Final word on spearmen tactics?

[Dorkus]

So is it better to charge or hold?

Obviously, survivability comes first, but if charging doesn't affect spearmen's defense and/or rank bonus at all, why not get a little bonus to attack in the first round?

[MajorFreak]

mmmmmm...i'd like to know this too. against horse, is it better to just stand there in hold/tight and take it? or is the "against horse bonus" non-exclusive to standing your ground? Can you get the charge AND anti-cav bonus combined? If so i think i'll order charge as SOP

[Yoko Kono]

always charge on a one on one situation, that way you recieve a a charge bonus and provided you keep formation you retain other bonuses as well
the only time i would never charge is if i had several spearmen in a line and wanted to keep my group formation intact

[MajorFreak]

?? group formation what? is that like in tactical or actual game bonus?

[Dorkus]

Group formation has to do with the extra rank bonus of spearmen. Apparently, if spearmen's tight orderly formation is broken, then they lose some or maybe even all of their extra rank bonus.

Dunno if it works with charge though. Spearmen generally have a great charge bonus and lousy attack ratings, but if they lose their extra rank or cavalry bonuses, then it's not worth it.

[turken00]

This is a good topic actually. When im defending I usually charge my spearmen into the enemy if they have archers, I dont want them to sit around and be bait for arrows. If the enemy is short on missile troops, I will hold my ground, with spearmen at the front, archers right behind them, followed my cavalry. This formation works perfectly to counter a frontal charge, however if the enemy tries to flank its a different story.

[Yoko Kono]

by group formation i meant several units of spearmen standing next to one another
by charging one forward i would expose that unit and it would suffer morale penaties for having exposed flanks

[Forward Observer]

Great topic!

In real historical combat, the spearman's or pikeman's best bet was to stand his ground against cavalry, but does that also hold true in MTW.

Something that should also be considered when discussing this topic is how to best work in unison with your missile units. If you use the standard 3 line defense fromation shortcut command in the game, your archers will be lined up in front of your spearmen with the archers on skirmish mode. This seems to be the optimum set up for defense against just about any army but one that is cavalry heavy.

The problem in that situation is that if the enemy cavalry charges immediately, your archers are not going to get off many shots before they have to fall back. Of course they have to stop shooting when they do this and sometimes their fall back position is in disaray or even mixed into the ranks of the spearmen.


An alternative in this could be to use the Eastern defense, which puts the archers behind the spearmen from the start. This is fine for defense against all cavalry, but not too good against other troops because your first missile hit range is reduced.

The next choice, if using the 3 line defense, would be to put your frontline archers on hold position, and move your spearmen through their ranks to meet the charging cavalry. This last option does require some coordination to keep from opening up holes in your army and exposing flanks as previously mentioned.

I always went with the hold position for archers in STW and charged the spearmen through when needed. One reason that I did this was that whether it is correctly modeled in the game or not, I knew that the Yari spear is really a sword on a stick, and therefore more offensive in nature than most European pole arms.

If my army is archer heavy, I will line up archers both in front and back of my rows of spearmen. The rear archers are on hold while the front are on skirmish. This keeps constant missile fire up in most situations.

There are so many options here that I would really like to hear some more comments on this topic.

Also, has anyone tried any of the odd army formation pre-sets like the Scorpion, the English defense, or the half square? I have been a bit hesitant to experiment with these in a campaign.

Cheers


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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.

[The Illustrated Man]

... charging spearmen/pike type people seem to have a rough time if they charge when they're occupying higher ground (even if they still hold higher ground when they engage).

I found this out during one of those battles with the steep hill with a sheer side... took up a good defensive position, I wasn't badly outnumbered and had decent troops, had a halfway decent general and wanted to get the charge bonus but still hold the higher ground... I got tonked, even though I held the higher ground and forced the enemy to all approach from the same direction...

still, I guess thats medieval combat for yer.



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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers, for he today that sheds his blood with me, shall be my brother be he ne're so vile, this day shall gentle his condition. And Gentlemen in England, now a bed, shall think themselves accursed they were not here and hold their Manhoods cheap, whilst any speaks that fought with us upon Saint Crispines day.

William Shakespeare - Henry V

[longjohn2]

The important thing with spears and pikes is to keep the formation. If you keep formation then charging is worthwhile as you get a pretty decent charge bonus.

However, when you charge, the unit moves towards the leader of the of the other unit. If he isn't dead straight ahead, then your unit will have to turn, and if the enemy are close by, the formation may not have time to sort itself out before impact. In this situation it'd probably be better to stand and receive the charge.

The same goes for charging through your own archers. If the spear/pike unit can get through the archers and have enough time for the formation to reform, then it's ok. Get caught while still tangled up with the archers, and you'll be in trouble though.

The way spears work has changed quite a bit MTW, so you can't necessarily rely on Shogun tactics

[hrvojej]

When can we say that the spearmen/pikemen do not hold their formation any more? How many men should not be in neatly packed rows for them to lose the bonus? How far away should they be? Often when they charge, the formation looks more like an arrowhead than the rectangle, does that count? Sometimes if I give them the different target while they run which is to their flank, they charge it without wheeling the formation, but still face it. In other words, it looks like they hit it with their flank, but they are all facing the correct direction. Is that flanking, do they get the bonus, or what? And when the melee develops, usually after the charge, they get intermingled with the opponenets, so I guess they don't get the bonus anymore, right? But when do they get the bonus then, since I've never seen them just stand there, there's always an intermingling of some degree going on?

[Dorkus]

Thanks for the reply longjohn! VERY helpful http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

One thing that has always made me curious:

Clearly, spearmen are great defensive units. They seem to hold amazingly well against infantry and cavalry alike. Yet if you look at their stats (other than SAPs), their defensive ratings are underwhelming. So are they getting some sort of defensive bonus against ALL units?

Against cavalry, clearly there's an explicit bonus. But their success against infantry really makes me think that they're getting some extra bonuses....

[This message has been edited by Dorkus (edited 10-05-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Dorkus (edited 10-05-2002).]

[Nelson]

Kerns and other javelin types can also do great execution while standing behind another formation.

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