Strategic Help

[worlddomination88]

Ok. Im in the polibian reforms Got the typical 4 hastati 3 pricaples 3 triarai. Does your hastati hold out any good against the against the barbarians. Particularly Averi or Audui im in the typical cheacker board formation with the hastati in the front and it seams they just get creamed peaty fast against any heavy infantry unit. And I have to quickly engage my pricaples before I want to.

So any body got any good advise in receiving an attack or engaging in an attack against the enemy as the Romans?? I seamed to always get pounded pretty good when the other army is full strength weather I win or not.

Sorry for the bad spelling

[PershsNhpios]

Ha ha ha, I think you should resort to your principles more often.

When I play Rome, I rarely even use the manipular formation.
In fact, in all games I try and fight with a different style, as though that faction had suddenly undergone a military reform.

But to advise you, you aren't meant to wait until the Hastati rout before engaging the enemy.
They are meant to slowly give way by degrees, and then retreat behind the formation.
Same with the Principes.

Knowing Roman units in EB, it is doubtful a single celt will engage with a Triarius.

Oh, and it's ok to have 3-4 units of Auxiliaries - these will be your best, and more historical flankers.

[konny]

Ok. Im in the polibian reforms Got the typical 4 hastati 3 pricaples 3 triarai. Does your hastati hold out any good against the against the barbarians. Particularly Averi or Audui im in the typical cheacker board formation with the hastati in the front and it seams they just get creamed peaty fast against any heavy infantry unit. And I have to quickly engage my pricaples before I want to.

Hastati should be of the same number as Principes and Triarii 1/2 of that. Example: 4-4-2

The idea behind the Roman tactics is to have the Hastati fight in the first place and keep the Principes in reserve. At any point where the Hastati cannot succeed they are retreated and the Principes from the second line take over. That is, your best fighters are kept in reserve until you see where the fighting is the heaviest and your line runs into trouble. That's where the Principes will engage and not to be wasted against any militias that the Hastati can rout on their own.

You should withdraw the Hastati, may be, when they down to under 100 men or show serious signs of beeing close to routing.

And what was your startegical question? ;-)

[Dubius Cato]

The checkerboard means that enemy units get in between and flank the Hastati. Is this flanking a problem? Of course you could rush in the Principes, flanking them in turn, but that would defeat the withdraw-Hastati-bring-in-reserves purpose, right?

[worlddomination88]

HAHA ya I guess that would be my "Strategic" problem wrong choice of words. Thanks for the help konny.
One other question konny, you said that when the hastati cant hold there own the pricipes take over. Should I withdrawal the hastati then have the pricipes hit the barbarian unit left there?
Or should I engage the pricipes first? Then withdrawal the histati.

No not a flanking problem I don't think, they just get slaughtered quickly.
And ya believe it would defeat the purpose. I think im gonna experiment
with what konny was saying thowe. So ya im not real sure with answering
im stumped myself right now. Thanks for responding Dubius

[The Wandering Scholar]

I usually do this:

PPHHHHPP
T M G M T

H engage P flank, T stop cav from flanking you, G gives front line morale, M pepper them. Auxilla are a bonus for extra flanking.

[PershsNhpios]

I usually do this:

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

I think it's pretty self-explanatory.

[konny]

HAHA ya I guess that would be my "Strategic" problem wrong choice of words. Thanks for the help konny.
One other question konny, you said that when the hastati cant hold there own the pricipes take over. Should I withdrawal the hastati then have the pricipes hit the barbarian unit left there?
Or should I engage the pricipes first? Then withdrawal the histati.

I order the Principes to attack the unit the Hastati run in trouble with. Once the Principes make ready to throw Pila, I order that particular unit of Hastati to retreat behind the Triarii duoblequick. They can recover there and, beeing still some 90 men strong, can engage elsewhere later.

[CaesarAugustus]

Generally I find that the checkerboard formation is wasteful and will quickly decimate your Hastati, when fighting an army of equal or greater size. For this reason, I will usually send in the Hastati and Principes at the same time, sometimes withdrawing particular units so the enemy will pursue them through the gaps in the line and be easily flanked. This is especially uselful when fighting the phalanx, but also works with barbarians. Meanwhile, I will have my Triarii (lately I have bben foregoing historical accuracy and making legions with six of each Hastati, Principes and Triarii) engaging cavalry, providing support where my units are weakening, or generally causing havoc and flanking units.

[worlddomination88]

Cool interesting im gonna ask these kinda questions more for more incite.
Thanks everybody!

[Sdragon]

Be sure to make use of guard mode. This will give your Hastati far more staying power. You generaly wont need to pull them back since they get pushed back anyway and end up in line with the Principes. Your Hastati will still need retrainning after a couple of fights though.

[konny]

I would not use Hastati or Principes in guard mode. Their open formation makes them swarm around the flanks even of larger enemy units, like the 240-men Gauls. Units that fight in a very close formation, like Hoplites, they tend to completely envelope after them time of fighting.



(lately I have bben foregoing historical accuracy and making legions with six of each Hastati, Principes and Triarii)

That is only for the Camillan periode. In Polybian time the Triarii should be 1/2 of the Hastati or Principes. In your example: 6-6-3

[ajdeignan]

Hi All,

DON'T adopt the manipular formation INTO combat, it is simply a method of march to arrive at the moment of impact. Otherwise your hastati units will be swallowed by very large units of Gauls and eaten alive. If you play on huge and your units default formnation is 4-men deep, adopt a manipular formation that is 8-men deep, with a gap between units equal to one unit in 8-men depth. Just before the enemy arrive, expand the first line (Hastati) so that they are in 4-men ranks (close all gaps). Think like a phalanx; once Romans are in guard mode in a continuous line, they present are very armoured front. The principes (2nd line) maintain the 8-men depth until they are needed (expand to 4-men depth, then charge once they have expended all pilum). I don't retreat the Hastiti (lose too many men when you 'about face'), I simply move the Principe forward through the Hastati unit until it is in combat. At the same time the Hastati are getting pushed back anyway. It's very rare for me to use the Triarii at all (except to mop up the routers) - as was historical in victorious situations.

To koony;
I prefer to keep my Roman units in guard mode when on the defensive. The roman's have such poor charge bonuses that it's better to remain still and let the enemy crash into you ("hold the line"). In guard mode, my units tire the enemy without losing many of their own. This gives the flankers time to get around the sides. Plus roman units tended to grind the enemy into submission (very little individual impressive swordmanship).

[worlddomination88]

This seams all to be good incite ill try this myself and experiment.
But ya I have the problem with the bigger Gaul units swarming my hastati flanks. Thats kinda how they usually kick the crap out of my hastati.

I had time to use Konnys advice with engaging the hastati and when the priceps are about to throw their pilla id pull back the hastati.It worked really good but I was fighting Carthaginians not barbarians. It was elite African pike men it was cool cause my hastati would tire them out and they would after a few minutes be basically getting there buts kicked and id send in the priceps and they actually
routed elite African pike man with not to many causalities while the remainder of the hastati was resting. And the casualty rat wasn't to bad i cant say exactly thowe cause the hastati wasn't at full strength to start because of a previous battle.

But I had other things working in my advantage to.
I had a pretty good General, they had a captain I icolated the capten with my body guard and calvalry and killed the captain while making a foot race to the top of a hill. They were attacking.

Didn't the Romans do something historically like what ajdeignan was saying were they would make a solid wall before engaging or being engaged?? I think im gunna give this a try tonight.

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

The manipular formation works fine with half unit width gaps. Hastati with experience chevrons will hold pretty well with low casualties. A Roman Army needs time to train itself up

[konny]

I had time to use Konnys advice with engaging the hastati and when the priceps are about to throw their pilla id pull back the hastati.It worked really good but I was fighting Carthaginians not barbarians.

Elite African Pikemen are by far a stronger foe than anything the Gaulls can field (save may be Gaesatae of the same number). So, when worked in Africa it will very well work in Northern Europe.



But ya I have the problem with the bigger Gaul units swarming my hastati flanks. Thats kinda how they usually kick the crap out of my hastati.

You shouldn't be to strict with your lines: when the enemy's line is longer than yours, rush foreward the two outermost units of Principes to protect your flanks. Even better, when the Gauls are swarming around your flanks and will be attack by units of your second line that will hit them in the flanks.


And do not forgett: Romans usually fought with superior numbers (I do not belive the Roman stories of Barbarian mass armies as soon as the Romans poped up, while the Celts and Germanic fought their own wars with warbands of not more than some thousend men). So, do not fight against serious odds.

[worlddomination88]

Ill keep that in mind thanks. This really helps with my playing I have a good grasp on economy with EB now and stuff I just think a few decisive heroic victory's every so often would help out sometimes. Wer my army is not destroyed even if I win.
For all who responded thanks for my help

But if any body still has more to add or wants say something in responds to sum body feal free still to do so. I wond forget about this thread.

[KhaziOfKalabara]

The idea behind the Roman tactics is to have the Hastati fight in the first place and keep the Principes in reserve. At any point where the Hastati cannot succeed they are retreated and the Principes from the second line take over. That is, your best fighters are kept in reserve until you see where the fighting is the heaviest and your line runs into trouble. That's where the Principes will engage and not to be wasted against any militias that the Hastati can rout on their own.


Now, I'm a bit of a stickler for trying to do these things with a dash of historical accuracy (which I suppose is why I play EB rather than, say, RS); so does this mean that the checkerboard would have been maintained right up to the point of impact?

[The Wandering Scholar]

I usually do this:

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

I think it's pretty self-explanatory.


:thumbsdown:

[The General]

I usually do this:

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

I think it's pretty self-explanatory.
I, for one, didn't have any problems in understanding what he meant.

You silly pieface.

[konny]

so does this mean that the checkerboard would have been maintained right up to the point of impact?

We had this discussion some month ago. I say "no", others say "yes". For gameplay reasons I always use three lines, because there is no way to have your Velites run through the gaps of the Hastati, but most certainly they will run through the units themselves.

[Centurion Crastinus]

I always use the manipular formation. The exact ratio of units that I use are not completely accurate. I use 5 hastati, 5 principes, 3 Trarii, 2 velites, 1 general, one equites, one italic cavalry, and 2 itallic infantry. The Hastati, Principes, and Triarii are in three lines, and I place the Itallic infantry and the flanks behind the Principes. The Cavalry remains in the rear or out on the flanks.

[Sarkiss]

Hastati should be of the same number as Principes and Triarii 1/2 of that. Example: 4-4-2

it is possible to decrease a triarii unit size by half from 160 to 80 men (cost, attack/defence could be tweaked a little for balancing out) thus making it historically accurate... just wander what prevents EB team from making such an essential imo change....

[Watchman]

Most likely the fact they'd end up uselessly weak that way.

[konny]

it is possible to decrease a triarii unit size by half from 160 to 80 men (cost, attack/defence could be tweaked a little for balancing out) thus making it historically accurate... just wander what prevents EB team from making such an essential imo change....

Why should they? You certainly wouldn't field an army of 1x Hastati 1x Principes 1x Triarii. So, when you have more units in your army you can recreate the correct line up by having 1/2 fewer units of Triarii, assuming that each unit of Triarii represents the Triarii of two Legions standing in one line. Don't forget, you still have to deal with the 20-units limit to recreate a Consular army of 4 Legions, plus all the Extraordinarii, Auxilia, allies and the like.

[Sarkiss]

Why should they? You certainly wouldn't field an army of 1x Hastati 1x Principes 1x Triarii. So, when you have more units in your army you can recreate the correct line up by having 1/2 fewer units of Triarii, assuming that each unit of Triarii represents the Triarii of two Legions standing in one line.
you'll end up with having holes in your 3 line: 4x4x2, unless you deploy other unit types in places where triarii meant to be.

[Sarkiss]

Most likely the fact they'd end up uselessly weak that way.
i played that way in RTR, worked just fine even though iirc only cost and no other status were adjusted. you can adjust a bit other things too if needed. at the end of the day you really only need them in case of an extrodinary stubborn resistance, very difficult, prolonged battles. they are originally more of a reserve than an assault line.

[Parallel Pain]

Since it's tactics

Some balanced-army tactics.

I haven't really used them in EB, except the double envelopment (which I use line usually, but V's luring is effective when I used it). But I don't see why they can't work. They worked in Vanilla, and if use to the proper enemy formation they should work in EB too.

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/TheRam/RTW/Hanni.jpg

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/TheRam/RTW/HumanWaveAttack.jpg

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/TheRam/RTW/Alex.jpg

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/TheRam/RTW/TheFalloftheRomanEmpire.jpg

[konny]

you'll end up with having holes in your 3 line: 4x4x2, unless you deploy other unit types in places where triarii meant to be.

No.



Accensi Accensi
V e l i t e s V e l i t e s

Hastati Hastati Hastati Hastati
Eqvites Pedites & Eqvites Eqvites Consulares
Romani Princip Princip Princip Princip Extraordinarii (Tribvn)

Triarii Triarii

Eqvites Consvlares

[Sarkiss]

:laugh4:
you just illustrated what i was trying to describe.
by holes in a 3 line i meant its lack of units to cover gaps of a 2 lline.
beside other things it would be the most obvious and essential imo thing to do for any realism, historical accuracy based mod and EB is the best of them all.
but what do i care, i can hardly call myself a Romani fan :shrug:

[konny]

I use three lines, so there are no genuine gaps to be filled. I also sent the Principes one by one into the battle - just where there are needed, what must not be the part of the fighting right ahead of them. I keep the Triarii in reserve until either my line tends to break even with the Principes involved, or the enemy cavalry is somewhere appearing en masse and spearmen are desperatly needed.

That is for the Polybians. In Camillan times I use some classical hoplites tactics. That is the Triarii (here the same number as Principes or Hastati) in the center and the Hastati and the Principes on the wings of that. The Romans had allready abonded this formation in 272 BC for a good century, but I don't want to play two Manipular periods but want to experince the change from Hoplites to Maniples.

[pezhetairoi]

I maintain the checkerboard formation only when the enemy is weaker by quite a bit. In real fights I approach in checkerboard until just inside archer range, then form a solid line. I place the triarii and alae (6 hoplitai or 6 neitos, depending) in reserve, my principes in a second line between, still in checkerboard. Principes are used purely for filling in gaps in the hastati line when they advance, or to add weight or sustain a fight (e.g. in unequal fights against myself and my big brother argyraspidai). Flankers are the hoplitai or neitos. Triarii are used primarily for anti-cavalry flank protection, with a unit of alae in support with each, and the cavalry. Remaining alae are used for flanking if not required by as reserves.

[Tarkus]

I maintain the checkerboard formation only when the enemy is weaker by quite a bit. In real fights I approach in checkerboard until just inside archer range, then form a solid line.

Not sure what you mean by this...do you move your hastati from an 8-man front to a 4-man front, thereby filling the gaps in between units, while keeping principes in a second-line reserve?

Konny: Regarding your use of Camillan-style hoplite tactics...I find myself using very similar tactics, even while firmly in Polybian times. If I have a group of allied or merc hoplites in a legion, I will place them in the center-front of the line to "fix" the enemy. I can then wheel more mobile hastati and/or principes around to the flank to finish.

One final question: I too have found it difficult to perform a standard withdrawal of my hastati to make way for fresh principes, as the hastati tend to go through a pretty brutal few seconds of getting cut down while turning and moving to the back of the line. Is there any way to simulate a "fighting withdrawal" -- always keeping one's front to the enemy while giving ground?

I've found this discussion really interesting...thanks for the advice to all!

[Dubius Cato]

If I have a group of allied or merc hoplites in a legion, I will place them in the center-front of the line to "fix" the enemy. I can then wheel more mobile hastati and/or principes around to the flank to finish.


That is pretty much what I found myself doing in my current campaign. Fighting in Egypt, I am far away from any Polybian reinforcements. So to conserve my strength in these faraway lands, I am using Hoplitai Haplaioi (Greek levy hoplites), which I can easily retrain in Egypt proper, as the shock absorber. I retain the checkerboard and simply place another line of these hoplites (with the normal gaps) in front of the Hastati. Due to the gaps, only four hoplite units are sufficient to spread my front wide enough for all comers, with an equal number of Hastati and Principes/Neitos. That way I can deal with all those stacks the yellow fever is marching into Egypt from Asia, and still maintain a proper fighting force.

In the usual checker configuration, the hoplites' job is of course done by the Hastati. But they're more or less designed for fighting in Italy, with reinforcements close at hand, because they meant to take the losses.

I think the large number of *fresh* reserves in a checkerboard battle does make a difference. In addition, I find I can indeed maneuver the units from the back through gaps and without contact with the enemy into the back of flanks of the enemy quite often. Especially when shaping the unit to fit the width of the gap. This freedom of maneuver as a coherent unit is important I think, and standing in a solid line with another solid line in front is detrimental to that.