Grafical change?

[The Wicked]

Hi ! is it possible to change the length of sarissas in the phalanx so when the phalanx is bracing the pikes will stand out from the first rank equally in length? so the first rank will have shorter pikes than the second rank and the second rank shorter from the third..

[Watchman]

A) Why in the world ?
B) Pretty certain it's impossible.

[Foot]

b) for certain it impossible. Really, really impossible. There is not even any suggestion that it could be possible.
a) I'm with watchman on this. Why would you even want to do this?

Foot

[abou]

A) Why in the world ?

There is a weak theory that this was the case in the phalanx so that a blunt wall rather than a series of pikes would face the enemy.

[The Wicked]

A. Well i red this: Many considerations may easily convince us that, if only the phalanx has its proper formation and strength, nothing can resist it face to face or withstand its charge. For as a man in close order of battle occupies a space of three feet; and as the length of the sarissae are sixteen cubits according to the original design, which has been reduced in practice to fourteen; and as of these fourteen four must be deducted, to allow for the weight in front; it follows clearly that each hoplite will have ten cubits of his sarissa projecting beyond his body, when he lowers it with both hands, as he advances against the enemy: hence, too, though the men of the second, third, and fourth rank will have their sarissae projecting farther beyond the front rank than the men of the fifth, yet even these last will have two cubits of their sarissae beyond the front rank; if only the phalanx is properly formed and the men close up properly both flank and rear, like the description in Homer:

So buckler pressed on buckler; helm on helm; And man on man; and waving horse-hair plumes In polished head-piece mingled, as they swayed In order: in such serried rank they stood. [Iliad, 13.131]
maybe you are right
i had the impression that the phalanx pikes wasn't the same length for each rank...


B. Harcoded?

[beatoangelico]

every men in a unit must have the same weapon. so yes it's hardcoded

[Watchman]

A. Well i red this: Many considerations may easily convince us that, if only the phalanx has its proper formation and strength, nothing can resist it face to face or withstand its charge. For as a man in close order of battle occupies a space of three feet; and as the length of the sarissae are sixteen cubits according to the original design, which has been reduced in practice to fourteen; and as of these fourteen four must be deducted, to allow for the weight in front; it follows clearly that each hoplite will have ten cubits of his sarissa projecting beyond his body, when he lowers it with both hands, as he advances against the enemy: hence, too, though the men of the second, third, and fourth rank will have their sarissae projecting farther beyond the front rank than the men of the fifth, yet even these last will have two cubits of their sarissae beyond the front rank; if only the phalanx is properly formed and the men close up properly both flank and rear, like the description in Homer:

So buckler pressed on buckler; helm on helm; And man on man; and waving horse-hair plumes In polished head-piece mingled, as they swayed In order: in such serried rank they stood. [Iliad, 13.131]
maybe you are right
i had the impression that the phalanx pikes wasn't the same length for each rank...What Homer describes isn't even the shield-wall phalanx of the Classical hoplites, nevermind now the Macedonian pike block. Three different animals.

Moreover, given that the for example the Diadochi specifically experimented with extra-long pikes to give their phalanxes and edge in the "push of pike", why in the world would the front-rankers have shorter ones ? The further away the pike-point reaches the enemy the better.

[The Wicked]

b) for certain it impossible. Really, really impossible. There is not even any suggestion that it could be possible.
a) I'm with watchman on this. Why would you even want to do this?

Foot
b) ok :2thumbsup:

a) well i was having some experiments with pikemen in mtw2 i remove phalanx and added shieldwall the result was an unbreakable pike line without gaps with the pikes stand out well almost equally but with a great visual and practical efect and i wandered if this was possible in rtw

[The Wicked]

well i was influenced by this picture

https://img352.imageshack.us/img352/8133/phalanx3bg5.jpg

[Watchman]

...which specifically displays the staggered "layers" of pike-tips of the successive ranks, so I'm not quite following you here... :beam:

[The Wicked]

Quoting my self :beam:


a) well i was having some experiments with pikemen in mtw2 i remove phalanx and added shieldwall the result was an unbreakable pike line without gaps with the pikes stand out well almost equally but with a great visual and practical efect and i wandered if this was possible in rtw

they looked like the pikemen in the picture (when they were fighting that is)

[Watchman]

Do make allowances for artistic license, composition etc. Anyway, the Roman writings on the phalanx make a note on the staggered spear-points as well, and a fair bit can be deduced from considerably later Europan and Japanese pike formations - there being only so many ways to use the damn flagpoles right.

Plus, shorter pikes for the front-rankers would be not only logistically annoying and generally pointless, but downright tactically stupid - when the whole point of the weapon and formation is to out-reach the enemy with serried ranks of long pointy things, so that he is held at bay and hopefully dispatched without ever having the opportunity to land a blow himself, shorter shafts would only be counterproductive.

[The Wicked]

Do make allowances for artistic license, composition etc. A


:oops: sorry :beam:

Hmm ok point taken :2thumbsup:

Subject coverred !

[Dhampir]

When the 13th US Infantry Regiment was reconstituted for the War of 1812 there was a shortage of muskets so their colonel, Zebulon Pike, reorganized them to fight in three ranks instead of two- the first two with muskets and the third with long spears which came to equal length with the front rank soldiers with bayonets at guard. If the second rank was at "thrust out" and held there (physically impossible), you'd have three ranks with the tips of their weapons all at the same distance from the front of the battalion.