View Full Version : Most powerful unit? The Spy
My newest game, I employed the spy to stunning results. I would send 10 spies into any province and bring about full scale revolts that often could not be surpressed by the owning faction.
I literally created rebellions, waited till the rebels took over, then took the province from the rebels. I didn't have to break any treaties or anger anyone.
If the province didn't fall to the rebels the first time, I just kept sending them back until the owning faction didn't have enough men to fight the rebels.
This is an incredibly powerful unit with no support costs.
Is this anywhere near being historically correct?
How can I lose with 10 spies against the world?
I was able to stop a full-scale invasion of my territory just by causing rebellions in the attacker's provinces. Vikings? Kataphraktoi? Royal Knights? Swiss Pikemen? All bums, compared to 10 spies invading a province.
Thoughts?
Unless someone can point to historical evidence to support a "spy rush" being used and being used successfully, it makes no sense to allow spies to be used in the current manner.
I mean, the way it is now, I don't ever have to declare war but just do a "spy rush", wait for the revolt, the owning faction retreats or dies, and I go back and grab the province right afterwards.
Here's another example:
I am playing the Byzantines. The Spanish are in a death struggle with the Almohads. The Almohads are about to deal the death blow to the Spanish after having taken all of the Iberian penninsula other than a couple of provinces.
I don't want to see the Almohads get that strong so I "spy rush" Granada, Cordoba, Algeria, and Morroco. Guess what? They all revolt, the Almohads lose control, and the Spanish go on the offensive.
Two turns later, the Iberian penniinsula is all Spanish controlled and the Spanish are about to deal the death blow to the Almohads!! This is nuts.
Can anyone support this spy rush historically?
they are a useful way to bring horde-like armies down to a managable level. a bit too powerful, maybe, but more than often they raise a peasant rebellion that barely hurts the enemy
of course after 15 years of constant peasant rebellions they take their toll...
Well, theoretically, it's much easier to counter a spy raid than a real army - your opponent only needs some spies on his own, or some assassins, or even emissaries and princesses to do counter-intelligence.
The only thing is, the AI doesn't do so http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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All is fair in love and war.
Well, maybe not in love.
RabidMonkey
09-20-2002, 08:26
Now why does this seem like another great reason for a multiplayer campaign!
It doesnt tend to work as well against a well-developed province though.
I tried this against a strong Byzantian province with borderforts etcetera, and although the loyalty dropped significantly, the byzantines just moved a few more troops in, lowered the taxrate, and killed off my spies about one per turn with their borderforts.
Spies are great if the target has just been Ecommunicated, then the rebels will be Catholic rebels, not peasants. Then you will see power return. This can break the enemy.
They are also great in provinces where the Lord religion is not the same as the majority of the population. Good rebellions.
And you might actually pave the way for a faction to reemerge.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
The object of this game is to have fun. If a tactic you employ is unbalanced and spoils the fun then why persist in using it? Be hard on yourself once in a while, and you'll have more fun.
Ii Naomasa
09-20-2002, 18:15
The sad thing is that even against a built up region with defenses, only one spy a turn can be killed...a spy you can readily replace if you want at the same rate...the cost of your opponent fighting off a rebellion every turn easily makes up for it.
I had tried this approach in my Byzantine campaign a week or so ago (it just seemed right to do it under the Byzantine flag for some reason) and was amazed at the results. Not only could I take whatever land I wanted without annoying anyone and only having to fight off a beat-up set of rebels, but the spies who didn't get elimintated were shortly bearing ranks of four or five on average...which suddenly made them great removers of generals I didn't want anymore. One of them promptly went around my kingdom framing all my generals who had developed bad vices...even rank six ones.
Perhaps there should be a point of diminishing returns on the effect spies have. After all, there is such a thing as over-doing attempts to subvert people....eventually a loyalist realizes what happens and often starts a counter-movement.
Or maybe the border forts should check against every spy (with a lesser chance for each one caught as the others go further underground (perhaps with an impact on their efforts)). It's really a shame that it's hard to use spies effectively singularly, but you can abuse them easily.
You can indeed lose more than one Spy each turn. I lost four in the same province one year three the next and retreated the last five after that.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
I just think this is way to powerful a tool and doesn't seem to carry any historical precedent. I'm going to have to look into a way to mod this feature.
Bob the Insane
09-20-2002, 20:56
I agree with Kraxis, I also have lost multiple spies in a single province in the same turn (came as a bit of a surprize..)..
Come to think of it, I have never had a warning message says my guys have caught a spy... I get lots of messages each turn about catching assassins, but none for spies...
Could it be because I am playing on normal??
Bob the Insane
09-20-2002, 21:10
I don't think spies are too powerful. The revolts you get in the game are not full scale popular revolts, but some other faction (with a leader) who wants to be incharge and believes that 'their time has come'. Whether they get this impression from religous issues, tax problems, because the local governor is a fool, or some spies have helped them out (think the CIA and South American rebels..).. Thus you only get a few hundred rebel troops and not an army of 100,000 peasants..
As the local populance probably couldn't care less who is ultimaly in charge, the loyalty rating can be considered to be the opinion of the local nobles (not your toadying and probably foreign regional governor..). So your spies only need to contact and convince the right nobles to act and you suddenly have a revolt on your hands... and 10 spies could probably do that in a year...
Bob the Insane:
I'm playing on Expert so I can't speak for playing Normal but when I cause revolts in foreign provinces using my spies, they are indeed FULL-SCALE REVOLTS. Sometimes thousands of soldiers show up and not just Peasants. I've seen some pretty strong units, including cavalry, among the rebel troops.
So, as I stated at the beginning, the Spy feature is extremely powerful since I have changed the course of military campaigns by using 10 spies at a time. There is no historical justification for how powerful this feature really is and it should be eliminated. Otherwise, I will conquer most of the world without breaking an alliance.
Beelzebub
09-20-2002, 22:29
What's wrong with you guys? If you hate this "tactic" so much, why do you use it then whine about how unfair it is? Just ignore it and don't send the 10 spies in. If you consider it lame and cheating, ok then, it's single player someone is only cheating themselves out of a more enjoyable game experience.
Bob the Insane
09-20-2002, 22:57
Quote By Paladin
I'm playing on Expert so I can't speak for playing Normal but when I cause revolts in foreign provinces using my spies, they are indeed FULL-SCALE REVOLTS. Sometimes thousands of soldiers show up and not just Peasants. I've seen some pretty strong units, including cavalry, among the rebel troops.
[/QUOTE]
A few thousand.... what kind of revolt is that... William Wallace took 10,000 men to the battle of Sterling Bridge.. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Quote Originally posted by Beelzebub:
What's wrong with you guys? If you hate this "tactic" so much, why do you use it then whine about how unfair it is? Just ignore it and don't send the 10 spies in. If you consider it lame and cheating, ok then, it's single player someone is only cheating themselves out of a more enjoyable game experience.[/QUOTE]
No one is whining except for you. We're discussing the most powerful unit in the game and if it historically accurate or not. If you don't care about this then move on and don't annoy those of us that are interested in discussing it.
And why do we use it? Because the computer uses it. That's why. So I'm going to have to find a way to remove it from the game completely so no one can use it.
How's that?
Rocket_Boy
09-21-2002, 07:44
Spies can be a bit of a doulbe edged sword. After raising a rebellion in Naples against the Byz's on about 15 consecutive turns (they had a rank 9 commander), I sent in a couple of units of knights to 'observe' the next battle between a very large peasent rebel army and the byz's forces.
Needless to say the peasants got ass whupped, but during the battle I got a chance to take on a unit of trebezoid archers all out on their own. Being a petty sort of ruler, my 'observers decided to take them out, charged them downhill and.. got their asses kicked! I could not f@%$#ing believe it.
When I checked out the Byz army afterwards I found that all units were valour 8 - 12, absolutely uber. Now I'm in the position where I have a mega army right next door that I practically created.
Morale of the story, take with those spies kids.
Guess what Paladin, spies are not all-powerful. They can be countered by lowering taxes, adding troops, and adding your OWN SPIES, EMISSARIES, PRINCESSES, AND ASSASSINS.
The only reason you think spies are sooooo powerful is that the AI is not good at countering them. Spies are not the most powerful unit in the game. Also, the computer rarely if ever uses multiple spies in your provinces. Rebellions happen for other reasons you probably just blame it on spies. Since you evidently do not have the skill to cope with conceptually modelled realistic espionage, then perhaps you should just use the already-available Mod that eliminates all non-military units.
Exactly, rocket_boy, if you feed a decent enemy army a peasant rebellion every turn, youll be giving that army incredible virtues, valour, and ranks. Not to mention the lucrative income from confiscated lands.
I bet paladin used spies effectively a few times and now he thinks the game is broken. What a newbie.
Also it is funny that paladin registered last month and he already has almost as many posts as I do. Kinda makes you think, doesnt it.
you also have to watch out for creating really powerful rebel armies. i let a group of 12 spies sit in a spanish province for too long, and when i went to acquire the territory, i was facing a full stack of elite units.
Quote Originally posted by Paladin:
[B]My newest game, I employed the spy to stunning results. I would send 10 spies into any province and bring about full scale revolts that often could not be surpressed by the owning faction.
B][/QUOTE]
i have been putting this to the test, i am afraid it is not as easy as you say it is...and just to be on the safe side i have 20 spies...yes, i manage to create a rebellion with ease, however the faction ruling that land always manage to suppress the rebellion...it litterally takes about 6-10 turns before it is in rebel hands then i can make a move with my emesarries. i have done this with at least 9 lands and all with the same results...i just think it takes to long to be of any real use. the only benefit is that i end up with about 20 odd spies all with about 6-7 valour and the other great thing is that rebel's are cheap to bribe. anyhoo i think i can achieve a faster result using force.... just my opinion. oh yeah the other downer is that the rebel army that become yours after the bribe have very low loyalties in most case's they are not loyal at all...therefore leading to disloyal rebelious generals, which means that i have to then deal with them when they turn agaisnt me...as far as i know so far the best way to up loyalty is to give out titles and even that is not enough...if there is another way to up loyaty easily please tell me as i don't know...because once i can increase the loyalty of these forces i have a very large army for a very cheap price...althougth the downer is that most of these rebel armies consist of peasants, in my opinion, not really worth keeping.
Quote Originally posted by Rocket_Boy:
Spies can be a bit of a doulbe edged sword. After raising a rebellion in Naples against the Byz's on about 15 consecutive turns (they had a rank 9 commander), I sent in a couple of units of knights to 'observe' the next battle between a very large peasent rebel army and the byz's forces.
Needless to say the peasants got ass whupped, but during the battle I got a chance to take on a unit of trebezoid archers all out on their own. Being a petty sort of ruler, my 'observers decided to take them out, charged them downhill and.. got their asses kicked! I could not f@%$#ing believe it.
When I checked out the Byz army afterwards I found that all units were valour 8 - 12, absolutely uber. Now I'm in the position where I have a mega army right next door that I practically created.
Morale of the story, take with those spies kids.[/QUOTE]
i think thats a real good point. i think paladin should think things through properly before posting and not relying on having taken over just a few lands with his idea (thats what i really believe happened...hehehe). no way can i imagine him employing this idea as the backbone to his strategy for completing this game all the way to the end.
Kalt:
Quote Guess what Paladin, spies are not all-powerful. They can be countered by lowering taxes, adding troops, and adding your OWN SPIES, EMISSARIES, PRINCESSES, AND ASSASSINS.
The only reason you think spies are sooooo powerful is that the AI is not good at countering them.[/QUOTE]
Obviously, since I already know that. But since I'm only playing against the computer, that's why I have to find a way to eliminate the spy feature otherwise I will and already have overwhelmed the computer. Isn't that clear already for you?
Quote Spies are not the most powerful unit in the game. Also, the computer rarely if ever uses multiple spies in your provinces. Rebellions happen for other reasons you probably just blame it on spies. Since you evidently do not have the skill to cope with conceptually modelled realistic espionage, then perhaps you should just use the already-available Mod that eliminates all non-military units.[/QUOTE]
Realistic? Are you that stupid? There's no realism in this that's why we're discussing it. Hey, if this doesn't interest you, then move on to another thread where your buffoonery is better appreciated.
Quote I bet paladin used spies effectively a few times and now he thinks the game is broken. What a newbie.[/QUOTE]
No, I've used them throughout a full campaign and I've won the game without declaring war even once. How's that for a newbie? Feeling stupid now? You should.
Quote Also it is funny that paladin registered last month and he already has almost as many posts as I do. Kinda makes you think, doesnt it.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it makes us think that you're a lazy little twit and quite brainless as well. Just because I have more to add to the game than you do doesn't mean you need feel jealous. Just accept the fact that you don't have the brain cells to discuss a topic with any depth.
Anyway, thanks for coming. I needed the laughs.
Paladin, you are a complete and total idiot. If I were to relieve myself on the ground, then walk through it, someone would be able to find more brain cells on the bottom of my shoe than you have in sum total.
#1 the only reason to eliminate the spy feature would be to stop the AI from using spies ON YOU. Since you agree to the incompetance of the AI, and agree that SPIES are easily defended against but for the stupidity fo the AI, THE WHY THE HELL DO YOU NEED TO REMOVE THEM. DO NOT USE THEM. You can defend against them easily, and since you wont use them, you wont have to watch how easily they can beat the AI in limited situations.
#2. conceptually modelled realistic espionage. This means that if a nation invests a great deal in a spy network, it can achieve results. History is replete with examples of how treachery and espionage accomplished things that massive armies never could. A spy unit could easily represent a team of spies of a cell of spies rather than a single man. That is where the word 'conceptuallly' comes in. Perhaps you should brush up on your english?
#3. ""No, I've used them throughout a full campaign and I've won the game without declaring war even once. How's that for a newbie?""
That is exactly what a newbie would do. Assuming I could even take you at your word, I know for a fact that a mere 10 spies would never cause a well-defended province to revolt, and even if you used 100 spies, you might never topple the same province, only make their general more powerful. Still, if you used assassins too or just had too much time on your hands it MIGHT be possible if you took hundreds of turns to do it. Big f*cking deal! Using spies to conquer would be _very_ _very_ slow.
#4 ""Just because I have more to add to the game""
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. It is called QUALITY vs QUANTITY. You have mastered quantity, which is probably a result of:
(A) You do not think before you post
(B) You are a loser with no social life and therefore can post 100+ in a month.
(C) You have developmental and/or psychological handicaps.
(D) You are stupid, ugly, smell bad, fat, grotesquely hairy yet unshaven (body hair), have a small (or no) penis, suffer from male pattern baldness, homosexual yet still a virgin, cross-eyed, and your mother (ugly too) dresses you funny.
I hope you take this little lesson in flaming to heart. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Some quotes from Paladin:
""This game has "retard bugs". That is, bugs that make the game retarded.""
""I demand that CA give me an apology for all the game testing I've been doing for them and I expect some kind of financial compensation for my time.""
""And since you had trouble reading and comprehending my post, who did you bribe to get your PhD? Or was it something you bought off the internet from one of those phoney colleges? Be honest now, we won't judge you."" THEN ---> ""I was going for the shock value at first but I didn't think people would get personal""
(/sarcasm on)
Yeah, Paladin, you have done SO MUCH to contribute to this game. Your posts have not merely consisted of ignorant personal flaming and knee-jerk stupidity. They have been filled with delightful intellectual revelations about the nature of MTW and how the developers could address the issues that concern you... I mean concern US ALL. You are so awesome, Paladin, so please let me start a fan club dedicated to you, and your fan club will then be dedicated to reminding everyone out there how very very important your input was in developing and patching MTW. Before Paladin came to these boards, we were subjected to the ludicrous irrational posts of the likes of Papewaio, Terazawa, 1Dread1laHill, MaygarsKhan, Shiro, etc. These posters never did anything but flame one another with racial epithets, but now all is well, because Paladin has come to save our sould and unite us with his compassionate, well-reasoned posts!
All hail Paladin! Paladin for President of the World! Yay!
(/sarcasm off)
Hey Kalt relax man, this can't be healthy (I'm imagining you with a bloodpreassure bursting the gauge http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif).
Just because Paladin can be pain in the *insert bodycavity of own choice here*, doesn't mean that you should go around calling him names. That way he will never come around and become someone pleasant right? And isn't it better to have him a good patron rather than a bad one or not at all?
Spies can be great, we all know this, the choice comes in if you want to play using them or not. It is free for all.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Kalt, you are out of order.
Kalt
Quote Paladin, you are a complete and total idiot. If I were to relieve myself on the ground, then walk through it, someone would be able to find more brain cells on the bottom of my shoe than you have in sum total.[/QUOTE]
Dude, that's cold and just wrong. I'm not going to waste time responding in kind to you. Look, I didn't ask for you to be hateful and angry and comment in this thread. If you have something to add, then do so but why do you feel the need to make this personal?
Quote #1 the only reason to eliminate the spy feature would be to stop the AI from using spies ON YOU. Since you agree to the incompetance of the AI, and agree that SPIES are easily defended against but for the stupidity fo the AI, THE WHY THE HELL DO YOU NEED TO REMOVE THEM. DO NOT USE THEM. You can defend against them easily, and since you wont use them, you wont have to watch how easily they can beat the AI in limited situations.[/QUOTE]
I thought I already made this clear. Because if I stop using them, then the AI can still use them. What does that mean? It means that I have to spend Florins to stop AI from doing something that I prohibit myself from doing. So the best thing would be is to eliminate the function for both the AI and myself.
Quote #2. conceptually modelled realistic espionage. This means that if a nation invests a great deal in a spy network, it can achieve results. History is replete with examples of how treachery and espionage accomplished things that massive armies never could. A spy unit could easily represent a team of spies of a cell of spies rather than a single man. That is where the word 'conceptuallly' comes in. Perhaps you should brush up on your english?[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you should brush up on your history because there are no examples in medieval history where you could destroy an entire thriving empire with a network of spies as I did to the Almohads.
As I mentioned, the Almohads were on top of the world. They had Spain down to two provinces. They had huge armies. Then I walked in with a handful of spies and raised rebellions in almost all of the provinces. I completely wrecked them. Can you cite historical data for such power?
Quote #3. ""No, I've used them throughout a full campaign and I've won the game without declaring war even once. How's that for a newbie?""
That is exactly what a newbie would do. Assuming I could even take you at your word, I know for a fact that a mere 10 spies would never cause a well-defended province to revolt, and even if you used 100 spies, you might never topple the same province, only make their general more powerful. Still, if you used assassins too or just had too much time on your hands it MIGHT be possible if you took hundreds of turns to do it. Big f*cking deal! Using spies to conquer would be _very_ _very_ slow.[/QUOTE]
You need to get to know this game a bit better. Here's why: early on, there are very few fortifications. So I took advantage of the situation by building spies right away. Then I proceeded to march them around all over the board causing random rebellions. I tore all the opposing factions to pieces.
Then, as time went on, I conquered the rebels at my leisure, and as for the others, I waited for them to declare war on me. Bara-bing-bara-boom!! I win. Is that more clear now?
Quote #4 ""Just because I have more to add to the game""
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. It is called QUALITY vs QUANTITY. You have mastered quantity, which is probably a result of:
(A) You do not think before you post
(B) You are a loser with no social life and therefore can post 100+ in a month.
(C) You have developmental and/or psychological handicaps.
(D) You are stupid, ugly, smell bad, fat, grotesquely hairy yet unshaven (body hair), have a small (or no) penis, suffer from male pattern baldness, homosexual yet still a virgin, cross-eyed, and your mother (ugly too) dresses you funny.[/QUOTE]
Dude, that's way over the top. The fun in playful flaming each other is only such that it's witty, not grotesquely rude. You clearly fail to see the nuance of the two.
Quote I hope you take this little lesson in flaming to heart.[/QUOTE]
At least I have a heart.
Quote (/sarcasm on)
Yeah, Paladin, you have done SO MUCH to contribute to this game. Your posts have not merely consisted of ignorant personal flaming and knee-jerk stupidity. They have been filled with delightful intellectual revelations about the nature of MTW and how the developers could address the issues that concern you... I mean concern US ALL. You are so awesome, Paladin, so please let me start a fan club dedicated to you, and your fan club will then be dedicated to reminding everyone out there how very very important your input was in developing and patching MTW. Before Paladin came to these boards, we were subjected to the ludicrous irrational posts of the likes of Papewaio, Terazawa, 1Dread1laHill, MaygarsKhan, Shiro, etc. These posters never did anything but flame one another with racial epithets, but now all is well, because Paladin has come to save our sould and unite us with his compassionate, well-reasoned posts!
All hail Paladin! Paladin for President of the World! Yay!
(/sarcasm off)[/QUOTE]
The quotes you posted were either jokes or were a response to personal insults aimed at me that I suffered without provocation. The problem is that you misunderstood their use in each case.
Your hate-filled post is your freebie. How about this idea: Let's just agree not to address each other so we can avoid ruining other people's experience in these forums. I think that would be an appropriate way to handle our differences. OK?
The whole concept of Medieval: Total War is "off" as far as history is concerned. The "Nation State" was not the dominant political entity then that it is today. So a game that attempts to use modern "nations" in a medieval context is, IMHO, flawed as history.
But it's fun! I try to ignore the "history" and just play it. Even if you get rid of the spies you still have a British or French or German Empire WAY to early in history. It's just incorrect.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Soapyfrog
09-23-2002, 23:43
Paladin's right, the spy rush strategy works VERY WELL.
I used the same strtegy to carve down an Almohad empire that consisted of 50% of the map (North africa, Spain, France, half of Germany, half of Italy).
Mind you, you need to tech up to spies in a few provinces to really keep it going, so basically you can kick off your spy campaign somewhere between 1150 and 1200 in the Early game. Alliances are very valuable with this strategy. It is much more beneficial to be allied with someone you are spy rushing than not (see my "With allies like me, who needs enemies?" post).
99% of the time you will fight rebels, 80% of those times you'll have an allied army to do all the dirty work.
To get a proper spy campaign going you have to be able to replace 2 or 3 spies lost per turn and hopefully increase your numbers as well. Priests are incredibly valuable in conjunction with this strategy.
You could use this strategy in conjunction with aggressive conquest, but I prefer to remain allied with (almost) everyone so as to keep the trade income flowing in and maximum amphibious mobility.
I gotta give you guys pops for this... the Spy trick works great when you're Germany and constantly under threat of being excommunicated for farting too close to a poor innocent province nearby.
Soapyfrog
09-23-2002, 23:53
Oh yeah... AI is useless at using spies, offensively or defensively. The AI never concentrates his spies, and usually takes insufficient precautions in defence.
So there is no real danger of the AI doing this.
Point being the AI should judge "spy-rushing" as aggressive action and counter it militarily (by attacking the suspected source of the spies) and with strategic units.
dancho, I agree that MTW is not totally right on the mark in the historical aspect but it does a great job of being the closest thing to it (except for the spy thing).
The names for the factions are just easy references for the factions themselves. They are not meant to be the actual names of the empires.
For example, yes, there was no German empire in that period but there was a HRE and as such, it is a valid faction in this game.
The only one that is difficult to represent is the Italian faction which was really a collection of City-States that were always rivals and sometimes combatants. To make it historically correct, Venice should be an empire and Genoa should be an empire. I tired doing that but I guess there's no way to modify that from the End-User side of it.
Also, you can try the following if you're interested in being historically correct in 1092 A.D.:
http://home.pacbell.net/jpaladin/1092Early.zip
The game is designed from the following map:
http://www.croatianmall.com/lupic/belmonte/middle_ages/a1092eu.gif
Please check out and tell me what you think. Thank you. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
spies are great defensive units, too. playing a the danes i hold the 'original' three provinces, ireland, and the $cash money$ provinces of N. Africa. These are all chokepoint provinces, unless the AI used amphibious attacks.
so i keep spies in the nearest enemy territory -- no matter who takes that province, rebellions immediately crop up so they (can't) attack me w/o losing the province or dividing their force (which they haven't).
i have also managed to take 50% of spain without attacking any faction but rebels :]
of course, i'm nearing the 300 year point (using 16ad mod :P) so it wouldn't be too viable in a shorter game.
"""Dude, that's cold and just wrong. I'm not going to waste time responding in kind to you. Look, I didn't ask for you to be hateful and angry and comment in this thread. If you have something to add, then do so but why do you feel the need to make this personal?"""
If you can't take it, don't dish it out. If anyone else thinks I was harsh, reference Paladins post that I was responding to, you'll find it has no lack of personal attacks and insults. awwwww pooor paladin heh
If the flaming doesn't stop, I will close this thread! Watch it, boys!
Cut it out Kalt! Must mention Paladin too just to be fair...
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"Everything Shiro said sounds good to me."
-Solypsist
[This message has been edited by Shiro (edited 09-23-2002).]
Soapyfrog:
Quote Paladin's right, the spy rush strategy works VERY WELL.
I used the same strtegy to carve down an Almohad empire that consisted of 50% of the map (North africa, Spain, France, half of Germany, half of Italy).[/QUOTE]
Thanks, and EXACTLY!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote Mind you, you need to tech up to spies in a few provinces to really keep it going, so basically you can kick off your spy campaign somewhere between 1150 and 1200 in the Early game. Alliances are very valuable with this strategy. It is much more beneficial to be allied with someone you are spy rushing than not (see my "With allies like me, who needs enemies?" post).[/QUOTE]
Exactly, but I was able to use spies within a few short turns as the Byzantines. I built them right away. That way I caused plenty of rebellions to have to quell.
Quote To get a proper spy campaign going you have to be able to replace 2 or 3 spies lost per turn and hopefully increase your numbers as well. Priests are incredibly valuable in conjunction with this strategy.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
Quote You could use this strategy in conjunction with aggressive conquest, but I prefer to remain allied with (almost) everyone so as to keep the trade income flowing in and maximum amphibious mobility.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely.
Quote Oh yeah... AI is useless at using spies, offensively or defensively. The AI never concentrates his spies, and usually takes insufficient precautions in defence.
So there is no real danger of the AI doing this.[/QUOTE]
I'm not so sure about this. In a previous game, I never used one single watch border fort and I recall seeing almost 200% loyalty in provinces, religion was the same as my king, and there was no war, yet for some mysterious reason, I had rebellions. Sounds like the AI using spies against me.
Quote Point being the AI should judge "spy-rushing" as aggressive action and counter it militarily (by attacking the suspected source of the spies) and with strategic units.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely, I agree.
Kalt
Quote If you can't take it, don't dish it out. If anyone else thinks I was harsh, reference Paladins post that I was responding to, you'll find it has no lack of personal attacks and insults. awwwww pooor paladin heh[/QUOTE]
I can take anything someone of your ilk can dish out. But as a courtesy to other people, I would rather not waste valuable space going on and on with you and your personal issues. And if you consider that my comments outside of this thread were either meant in jest or in response to personal attacks aimed at me, your argument, as usual, has no merit.
Kalt -
I've been in email contact with Paladin[/i] but since I don't have your email on hand I'll post some thoughts here. Any flaming is just not tolerated. This is a warning. More warnings and I can assure you, you will get the boot.
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"Everything Shiro said sounds good to me."
-Solypsist
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