Italian Tech Tree?

[ArtistofWarfare]

I have a slight issue again...

I need to know where to find a list of what buildings I need to construct in order to recruit certain units for the Italians.

I obviously have my 1133 AD campaign thread going and I'm just about to start playing again tonight but I realized that I am not 100% sure of what buildings to construct for certain units.

Specifically- Knights Hospitaller and Italian Infantry.

I have Rhodes, which produces +1 hospitaller foot knights, but I don't know what buildings to begin constructing there to get up to Knights. Royal court and beyond?

And as far as Italian Infantry goes- Yeah...I'm beginning to wonder how to start training these. I've mentioned it taking quite a while in another thread last week, but now I realize I really don't know how far up the tree they are.

I've researched "Yas' Tools" and other sites but they just don't give a straightforward answer to tech tree related questions. For example, it says only a spearmaker's guild is required for the Italian Infantry. I don't think this is accurate as I already have this building and can't train Italian Infantry.

Thanks for the help...as this is really the only question I still have unanswered before I can fully move forward with this campaign...

It's just been a frustrating ordeal to find this information...

Let me clarify something about the Foot Knights: Am I understanding correctly that you can never train foot knights but only dismount them? If so, how do I "train" foot knights in Rhodes to get the +1 to them? Hospitaler knights only come from Crusade units, so I'm not understanding exactly how to get them going in Rhodes. Do I need a Chapter house constructed there?

Second Edit: Ok- Looked something over and I see that it IS just a spearmaker's guild required for the training of Italian Infantry. I don't have any of those yet but recall my planning on this, as I can have them in just a few years by constructing one in Tuscany. I just didn't need them yet.

So that's answered- So the only real question right now is the one regarding Hospitaler Foot Knights. Again- I get a +1 valour to these when they're "trained" in Rhodes, however this is only a dismounted Crusading unit. So does that mean that a Chapter House would have to be constructed in Rhodes?

Thanks again and I apologize for the scattered nature of this post...I'm just in a hurry to dive back into this campaign.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

I've never understood that either, as far as I understood it, although I wasn't really a fan of the Italians, you would have to train a crusade there and hope you got Hospitallier Knights. Am I right that, on occasion you do get Foot Knights with a crusade in stead of the normal variety?

I'm sorry its been a while since I played but as I've said I assume you'd have to 'train' a crusade on Rhodes.

[bamff]

You can train both Feudal foot knights and Chivalric foot knights in XL, but not in vanilla MTW or MTW:VI (IIRC). As for the "crusading knights" such as Hospitallers, Templars, and Knights of Santiago, I don't know that you ever get them outside of a crusade, and I believe that what you get for your crusade is a touch "pot luck"...

All of which raises the question - "Why give a region bonus to a unit that you cannot actually train?"

[Martok]

You can train both Feudal foot knights and Chivalric foot knights in XL, but not in vanilla MTW or MTW:VI (IIRC). As for the "crusading knights" such as Hospitallers, Templars, and Knights of Santiago, I don't know that you ever get them outside of a crusade, and I believe that what you get for your crusade is a touch "pot luck"...
Correct. In vanilla MTW/VI, Crusader units cannot be trained. You only get them if/when they appear in Crusades.

Likewise, the game does not allow one to train "foot knights" of any sort. Thus, the unit bonuses in Rhodes and Ile de France are useless (unless you're playing with some sort of mod, of course).




All of which raises the question - "Why give a region bonus to a unit that you cannot actually train?"
Well when I played the Spanish in the vanilla game, I nearly always started my Crusades in Leon. I did this primarily because any Knights of Santiago that I got would then benefit from the +1 bonus there.

I've done the same in my Sicilian campaigns with regards to Malta and the Hospitallers -- I launch Crusades from Malta so any Hospitaller Knights recieve the +1 valour bonus there. :yes:


All that said, it does seem rather silly that certain regions give valour bonuses to Crusade units when they can't be trained in vanilla MTW/VI. (Which is another reason I like the Pocket Mod, as I can finally train my respective Crusading Knights, provided I have the necessary infrastructure built. :2thumbsup: )

[MJF]

im not sure if this is correct but this is how ive always read it.

you cant build dismounted units in vanilla games but you can dismount the units in certain conditions i.e. sieges.

so if you produced a crusade in rhodes and obtained some hospitaller knights, if you storm a city, and during the siege battle you dismount the knight units, they will obtain a bonus valour. however, if you left them mounted, they would not get this valour bonus. the opposite applies if the crusade was built in malta (with valour bonus for mounted knights).

hope this helps

[ArtistofWarfare]

Thanks for the replies...always so fast, appreciated.

The one question that still stands out here...that would save me I don't know, 600 florins and a few years (chapter house) is: Would simply constructing a crusade out of a chapter house in Venice and then having it sit a turn in Rhodes be sufficient to get Hospitaller Knights that would eventually dismount to a +1 status, or do I have to actually have the Chapter House in Rhodes, with the Crusade originating in that point? (As MJF wrote) :inquisitive:

Or- Am I still totally overcomplicating it and it's: Built Crusade....as units pop up in different provinces (is this how it's going to work?) hope that one of them is "Hospitaller Knights" originating in Rhodes? Then simply dismount them in battle?

:dizzy2:

I mean indeed...it's almost, as Martok put it, as if the +1 is just useless...same with Ile de France, yeah. In vanilla, of course. It's just too much to go through for a +1, considering it's a provincial bonus. No bonus, just some pipe dream.

Additionally here:

Forget Foot Knights for a minute- I was always under the impression that a crusading army had to be in a province in order for Crusading troops to appear in that province. It almost seems as if it's being suggested (and hence the aforementioned question) that troops just pop up once a Crusade has been constructed by that faction...anywhere it has a province.

Which is the case...or is it...both? :wall:

[macsen rufus]

When dismounting units the valour doesn't change - a v0 mounted knight will dismount to a v0 foot knight even if it was trained in a v1 province for foot knights.

In XL (well certainly in v2, I've still not installed v3 yet....) the Crusade units are trainable by some factions - the Crusader states get ALL of them, including foot knights, and the Maltese Knights and Teutonic Order get their own respective units.

Other than this (and in Vanilla) crusader troops (Order Foot, various knights, and the less than overwhelming religious fanatics) will only be created IN a crusade stack once the crusade is launched. They will not appear anywhere else. You will not pick up any more en route - quite the opposite, they will desert just like other units, though maybe more slowly...

When a crusade passes through a province it can gain troops through two processes: it will suck some out of whatever army is there already, and it will recruit some from the "facilities", if zeal is high enough. I had played a long while before I'd noticed this second method when I realised that my crusade had picked up unit types that were not actually present in the province, but were trainable there.

Also crusade composition varies year to year. It doen't vary with destination - if you launch a crusade in say 1200AD, wherever you send it, it will start with the same troops. If you don't like the selection (ie all fanatics and no knight ~D) then reload and try next year. You may get a much better selection :bow:

[Martok]

im not sure if this is correct but this is how ive always read it.

you cant build dismounted units in vanilla games but you can dismount the units in certain conditions i.e. sieges.
Correct. Many mounted units can dismount, depending on the situation. Some units can dismount in any type of battle, some can dismount only in sieges, and a few cannot dismount at all.


so if you produced a crusade in rhodes and obtained some hospitaller knights, if you storm a city, and during the siege battle you dismount the knight units, they will obtain a bonus valour.
As macsen rufus has said, this is incorrect. To reiterate:

When dismounting units the valour doesn't change - a v0 mounted knight will dismount to a v0 foot knight even if it was trained in a v1 province for foot knights.
:yes:

[Martok]

To address each of your points in order:




The one question that still stands out here...that would save me I don't know, 600 florins and a few years (chapter house) is: Would simply constructing a crusade out of a chapter house in Venice and then having it sit a turn in Rhodes be sufficient to get Hospitaller Knights that would eventually dismount to a +1 status, or do I have to actually have the Chapter House in Rhodes, with the Crusade originating in that point? (As MJF wrote) :inquisitive:

Or- Am I still totally overcomplicating it and it's: Built Crusade....as units pop up in different provinces (is this how it's going to work?) hope that one of them is "Hospitaller Knights" originating in Rhodes? Then simply dismount them in battle?

:dizzy2:
Yes, you are overcomplicating things somewhat. That's okay, though; we're here to help. ~:) Here's how it works:

Any time you want your faction's particular Crusading Knights (Hospitaller, Santiago, Templar, or Tuetonic) to start with the +1 valour bonus, then your Crusade(s) must originiate in the province with that bonus. In other words, the French & English would need to launch future Crusades from Jerusalem to get v1 Templars, the Spanish/Aragonese need to launch Crusades from Leon to get v1 Knights of Santiago, and so on.

So in your specific case, you would need to launch all your Crusades from Malta in order for your Knights Hospitaller to start with the +1 valour bonus. :yes:




I mean indeed...it's almost, as Martok put it, as if the +1 is just useless...same with Ile de France, yeah. In vanilla, of course. It's just too much to go through for a +1, considering it's a provincial bonus. No bonus, just some pipe dream.
Not almost useless -- IS useless. Provinces with +1 valour bonuses to *any* kind of foot knights in vanilla MTW/VI do absolutely nothing. Rhode's bonus would only be worth anything if there was a specific unit called Hospitaller Foot Knights. Likewise, the bonus in Ile de France doesn't help unless someone were to specifically add Chivalric Foot Knights to the game.

It was only a minor oversight on CA's part that these bonuses were left in, but it's caused considerable confusion over the years -- such as now. ~:rolleyes:



Additionally here:

Forget Foot Knights for a minute- I was always under the impression that a crusading army had to be in a province in order for Crusading troops to appear in that province. It almost seems as if it's being suggested (and hence the aforementioned question) that troops just pop up once a Crusade has been constructed by that faction...anywhere it has a province.

Which is the case...or is it...both? :wall:
A certain number of troops will sponaneously appear in the province from which the Crusade originates, but *only* in that province. However, you can deliberately add men to the Crusade as it passes through your lands, and troops from your regular units may automatically join the Crusade as well.


Perhaps I can better explain this by giving you an example. Let's say I'm playing a Spanish campaign -- which is common for me ~D -- and that I want to launch a Crusade against the Almohads, with the specific goal of taking Morocco from them. And for this particular scenario, we'll say that I already own the Iberian peninsula. Here's how it would go down:

I'll build a Chapter House in Leon (after first building a Keep and a Church, of course). I then train a Crusade marker there. Once I feel I'm ready, I pick up the Crusade marker and drop it on the province of Morocco; a message will pop up verifying whether I wish to Crusade there, and that I must pay a certain amount to do so. Once I've confirmed Morocco as my Crusade's destination, the Crusade marker will be back in Leon....but now it will have turned into an army stack as well, with usually around 300-500 men. With a certain amount of luck, at least some of these troops will be Knights of Santiago, along with some Order Foot, and probably a certain number of Fanatics. All of these units are "free" (aside from what I paid to launch the Crusade in the first place) -- they don't cost me any money to train or maintain, so long as they're part of the Crusade's army stack.

Now what I'll do is begin moving the Crusade stack towards Morocco, one province at a time. As the Crusade proceeds southward from Leon, it may pick up and/or lose troops along the way, depending on the zeal of my provinces as it passes through. (Note: If my Crusade picks up troops along the way, that usually means that a lot of my regular army "defected" to the Crusade -- this is something you need to be prepared and watch out for.) In addition, I'll often purposefully drag & drop troops onto the Crusade as it passes to further augment it's strength. (Hey, I don't have to pay my men if they're on Crusade, so why not? ~;) )

After several turns, the Crusade will reach Morocco. I may or may not have to fight to take it, depending on whether the Almohads decide to give battle or simply flee. Once the province is mine, the Crusade "disbands" into regular army stacks (whom I now have to start paying again). Any surviving Crusading units -- Fanatics, Order Foot, or Knights of Santiago -- will remain part of my army, although they still cannot be trained.



So that's how a typical Crusade goes (and Jihads as well, by the way). I hope my explanation helped. :sweatdrop:

[ArtistofWarfare]

I definitely have it understood completely now...thank you to Martok, Bamff, Macsen Rufus, MJF...all of you.

This IS how I understood it in the past...it's just that my newfound information hunt on MTW now that I'm playing again has caused a few bees to buzz around in my head.

This does help a lot though...

I didn't want to wind up with Chapter Houses sitting in places for no good reasonm, or for the wrong reason.

Malta will absolutely be my Crusade launcher once I get it...

Which actually, coincides perfectly with my military planning right now.

(I'll do some writing later, but in that campaign I'm having it looks like I'll be invading Sicily quite soon here).

[caravel]

Not almost useless -- IS useless. Provinces with +1 valour bonuses to *any* kind of foot knights in vanilla MTW/VI do absolutely nothing.
I've lost count of the number of times I've read people posting along the lines of:

"build CKs in Ile de France and dismount them in battle to get +1 valour CFKs!!!!!!111!!11"

How they've reached the conclusion that the dismounted units actually get this bonus is any ones guess...

As Martok has put it, these are useless valour bonuses that were left in place by the developers whom had obviously intended to include foot knights as a trainable unit then resolved to leave them as dismounted units.

[Ravencroft]

Agreed. The foot knight bonus is entirely useless. Unless...

Like me, you use gnome to modify the game to either remove the valour bonus like transferring ile de France's bonus to CMAAs or to make them buildable like in the case of Hospitaller and Gothic Foot Knights( both need a swordswmith's guild, and both are restricted to certain factions). heheh...:laugh4:

[caravel]

You can indeed make them trainable though the cost and build requirements need to be pretty high and the unit size needs tweaking. Personally in the case of CFKs I think they should be in only 20 scalable units with their current stats. Anything higher and they are far too deadly.