Naked fanatics

[blado]

I was in a battle with the barbarians, me being the Romani. I had just finished destroying their army and they had 120 naked fanatics left. I sent my army to take care of them and they all routed, the naked fanatixs loosing only one man. What is up with that? They don't even have any armor. Is there a mod to reduces their power because I don't find this realistic at all, 120 men routing an army of over 2000.

[Tristuskhan]

Well, now you know you have to be cautious when you see some of them. Dunno if there is a mod but I know you can go along with them.

Something more: it seems that you hate them so far. Hire some naked mercenaries and you'll soon think their buttocks are the most beautiful thing in the game.

[Juvenal]

Gaesatae rightly put the fear of God(s) into the Romani. Only send high morale troops against them in melee and keep the ones facing their front in guard mode.

However, Gaesatae do make good pincushions - make sure you throw plenty of pointy sticks at them. They don't like cavalry either, so if you have any, try charging then up the butt while they are engaged with your cannon-fodder from the front.

[Stone and Blood]

They were realy strong, fearless warriors, but anyway, you must be playing with the very hard battle dificulty, wich increases a lot the stats and morale of your enemies.
Put camaping very hard, and battle medium dificulty, or challenge these monsters :).

[Seyduna]

At which difficulty are you playing? I suppose you are playing on VH difficulty in battles because 120 vs. 2000, as you say, is unrealistic for medium difficulty.
At VH, ai gets +7 attack and defence. In addition, that naked fanatics (Gaesatae) have 2 hit points making them harder to kill and have the ability to frighten nearby infantry.

[blado]

I'm on H/M. I have tried charging calvary but it killed like 2 of their men and than they turned around and slaughtered my calvary. This was near the end of the battle and I was out of spears. I sent triarii and principes to kill them. Most had 100+ men each. They did nothing but kill one like I said. I know they are fearless and all, but you can only go so far being naked...... So it kind of annoys me.

[Mediolanicus]

I went into the EDU and changed their 2HP into 1HP and 40% more defensive points. Now they are still strong as hell², but not as unbeatable as before.
(if you do this, don't forget do give their Galatian counter-parts the same treatment.)

[blado]

Where can I find that?

[TWFanatic]

Personally, I find them overrated (they drop like flies under missile fire to the rear), but it is odd that naked men have 2 hitpoints and 5 armor. I reduced their armor from 5 to 3 in my personal game and my mod (see unofficial mods section). It's easy to do.

[blado]

I might try that out in another campaign, but for now I just want to reduce the naked fanatic's overpoweredness.

[Watchman]

I've killed stacks of several rebel Gaesatae with nothing more than a few cruddy units of Sotaroas, a Gallic family member or two, and probably like one Leuce Epos. Or, out in Galatia, a bunch of those shortsword guys plus one Pontic FamiCav - and these were both in the old versions.

The OP must have been doing something wrong.

Off the top of my head I can think that to include "tired and depleted units" and "not enough missiles" - he former in particular which pretty much reads as "rout me" with the Nekkid Men. Fatigue and casualties lower an unit's morale (plus fatigue hurts combat performance), and the easily most cost-effective and convenient way to chip off the naked guys' HP buffer is to subject them to some intense ranged bombardement - they're a lot harder to hurt in melee, due to their very high defense skill.


Personally, I find them overrated (they drop like flies under missile fire to the rear), but it is odd that naked men have 2 hitpoints and 5 armor. I reduced their armor from 5 to 3 in my personal game and my mod (see unofficial mods section). It's easy to do.They've got armour 5 for around the exact same reason those northern longswordmen do, you know. The helmets - and in the case of the longswordmen, shirt - really do add up to that much (although Celtic and German troops without actual body armour also categorically get a bonus point for being big tough blokes).

[Tellos Athenaios]

Boy, I wish the Aedui would send me some Naked Fanatics to play games with, rather than those awfully unmannered Soldiers they prefer to waste in front of my beautiful Oppidum.

[konny]

Yes, save for the Gaesatae, most of those the Arverni and Aedui throw on me can't really pass for an army. Those endless lines of Lugoae usually break and run on first contact, taking the neighbouring units with them and after a really short fight the entire (former) pride of Gaul makes a footrace with all kinds of Eqvites for the edge of the map.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yes, save for the Gaesatae, most of those the Arverni and Aedui throw on me can't really pass for an army. Those endless lines of Lugoae usually break and run on first contact, taking the neighbouring units with them and after a really short fight the entire (former) pride of Gaul makes a footrace with all kinds of Eqvites for the edge of the map.

That was not what I meant, tbh. The Aedui haven't been nice to me, thrice in a row and the third time they meant business... but failed miserably due to abused AI confusement.

[NeoSpartan]

I've killed stacks of several rebel Gaesatae with nothing more than a few cruddy units of Sotaroas, a Gallic family member or two, and probably like one Leuce Epos. Or, out in Galatia, a bunch of those shortsword guys plus one Pontic FamiCav - and these were both in the old versions.

The OP must have been doing something wrong.

Off the top of my head I can think that to include "tired and depleted units" and "not enough missiles" - he former in particular which pretty much reads as "rout me" with the Nekkid Men. Fatigue and casualties lower an unit's morale (plus fatigue hurts combat performance), and the easily most cost-effective and convenient way to chip off the naked guys' HP buffer is to subject them to some intense ranged bombardement - they're a lot harder to hurt in melee, due to their very high defense skill.

....

this post bear repeating,

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I hate Gaesatae!!! Especially when they have experience lvl 8! I said 8!

Guess what happened to me. I fought the Arverni. They had only one settlement left. I positioned my army of Brihentin, Equites Romani, Sacred Band Cavalry, Punic Infantry, Ligurian infantry and even Neitos on a hill and thought of a quick win. What a mistake! Those experience lvl 8, yes 8, Gaesatae just chewed my troops like they were nothing. I played about 90 minutes in this battle, mainly because the enemy had a bug or something and so they didn't move any more after a certain point. Five of their units just stood their ground doing nothing. That was my luck I think, the reason why at least a 30% of my soldiers escaped the scene with nothing but their bare lives... One Gaesatae unit, together with another unit Gaelaiche, was confronted with three units Gaemile Liguriae (ok that's nothing awe inspiring), two units Liby-Phoenician infantry, two units Libyan infantry, one unit Neitos and got charged with two Alae Equites Romani. The Carthaginians lost each about hundred men, the Equites more than 90%, and the rest I really didn't count... 120 Gaesatae took out more than 600, probably about 800. That's not fair! They were completely surrounded and no way to escape.

There was also a unit of lvl 8 Uirodusios. Yeah again the naked! But the cheap ones. 80 men of the Sacred Band cavalry, 80 Brihentin, 40 Liby-Phoenician cavalrymen I lost to them till they got routed (when there were only 5 men left). Heavily experienced units are just ridicoulus.

[Spartan198]

I agree completely. Those Naked Fanatics are deadly. I've had even Spartan phalanxes literally cut to pieces by these guys. That's where archers and fire arrows come in handy,heh heh heh....

[The General]

I hate Gaesatae!!! Especially when they have experience lvl 8! I said 8!

Guess what happened to me. I fought the Arverni. They had only one settlement left. I positioned my army of Brihentin, Equites Romani, Sacred Band Cavalry, Punic Infantry, Ligurian infantry and even Neitos on a hill and thought of a quick win. What a mistake! Those experience lvl 8, yes 8, Gaesatae just chewed my troops like they were nothing. I played about 90 minutes in this battle, mainly because the enemy had a bug or something and so they didn't move any more after a certain point. Five of their units just stood their ground doing nothing. That was my luck I think, the reason why at least a 30% of my soldiers escaped the scene with nothing but their bare lives... One Gaesatae unit, together with another unit Gaelaiche, was confronted with three units Gaemile Liguriae (ok that's nothing awe inspiring), two units Liby-Phoenician infantry, two units Libyan infantry, one unit Neitos and got charged with two Alae Equites Romani. The Carthaginians lost each about hundred men, the Equites more than 90%, and the rest I really didn't count... 120 Gaesatae took out more than 600, probably about 800. That's not fair! They were completely surrounded and no way to escape.

There was also a unit of lvl 8 Uirodusios. Yeah again the naked! But the cheap ones. 80 men of the Sacred Band cavalry, 80 Brihentin, 40 Liby-Phoenician cavalrymen I lost to them till they got routed (when there were only 5 men left). Heavily experienced units are just ridicoulus.
Indeed.

[bovi]

my army of Brihentin, Equites Romani, Sacred Band Cavalry, Punic Infantry, Ligurian infantry and even Neitos
I spot a serious weakness.

[PershsNhpios]

Oh god, I hope he isn't suggesting the Celts are overpowered.

Throw a bag over head and sacrifice him to the historians!

The Gaesatae are nasty, but you never have to meet them in melee.
Just have a detachment of skirmishers ready, and you won't have to argue with 20 pages of registered arguments here.

[Mediolanicus]

Where can I find that?

You are referring to the EDU?

export_descr_unit

In your EB folder - Data (not in one of the maps inside data, but just in the map data itself).

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hm, I never had any trouble with gaesatae, even on vh difficulty... Rain javelins on them from behind, make sure you go at them with well rested troops, avoid line-to-line contact, use superiority in numbers well but don't exaggerate but rather keep some rested reserves to crash into them when they're tired, and keep having your units take turns attacking them. Kill the enemy general before going for them and make sure to rout and kill plenty if not all of the other enemy units before hitting them. Etc etc. They're not really that dangerous when you know how to fight them. I've won plenty of battles with trash armies against enemy armies that had 5 units of them, but I too had problems killing them when they were alone against my 2000 troops armies. It's a fun challenge, to try and learn how to defeat them, and can actually make you risk losing some battles every once in a while, unlike vanilla. :2thumbsup:

[Andronikos]

I'm on H/M. I have tried charging calvary but it killed like 2 of their men and than they turned around and slaughtered my calvary. This was near the end of the battle and I was out of spears. I sent triarii and principes to kill them. Most had 100+ men each. They did nothing but kill one like I said. I know they are fearless and all, but you can only go so far being naked...... So it kind of annoys me.

You should charge several times, charge, return, charge, return, charge, return... and you will rout them easily Missile unit are a good choice too, is absence of them a weakness you spotted, bovi?

[TWFanatic]

They've got armour 5 for around the exact same reason those northern longswordmen do, you know. The helmets - and in the case of the longswordmen, shirt - really do add up to that much (although Celtic and German troops without actual body armour also categorically get a bonus point for being big tough blokes).
The 2 hitpoints more than make up the bonus they get for being "tough blokes." A helmet and golden torc around the neck aren't exactly heavy armor. Additionally, the Gaesatae were historically vulnerable to missiles. According to Polybius, Roman pila turned them into pincushions at Telamon.

Don't get me wrong, I personally have no trouble countering Gaesatae. I just just find 5 armor a bit high statistically speaking for naked men, even if they do have rock hard abs and buns of steel.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I spot a serious weakness.
Ligurians are not the best, I know. And Equites Romani either. Btw I had two units of Celtic archers, I only forgot to mention. But sadly, Gaesatae are almost immune to arrows. The archers only killed like three of them, I guess it's because of their 2 HP.

[Watchman]

The 2 hitpoints more than make up the bonus they get for being "tough blokes." A helmet and golden torc around the neck aren't exactly heavy armor. Additionally, the Gaesatae were historically vulnerable to missiles. According to Polybius, Roman pila turned them into pincushions at Telamon.

Don't get me wrong, I personally have no trouble countering Gaesatae. I just just find 5 armor a bit high statistically speaking for naked men, even if they do have rock hard abs and buns of steel.
That's got nothing to do with it; the HP bonus is a trait entirely separate from the armour value.

Lemme spell out the math for you. Bare chest (0)+ metal helmet (3)+ cheekpieces (1)+ generic Celtic & German bonus (1)= 5.

For the sake of comparision, Peltastai have Linothorax (4)+ metal helmet (3)+ cheekpieces (1)= 8.

...see how it works now ?

As a side note it wasn't so much the pila of the heavy infantry as the tender attentions of the Velites and their rather larger supply of conventional javelins that did the naked guys in at Telamon. Which rather demonstrates the importance of a skirmish screen, and how seriously unarmoured infantry in particular could suffer without one.

[Torvus]

I generally change their armor bonus to 0 in the file. they are naked, a helmet isn't going to prevent someone from disemboweling you. I don't care what kinda drugs you're on, when your intestines are leaking onto the ground, you are going to die.

[Hooahguy]

That's got nothing to do with it; the HP bonus is a trait entirely separate from the armour value.

Lemme spell out the math for you. Bare chest (0)+ metal helmet (3)+ cheekpieces (1)+ generic Celtic & German bonus (1)= 5.

For the sake of comparision, Peltastai have Linothorax (4)+ metal helmet (3)+ cheekpieces (1)= 8.

...see how it works now ?
what about their shields- that counts for a lot......

[blado]

You guys seem like you aren't have many problems fighting the barbarians. I'm having a terrible time though. I sent a full stack of polybian units with plenty of ranged units this time, and I was promptly slaughtered. They still had 1500 men left at the end of the fight and I 500. I don't get it. My barbarian army is owning the other barbarians, while my Romani army gets slaughtered. I think it is because my barbarian units have archers and Romani have slingers.

[Watchman]

I generally change their armor bonus to 0 in the file. they are naked, a helmet isn't going to prevent someone from disemboweling you. I don't care what kinda drugs you're on, when your intestines are leaking onto the ground, you are going to die.:inquisitive: ...so you're going to claim wearing a helmet into battle isn't any better than going bareheaded ?
Bri-i-i-i-lliant. Let's see you get that argument past anyonewho knows the first thing about hand-to-hand combat, like, say, me, or every warrior throughout history who had a helmet as his #2 on the shopping list for defensive gear (#1 normally being shield)... or modern soldiers, for that matter.
I presume you're giving the same treatment to all other units whose worn defenses amount to a helmet of some kind, then, too ? :dizzy2:


what about their shields- that counts for a lot......Separate value, in the case you didn't know. An RTW unit's defensive attributes consist of armour, defense skill and shield, all of which behave differently in different circumstances (eg. defense skill doesn't amount to squat against missiles, shield only helps against attacks from the front and left...).

We're talking about the armour here.

[Torvus]

:inquisitive: ...so you're going to claim wearing a helmet into battle isn't any better than going bareheaded ?
Bri-i-i-i-lliant. Let's see you get that argument past anyonewho knows the first thing about hand-to-hand combat, like, say, me, or every warrior throughout history who had a helmet as his #2 on the shopping list for defensive gear (#1 normally being shield)... or modern soldiers, for that matter.
I presume you're giving the same treatment to all other units whose worn defenses amount to a helmet of some kind, then, too ? :dizzy2:

The helmet that the Nekkid Fanatics wear is the Montefortino type. Now, I believe Marius ditched that particular helmet type for the Coolus. the Montefortino provides next-to-no protection for the back of the head or the neck. if i were to give them a bonus for wearing that then the most i would give it is 2. That is my personal preference. it's nothing to get upset over.

I personally change a lot of things about the units in EB. when i play as the Saka, i put their cataphracts closer together, as KH i give the Spartans two hitpoints due to their extensive training from the age of seven to the age of eighteen, etc...

I know the EB people put a lot of effort into their units, but some things just don't make any sense.

[Watchman]

2 is what a leather helmet (sans cheekpieces) nets you under the EB system, FYI. I'd say a solid metal covering on ye old brainbox had a bit more stopping power...

Do recall, the head tends to be the part of the body most exposed behind the shield (already because the warrior needs to peer over that thing), and just about the part of the human body most sensitive to damage.

[blado]

You guys seem like you aren't have many problems fighting the barbarians. I'm having a terrible time though. I sent a full stack of polybian units with plenty of ranged units this time, and I was promptly slaughtered. They still had 1500 men left at the end of the fight and I 500. I don't get it. My barbarian army is owning the other barbarians, while my Romani army gets slaughtered. I think it is because my barbarian units have archers and Romani have slingers.

[bovi]

Ligurians are not the best, I know. And Equites Romani either. Btw I had two units of Celtic archers, I only forgot to mention. But sadly, Gaesatae are almost immune to arrows. The archers only killed like three of them, I guess it's because of their 2 HP.
I was talking about the lack of slingers, archers and skirmishers, yes. The archers in that part of the world aren't very effective either, but they should be way more effective than that if you made them attack the rear.

[Hooahguy]

I think it is because my barbarian units have archers and Romani have slingers.
strange, b/c slingers are AP, and IIRC, archers are not. in other words, slingers pwn archers....

[Watchman]

Well, shield values aren't affected by AP and archers often have higher attack values than slingers, making them better against lightly armoured enemies.

'Course, west of the Getai and Cretans European archers aren't really anything to write home about anyway...

[blado]

Well I don't understand why my barbarian army is fairing way better than my Roman army, which has been wiped out twice.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Probably because of a few things:
1) The Barbs come in considerably larger numbers, and are accustomed to the fighting style you encounter.
2) The Romans got a lot of armour, which isn't too useful compared to the simpeler kit of the Celts if you consider that the Celts get high attack/lethality combination called Axe and called Longsword. Plus hard hitting javelins.
3) Because you expected the Romans to win the war for you; and sent them on heavy duty.

In any case the Gaesatae are a piece of cake compared to some of the other Celtic units...

[unreal_uk]

Every faction has one or two units which will stand toe-to-toe with Gaesatae. When I invaded Gaul as the Casse, I made sure I had a few Ebherni units to tie up the Gaesatae in field battles while I wiped out the rest of the enemy. It worked every time. They usually attacked my flanks with Gaesatae, so I sent in a unit of Ebherni and a unit of regular Gaeroas to act as a meat shield and an initial storm of javelins. This kept the Gaesatae very much tied up until I was ready to deal with them. A unit of basic Gallic cavalry with repeated charges up the backside, plus javelin volleys, will help, too.

By the end of the battle, the Ebherni units that engaged Gaesatae DIRECTLY had lost, at most, 15 men.

[TWFanatic]

^^Indeed. The most powerful Celtic unit I've ever seen has to be those Kluddargos. They're even bigger than the Gaesatae (or so it appears), have the biggest sword in the game with extremely high lethality, attack, and ap ability, and 11 armor to boot. They have to be one of my favorite EB units (I still remember the first time I ever used them in my Casse campaign).

@Watchman: I'm speaking from a practical standpoint. The Gaesatae are almost impervious to missile fire, it takes piles of javelins, arrows, and stones to bring down those naked bastards. If you want to implement a second hitpoint, you should be ready to reduce the armor value so as to make them at least slightly vulnerable to missiles (as they were historically).

[Watchman]

'S the shield that does it, mainly (IIRC shield value doubles against missiles - now you know why it doesn't pay to shoot at phalanxes from the front...). But I don't recall having ever had real trouble whittling the buggers down with flying stuff.

Do recall, you don't actually see the first HP go...

[TWFanatic]

I find cavalry most effective against them. Perhaps that's just because of how I use cavalry, with hit-and-run charges (I never keep them engaged in melee for long). :charge:

[Watchman]

I recommend massive missile saturation and then repeated cavalry charges. Converging, if possible. They tend to start dropping fairly fast that way, although personally I prefer to use some big, solid, easily replenished infantry unit (preferably with javelins) as the anvil.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I was talking about the lack of slingers, archers and skirmishers, yes. The archers in that part of the world aren't very effective either, but they should be way more effective than that if you made them attack the rear.
Thanks for the advice. Normally I don't like too much infantry moving. Isn't it kind of ahistorical to move the archers around? Aren't they supposed to stay where they are? But I think against those bastards I should seriously consider some new tactics...:smg:

[pezhetairoi]

I've never had trouble with gaesatae, that is true. I've always fought the Gaulish gaesatae with Camillans, and come out on top (though casualties are another matter altogether). The Gauls in my Roman campaigns never last to reach the Polybians (except this time when I'm intentionally allowing the Arverni to dominate Gaul). When I play the Romani (VH/M) I always have a houserule, which is never to use missile troops with a longer range than javelins. And even then my javelinmen remain behind the line rather than outflanking or rearing. And yet, I never have any problem with gaesatae, because the trick is not only to pelt them with missiles, but to make them involved in the rout of the rest of the army, which WILL drop their morale however high it may be. The gaesatae in my battles have always routed with the rest of the enemy, because I always focus on holding them with hastati with triarii behind to take up the fight after the hastati run, and routing the -rest- of the army that isn't gaesatae. Once they rout I keep cav-charging down the line quickly, working my way towards the gaesatae. It's like some sort of combo, the faster and the more units you rout at one time the more massive the morale drain on remaining nearby units. Sometimes the gaesatae rout having only lost 20 men out of their 120, and my cavalry cut down the rest as they run, which is sort of a lot easier than having them trying to cut you down in return.

Don't go for gaesatae mano e mano if you can help it, and if you catch them alone, always, always isolate the fight, and don't keep sending in units when the first lot you sent in hasn't routed yet. Always rest your units where possible before going in to deal with gaesatae. Sending exhausted units depleted from hard fighting to deal with gaesatae at full strength is not a good thing. If one or two rout, your low-morale Camillans (or Polybians) will always invariably run for the hills en masse. There was an occasion when two gaesatae outflanked my Camillan line at the moment I routed the rest of the army, so I hurled my entire army against them piecemeal, adding them into the fray just as the other one routed, and it resulted that these two units of gaesatae routed my entire army, already exhausted.

[Watchman]

In other words, they are to be treated like any other scary bunch of elites - accounting for the particular quirks involved, naturally. Such as the way they're a lot more suspectible to missiles than the Thorakitai Argyraspidai or cataphracts.

[pezhetairoi]

Hear, hear.

[The General]

A properly thrown javelin will fell an unarmoured man, no matter how hardy.
~Some guy once back in time

[Stone and Blood]

I always fight with the eleutheroi's gasaetaes inside theyr cities, and is realy very easy. I just get 5 Slingers and use all theyr ammo hitting the gasaetae. Usually there are only 2 gasaetae garrisoning each city. When you hit them with the slingers, they and the rest of the army will run to the town plaza. Then you send the battering rams. Once you destroy the gates the enemies army will og back to the walls, and you the gasaetae with the slingers and with the javelins of your infantry. After a while they will run again to the plaza.
So pick your general and send him alone into the city, the enemies will run like crazy after him, once they get close, withdraw your general, and hit the gasaetae again with the slingers. Do this again and all the gasaetae will be dead and the whole army exausted. Send you army to the fight and the enemies will run to the plaza. There atack them with your whole army, and keep the slingers behind the enemies lines of the plaza and hit them to death.
My slingers get 200~300 kills each, and raise they levels.
It is realy easy. I don't use cavalry because they can't move freely inside the city, I just use them to hunt the routing enemies to the plaza.
It is realy easy!

[Mr Frost]

You could allways simply hire your own .
They're expensive , but worth it .

[Starance Quintus]

Reminds me sending my army east towards antioch and my entire army routed against so few, yer... I moved my entire western army because they defeated my eastern forces.

[Torvus]

More often than not, when i've played the Romani, my Triarii were enough to hold the naked ones at bay while i surrounded them with other romani elites (pedites extraordinarii, Samnites, etc...)