancer itself. This also isn't to say I even think there is still a fight to be fought when it comes to feminism.

Heh, you know vagina is the MOST sexist term I have ever come across. The Latin litterally mean "sheath" or "scabard" in relation to Gladius "sword"

In other words the classic crude sex jokes work just as well in Latin as in English.:laugh4:

Words are what you use them for. Create a word, give it a meaning. Name a thing, define it.

[Mouzafphaerre]

I think history should just be retermed 'vaginastory' so that way there won't be anymore hurt feelings or oppression on us. I can't wait until I get to tell me grandkids I actually had to grow up with this sort of sexual tyranny, but I persevered so that they could live in a world where men are emasculated ninnies and women have moustaches.

Hyperbole aside, I feel the way EMFM does. The words themselves are an absurd fight to pick. The words don't exist without the attitudes behind them, so why not start the focus there? You don't cure tumors without looking at cancer itself. This also isn't to say I even think there is still a fight to be fought when it comes to feminism.
.
Prole pownz all! :clown:
.

[Mouzafphaerre]

Heh, you know vagina is the MOST sexist term I have ever come across. The Latin litterally mean "sheath" or "scabard" in relation to Gladius "sword"

In other words the classic crude sex jokes work just as well in Latin as in English.:laugh4:

Words are what you use them for. Create a word, give it a meaning. Name a thing, define it.
.
Then history should be renamed hystory, from hysteria. :clown:
.

[Husar]

Heh, you know vagina is the MOST sexist term I have ever come across. The Latin litterally mean "sheath" or "scabard" in relation to Gladius "sword"
That explains why we use the same term for both. :idea2:

[HoreTore]

If you want a sexist language, try Bergensk for a start. It has changed all gendered words to male.. even 'a girl' becomes male with the 'en' qualifier [en jente - jenten (m) vs. ei jente - jenta (f)]

WARNING

This language was performed by a professional. Do not try this at home. Speaking bergenser without proper training and medical equipment may cause permanent damage to the letter R, hearing disabilities, a belief that fire is somehow good and/or death.

[gibsonsg91921]

Wow - just throwing out the ideas that we discussed in English. Personally I think the PC movement is crap because it draws attention to inequalities rather than eradicating them.

I will dead in the cold hard ground before I hear anyone spell history "hystory" without being promptly slapped/punched.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"History" is just a Greek word meaning "Investigation/research" and has no relation to the concept of narrative, actually.

So she has 0 (zero) idea what she is talking about anyway.

[Craterus]

Should Words Be Changed?
No.

Modern feminists..:wall:
Modern feminists..:wall:

This was something my English class was recently discussing as well. Funny how vocal some girls will get about the topic. They came up with some absolute gems for why we have sexism today and plenty of patchy arguments about their perceived inequalities in the English language as well.
Ugh. PC=:thumbsdown:

[Viking]

Modern feminists..:wall:

This was something my English class was recently discussing as well. Funny how vocal some girls will get about the topic. They came up with some absolute gems for why we have sexism today and plenty of patchy arguments about their perceived inequalities in the English language as well.
Ugh. PC=:thumbsdown:


Lets not lump the first wave of feminists together with the maniacs from the modern Western societies. :whip:

[Craterus]

Lets not lump the first wave of feminists together with the maniacs from the modern Western societies. :whip:

Who said anything about lumping them together?
I would say that they're two completely separate annoyances.

[Viking]

Who said anything about lumping them together?
I would say that they're two completely separate annoyances.


Annoyances like women's suffrage. :gah:

[Craterus]

Women's suffrage? They already have the vote, equal rights etc. Most of their complaining nowadays is about non-issues, such as...:idea:...language!

[Viking]

Women's suffrage? They already have the vote, equal rights etc. Most of their complaining nowadays is about non-issues, such as...:idea:...language!


The first wave feminists mainly fought for women's suffrage. You cut out the deliberatedly put modern bit of my post, suggesting that all the history of feminism is equally mad.

[Craterus]

The first wave feminists mainly fought for women's suffrage. You cut out the deliberatedly put modern bit of my post, suggesting that all the history of feminism is equally mad.

Meh, the militant ones were a pain so I'm half right :scholar:
Emmeline Pankhurst certainly does not deserve her statue next to the Palace of Westminster.

[ajaxfetish]

Personally, I'm not convinced you can assign a goodness or badness rating to entire waves of feminism. Margaret Sanger was a modern feminist, and I'm certainly grateful for her contributions to our society. Some feminists have accomplished great things (suffrage, birth control, a general greater respect for the rights of women) while others have been irrational, polemic, and irritating to the core.

Judge a woman on her individual merits, not on a stereotypical characterization of the group or movement she is a part of.

Ajax

[Lemur]

Can we at least agree to heap scorn on Andrea Dworkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin), without worrying about which "wave" of feminism is responsible?