Living with the Yellow Death (Ptolemies)

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

As we all know, the AI Ptolemies faction is unbalanced at the moment in EB 1.0 due to a couple of their units being near-invincible in auto-calc battles, and they take over the eastern half of the world unless the human player stops them.

I was wondering how other people are managing to live with this.

For myself, for long campaigns, I've resorted to playing factions who almost never have to fight the Ptolemies throughout the campaign - the northern and western barbarian factions like the Casse, Aedui, Arveni, Sweboz and Lusotanns.

And usually, these barbarian factions are fighting enemies who themselves aren't too greatly affected by the Ptolemies, so I'm not fighting enemies who the Ptolemies have 'unrealistically' over-weakened.

Or I'll play short campaigns with the other factions (except for the Seleucids) that end once the Ptolemies start taking over.

What do you do?

[Megas Pyrrhos]

I accept the inevitable, and go from there.

If I can't accept the inevitable, I destroy the inevitable.

[Obelics]

the first time it was funny, i remember in a KH campaign EB0.74, i destroyed the Ptolemaics, but a second time it become boring, so a Chartaginian campaign in 0.81 and another in 1.0, just ended as Ptolems started to send stack after stack of armies.

[Digby Tatham Warter]

The Ptolemies or any faction which become to dominant, in the interest of variety and fairplay in my campaigns, recieve a military/skulldugery rebuke.

In my present Rome campaign I am giving the Seleukids their cities back, and holding off the Ptolemies armies at Jerusalem, in an attempt to redress the balance somewhat.

[anubis88]

Well if you play with the Seleucids or Carthage you can keep them at bay. You just have to try to stop them before they become unstopable.
When i play with the Seleucid i Conquer all of their provinces in Asia Minor and the Levant, keep a strong army near Jerusalem, to fight any possible invasion.
If i play with Carthage i conquer cyrene and give it to KH to whom the Ptolies are allied. It helps to create such a buffer state.
But if you play with Pontus or Hayasdan you pretty much can't stop them from attacking you relentesly:whip:

[Visitor13]

If Carthage goes to war with the Ptolemies, the latter will eventually be crushed, even if they've got as far as Seleukia.

At least that's what happened in one of my campaigns.

[Moosemanmoo]

If I'm not the AS then I'll sometimes create_unit decent armies in Seleukid cities, I know it's cheating but sending armies over simply to give back land to those that lost it gets tiring

[Tellos Athenaios]

I play as the Casse in my 1.x campaign (well it's the internal version). Let's just say apart from the fact that I like the plotting and grand-joint-alliances against the Ptolemies on the one hand, and on the other don't care too much: I've got my hands full of the Aedui atm, after finally having locked the Sweboz.

Let's just say my domestic affairs are complicated enough without having to worry about the Ptolemies, and in fact I kinda like to see how the AI manages to cope. Yes, it manages to cope ! Albeit, barely because the Ptolemies can afford not to trade with anyone, since they've got an massive internal sea-trade network.

[The Celtic Viking]

In my current campaign as the Arverni, the Seleukids crushed the Ptolemies early, and owns the east while they've also invaded Makedonia and taken Pella. They're a true monster.

And no, in case you're wondering, the Carthies never went to war with them (the Ptolemaioi, I mean). They're more interested in knocking my head off, even though we've never shared any border, were allies and both at war with the Romani. :no:

[The Wandering Scholar]

I don't object to the map being one half red one half yellow :beam:

[General Appo]

The Yellow Death is indeed very much like the Black Death.
It has a high percentage of killing you very painfully, and even if you do survive you will not do so without pain and possible amputation of arms or citys.

[underthesun]

I noticed that they dominated in my last campaign, but in my current campaign they're kinda average, to be honest.

[The Wandering Scholar]

hmm amputating a city..

[Reno Melitensis]

Well, in my campaign too they where doing a great job in taking over from the Selucids. Allied with Pontos, Hayasdan and the Poeni, they invaded Asia Minor, but failed to take Pergamon after at least 3 sieges. Pontos have three provinces, while the Hay are doing well too. So the Senate decides to intervene, by sending spies. Mazaka has erupted in open revolt, but for now the AI manged to control the population, but Halicarnasus? revolted to KH. So did Byzantium after being captured by Pontos. The KH are doing well too, but cant take Pella, and Epiros, a client kingdom of Rome keeps the balance in Greece.

For now the campaign is becoming more interesting than v.82.

Cheers.

[Pobs]

Titus,

playing a Saba campaign here on VH/M, and the Ptolies were a nightmare primarily due to those Galatian swordsmen... so I went to the EDU and changed them from 'highly trained' to 'trained' and now they are just good shock troops, not supermen......

seems to have adjusted the game balance for the better.


cheers,


Pobs

[General Appo]

hmm amputating a city..

Well, I meant like in gifting it to say the Seleukids to use it as a buffer.
Though that might just make the matter worse and bring the Grey Death on you as well.

[Tristuskhan]

Well, I've only been playing one single campaign on EB, as Epirotes. How I was able to deal with them? Classical battles until I took Tarsos, coming from the west. There's a funny thing with Tarsos. When the settlement is besieged by an army coming from the east, and you try to sally out, the ennemy always moves to the left and in the process comes close to the walls.

Garrison with one general, six horse archers from Kallatis (did someone notice how much this settlement is useful to an Hellene with type IV gov, scythian riders, bosphoran heavy archers and scythian archers) and thirteen (!) scythian archers.

Sally out, archers on the walls and horse archers rushing out of the gates. And watch the Yellow's death.

That was turn one... Since I had my first army standing close I brought it to the easternmost bridge in the province. There is a ford on the left flank. Let the Yellow army engage your phallanx that is holding the bridge, then run your archers, assault infantery and heavy cav on the east bank using the ford. Be cautious, emptying your quivers should be enough to rout an entire army. Mop up the remains who dumbly try to flee through your phallanx.

Gain an heroic victory and retreat to recomplete your troops, waiting for the next Yellow army to besiege Tarsos.


Cheating you say:furious3: ! IA cheats, I use my ennemy's weapons.

Anyway, within erh... Thirty turns you'll be able to field a fantastic army lead by a legendary general, almost all bearing gold chevrons. Ship it to the Nile valley.

Done.:clown:

PS: currently playing a Parthian campaign... The Ptollies are going to be some other kind of business when I meet them...

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well to be quite honest I didn't have a problem with defending a ford either when the Sweboz decided to backstab me and launch an assault on my 'empire'. The boy scouts were quickly dealt with, and hence the weakly garrisoned settlements of their trading backbone were conquered quickly to.


But then they decided that really all they wanted was to launch a full-scale migration with just 5 full stacks or so. And I barely managed to field one/two armies without being able to call upon reinforcements other than mercs.

I still lost that ford battle though: a full stack of nearly all infantry + BG is not something you are going to stop with your nearly depleted less than half a stack of crappy units + a few good mercs.

[Maksimus]

I play as the Casse in my 1.x campaign (well it's the internal version). Let's just say apart from the fact that I like the plotting and grand-joint-alliances against the Ptolemies on the one hand, and on the other don't care too much: I've got my hands full of the Aedui atm, after finally having locked the Sweboz.

Let's just say my domestic affairs are complicated enough without having to worry about the Ptolemies, and in fact I kinda like to see how the AI manages to cope. Yes, it manages to cope ! Albeit, barely because the Ptolemies can afford not to trade with anyone, since they've got an massive internal sea-trade network.

Tellos, are you saying that in the internal version you are using - Aegypt is as power as in EB 1 ? ~:shock:

Are you ok with that, considering that when you reach North Italy Alexandria is going to be the center of the world :coffeenews:

[Tellos Athenaios]

Actually work is being done on making the AS put up more of a fight against them Ptolemies on one side, but keeping them from obliteratin Pontos, Hayasdan, Parthia and the like.

Let me say only this: my original starting point was one of the earliest revisions, and IIRC the Ptolemaioi have been toned down (quite?) a bit since then. In any case I was pretty stunned with just how well the Seleukides initially managed to cope, that is until Parthia got a wee bit too eager and expanded far enough into the heartlands to directly threaten the Median Satrapy. From where on the Seleukides started to neglect the Western front and concentrate on the Eastern one, hence the Ptolemies became 'The Successors'.

But again, I'll re-state that I've started my campaign on what is to be considered an outdated version ... so my view of the Ptolemies is kinda skewered: the last revision was only a week ago or so, hence the call for people willing to do this most laborious and tedious of jobs -- okay, okay: they get to play with a very new and very much enhanced version of EB nearly nobody else has. :grin: But we also want reports! :whip:

[pezhetairoi]

I've never had the Yellows dominate any of my campaigns. It's always the AS giving them a hard fight and stalemating the scene while expanding in the west while Carthage eats them up from West Africa. Hmm.

[Ayce]

Well, in my Getai campaign, they obliterated (almost) AS, but in so doing, their forces are very thinned, so I can conquer their cities quite easily, only desperate and pathetic counter-attacks are being done (aka they are dying and there is nothing they can do to stop it). The annoying part is the number of cities they have.

[Dubius Cato]

In my campaign as Rome they have the upper hand against AS, with a total victory only a question of time probably. I wonder though, will the Ptolies be able to handle the big empire better than AS?

I'm considering to help the world by using naval supremacy to raze their coastal cities before they build up an unreachable continental empire in Asia. Does economical warfare work in EB? I could also send a general to Persia to raise some mercenary ruckus, blockading roads, ports, do the pillaging...

Hm, or send an army through the Persian Gulf to get to the Mesopotamian hinterland.

[PershsNhpios]

Scato, I have recommended several times my method of dealing with endless Seleucid/Ptolemaic stacks - Scythian Horse.
You can have 3 armies entirely consisting of Scythian horse archers, and if you use them correctly you can have them wipe out over 10 full stacks each without losing one man.
You'll soon have an elite stack of horse, and you won't have to expend anything to keep the plague away.
Just some time to fight the battles.

However, in all my 1.0 campaigns the two deaths have locked jaws from 270 through to 170 BC, with neither side giving way.
One year, the Ptolemaics have split their adversary in two and hold from Seleukia to Sardis.
Next year, Seleucids have all of this back, and in addition they are attempting to cross the Nile.
I have never seen either win out, and all the while the little border successors nibble away slowly.

As for taking out these empires, it's a matter of naval assault.
Same with any faction, levy a fine army that will need no reserves, recruit up to 3 stacks of pure, one-unit levies.
Then study the empire and draw a line from the capitol, or target city through the weakest garrisons to the sea.
Then launch a very fast campaign, taking the cities with ease and leaving 4-5 units as a garrison, letting your army move on each turn.

In this way, I can take half the Seleucid Empire in about 9 turns.

[The Wandering Scholar]

Glenn the master tactition

[PershsNhpios]

Glenn the contributing to a thread without spamming for once.

[blado]

Luckely I haven't had to deal with them yet, because my Romani lands are still small. Looks like the Ptolemies are having trouble though. The selucids fought hard but are almost pushed out of asia minor. The Makedonians have been pushed out of Greece and are now fighting the Ptolemies in Asia minor. (Kind of found that funny.) It looked like the Makedonians were winning at first but now they are starting to be pushed back. I think this campaign is pretty interesting.

[anubis88]

It looked like the Makedonians were winning at first but now they are starting to be pushed back. I think this campaign is pretty interesting.
That always happens in my campaigns... Macedon conquers either Sparta or Athens. But then the KH somehow defeats them, and in 20 - 30 years there is only the Lesbian Empire left:no:

[pezhetairoi]

Same here. Which is why I always engage in a little rowdy empire-manipulation for the Makedonians so they end up with a viable empire to challenge me/AS/Ptolemaioi. Like in my current 1.0 Roman campaign, I have helped them to take Thrace, Korinthos, Rhodos and Ionia.

[Obelics]

talking about Ptolemaics.... i was too curious (when i saw they had a town in Naissos...) to ask them for Map Informations...

well:

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9061/ptol2fz7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[CaesarAugustus]

Just wondering, is it possible for the AI to win the game achieving victory conditions? Becuase the Ptolemies in my game are almost the size of Alexander's empire, and only two cities in Asia Minor away from achieving what would be the victory conditions.

[konny]

I take it that there might have been the possibility that a charismatic leader in Egypt could have overcome the internal troubles and starts to re-establish Alexander's empire.

In my Romani campaign I had made the opposite alliances of the historical Rome, allied with the Maks and Seleucids against KH (and Ptolemaians). The Yellow Death has now nealry crushed the Seleucids but has so far made no moves against Makedonia. That I would use as an accuse to start war aganist Egypt, the same as I did with KH.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

talking about Ptolemaics.... i was too curious (when i saw they had a town in Naissos...) to ask them for Map Informations...

well:

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9061/ptol2fz7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)


:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Sorry, that is f#$@()*& hilarious.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Disciple of Tacitus]

Well, I have to make a serious post, although I am still chuckling from Obelics post...
In regards to "Living with the Yellow Death", I am for whatever is historically accurate. If the Ptolemies played a dominant role in the world (as we EBer's know it) at the time, so be it. I think the EB dev team has proven themselves more then adept, so I will back their calls. Someday, I will even - perish the thought - play the Yellow Death, but for now, I prefer to build my own empire further West (based on a little city I call Roma) and complain about the dreaded sister-lovin', galatian spawnin', tons of trade havin', miles of phalanx producin' yellow monsters of the East.

[vashdm]

Well in my Pahalva campaign ( veryhard \ medium ) I owned all AS city of asia ( ectabana and susa to ) but AS is winning against the Ptolemaioi , they have also control Of Taras
I think if the Ptolemaioi don't conquer Antiocheia , AS got some godd chance of resist and maybe win ,because Antiocheia has a large population, good MIC, makes money and is in a strategic position
Or maybe is beacuse the largest Ptolemaioi army is in Etiopia and is not moving !:sweatdrop:

[Gebeleisis]

well i one didnt have problems with the ptoleis,in my as campaign i whiped the floor with them til lthe year 255 they were gone :)

[Visitor13]

Just wondering, is it possible for the AI to win the game achieving victory conditions? Becuase the Ptolemies in my game are almost the size of Alexander's empire, and only two cities in Asia Minor away from achieving what would be the victory conditions.

I'd like to know that as well.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Just wondering, is it possible for the AI to win the game achieving victory conditions? Becuase the Ptolemies in my game are almost the size of Alexander's empire, and only two cities in Asia Minor away from achieving what would be the victory conditions.
No, the AI cannot acheive victory conditions. Victory conditions are done by the script and require that the faction is 'local'.

[anubis88]

Well in my Pahalva campaign ( veryhard \ medium ) I owned all AS city of asia ( ectabana and susa to ) but AS is winning against the Ptolemaioi , they have also control Of Taras
I think if the Ptolemaioi don't conquer Antiocheia , AS got some godd chance of resist and maybe win ,because Antiocheia has a large population, good MIC, makes money and is in a strategic position
Or maybe is beacuse the largest Ptolemaioi army is in Etiopia and is not moving !:sweatdrop:

They have Taras? wow!
could you please post a screenshot? i've never seen seleucids in Italy since i play RTW:dizzy2:

[vashdm]

sorry it wa Tarsos not taras !
I've made confusion :laugh4:

[Torvus]

I don't know about you guys, but i love the Yellow Death. I almost always play as either them, KH, or Epeiros.

As the Ptolies, i usually take Antioch within ten or twenty turns. However, back in .8, I used to have to fight off Seleucid armies every five or six turns, which i actually enjoyed. In 1.0, the Seleucids shrug off the loss of their former capital and then promptly roll over and die. this sickens me to think that any Hellene would give up so easily.

As KH, I love it because they draw the AS' attention away from helping the Maks prevent me from advancing into Anatolia and Ionia.

and as Pyrrus and his Epeirotes, I usually negotiate a cease-fire with the KH, dominate the Maks, and focus my attention on Rome. those red-lovin fools never know what hit them.

[CaesarAugustus]

No, the AI cannot acheive victory conditions. Victory conditions are done by the script and require that the faction is 'local'.

That's a relief... except now it looks like I started a war with the Yellow Death for nothing. :sweatdrop: Gah.

[jabarto]

I don't know about you guys, but i love the Yellow Death.

See, I think this is what bothers me most about them. I know from my experimenting with them that they're practically my dream faction, but I always feel so strange for wanting to play a faction that has frustrated me constantly since my vanilla RTW days.

Anyway, there's not much I could say that hasn't been mentioned already. I usually just play a Western faction, expand westward, and try to forget they exist. Unless I'm playing as the Seleucids, in which case my typical reservations about blitzing go right out the window as I steamroll them as fast as I can, cackling with glee as I scour them from the face of the Earth. :sweatdrop:

[PrimusPilus]

Servus,

I think that the one other faction becoming a superpower actually adds a bit to the game. In playing as Rome, I have found that the Carthaginians are not that difficult to defeat.

By monitoring the status graphs, you can see who is becoming too powerful. In the case of my current campaign, it is in the Ptolemies.

Once they started getting too big (they were pushing into the Balkans which I saw as my area of influence) I intervened in the area. This made for a decades long struggle much like the Punic wars were in actuality.

I had my ups and downs fighting them as their experienced phalanx troops would grind up a lot of my infantry.

With the reforms of the general of the age, Aemlius Regulus (marian reforms) the tide turned for good. My legions backed by good auxilary cavalry, light ballistae and local mercenaries have now driven them out of most of Asia Minor.

I can now see the day when I will march on to Alexandria and drive the decadent inbred swine from power.

PP

[Dubius Cato]

I'd like to reiterate that for a war against Egypt sea power is important. You can raid their cities where you want when you want, and that way destroy their ability to build high end units in the regions closest to your probable borders.

The only problem are the gold chevron/weapon/armor slaves that spawn when the cities eventually rebel. Ptoly armies consist of high powered slaves then. Too bad you need to delete map.rwm for the nerf patch...

[d'Arthez]

Superpowers are cool to fight against. They add a lot of challenge - and may make the game virtually impossible to beat, if you have to whipe out that superpower, and its borders are on the other side of the map (can you imagine the fun you have as Romans, going all the way to India, because of the Ptollies?).

That being sad, it is frustrating if it is always the Ptollies or Seleukids and to a lesser extent Baktria. It would be quite interesting to fight against the Pahlava or a large Celtic faction.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone!

What bothers me most about the Ptolemies is that they have too many advantages.

1. They have the best economy of any faction at the start.
2. They have an army which seems near-invincible in autocalc battles.
3. They have a great defensive strategic position and are usually only at war with AS alone for a long time, while AS often has to deal with several other factions as well.
4. They are very aggressive, continuously advancing and attacking.
5. They are great at diplomacy, sending out loads of diplomats and making allies all over the place.

Now I don't mind 1, 3, and 5. They seem very historical to me.

But 2 and 4 are a pain in the arse!

I don't mind Egypt having lots of armies. She can afford it, after all. But her armies shouldn't be better in quality than the Seleucids, especially not in autocalc. The combination of superior quantity AND superior quality is just too much for the AI to cope with.

Historically, Egypt seemed to me to be quite a conservative power, happy to hold what she had rather than go for all-out war. So a less aggressive AI 'personality' may be in order.

[bovi]

It's a very tight balance to make. In 0.8x the AS was just about always the superpower (gray death), while in 1.0 they only rarely beat the ptolies and the yellow death takes over the spot. Any concrete suggestions?

[Visitor13]

I don't know, make Carthage more hostile towards them from the start?

[konny]

Any concrete suggestions?

If that does not require a complete workaround of both factions, the Ptolees should not share MICs with AS. That would drasticly slow down their speed of expansion and give AS some time to breath.

[Gaivs]

Thats actually a very sensible rationale konny. Even if historically they were very similar, im sure for the sake of gameplay, make Ptolies and Makedonia share MIC's and have Seleucids share with Baktria, or Ptolies and Baktria etc.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Konny's idea is a good one.

Also:

1. Make sure that the Ptolemaic units (Galatians and Phalanx units especially) aren't overpowered in autocalc battles. One of their bonuses needs to be reduced to achieve that. Can't remember which one though.

2. Restrict the recruitment areas for Galatians. Only a very few provinces should be able to recruit that unit, the major settlement areas for Galatians. Galatia itself obviously, possible Alexandria or Memphis also if that's where the major Galatian ex-patriate communities were settled. Outside of those few areas, Galatians should be available only as mercenaries.

3. Change the Ptolemaic AI 'personality' to a more conservative type. They should not be 'Napoleon' or 'Ceasar'. They need a more cautious and safer strategy that involves guarding Egypt and Palestine very strongly, but only advancing when they are certain of victory. They should not be treacherous, but honorable - and only very rarely attack their allies, if ever.

[marodeur]

Konny's idea is a good one.

Also:

1. Make sure that the Ptolemaic units (Galatians and Phalanx units especially) aren't overpowered in autocalc battles. One of their bonuses needs to be reduced to achieve that. Can't remember which one though.

2. Restrict the recruitment areas for Galatians. Only a very few provinces should be able to recruit that unit, the major settlement areas for Galatians. Galatia itself obviously, possible Alexandria or Memphis also if that's where the major Galatian ex-patriate communities were settled. Outside of those few areas, Galatians should be available only as mercenaries.

3. Change the Ptolemaic AI 'personality' to a more conservative type. They should not be 'Napoleon' or 'Ceasar'. They need a more cautious and safer strategy that involves guarding Egypt and Palestine very strongly, but only advancing when they are certain of victory. They should not be treacherous, but honorable - and only very rarely attack their allies, if ever.

I can only agree with that. Especially No. 2 will have a great effect, because the galatians are simply too powerful and I am not sure whether their recruitment-area is historically correct. Especially if you keep in mind, that for example the seleukids can't recruit galatians in those areas - historically they would have done it too, if it had been possible.

[General Appo]

Yeah, it´s annoying as Karthasdim to get tons of heavy Galatian infantry thrown at you near Augila and Ammonion. I mean, Celts in Turkey, okay I can go with that, it´s historical after all, but Celts in the middle of the Sahara?
It´s double annyoing since I can´t recruit anything in those areas except some weak skirmishers.

[Theodotos I]

I don't know. I'm on my fourth campaign in 1.0(Baktria, Getai, Kart-hadast, and now Pahlava), and I've never seen the balance of power between the Diadochi truly upset. Either the Ptolies make nice with the AS, or they fight back and forth between each other, slowing gaining ground and then losing it. When you look at history, that doesn't seem unreasonable. Neither nation were exactly weaklings.
Of course, all my previous campaigns have ended around 200 BC, so maybe that's the problem. I'll certainly be playing the Pahlava far past that date. :juggle2: Things are getting interesting!