Baktria, and playing in the East

[underthesun]

Any general tips?

I decided to knock out Pahlava first (I was real cheap, I took advantage of our alliance and military access. Does this make me a noob?), and then after many many years I have taken Chighu, the Saka capital. The Saka are pretty much no problem anymore, they have two settlements, one of which I made sure was economically useless (exterminated the population, got rid of every building I could) The other I'm sure isn't in great shape either.

The one problem I have is that I have a terrible economy. I have no ports to build up, being landlocked and all. Any tips for playing an (extremely) landlocked faction?

And on top of that, I'm at a crossroads.

I could gradually build another army to eventually take India, with the hope that plundering India will more or less jump start my economy.

OR

I could turn on Arche Seleukia NOW, and perhaps THAT would get the old economy going. Worry about India later, when I can just swoop in and take it all at once.

Any ideas?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

The key to a Baktrian economy is mining...

[The Wandering Scholar]

...and expansion.

[underthesun]

Mining, of course. While I was busy building up my armies, I had neglected to check whether I could mine. I'll be sure to make some mines, I know that just one of those can easily earn you an additional 1000 mnai per turn.

Expansion, certainly, but to where, is my question. Do I stab AS in the back early, or do I go for India?

[The Wandering Scholar]

Quick;y scan to see which has the weakest garrisons

[Hooahguy]

go after Kophen and Ghandahara (i forgot the name of the city in that province, but its in india)
they both have nice mines, speaking as a former Baktrian player!

[underthesun]

That would be AS. Stabbing them in the back would be very, very easy, given their entanglement with the Ptolemaioi (which looks to be a standstill, at the moment, even better) and the sheer number of settlements they have...

Then again, hooahguy makes a good point. And if the Ptollies do start winning later on, then that makes my job even easier...

[Hegix]

Every time I've played an eastern faction (Hai and Parthia), shortly after I attack AS they make peace with the Ptolies. Use plenty of early spies to get as many of AS settlements to rebel as possible. This will give you more time to prepare before you actually have to go to war with them.

[pezhetairoi]

You don't need Gandhara yet, just with Kophen, Marakanda, Eschate, and Nisa (if you dare), you've got precisely 5 provinces with mines, of which two are golden and one is double-silver. And that is definitely more than enough. Avoid war with the Seleukids, and fight only defensively until you've taken India.

[ereunao]

Definitely make Kophen your priority. With a second level mine and the right governor, it can pull in >5k net.

Don't worry, the AS will soon decide you've had enough independence and hey presto you'll have a just war on your hands!

[pezhetairoi]

I don't know about that. I'm already in 258, and the Seleukids are showing no sign of anything happening. Could be that the Pahlava and Ptolemaioi are hard at war with them and getting pwned, which -could- explain why the Pahlaval are practically undefended (5 units in Nisa and 4 in Kiat).

[ereunao]

Sheesh, Pez, I won't bother with spoiler tags next time then! ;-)

You're only 14 years in, early days...

[beatoangelico]

my strategy for baktria was to keep the pahlava as allies and directly go for the rich AS cities: first I took gava-haomavarga, then I hadn't done anything for 20 years except building things that increase income (like farms and roads) and saving money to finally build a mine, after that I could build some additional units and start my campaign against AS.
That worked for me very well at H/M setting, I was lucky because the Sakae were allied to the Seleukids but never declared war on me, probably they were too busy with the Sauromatae. I don't know if such a tactic is good also for VH were AI factions are more aggressive towards the player.
The reasons to go after AS are more than one, first the provinces are richer and with Aria and Margiane you could make a lot of money with land trade in Baktra, secondly Baktria and AS share both culture and the regional barracks, and this gives a lot ob bonuses, thirdly usually AS is too big and too busy with the Ptolies to launch a full out attack on the East and this can give you some time to react.

[Theodotos I]

The AS will be a headache to you for the entire game, unless you destroy them, which is ahistorical, not to mention difficult. Very difficult. I went the India route, which gave a huge boost to my economy, but I never really went over 60k in the whole game.(I played to about 200BC, at which time I had fulfilled the VCs and quit) The AS have a number of cities that are really worth taking, but they do make peace with the Ptolemies very easily and will strike back hard. At one point in my game I had conquered all the way to Seleukia and Babylon, but they finally struck back and I lost everything all the way back to Gabai. Baktria is challenging, but it can be a lot of fun. Certainly one of my favorites. Good luck!

[Hooahguy]

yes, and dont forget india! thier infantry giuld warriors are amazing! in custom battles, they cut my Baktrion Agema down with ease! and the agema had 3 silver chevrons!

[underthesun]

Ooh, hope the AS don't declare war on me too soon. I'm just now beginning to send people to take Kophen, and I've yet to build any mines (they are SO damn expensive!). It's about 258.

Instead of building a mine I went for building this one military academy thing that, once completed, will give me a whole bunch of great units. But it's not too late to cancel and get that money back. I just figured it eventually needed to be done...

I don't think I'll need to worry about AS for at least 10-15 years. They are currently beginning to lose, they lost Antioch, the only connection to the west they have left is cut off, in Anatolia.

[Gabeed]

I also happen to be playing a Baktria campaign, around 259 BC. With an alliance with the Saka and the attack of the Pahlava on the Seluekids, I decided to attack the AS. I have thus far taken Antiocheia Margiane, the Alexandria to the south of Baktra, Propthasia, and the small city (Karmana or something?) near Persepolis and the Straits of Hormuz.

My income is okay, only about 2000/turn, because although I did build a mine at Alexandria Eschate, I have had to maintain sizable garrisons and a clutch Baktrian Horse Archer force which is led by a general with -30% trade income (the guy's just plain horrible at overseeing trade, so he's useless in cities). This mounted force rides around my kingdom, building watch towers, destroying the many rebels in the area, and dispatching the occasional Seleukid scouting party.

However, the Pahlava are actually at a bloody stalemate with the AS right now, and the war between the AS and the Ptolemies is merely an off-and-on occurrence, so I look anxiously to the west . . .

[underthesun]

So, 250 BC, I'm still struggling economically, and AS has betrayed me.

By struggling, I mean, about 1000 mnai a turn.

I look at the miilitary ranking chart, and AS outclasses me at least 4 times.

In addition to that, they've made peace with the Ptolemaioi.

Should I call this one a day and try again as the Baktrians? I feel like maybe I had wasted my time going after the Saka and Pahlava when I should have worried about getting into India and establishing a good income base.

Or is my campaign winnable, and just getting REALLy interesting?

[Barbarian]

I prefer going for AS first.

My way:

At the very start, sent my starting army to suicidal attack against rebels, this freed my income, and I was able to build some nice buildings quickly. I had only the starting garrisons in each of the cities, I focused on economy. It was not long, till Saka-Rauka attacked me. I used the terrain + neat tactics and ambushes to beat their overpowered horse archers (you can try to prove me that they are balanced, but be ready for a long discussion. I like them though, they add to the challenge).
After beating the first few attack waves, I reformed my small force and took 2 of their closest cities by a surprise attack, decreasing the pressure on my regions. The still make raids against me, but they happen only once in three turns :laugh4:
I tried to expand further east, but the distance between cities, and the hordes of nomads slow down everything
Thus I saw an easy targets - the AS towns. After fighting thousands of armored riders, who wield bows and can beat anything in both missile and melee fight, fighting AS seems a peace of cake. I needed only 2 turns to reach their closest towns. Their towns are rich and well advanced, instead of miserable nomad camps, who need more investing than they are worth. And I can train some of the best troops right after taking settlements from AS.

My overall strategy on keeping a good income, is using almost no army in the times of peace. Well, Pahlava is the only faction near that I am neutral with, so the peace is relative. I have only 1-3 units in each of my settlements, and a small wandering force. I have built watchtowers in the key spots, as the nomads are moving fast, and such weak garrisoned cities can become an easy target to them.
In a case, when an enemy force is spotted, the mobilization starts! All the citizens, who train regulary, ar called to arms and form lines of phalanxes! At this moment my income drops from +4000 to + 500, and I stop building anything and get ready for war. As the enemies are being spotted early (watchtowers) I have a time to gather 1-2 units from each of my cities (I train some new, to replace them) + recruit 1-2 units of mercenaries, just for a one battle. In the end, I get a decent army to repel the attackers.

When attacking: I take only few units with me at the start, to shorten the hard times for my economy. I don't need a huge army, when I start marching, I need it, when I am close to the target. So, I hire some mercenaries, when I have reached it, also, just for a one battle. In the battle, the costly units do the hardest part, so, the costly but useful mercs usually, get destroyed, and do not drain money from me after the battle, but they also bring me victory:yes:

Now I have a hard decision to face. I just countered another army from Saka, and I still have quite a huge force, so, I must decide, whether I disband it, and ready a new army at Baktra, which to send against AS, getting one more town, or chase the army of Saka back in their home town(s) and destroy them once and for all.

The first choice will give another settlement, so, I will get more wealthy + I will be able to use my money on upgrading the cities, instead of supporting the long campaign against Saka. But, while dealing with the AS, the Saka-Rauka will have replenished it strength, and will probably be unbeatable. I will be wealthy, but will have to use my money to defend against endless armies from east, so I stay as an mediocre faction and never reach glory.

The second option: I risk a lot and start marching against Saka

Failure: Hordes from Saka reach my weak defended towns, while the main army is away. They take them. Without the supplies from the home towns, the campaigning army dies somewhere in the mountains. I end my life at the city center of Baktra, being pierced by 150 arrows:skull:

Success: My army reach the capital of Saka-Rauka first, and takes it, destroying their faction. With the "threat from the east" eliminated, Baktria becomes the strongest faction in the area, and can now concentrate on launching a well organized attack on Arche Seleukia. Pahlava, seeing the might of Baktria, chooses to stay at peace with them. Soon, Baktrian armies march into Rome, and the world trembles in fear!

Hmm, what to choose then:dizzy2: Being a king is hard sometimes :crown:

PS: A bit massive post, but I am excited! EB is a great mod.:2thumbsup:

[underthesun]

So how's that working out for you Barbarian?

My game isn't actually too bad. I've conquered 3 AS cities, and the only large army they have near me is about 9 units strong, around Zadrakata (sp?), and it isn't doing much but sitting around. The next closest one is of similar size and all the way in Ekbatana.

So, perhaps the sheer fact that AS is overextended MAY make this conflict winnable for me. They still outrank me militarily by many times, but I think the sheer size of their empire is making it impossible for them to summon huge armies to rain death upon me.

Now if only the AI would EVER accept Peace conditions, I could just take my VC provinces, make nice, turn on India and call it a day...

[Barbarian]

It is going very well. I took the risky way, and destroyed Saka Rauka. Before I had done it, I had to worry about an attack from almost any direction, now I can concentrate on AS.
Pahlava doesn't seem to be willing to go at war with me soon, so, I am using them as a shield against powerful western factions. I now settled a bit, because the danger is over, and upgraded my cities and built mines. For some 15 years I did only that. Baktrian money really comes from mines, my income is now +8000 , and I even haven't built all of the possible mines :2thumbsup:
Although now it is only +3000, because I sent my most massive army ever to take over lands in the east (India?), while another, smaller force holds back AS. Arche Seleukia begun to react, after I took one more of their cities. They are sending some half stack armies at me, but, of course, it is too late already.

I think that the turning point in my campaign was getting rid of Saka. I feel that AS is huge, but weak overall, as I could have taken 2 more of their cities, but decided to stick to my plan and take the rich territories in the east first. I wonder, what will AS do, when I start waging a real war against them, sending full stack armies, instead of 5 units :charge:

[keravnos]

Ooh, hope the AS don't declare war on me too soon. I'm just now beginning to send people to take Kophen, and I've yet to build any mines (they are SO damn expensive!). It's about 258.

Instead of building a mine I went for building this one military academy thing that, once completed, will give me a whole bunch of great units. But it's not too late to cancel and get that money back. I just figured it eventually needed to be done...

I don't think I'll need to worry about AS for at least 10-15 years. They are currently beginning to lose, they lost Antioch, the only connection to the west they have left is cut off, in Anatolia.

One of the best tricks to survive as Baktria is to build a lot of small fry buildings in all your territories, then cancel them all, and use the surge in cash to build mining complexes. Only way to survive WHEN AS comes for you.

Try to get as much of India as possible before they do. Go for the first two Indus provinces and turn them into lvl I territories (Patris Baktria) if at all possible.

When they do, have your outer cities fortified and their walls manned with slingers and some thureophoroi/Baktrion Agema if possible. Sally every turn and let your slingers at them.

[underthesun]

I may restart and do that. It all depends on if I can get my economy on track. It's always been okay, but not fantastic, 8000 mnai per turn and all such... nonsense :-p

I found in my game that I had no chance to conquer India. By the time I had begun besieging Kophen AS attacked me. So now I'm kinda stuck with my mediocre provinces.

But hey, I may be able to pull it together.

[SkyWalker]

looks like you are going through rough time. Here's my experience:

First I attacked Kophen with my starting army with Theodotos Baktrios
rebels sallied out to meet my army, but thankfully, I won that battle by holding the central plaza for 3 minutes, at a great casualty though, 2/3th of my army was wiped out while my bodyguard calvalry held center. After that, I spend next 10 years defeating rebels and subjugating Gava-Haomavarga.

I strongly encourge you to use persian archers extensively in the beginning. I used 8~9 of them, combined with spearman-archers, they were able to defeat even the nomadic rebels around Alexandria-Eschate and Gava-Haomavarga Use your bodyguard or other light infantry wisely to expose enemy's back to archers, especially against AS' phalanx since they are almost invulnerable to arrows from front.

Strangely, after one major battle that i won a heroic victory, AS never sent me another army, not even 3~4 pantodapoi for nearly 30 years. I guess they were too busy with Ptolemies, even now they are having fights around Euphrates river and in Asia Minor, nobody having a upper hand yet. I took advantage of that and took 3 of their easternmost provinces, and took Alexandropolis as well (all with just archers, slingers and couple thureophoroi)

Thankfully both of nomadic factions, Pahlava and Saka, were too busy fighting each other to attack my land, so i could concentrate on rebels and AS. Even Sarmatians joined the war for control of the Steppes, further taking their attention from me.

After that, it was just a wide open road to India, with flourishing economy with 8k per turn. I got over 20k per turn after I got all 3 Indian provinces!

when you decide to attack india, i recommend use 2 eastern skirmishers (for elephants), 2 thureophoroi, 1 phanlangite unit, 2 slingers, and 6~7 archers, and if u can afford them, 2 calvary unit (i used baktrioi hippeis)

the rebels in India won't sally out until the last turn, and when they do, their number will be down significantly, 30~50% of original size. let your slingers and archers take care of enemy coming out, and deal with remaining with thureophoroi and phalanx, with help of calvary, it will be short battle. about then elephants will join the battle, use fire arrows with skirmishers to kill them. I was quite surprised too see elephants fall that quickly.

Anyway, I hope my experience and advice helped u in some ways. Keep up!

[underthesun]

Now, when I conquer India, should I occupy, enslave, or exterminate? They have economic implications, and I was wondering which of them was better for making a lot of mnai per turn.

The one good thing I can say about ignoring India and going after Saka and Pahlava like I did was that, even though my economy isn't too hot, I am COMPLETELY secure on all my other borders, only needing to keep minimum garrisons in my cities. So I might actually pull through this. Having taken about 5 of their cities, AS is beginning to feel the strain economically.

[Barbarian]

Having taken about 5 of their cities, AS is beginning to feel the strain economically

Beware, a dying beast is dangerous! Pretty similar to what is happening in my campaign. But now AS desperately sends all they have against me, hoping to retake their cities and get their economy up. I think that any faction becomes aggressive, when it is out of the money. The most hilarious thing I saw, was an army AS containing 5 family members.

I also don't understand their logic: they just besieged one of my towns using only 2 units of hellenic native phalanxes and 1 unit of persian archers, while the town is being protected by 2 units of hellenic medium phalanxes, 3 units of persian archers, one unit of persian archers-spearmen, one unit of heavy peltasts and my faction heir, who has 95 heavily armoured riders:inquisitive:

They must be really desperate :skull:

About the India: That depend on the sttlement and the number of troops you have left. I needed not to exterminate any of them, I just occupied, but if you want to establish the number 3. government, it would be better to get rid of some citizens (enslave them, perhaps? :whip: )

[underthesun]

I'm beginning to notice that too. Took Karaman, Persepolis, Zadrakata, and that one city that starts with an H, southeast of Zadrakata. They're not actively attacking me with tiny armies, but when I confront those tiny armies with my big army they're just not backing down. They're getting desperate.

The only large armies they can bring to bear, as far as I know, is an 11 unit stack in Ekbatana (which despite all my conquests they seem unwilling to move. They're digging in) and what looks to be about a 12-unit stack in Babylon.

My economy is finally beginning to show signs of life, and with the proceeds from my conquests I'm preparing an army to go into India.

I'm actually having a bit of a moral dilemma. Destroy Parsa (historical building in Persepolis) for 10,000 mnai, or repair it for ~4000 mnai and get a 5% bonus to public order...

[Barry Soteiro]

I always go first to India to get all those cool units.:egypt:

[Radier]

Every time I've played an eastern faction (Hai and Parthia), shortly after I attack AS they make peace with the Ptolies. Use plenty of early spies to get as many of AS settlements to rebel as possible. This will give you more time to prepare before you actually have to go to war with them.

Can spies make foreign cities revolt? Man, what have I missed... :dizzy2:

[underthesun]

Cool units, you say? I mean, I know you can get Elephants, but what else? I'm currently besieging Taksashila (northernmost Indian city), and I'm not looking forward to fighting those elephants...

[Barbarian]

My spies are unable to get even into the smallest of settlements, so, I would realy like to know, how Hegix does that. I know that spies can be left in well upgraded cities to increase their abilities, but once you get the required buildings, you are so strong, that there is no point in using such strategy anymore, as you can destroy AS by that time anyway. Early in the game, the only way to increase the experience of spies is using them actively and spying the enemy's armies, but after spying through most of the eastern world, my spy got only one additional "eye".

I am recruiting spies time ater time, but all of them die, when they try to move into hostile settlement for the first time.

[underthesun]

So, update in my campaign.

Economy pretty good. I've taken over the whole of Persia and Mesopotamia, and have resolved to go no further. I'm now focusing on India.

The Ptolemaioi, my allies, have just betrayed me.

Any tips on dealing with the Ptolemaioi? I hear they're a cut above the other Diadochi. I hear nasty things about Galatian Swordsmen as well...

[Hooahguy]

infantry guild warrios should be fine with them, its just hard to export them that far....

[underthesun]

Just absolutely destroyed one of his armies, with only 10% losses on my part. The Galatian Swordsmen don't SEEM too bad...

He has a full stack and a 4 unit stack+general coming my way, but once I get rid of that one, he's pretty much through, from then on it'll be sporadic fighting with the Ptollies until I conquer the East.

Damn, I REALLY wish the AI would accept peace. Especially after you've conquered over half their empire. The Seleukids STILL won't accept peace. I even offered back to them Arbela, Seleukia, Babylon, and Charax; all of Mesopotamia. They wouldn't bite. :furious3:

Meanwhile the Seleukids made peace with the Ptolemaioi and the Getai no problem. :wall:

[zooeyglass]

Meanwhile the Seleukids made peace with the Ptolemaioi and the Getai no problem. :wall:

just happened in my mak campaign also - as soon as my alliance with the seleukids broke, ptolemaioi made peace and both allied with getai immediately. le sigh.