View Full Version : Creative Assembly Armour Piercing...
This is a nice addition to the game, it can make or break battles.
But I have some gripes with it, or questions rather:
The formula is something like this (longjohn I think posted it)
Normal melee + ((target armour - 3)/2)
That means it is only effective against units with armour of 5 or above (it gains 1 at 5 and 6 2 at 7 and so forth).
There are not really that many units that can field 5 in armour, so it hampers the effectiveness of the eariler AP units, such as Vikings, Urban Militia and Gallowglass (Gallowglasses are fine though). It even seems that really low armoured units can be a bad target to attack. Lets take the Gallowglasses against Peasants:
5 + ((1 - 3)/2) = 4... I certainly don't hope that is how it works.
Or am I wrong, and the AP units do not get a penalty from their ability, and they get a bonus from units with only 4 in armour (half a point)?
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
MagyarKhans Cham
09-18-2002, 22:42
its alreeady confusing, thats why our han relies on smart trial and error, in field observations
The formula according to the strategy guide is bonus = (armor - 2) / 2. So, you'll get a 1 point bonus against armor or 4. Since the combat factors are integers, I don't think there is any bonus against armor of 3 or less. The shield and the portion of the armor belonging to the horse for cav units is removed before the bonus is calculated.
Forgot to ask this:
Does shields count into the equation of AP? I suppose it does, but it would be nice to get this cleared up.
And how does the AP for the Longbows work?
I remember the crossbows from MI just had a large power rating compared to that of the bows. I have had experiences with the Longbows that would actually not count in that way (killing more heavy units thena light ones), so is it the same this time?
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Typical...
I get two replies while writing... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Thanks Puzz. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
But how much of the armour of a Kataphraktoi, for instance, is horse armour? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 09-18-2002).]
Arkatreides
09-18-2002, 22:57
Well, the only way I 'think' you can resolve the issue is by looking at the strat guide. There every armour is named, so with a bit of guesswork( i.e. start with units without shield or horse) you can allocate an armour value to each named type.
longjohn2
09-19-2002, 00:49
Puzz is correct, theoretically units should get a bonus of +1 against units of foot of 4 armour, and against horse units of 5 armour. Sadly I found a bug today, so that you will only start getting bonuses against foot units of 5 armour.
For calculating armour piercing bonuses, shields don't count, but horse armour does (as it isn't counted separately ).
I've changed this for the patch, so that bonuses will start against foot with 3 armour ( chainmail ) or cavalry with 4 armour ( some of cavalry's armour factor is due to the horse which is soft and squishy).
I reduced the effectiveness of the armour piercing bonus late in the project, as I noticed that all the units Activision complained about as being too powerful had axes or halbards, but in retrospect that was a bad move.
Armour piercing works differently with missiles. Each missile type has an armour penetration rating. The target's armour is multiplied by this, before deciding whether a kill is scored.
The factor for bows is 1, and for longbows it's 0.5, so when hit by a longbow, units count half as much armour as they actually have ( can't remember if this includes shields too ). These stats will be in separate file in the patch.
Arkatreides
09-19-2002, 01:27
Ah, excellent! That clears things up a lot. Thanks for the info (and for adding the new data to the patch)
What a great post, I got everything answered. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Thanks Longjohn.
Quote Originally posted by longjohn2:
Sadly I found a bug today, so that you will only start getting bonuses against foot units of 5 armour.[/QUOTE]
Ahh... That is why the V2 Almohad Urban Militia (450 florins) do so well against the V0 Varangian Guard (550 florins). Good to know the patch moves it down to 3, that way you actually have to fear the AP.
So armour actually has an effect on the Longbows... hmm... Makes sense I guess, the same values goes for Crossbows I suppose.
So Arbalesters have something like a 0.3 modifier going for them (we all know they punch through almost all armours)?
I have still not understood horsearmour. They contribute 1 armour to the unit? Seems like that from the AP calculation.
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Great info
Cheetah, please consider this tread for the index.
Dionysus9
09-19-2002, 06:29
Quote Originally posted by longjohn2:
. . . ( some of cavalry's armour factor is due to the horse which is soft and squishy). . .
.[/QUOTE]
Hey, most of my men's heads are sofy and squishy too....dont I get a bonus for that?
Couscous
09-19-2002, 08:04
I hope the armour bonus v missiles does include shields. Otherwise why on earth are they carrying them? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Arkatreides
09-19-2002, 18:18
Shields definitely add to armour for anti-arrow purposes, though I don't think the armour piercing effect of arrows counts for shields.
Anyway on a slightly different note (Terms used in the strat guide):
Light Mail = +1 armour
Mail = +2 armour
Half-Plate = +3 armour
Full-Plate = +5 armour
Horses always add +1 to armour
(some horses (knight horses?) add +2)
Barded (Horse armour) = +1 armour
Full (Horse armour) = +2 armour
Quote Originally posted by Couscous:
I hope the armour bonus v missiles does include shields. Otherwise why on earth are they carrying them? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif[/QUOTE]
Well, I'm quite sure an Arbalest bolt would penetrate a normal shield if it normally penetrated plate armour. And the shields does add a bonus, even if they face Longbows as the AP modifier is only 0.5 of the armour is effective.
Lets say Feudal MAA gets fired at by Longbows from the front, that means the shield is in use. If the shield is included into the AP of the Longbows then it would be (inert armour 3 + shield bonus 2)* 0.5 = 2.5. If not then it would be 3 * 0.5 = 1.5 + 2 = 3.5.
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Arkatreides
09-19-2002, 18:25
Hmm, I agree with you Kraxis, but would a bolt, after penetrating a shield, still have enough momentum to then penetrate the armour as well?
How does one know if the Horse is Barded or Full? I guess Kataphraktois are Full, but I'm not so sure about the others.
So if I (after that patch) goes into a fight with my AP unit fighting Kats they will get +3 to attack because of the Armour being 7 (where 2 are from the horse)???
While against the Almohad Urban Militia I will only get +1 from the 4 armour they have (we don't count shields).
And lastly, I have wondered a bit about the Varangians (yes I do like them http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif). They have their shields on the back during melee, does that mean they don't get the benefits from its protection if I get charged head on???
The men seems to respond at once to contact with the enemy, that might mean they sling the shields on their backs just as the enemy charge reaches them, making sure that defensive bonus the shield gives them is now on the back as impact is made.
The same I guess goes for themselves charging, but that is less important to know.
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Ark, the shield does stop the bolt somewhat, just not as much as it would have stopped a normal arrow.
But I suspect we have the case of the second incident, where the Feudals have 3.5 in Armour. Experience seems to tell me that.
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Arkatreides
09-19-2002, 18:39
Re Horse: Look in the stats file. You have three types of horse: LiHorse (Light Horse), KHorse (Knight Horse) and ArmHorse (Armoured Horse). I believe these correspond to None, Barded and Full Armour.
Re Shield on Back: The shield now provides a bonus to missile fire from behind and from getting reared. This makes them ideal against friendly fire http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Yeah I have gathered that much (concerning the shield on the back), but if it protects the man during impact is a much different matter. If it doesn't, then you need to get them out of the way of charges, and their own shield protects against attacks to the rear.
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
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